HEC Semi-Final Toulon v Munster, Stade Velodrome, Marseille

by KiaRose Tue 22 Apr 2014, 12:32 pm

First topic message reminder :

KO 16.30 (local time; 15.30 YTC) Sunday April 27th. Yet another Day of Destiny for Munster Rugby.

So far the only participants we know for definite are
Referee: Wayne Barnes

ARs: JP Doyle; Luke Pearce

TMO: Graham Hughes.

All the officials are from England.

Friday 25th - edited with team announcements.

Toulon
Delon Armitage;
Drew Mitchell, Mathieu Bastareaud, Matt Giteau, Bryan Habana;
Jonny Wilkinson (c), Sebastien Tillous-Borde;
Xavier Chiocci, Craig Burden, Carl Hayman,
Danie Rossouw, Jocelino Suta,
Juan Smith, Juan Fernandez Lobbe, Steffon Armitage.
Remplaçants : Jean-Charles Orioli, Alexandre Menini, Martin Castrogiovanni, Virgile Bruni, David Smith, Maxime Mermoz, Michael Claassens, Konstantine Mikautadze.

Munster
Felix Jones;
Keith Earls, Casey Laulala, James Downey, Simon Zebo;
Ian Keatley, Conor Murray;
Dave Kilcoyne, Damien Varley Capt., BJ Botha;
Dave Foley, Paul O'Connell;
CJ Stander, Sean Dougall, James Coughlan.
Replacements: Duncan Casey, James Cronin, John Ryan, Donncha O'Callaghan, Tommy O'Donnell, Duncan Williams, JJ Hanrahan, Denis Hurley.

As my stomach is already churning when I think of Sunday, I thought I would start the ball rolling on the topic.

Munster Abú

by ME-109 Sun 27 Apr 2014, 7:26 pm

Notch wrote:Well you couldn't argue with Trimbles form either Kia, I suspect we'll see a Trimble and Bowe combination; the most in-form winger and the most experienced. But if either one is unavailable I would go with Zebo and he's definitely ahead of Dave Kearney and Fergus McFadden.

I don't think there is any evidence at all for all the other things you say. I think thats all based on heavy assumptions with no real insight into whats going on. It's all based on your own suppositions and inferences and not very much actual evidence. As is the argument Zebo 'disrespects' coaches and thats why he was on the outside or whatever other nonsense. I haven't seen any evidence of Schmidt trying to curb players natural instincts in his coaching career whatsoever. His sides have always played attacking, adventurous rugby and the longer we've had him as coach the more and more openly we've played.

Today Zebo stepped up a gear, it was a seasons best performance, and that should catch the eye of the coaches. At the start of the Six Nations he had barely played and then it becomes a question of continuity and the guys in the team are doing well. I don't think there is anything negative at all between Schmidt and Zebo. I think thats all just chinese whispers with nothing behind it. Typical Irish rugby rumour mill.

Dont disagree about Trimble not so sure about Bowe...also today was a good game by Zebo but nothing different to his previous games.

Anyhow...I agree with Kia regarding what she said about the automatons. Schmidt goes into incredible detail on how he wants the game played. It worked well with a Leinster heavy squad. However EOS was a bit like that and had a limited squad and ultimately that didnt work out. Will be interesting if Schmidt actually brings players through to have a more in depth squad and not have players warming the bench or getting a couple of minutes as he did in the 6ns. Argentina will be interesting.

On one note I couldnt give a fig if Zebo is picked or not for Ireland. Once he is doing it for us thats fine with me.

by Sin é Sun 27 Apr 2014, 7:29 pm

Notch, Schmidt is a controlling coach. He plays a very structured game. Schmidt V Carlos Spencer didn't end well for Spencer.

