The Official Irish Provinces Rugby Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Fans of Ulster, Leinster, Munster and Connacht unite! A place is here to talk of your teams.

Discuss the Pro12 run-in, the provinces prospects in Europe next season, the tour to Argentina and why we're generally just the best. I mean, just how great are we? Lets talk about that.

But mainly whatever feckin' thing comes into your head!

[Sin é]

Munster Rugby didn't vote Penney coach of the year (though I do think he is a very good coach).

I'm not so sure.

Realistically our passing, handling and back play is as poor now as it was 2 years ago.

It occurred to me Saturday night that if there'a a sharp, incisive approach that can be taken to a move or a cumbersome, blunt one Munster always seem to manage the latter.

And a lot of the young players that have come through under Penny in the last 2 years would have come through regardless of who was in charge.

Like I said I'm not sure what Penny's legacy will be to be honest.

Passing, handling is down to the Skills coach.

Not sure all those players would have come true on their own. That team is still very young and inexperienced. I think he was excellent the way he promoted POM to Club Captain and players like Ian Keatley has flourished while he still kept JJ ticking over. I think there is a great team spirit there and I am surprised that Munster have made 2 H Cup semis with that team of young players who have really shown up when travelling to France. Look at the player Dougall & CJ have turned into, not to mention Dave Foley, Killer, Cronin, Murray, Casey etc.

I think they have a year or two to go before becoming totally consistent, but its not like our previous great team used to bother themselves too much about the Pro12. And can you hardly blame them when you think the damage that the Welsh have done to the image of the Pro12 with their continually talking it down and putting in rubbish performances this year.

I also think that both Leinster & Ulster have had a bit of time to get over their European disappointment.

Someone else said to me and I'm half inclined to believe them that Munster used last week as a training session because they tried to play an impossible passing game in poor conditions and maybe trying to keep injuries down and be as fresh as possible for a 6 day turnaround.

[ME-109]

I think you are being exceedingly generous Sin.

[Sin é]

I don't expect this Munster team to win a trophy for another 2 years or so. As far as I'm concerned, I think they have been over achieving.

[Notch]

It is true that if the players had done their jobs we wouldn't be having this conversation. It was a complacent team against a highly motivated team and that made up for the difference in class. But maybe the coaches didn't take Ulster seriously in that they didn't game plan for our weaknesses and exploit them as much as they could/should have.

I'm very proud of Ulster of course, absolutely delighted with the result, but I'm realistic enough to know that there is no way that team should have won on paper. Better Ulster teams have been thrashed by Munster teams that are no stronger than the one we faced over the years.

[profitius]

What Penney has done is introduce a whole new way of playing. That should stand to the players in the long run.

Penney got to 2 HEC semi finals and was just terribly unlucky to be drawn away twice. If they were home draws you'd think they'd at least have won one.

Munsters problem is their old achillies heel - the centers. Downey has no talent and Lualala is a headless chicken. Before him we had another headless chicken in Mafi. At least now theres hope with the new signing.

Against Ulster I wouldn't blame Penney one bit. How could anyone predict Munster would be THAT bad. Sure, they could have played a tighter game but they played the same gameplan that put 50 on Edinburgh a few days before. A major part of the problem IMO was the awards night in midweek. It takes away players concentration from the league.

Having said that it could be a good result for Munster (and Ulster). It gives Ulster confidence and I'd imagine there will be a few players looking to make amends against Glasgow.

[Notch]

We had an awards night too!

[ME-109]

My take on this is that it doesnt matter that it was a dead rubber, it doesnt matter that it was against a second string Ulster team. It doesnt matter that they had awards ceremonies during the week, It does matter if the team were using it as a training ground exercise as per Sin É, it does matter if they were complacent.

Most importantly was that there were close to 16K paying punters who paid to see a load of dross. There is a minimum standard and expectation. If they arent good enough then fine if they put an effort in, but the same team (more or less)hammers Toulouse, and runs Toulon close. I mean what are they trying to do lose support?

Maybe they have been overachieving as per Sin É but I dont believe its an excuse in a game like last Saturday.

[Notch]

I have to agree with you DOD, if the roles were reversed I would be furious.

