RP12 Semi Final 2: Leinster v Ulster, 17 May

First topic message reminder :

Leinster Rugby v Ulster Rugby

Saturday 17 May 2014, KO: 19:00
Royal Dublin Society

Live on RTE/BBC NI/S4C

Referee: Leighton Hodges (WRU., 40th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Ian Davies (WRU), Neil Paterson (SRU)
Citing Commissioner: Paul Minto (SRU)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (WRU)

A. Teams:

I. Leinster


Kearney R, McFadden, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Kearney D, Gopperth, Reddan;
Healy, Cronin, Moore, Toner, Roux, Ruddock, Jennings, Heaslip.

Dundon, McGrath, Ross, Cullen, O'Brien, McGrath, Madigan, Kirchner

II. Ulster

C Gilroy, T Bowe, J Payne, D Cave, A Trimble, P Jackson, R Pienaar;

C Black, R Best, R Lutton, J Muller (Captain), I Henderson, R Diack, C Henry, R Wilson.

Replacements: R Herring, A Warwick, A Macklin, D Tuohy, S Doyle, P Marshall, J McKinney, L Marshall.  

B. Previous Championships

I. Leinster

Three (2001-2002; 2007-2008; 2012-2013)

Playoff Record - Played 4, Won 4:
2010 RDS: beat Munster 16-6.
2011 RDS: beat Ulster 18-3.
2012 RDS: beat Warriors 19-15.
2013 RDS: beat Warriors 17-15.

II. Ulster

One (2005-2006)

Playoff Record - Played 2, Won 1, Lost 1:
2011 RDS: lost to Leinster 3-18.
2013 Ravenhill: beat Scarlets 28-17.

C. Form - head to head:

36 Played 36
26 Wins 7
7 Losses 26
3 Draws 3
78 Tries 44
53 Conversions 32
106 Penalties 94
5 Drop Goals 3
829 Points 575
28 Avg. Age 24

D. Form - this season & last:

Fri 21 December 2012, 19:05
Ulster Rugby 27 - 19 Leinster Rugby
Ravenhill

Sat 30 March 2013, 18:15
Leinster Rugby 18 - 22 Ulster Rugby
Royal Dublin Society

Sat 25 May 2013 (Grand Final), 16:45
Ulster Rugby 18 - 24 Leinster Rugby
Royal Dublin Society

Sat 28 December 2013, 18:45
Leinster Rugby 19 - 6 Ulster Rugby
Royal Dublin Society

Fri 2 May 2014, 19:30
Ulster Rugby 20 - 22 Leinster Rugby
Ravenhill

Same as that; made sure that weekends off coincided with Heineken Cup semis and final, and Pro12 final. Got stung there but at the time we were in with a great shot of a home draw.

Notch wrote:Best, Wilson, Diack, Tuohy all cleared to play. Pienaar to have a final test tomorrow. I would start Henderson ahead of Tuohy.

1) Black 2) Best 3) Warwick 4) Muller (c) 5) Henderson 6) Diack 7) Henry 8) Wilson 9) Pienaar 10) Jackson 11) Bowe 12) Marshall 13) Cave 14) Trimble 15) Payne

Other than the front row we are well equipped to win this... whether or not this is a disappointing season for Ulster hinges on the next two games and of we win this we are well placed to make it the best season in a while.

If that is the team, and young Warwick continues to confound expectations, then as I've said before I will take Ulster to win this.

I think that they just want it more.

I am assuming nobody has seen that freak Rory Best and Wolverine from X-Men in the same room...

George Carlin wrote:

Notch wrote:Best, Wilson, Diack, Tuohy all cleared to play. Pienaar to have a final test tomorrow. I would start Henderson ahead of Tuohy.

1) Black 2) Best 3) Warwick 4) Muller (c) 5) Henderson 6) Diack 7) Henry 8) Wilson 9) Pienaar 10) Jackson 11) Bowe 12) Marshall 13) Cave 14) Trimble 15) Payne

Other than the front row we are well equipped to win this... whether or not this is a disappointing season for Ulster hinges on the next two games and of we win this we are well placed to make it the best season in a while.

If that is the team, and young Warwick continues to confound expectations, then as I've said before I will take Ulster to win this.

I think that they just want it more.

I am assuming nobody has seen that freak Rory Best and Wolverine from X-Men in the same room...

Rory's powers of regeneration are Wolverinishly freaky. It's also testament to the Ulster medical team but for most players the season would have been over, for Super Rory there is no rest. With great healing power comes great responsibility.
If that is to be the side we put out (and I believe it will be) then I'd say we have a great chance to win that final spot. It's knockout time lads an this Ulster side will feel they need some silverware like they need oxygen. Only winning the Pro12 will be a good enough farewell to Johann now.

Ulster deserve to win this. Leinster will make it difficult for them, but won't have the firepower to do much damage themselves. It really should have been Ulster's year, and but for a hare brained ERC/IRB referring directive, it would have. I'll be supporting leinster, but really won't feel too strongly about the result

kunu wrote:Ulster deserve to win this. Leinster will make it difficult for them, but won't have the firepower to do much damage themselves. It really should have been Ulster's year, and but for a hare brained ERC/IRB referring directive, it would have. I'll be supporting leinster, but really won't feel too strongly about the result

Deserve?

Why? What does deserve have to do with it anyway?

Deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it. Anyway, the best team on the day will deserve it.

Speculation Ulster will name Darren Cave-Jared Payne centre partnership.