He doesn't like Madigan either because he is a bit unpredictable for him.

by LeinsterFan4life Sun 27 Apr 2014, 7:29 pm

You should care because If Zebo isn't get picked for Ireland there is nothing stopping him from going to France in a few years time

by Sin é Sun 27 Apr 2014, 7:38 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:You should care because If Zebo isn't get picked for Ireland there is nothing stopping him from going to France in a few years time

Zebo seems to be very family orientated and there is really a very tight group developing in Munster that would maybe make it difficult for him to go to France. He certainly isn't going to get picked for Ireland if he moves to France.

by ME-109 Sun 27 Apr 2014, 7:39 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:You should care because If Zebo isn't get picked for Ireland there is nothing stopping him from going to France in a few years time

Quite possible...but Zebo is Cork through and through (regardless of the background) and we dont ever leave De Banks to go anywhere willingly...although if there are a lot of shekels involved... Whistle

by formerly known as Sam Sun 27 Apr 2014, 7:39 pm

Just watched this on replay. A game to miss if anybody is thinking of doing likewise. First half was truly dire and the only moment of note was the football antics of Murray rolling around like he'd been shot in order to get the Lobbe YC.

Second half barely any better. Distinct lack of tactical nous and attacking flair from both teams. I wanted to see a classic but this certainly wasn't it. The skill levels were so low that the Sarries vs Clermont game was actually a far better watch.

Hope to see POC get another cracking at it next season as a Munster team with him in it is normally one to watch in the knock out stages. Munster have got to bring their wide men into play far more or recruit better centres if they are going to continue to develop the wide game.

by ME-109 Sun 27 Apr 2014, 7:42 pm

We only gave away 8 penalties again...probably six in the first half was it and the annoying thing is they were all really stupid ones.

by doctor_grey Sun 27 Apr 2014, 8:14 pm

Sin é wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:You should care because If Zebo isn't get picked for Ireland there is nothing stopping him from going to France in a few years time

Zebo seems to be very family orientated and there is really a very tight group developing in Munster that would maybe make it difficult for him to go to France. He certainly isn't going to get picked for Ireland if he moves to France.

Granted when I see Zebo it's from an outside perspective. But the player I see is a very good one:
I see him as a player to game plan against. He has serious speed and tracks the ball very well. His speed is a real wild card and he is not afraid to strike from anywhere. From what I see, there isn't anyone else in that Munster squad who could have had a ghost of a chance to make that cover tackle on Armitage. Of all the Ireland backs he worries me the most because of his speed, quick reactions, and strike-ability. In addition, he projects a very positive attidude and unlike many players today, he really shows he is enjoying himself whilst playing. A real role model.

Only things I don't like about him is he isn't playing for England and he isn't playing for Saints!

So from an English perspective, please don't pick him. But for the love of Rugby, don't let him go to France (and sign for Toulon?).

by **Notch** Sun 27 Apr 2014, 8:17 pm

Sin é wrote:Notch, Schmidt is a controlling coach. He plays a very structured game. Schmidt V Carlos Spencer didn't end well for Spencer.

He doesn't like Madigan either because he is a bit unpredictable for him.

Hmm, I've seen no evidence that he doesn't like Madigan at all. For Leinster or Ireland. Schmidt is the guy who Madigan owes most of the chances he's had in his career too.

It's not so long ago people were grousing about him bringing Madigan onto the bench for the final round of the Six Nations.

by **profitius** Sun 27 Apr 2014, 8:31 pm

Surprised noone has mentioned Keatley. Munsters best player by a mile. He has performed well in the big games this season.

by quinsforever Sun 27 Apr 2014, 8:34 pm

Maybe u should have a Ireland team thread on the international section?

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 27 Apr 2014, 8:44 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:
Nachos Jones wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:

The team were awful against Glasgow don't think Trimble was.

The difference is Zebo has been in and out all season whereas Trimble has been excellent - which is why he may well win the Irish player of the year.
The reality is Zebo is, at best, 4th in the pecking order.
He needs a number of stand out games to go up that pecking order - one is start but only that.
If selected that starts with the summer tour

Sorry Geoff but that is really incorrect. Zebo is the best winger Ireland have right now, excellent attack and defence. I am not sure what more he has to prove to be honest.

Joe Schmidt doesn't agree with you

I think Sin e comment is a fair point.
Look I think Zebo is an excellent player but whether you agree with it or not he is not top of Schmidt list.
I do hope he goes on tour and proves himself

To be fair Geoff, Zebo has actually been very consistent since returning from injury and has scored virtually every game since and set up many more. He is certainly not 4th choice and if he is, he shouldn't be.