The squad for Argentina will be announced in the coming week btw. An imperfect final audition for some of the Munster lads but Schmidt has been heard to muse of whether the Pro12 is of a high enough intensity to judge players and that was as poor a game as you could ever expect between two sides in the top four so maybe it won't mean very much in that regard either.

Actually the timing of this announcement could be perfect for Munster as if they do have less representation in the touring squad than Ulster and Leinster it will activate the bitterness chip, which is needed to engage Ligind mode. 'Let's go and win the Pro12 to stick it to Uncle Joe'  

[ME-109]

Ligind status me boll.x. Time to grow up more like. It is turning into a good old John B Keane tragi/comedy Munster style.

[Pete330v2]

"activate the bitterness chip, which is needed to engage Ligind mode"

I don't think I've laughed as much at 606 in it's lifetime, I do love that quote and shall be making use of it in company to appear witty

I do think Munster were caught out the same way we were caught out against Cardiff. Complacency took over when there was an early score and sometimes it's a hard place to get out of when you're concentrating on what's happening in front of you. Ulster will definately benefit from the confidence boost within the squad but realism won't let them get ahead of themselves. Munster will probably feel they've had a much needed kick in the backside and nobody wants to face a wounded Munster with something to prove and nothing to lose.

It's good news all round for us all

[MunsterMac]

What Penney has done is introduce a whole new way of playing. That should stand to the players in the long run.

What new way of playing is that? Go side to side ad nauseum until you run out of steam or ideas or just make a mistake. (A style by the way that we don't seem to have gotten one bit better at in the last 2 years.)

Try outlandish offloads that are rarely on, pass the ball 2 yards away from the target player either giving him no chance or killing the momentum?

Try all of the above until you get to a HC match (i.e. a match that matters) where you return to a more set piece oriented game with a more direct style and actually win a few matches?

Against Ulster I wouldn't blame Penney one bit. How could anyone predict Munster would be THAT bad.

Oh I don't know, maybe because HE'S THE COACH?!?!?

It's his bloody job to prepare the team for each match and believe me that Munster team were not prepared for that match.

[BlueMuff]

In terms of Penney getting coach of the year (is that Rabo or Irish?) If its Irish I would agree. Semi final HC and semi final Rabo for a team that was supposedly well behind Leinster and behind Ulster aint bad.

He has also brought through heaps of young talend. Cronin, Foley, JJ, TOD, John Ryan. Players like POM, Murray and Keatley are improving hugely.

The East to West is frustrating to watch at times but for the bigger games we have reverted to type.

[Notch]

It's the Pro12 coach of the year.

So, not sure that HC should count for it tbh.

[ME-109]

I think you are being harsh MMac and maybe being a little too critical. We have being winning well all year and developing nicely. The wheels seem to have come off the wagon a little since the Leinster game yes even in the HC where we had a good second half performance against Toulon but came up short again. So I believe Penney has been very good for us. For last saturday the players need to take a look at themselves.

For the East West problem stuff I think that the blame can be pointed to the following
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mznUMYY7YC8

[profitius]

What Penney has done is introduce a whole new way of playing. That should stand to the players in the long run.

What new way of playing is that? Go side to side ad nauseum until you run out of steam or ideas or just make a mistake. (A style by the way that we don't seem to have gotten one bit better at in the last 2 years.)

Try outlandish offloads that are rarely on, pass the ball 2 yards away from the target player either giving him no chance or killing the momentum?

Try all of the above until you get to a HC match (i.e. a match that matters) where you return to a more set piece oriented game with a more direct style and actually win a few matches?

Against Ulster I wouldn't blame Penney one bit. How could anyone predict Munster would be THAT bad.

Oh I don't know, maybe because HE'S THE COACH?!?!?

It's his bloody job to prepare the team for each match and believe me that Munster team were not prepared for that match.

They played the same tactics they were playing all season and they were 1/15 in the bookies. So I'd blame the players more than Penney. Rugby is a physical game and if you're not up for the fight then you're in trouble.

