Sir Ian McGeechan on Expanding the Premiership and Relegation

I think we all know Sir Ian's pov on this subject.  But he wrote another article printed in today's Telegraph.  I would prefer to see more detail around the business plan for his recommendation, but he clearly lays out his philosophical justification.  

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10806233/Worcester-dropping-out-of-the-Premiership-is-crazy-relegation-should-be-scrapped.html

My biggest concern about his reco to expand the Premiership to 14 clubs is how to prevent additional matches for our already over-extended players.  On most other points I have to say I am interested.  In particular, I would like to see more about his assertion it would help England.  I know I refer to US sport a lot, but to me they are the benchmark.  And they never had a relegation process.   Take a read - what do you think?

Well it won't come as a surprise to anyone on this board that I'm totally agin Geech's madcap idea as mine are equally extreme the other way.

As is well-documented, my view is that the Prem shoud be cut to eight (by successive two down, one up promotion/relegation). The second division, being therefore being bolstered and balanced on 12 (possibly 14) teams.

I'd abandon the playoffs and fill the IWs with cup competitions to provide the end-of-season HQ showpiece.

Essentially English rugby is (rightly imo) predicated on an open door competition policy which permits access to all-comers.

If the current Championship was populated by more competitive teams like Newcastle, LI, Wasps etc along with the Bristols, exiles from all parts and Leeds, it would certainly become more popular to fans wouldn't it? And there'd still be room for clubs like the Trailfinders and Jersey to harbour their desires and aspirations.

Plus English elite players wouldn't be exposed to the debilitating grind of so many matches.

Also the season could be better structured.

14 teams largely ring fenced is fine if you're on the inside (what's that Ian? Leeds are put in the top tier? What about Welsh who finished above you in the league?). Unfortunately the vast majority of teams are on the other side. I find the idea that Worcester shouldn't get relegated because they have money largely reprehensible. IM wants Leeds in the top tier and safe.

The new RFU/club deal will be negotiated for 2016. The championship clubs will be represented (according to a Bedford guy). ALL options need to be considered.

Hammer,
You quickly found the vulnerability in Sir Ian's argument in that including Leeds in his ring-fenced 14 he can appear self-serving (or semi-ring-fenced as he proposes relegation in 5 year increments).  I do like his ideas of connecting the 14 biggest academies to Premiership clubs, thereby providing greater access to the Premiership for promising talent.  But I do not like the idea of adding any new/incremental fixtures to the calendar.
 
In the macro view, I have concerns about the viability of the current business model of the Premiership.  I believe it is inevitable something will have to change in the not too distant future.  Sir Ian is correct, in my opinion, a 5 year hiatus on relegation will allow some teams to shore up their finances and invest in their operations.  These investments, whether in ground improvements, players, care, coaching or other aspects of enhancing the customer experience would unquestionably improve financial stability of the whole enterprise.  This is a big plus for his plan.  

Some years, relegation battles bring out the fans. Not so sure how frequent that is, so I would believe it is probably 50% of the time.  This year, Worcester were done by New Year's.  Only Newcastle kept any interest at all since they steadfastly refused to win Premiership matches  in 2014.   So that would not be a major argument for relegation.

Portnoy, no worries about knowing your point of view about the proposal.  As I was typing the thread, I thought of you and wondered about the fun of the you of view having a chance for real debate with Sir Ian on the topic.  I am not joking when I say that.  But I also carefully - very carefully -say that I find myself inching closer every day towards Sir Ian's position...........

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/10806233/Worcester-dropping-out-of-the-Premiership-is-crazy-relegation-should-be-scrapped.html

Link is to a comment piece by McGeechan in Sunday telegraph arguing for expanding the AP to 14 teams and ending relegation. Whatever about expanding to 14 teams but ending relegation is total nonsense. No relegation is one of the criticisms levelled at the Rabo so why does McGeechan propose a similar system for the AP - simply creating a 14-strong cartel where it doesn't matter how sh1t the team is it's guaranteed its place.

estricting European qualification to the top 7 Rabo teams is hopefully going to put an end to a lot of the end-of-season dross at the lower end of the league. Look also at France where two Top 14 bluebloods - Biarritz and Perpignan - have just taken the drop into the second division, Perpignan by a single point difference. Haven't heard Blanco whinge (yet!) about the iniquities of the relegation system in the Top 14.