If we are judging it on form, he is behind Trimble. Bowe is only returning from injury (but has looked very sharp).

by theslosty Sun 27 Apr 2014, 8:48 pm

There's not much between Trimble, Bowe, Zebo, Earls and Fitz (when fit) really.

by BlueMuff Sun 27 Apr 2014, 9:00 pm

Too gutted to make any meaningful contribution but as ever am 7 foot tall to be a Munster rugby supporter

by ME-109 Sun 27 Apr 2014, 9:01 pm

profitius wrote:Surprised noone has mentioned Keatley. Munsters best player by a mile. He has performed well in the big games this season.

Had a good game but made a couple of mistakes fell of tackles and might have made better decisions but was good overall....er best player might be a little stretch Prof but whatever your having yourself.

by ME-109 Sun 27 Apr 2014, 11:12 pm

Anyhow...moving forward...Foley has no excuses really. Penney has brought us forward in a big way and it is well set up to kick on.

Biggest difference today was the centre partnership. In 06 we had Halstadt and Kelly and in 08 was even better with Mafi and Tipoki - Tipoki was an immense player for us. Foley needs to recruit effectively or develop some of the players coming through..other concern is tight head. BJ is finishing up and Archer has a disk issue.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon 28 Apr 2014, 12:00 am

ME-109 wrote:Anyhow...moving forward...Foley has no excuses really. Penney has brought us forward in a big way and it is well set up to kick on.

Biggest difference today was the centre partnership. In 06 we had Halstadt and Kelly and in 08 was even better with Mafi and Tipoki - Tipoki was an immense player for us. Foley needs to recruit effectively or develop some of the players coming through..other concern is tight head. BJ is finishing up and Archer has a disk issue.

Its gonna be hard to find good players to bring in just before a World cup that haven;t already been swept up by the top14 and AP. Its probably time the scouts start looking in the PIs and North America for talent.

by KiaRose Mon 28 Apr 2014, 12:01 am

Munster never actually managed to replace Tipoki. Mafi was only half the player after Rua retired. Centre partnership, as you say ME, has been a major weakness for a few years and Downey and Laulala have not solved it.

But, yes, Penney leaves a better team with better structures than he inherited. Shame he didn't get at least another year but, heck c'est la vie.

Onwards and upwards.

by Thomond Mon 28 Apr 2014, 12:01 am

Keatley was magnificent today, easily one of out best. Ill-discipline and some dumb moments trying to play a bit too much of the rugby (we didn't kick often enough for me) cost us big time. It was a gut wrenching loss. To show the gumption to comeback from 9 points down having showed nothing but poor rugby takes a certain something. Not a lot went right in the first half, lot of uncharacteristic errors, guys like Coughlan and Stander went a ways to making it up in the second though.

As for Zebo, if we're talking about him not showing it in every game well that's a load of Love sacks, and not really important. Sure Leinster's lads didn't show up for the big game this year but half of them will still merit getting picked. Defended very well, put some decent hits in at kickoffs. he is never going to blow guys on their arse, not that type of winger but he will defend, and defend well.

We're losing Laulala and Downey so a new centre partnership is needed. I like Dineen but we haven't seen enough of him, they went after Aki, but there doesn't seem to be anyone else looked at, or none I've heard of (obviously if you have let us know).

Penney has made these guys, heroes, time for Foley to make them "lidginds". Rob's done a tremendous job and left the side in great shape.

by ME-109 Mon 28 Apr 2014, 12:51 am

Haven't a clue about who is being talked to or looked at. Sin E might have a better idea

by Sin é Mon 28 Apr 2014, 1:07 am

ME-109 wrote:Haven't a clue about who is being talked to or looked at. Sin E might have a better idea

I don't know if anyone is being looked at and according to Bernard Jackman last week, there are no centres available.

Thomond, in fairness to Foley 'inheriting' Penney's good work (I think Penney has been great for Munster), but Foley has been coaching most this team since they were 18 when he retired first. He brought them to their first B&I Final (captained by POM).

I think Penney has been great. He has managed Keatley in particular very well.