[profitius]

2014/15 season

Munster In. Bleyendaal (12), Martin Kelly (TH prop), Copeland (8), Andrew Smith (13),
Promoted: Shane Buckley (6),


Munster Out. Downey (12), Lualala (13), Niall Ronan (7), Nagle (lock),
Rumoured: Johnny Holland (10), Darren O'Shea (lock),


I'm happy with those changes.

[rodders]

Where's Downey and Ronan off to?

Funny I think Munsters centre partnership has been a real difference this season and will be hard to replace both.

[Golden]

Ronans retiring due to injury.

[Notch]

Ulster In; Ruaidhrí Murphy, Wiehahn Herbst, Franco van der Merwe, Dave Ryan, Ian Humphreys

Rumoured/Unconfirmed Coming In; Brendan O'Connor, Louis Ludik, Sean O'Hagan

Ulster Out; Tom Court, Paddy McCallister, Niall Annett, John Afoa, Johann Muller (retired), Sean Doyle, James McKinney, Ian Porter, David McIlwaine, Paddy Wallace (retired), Chris Farrell, Chris Cochrane (retired)

[ME-109]

Where's Downey and Ronan off to?

Funny I think Munsters centre partnership has been a real difference this season and will be hard to replace both.

If you mean crabbing across field, trying hail mary passes, not bringing their back three into play, stepping all over the place so the rest of your teammates dont know what you are going to do next or just being ineffectual...then yes they have made a difference.

[Notch]

Munster have always struggled for centres. Why is that? We would kill to produce the number of talented locks and back rows Munster have but then Ulster generate an excess of centres and Munster are constantly needing to go shopping for them.

[rodders]

Where's Downey and Ronan off to?

Funny I think Munsters centre partnership has been a real difference this season and will be hard to replace both.

If you mean crabbing across field, trying hail mary passes, not bringing their back three into play, stepping all over the place so the rest of your teammates dont know what you are going to do next or just being ineffectual...then yes they have made a difference.

Here now, who's talking about Zebo?

[Pete330v2]

Where's Downey and Ronan off to?

Funny I think Munsters centre partnership has been a real difference this season and will be hard to replace both.

If you mean crabbing across field, trying hail mary passes, not bringing their back three into play, stepping all over the place so the rest of your teammates dont know what you are going to do next or just being ineffectual...then yes they have made a difference.

Here now, who's talking about Zebo?

    

[Sin é]

Munster have always struggled for centres. Why is that? We would kill to produce the number of talented locks and back rows Munster have but then Ulster generate an excess of centres and Munster are constantly needing to go shopping for them.

Barry Murphy was a pretty good player who had to retire through injury. Then we had Dutchy for a long time as well (he came over to play with Middleton and ended up with a Munster contract). As well as that, a lot of the forwards have been failed GAA players, whereas as GAA would still be a big draw in the Munster counties for the type of players who would make good backs.

[ME-109]

Mick Kiernan was about the last international centre produced by Munster (except for the odd cameo from John Kelly and Earls).

Its a product of the old style Munster game (10 man rugby)...all that was required for Centres was to be able to tackle - passing or being able to beat a man were optional extras. Thats why there are plenty of scrum halfs, outhalves, full backs and some wings for Ireland but centres....nope...players like JJ and Rory Scannell are starting to break the mould though.

[Notch]

I really would like to see JJ to play 12. Offers a different option in that midfield area for Munster, will not fall into the trap of just shovelling the ball on. You'll need a big guy at 13 though.

[ME-109]

I think you will see Blyendaal at 12 and Smith (big guy) at 13. Rory Scannell should get some game time as well. JJ is a 10 though and even when he comes on as sub, Keatley is moved to 12.

[Notch]

Bleyendaal is as much a 10 as Keatley or Hanrahan really. He's mainly played that position. Believe he can play 12 in addition to that, but he's been at 10 most of his career.

[ME-109]

He is signed as a 12 full stop. That is the story.

[Notch]

He would need to be, the IRFU see Leinster as having the only NIQ 10.

[ME-109]

Exactly.

[Notch]

Reading Thornley in the Irish Times, three of the five top seeds for next years European Competition are the winners of each competition- the other two are two randomly drawn runners up.