The real litmus test of his convictions is whether he'd be willing to go ahead with the plan if Leeds weren't one of the chosen 14.

https://www.606v2.com/t53547-sir-ian-mcgeechan-on-expanding-the-premiership-and-relegation

I think people need to stop conflating all 'English people' together. McGeechan says he's always been against relegation in the pro set up. Has he ever criticised the pro12 for it? In fact who has criticised the Pro12 for it other than WUMs?

Mainly just WUMs. Of course the IRFU have never supported ending relegation in their domestic club tournament and neither have the SRU, WRU or FIR to my knowledge. The Aviva Prem is a domestic club tournament and the Pro12 is not so the comparison is rather moot.

Very true. The question for me is can you develop a stable professional structure where any club could be bought up, player brought in the bring them up.

Any ring fencing for me would be of professional teams, much like in Wales really. Only there would be 20 teams, either in 2 leagues or 4 conferences of 5 (a la NFL). But it's purpose would have to be to generate a stable professional structure in England for all those teams. The idea of a 14 team one is terrible as those teams like Welsh, Bedford, Pirates, etc can give up now.

Geech is not saying anything that hasn't been said before and belive it's an honestly held opinion. I think he's wrong but we're all entitled to a view.

I understand the arguments and can see some good in both but I'm a firm believer in relegation/promotion. It's harsh and difficult to manage but it keeps the whole thing sharp. The things that need to change are to do with making the Championship a true 2nd tier that can develop teams and players with AP potential and then allow them the opportunity and funding is the major one just as it is in the AP. Getting Greene King sponsorship and a bit of tv support is a step forward but has to go a lot further.

I haven't checked but I would guess there are only about 4 Championship clubs who could meet AP requirements without having to commit to crippling ground leasing deals so potential for promotion is already very restricted. What are the rest to do? Gates at Championship games are pretty small and that further limits funding. The deal with Sky is way too limiting, it needed a free-to-air deal to get viewing figures up which would have stood a chance of broadening interest in the teams and the game as a whole with the possibility of increasing gates.

There has to be a better chance for clubs to hold on to not only the young guns they have brought on instead of their emerging talent being picked off as fast as they come through but also senior players who won't put up with playing in a lower league. I have to wonder how Wuss will manage their squad now they are down, what will Bristol do having already announced a few signings if they don't actually win promotion , a real possibility. How will Welsh do if they don't go up? This year there is way more doubt at the top end with the play offs as they stand and whoever goes up is going to struggle and this will always be the case until there is more parity between AP and the best of the Championship. Last year Falcons were in a league of their own but look how they've got on, frankly lucky Wuss have been so poor.

Deep down, I don't believe there are enough players of the required standard to support more than about 16/18 clubs at a high level so we need a system that can provide a platform to showcase them.

I want to see those clubs that merit it get the chance to play the best and a resonable chance of surviving financially.

Let's say relegation is suspended for a few seasons after this, just to firm up finances and business plans across the board.  Problem with that?  

The more I see relegation from a financial perspective the less sense it makes.  Before open professionalism came in, promotion/relegation was the Social Darwinism of the Rugby, mostly on the pitch.  Now it is much more balanced between the Rugby being played and the finances of the clubs.  In fact, it can be argued that the balance has tipped toward the financial side.  In that context, why not allow the finances of the weaker clubs to come to more of a balance with the stronger ones?  Even things up.

We can't expand the Jeff to accomodate more clubs as there isn't enough space to play the games unless something else goes (B&I or LV).

Since there are realistically very few clubs have the resource and finances to get anywhere near the Premiership who about setting up a Premiership 1 & 2 as ringfenced leagues of say 10 or even 8 sides each with promotion and relegation between the two, the winners automatically go up and runnners up play off, two sides go down - could add a playoff against the second level play off winners if required.

Selll off the TV rights as a package for both levels and spread the money equally among the teams. Turn the LV into an FA cup style competition starting with the clubs from the National Leagues and the big guns coming in at a later round - maybe put an Amlin spot as a carrot for the winners/losing finalists.

Whilst there would be no relegation at the start, after a suitable period (3-5 years) there could be a review period and at that point a team outside the league could apply to join/replace the bottom side.

The top end teams would still have the extra funding that their performance and prestige demands - European money, better sponsorship, etc. but there would also be opportunities for another smallish club to do a Saracens and join the elite.