Anyone see the photo on twitter of Andrew Conway embracing Zebo who was nearly in tears. This is some squad we are building. They will die for each other.

As an aside - anyone hear what Penney said before the match in interview about ROG being at the hotel and reintegrated with the group last night. Though it a funny expression. Is ROG coming back to Munster next season, I wonder.

by ME-109 Mon 28 Apr 2014, 9:52 am

Sin é wrote:
ME-109 wrote:Haven't a clue about who is being talked to or looked at. Sin E might have a better idea

I don't know if anyone is being looked at and according to Bernard Jackman last week, there are no centres available.

Thomond, in fairness to Foley 'inheriting' Penney's good work (I think Penney has been great for Munster), but Foley has been coaching most this team since they were 18 when he retired first. He brought them to their first B&I Final (captained by POM).

I think Penney has been great. He has managed Keatley in particular very well.

Anyone see the photo on twitter of Andrew Conway embracing Zebo who was nearly in tears. This is some squad we are building. They will die for each other.

As an aside - anyone hear what Penney said before the match in interview about ROG being at the hotel and reintegrated with the group last night. Though it a funny expression. Is ROG coming back to Munster next season, I wonder.

Saw the interview with Sky. I think he was just saying ROG was staying in the same hotel and was around encouraging the lads etc...wouldnt read much into it, just a helping hand from ROG I think.

Zebo and Keatley were absolutely gutted during the Sky interview....

by MunsterMac Mon 28 Apr 2014, 10:16 am

Munster never actually managed to replace Tipoki

Never a truer word.

I was sitting not 30 yards from him when he got injured and none of us realised the significance of it at the time.

A world class 13 must be a priority for Foley.

by ME-109 Mon 28 Apr 2014, 10:22 am

Interested to see on the fans website mixed reports concerning Toulon supporters. Have heard the same from some friends returning. A lot of taunting/provocation and even a report of a fight or two which would be very sad.

On the other hand a lot of people saying the Toulon supporters were great.

by Sin é Mon 28 Apr 2014, 10:31 am

MunsterMac wrote:
Munster never actually managed to replace Tipoki

Never a truer word.

I was sitting not 30 yards from him when he got injured and none of us realised the significance of it at the time.

A world class 13 must be a priority for Foley.

Barry Murphy's enforced retirement through injury was a bigger loss to Munster Rugby.

by whocares Mon 28 Apr 2014, 10:38 am

Toulon folks can be a bit brash and mouthy as people from the south east of France tend sometime to be. they have a bad rep over here as well and are very paranoid as a result. the majority are fine though (the ones travelling for instance) but this game (being held in Marseilles) might have attracted all sort of types.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 28 Apr 2014, 10:50 am

They are passionate though.

My trip to Toulon last year beat any away trip I have ever made, mainly because of the fans. I am told Clermont this year was equally good, but could not make that trip.

by Pete330v2 Mon 28 Apr 2014, 11:08 am

I am gutted for you Munster guys, actually I am just plan gutted there won't be an Irish side in the final. It was an ammense effort from the lads but just fell short of the star-studded, 'money's no object' Toulon.
On the Zebo debate I reckon he's looking a like a good bet to nail the Irish shirt should he continue the form he's showing. Trimble is definately the form Irish winger right now but if Zebo isn't back in an Irish side ASAP it will be madness. The guy is class and will get even better the more experience he gets internationally.
Earls is a frustration isn't he? We know the skills and abilities he has yet he has such game changing brain farts and errors like yesterday's and gives the haters ammunition. I wish he would get his mojo back because I always thought he could be a 'ligind'.

Anyways, bring on the pro12 battle, something we Irish are good at dominating Smile

by MunsterMac Mon 28 Apr 2014, 12:14 pm

Barry Murphy's enforced retirement through injury was a bigger loss to Munster Rugby.

Can't agree Sin.

Topoki was the finished article and was the lynch-pin of the Munster backline as was proven when he left.

Murphy had enormous potential and could have gone on to have a great career not just for Munster but also for Ireland but ultimately that potential never had a chance to mature or be realised.

by Sin é Mon 28 Apr 2014, 12:22 pm

MunsterMac wrote:
Barry Murphy's enforced retirement through injury was a bigger loss to Munster Rugby.