So all to play for in terms of securing a top seeding this weekend. Could be very important.

[asoreleftshoulder]

Brain dead system,I suppose the PRL needed some way to guarantee their teams a top seed.

[Sin é]

He would need to be, the IRFU see Leinster as having the only NIQ 10.

According someone in the know on Munsterfans he is a 12 and can only play 10 in extraordinary circumstances and Munster will need the permission of the IRFU.

Thornley today in the Irish Times wrote about the new Champions Cup. A big meeting tomorrow. It looks like it will be controlled by the French with the new Director General/CEO (aged 70!) presently vice president of Clermont and their new HQ just over the border from them in Switzerland.

And they don't even have a logo yet let alone any sponsors. I think the PRL & LNR maybe subsidising the Pro12 for a few years by the look of things unless Michelin digs them out of a hole of course.

Seems Heineken maybe the Pro12s new Sponsor which would be just great! We would still have a heino every year!

[Sin é]

Reading Thornley in the Irish Times, three of the five top seeds for next years European Competition are the winners of each competition- the other two are two randomly drawn runners up.

So all to play for in terms of securing a top seeding this weekend. Could be very important.

I don't think it makes any difference. I'd much prefer to have a home and away against any of the top teams in the groups rather than meet them in the knock-out stages where you will more than likely have an away match.

Its time that the knock-outs were stages in neutral venues I think. Even think of having a few in the US maybe!

[ME-109]

Jebus sin I know you live in Dublin but the last thing Munster supporters need are trips even harder to get to.

[profitius]

And they don't even have a logo yet let alone any sponsors. I think the PRL & LNR maybe subsidising the Pro12 for a few years by the look of things unless Michelin digs them out of a hole of course.

Seems Heineken maybe the Pro12s new Sponsor which would be just great! We would still have a heino every year!

Well if that came to pass it would be sweet on so many levels. However I think the French are going to put their HEC up to bidders. It was on free to air TV up until now. Thats where they'll get the money.

[Notch]

Its time that the knock-outs were stages in neutral venues I think. Even think of having a few in the US maybe!

  No thanks!

The thing with the knockouts... I have no problem with a system that means 50% of the fans won't have to travel, as opposed to a system where everyone just has to travel.

[Sin é]

Its time that the knock-outs were stages in neutral venues I think. Even think of having a few in the US maybe!

  No thanks!

The thing with the knockouts... I have no problem with a system that means 50% of the fans won't have to travel, as opposed to a system where everyone just has to travel.

I reckon Munster could have made a lot more finals if the semis were in neutral venues. Its just not fair the way it is at the moment.

(PS - I have a problem with always having to travel anyway).

[Notch]

That is entirely true about the semis, but the quarters are an entirely different matter.

[MunsterMac]

How's about 2 leg (home and away) quarters and semis?

[MunsterMac]

Anyone else seen this?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/eddie-osullivan-emerges-as-favourite-for-munster-backs-coaching-role-30272329.html

I have to say I'm a bit conflicted but maybe he wouldn't be the worst choice.

Can't be any worse than Mannix.

[rodders]

Well you can't whisk an egg with a cheese grater.

[Pete330v2]

Well you can't whisk an egg with a cheese grater.

You'd be surprised what you can do when you're dying for an omlette

[Mickado]

If Eddie gets the job then so be it, you can't unring a bell.

[rodders]

We'll never die wondering I suppose.

[ME-109]

As usual a well thought out article from Quinlan today....

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/going-out-in-the-pro12-semi-final-will-mean-a-wash-out-of-a-season-for-munster-ulster-or-leinster-1.1793588

[Pete330v2]

I like Quinlan's articles, they do always come across well and he hits the nail on the head more often the not. Neil Francis however.....not so much

[rodders]

As usual a well thought out article from Quinlan today....

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/going-out-in-the-pro12-semi-final-will-mean-a-wash-out-of-a-season-for-munster-ulster-or-leinster-1.1793588

I'd say losing in the final would be a wash out too. It could be washouts all round......

[ME-109]

RE EOS - he has been interviewed but there are others in the process at the moment....too early to be saying he is a shoe in.

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