Can't agree Sin.

Topoki was the finished article and was the lynch-pin of the Munster backline as was proven when he left.

Murphy had enormous potential and could have gone on to have a great career not just for Munster but also for Ireland but ultimately that potential never had a chance to mature or be realised.

He was a bigger loss in the sense that he would be in his prime now and Munster would have had a steady centre partnership for the last 5/6 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvhjNMPOsOA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQKzlTTlegE

by BlueMuff Mon 28 Apr 2014, 12:28 pm

Now a day on here are my thoughts for what it's worth

1. Toulon deserved winners. You can't give a team with their class a soft soft 9 point lead

2. What a spirited and proud fight back and if the ball didn't fall off the tea would could have gone into the lead.

3. Zebo was outstanding just everything he did was superb. Chase down from restarts tackles line breaks scored try and pull off one of the best try saving tackles I've ever seen! Quiet simply he is a class act and left habana for dead.

4. Keatley has developed into a 10 that could steer us to a hc and in my mind is the clear back up to sexton!

5 James coughlan what a servant of Munster rugby a true unsung hero up there with the best irish player never to be capped

6. Wrong decision not to take 3 points with 9 minutes to go.

7 the 16th man proved once again the best travelling fans in the world bar none!

Down but not out the hunger burns strong in Munster new centres and we will be back next year and yes it's all about the HC

by Golden Mon 28 Apr 2014, 1:01 pm

Is Downey off next year too?

So your looking for a new 12 and 13 I'd think. Anyone good in the academy?

Players who can or have played centre: Earls, Van de Heever, Dineen, Hurley and Keatley or JJ (but theyll most likely be starting and covering 10).

Slim pickings there. Not an established 12 or 13 in the bunch, Earls coming closest.

by brennomac Mon 28 Apr 2014, 1:07 pm

4. Keatley has developed into a 10 that could steer us to a hc and in my mind is the clear back up to sexton!

Keatley has certainly moved up the pecking order and is certainly ahead of Madigan in the running as the number two to Sexton. That said Jackson has had a good season too so maybe it's not clear cut.

Lots of strength at 10 with Sexton, Jackson, Keatley, Madigan and JJ in the wings - would be nice if we had the same choice at 12 and 13.

by MunsterMac Mon 28 Apr 2014, 1:39 pm

6. Wrong decision not to take 3 points with 9 minutes to go.

In hind sight possibly but you know what they say about hindsight.

I think they were right to go for the corner for 2 reasons.

Firstly because they have a superb and feared maul and they will always back themselves in those circumstances.

But just as important in my opinion is the fact that if they took the 3 points they would still have been 2 points down and they would be giving Toulon a kick off from the halfway line and Toulon are more than capable of kicking deep into Munster's 22 and keeping them there for the remaining 7 or 8 minutes or until they got a score themselves.

My gut reaction at the time was that it was the right call.

You're right about the ball falling off the tee though. Small margins eh.

by HammerofThunor Mon 28 Apr 2014, 1:45 pm

MunsterMac wrote:
6. Wrong decision not to take 3 points with 9 minutes to go.

In hind sight possibly but you know what they say about hindsight.

I think they were right to go for the corner for 2 reasons.

Firstly because they have a superb and feared maul and they will always back themselves in those circumstances.

But just as important in my opinion is the fact that if they took the 3 points they would still have been 2 points down and they would be giving Toulon a kick off from the halfway line and Toulon are more than capable of kicking deep into Munster's 22 and keeping them there for the remaining 7 or 8 minutes or until they got a score themselves.

My gut reaction at the time was that it was the right call.

You're right about the ball falling off the tee though. Small margins eh.

I thought it was the wrong call and said it at the time. If they had got the try Toulon would have been within 2 points (assuming the conversion went over) anyway so would have lost with a kick. If they failed the try they would still be 5 points off. If they had made the kick they would have been a kick away from winning. So the Toulon kickoff could have still cost them the game if they gave away a penalty.

by Scrumpy Thu 01 May 2014, 11:48 am

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http://www.petitions24.com/move_the_2014_amlin_challenge_cup_to_a_bigger_venue

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