They deserve to win it as the side who play the better rugger. As to the relevance, I think deserving it comes into my thought process when watching the game, and how badly I want my team to win. My point was, I really wouldn't mind seeing Ulster win- contrasts a lot with last year's final.

To take you up on the 'Leinster fans are spoilt ' point Notch, I think there's a bit more too it than that, although I accept your views are probably more accurate as somebody with no affiliation, or emotional link to the team.

It's just the pain of seeing MOC turn our talented chaps into a team of steady eddies that does my head in. Leinster aren't meant to be that sort of team, but their record is too good in the league for media criticism. I suppose the goal of the recent criticism that some fans (myself included) are aiming at MOC is to bring the stale, austere performances (even in victory) to light, when the media won't.

The rugby club had a MOC special a couple of months back where they claimed he was a like-for-like replacement for Schmidt. Most of my criticism is aimed at dispelling that sort of nonsense.

Notch wrote:Deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it. Anyway, the best team on the day will deserve it.

Speculation Ulster will name Darren Cave-Jared Payne centre partnership.

That would be interesting,did Cave come on at 12 against Leinster the last day?He looked very good,by far your most threatening back on the day.

Schmidt would have had Reddan-Madigan keeping the tempo high and finding gaps. O'Connor might have Boss and Gopperth crabbing sideways slowly across the pitch. You can see why we fancy our chances more now.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Notch wrote:Deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it. Anyway, the best team on the day will deserve it.

Speculation Ulster will name Darren Cave-Jared Payne centre partnership.

That would be interesting,did Cave come on at 12 against Leinster the last day?He looked very good,by far your most threatening back on the day.

I think he is a better player than Marshall full stop but I'm concerned about who might play fullback if Payne is at centre.

Am seriously worried ahead of this game. Only in the props do Leinster have a clear advantage, second row and back row evens. In the backs Ulster have a far more threatening backline especially in half backs where Pienaar/Jackson are way ahead of Madigan/Gopperth-Reddan/Boss. Can only hope Pienaar is rusty after his layoff - otherwise can see Ulster getting their revenge. Hope I'm wrong but......

Notch wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Notch wrote:Deserve ain't got nothin' to do with it. Anyway, the best team on the day will deserve it.

Speculation Ulster will name Darren Cave-Jared Payne centre partnership.

That would be interesting,did Cave come on at 12 against Leinster the last day?He looked very good,by far your most threatening back on the day.

I think he is a better player than Marshall full stop but I'm concerned about who might play fullback if Payne is at centre.

What about Olding,I know he's been unlucky with injuries but isn't he meant to have the most potential of all the outside backs in Ulster.Payne for me looks a far better player at 15 but maybe that's just due to a lack of gametime at OC.

http://www.rugby.net/topten.html?#List:listId=5081280915963904

Dear Maaaak,

Please note who's top, and stick him on on Saturday.

Yours,

Don.

I agree Don. Too many rumours about Marshall being jettisoned and too many folks suddenly thinking he has had a poor season. Let's not forget he started the 6N and went very very well and but for injury probably would have got the Italy game too

I would also like to see Marshall and Cave with Payne at 15, where he is best. If it was a straight choice between Marshall and Cave I'd go with Cave on form but it's so obvious those two are the best partnership.

Every great Payne performance for Ulster has come at 15. He's never touched those heights from centre. There's such a massive disparity in class between Payne the fullback and Payne the outside centre that if he was to move to centre full time it would almost feel like losing a player.

Who would play at 15 if they went with Cave-Payne in the centres?

Andrew... or Gilroy. No, we need JP at 15. Gotta recognise that.

Gilroy? WTF? It's got to be 15 JP, 12 Marshall, 13 Cave. Specialists in all positions.

Why would you have anything else?

People forgetting the possibility of Olding as 15. He hasn't had enough professional senior gametime to say he's nailed his colours to the mast positionally.

He could be as good at 15 as any position.

Truthfully, heres what i believe - Anscombe wants to rest players a lot more and needs a bit more (good quality) depth and injury free run to do that.

I think he wants pretty much every back to be comfortable playing in different positions without it weakening the team performance.

Expect to see lots of mixing about next season.

Rumours about Hogg to Ulster are resurfacing following him not appearing in Glasgow's semi final XXIII. The Scotsman is reporting that Ulster is willing to double his salary.

If Payne is selected at centre today, should we read anyhing into this vis a vis Hogg?

George Carlin wrote:Gilroy? WTF? It's got to be 15 JP, 12 Marshall, 13 Cave. Specialists in all positions.

Why would you have anything else?

No idea, will seriously question Anscombes judgment if that is not the team. Unless of course Marshall is injured, obviously.

George Carlin wrote:Rumours about Hogg to Ulster are resurfacing following him not appearing in Glasgow's semi final XXIII. The Scotsman is reporting that Ulster is willing to double his salary.

If Payne is selected at centre today, should we read anyhing into this vis a vis Hogg?

I don't want us to sign Hogg, so I hope not.

Very hard to believe Ulster would sign a player on double wages when they have an expensive import already on their books.

Unless Jared Payne is off.....?

I wouldn't be upset at all if the lad was to sign for us but I'd be livid if he was to do so on an inflated salary. Any team would benefit from what Hogg brings to the pitch but I can't see Mr Humphreys forking out the dosh this time.

Payne - Cave is an excellent centre partnership to me, not sure where it leave Luke Marshall if that's the direction things are going. Caves future is at inside centre too I believe and he has a great chance of usurping D'arcy for the RWC 12 jersey if he gets a run.

There's a bit of a midfield overload at the minute with McCloskey, Olding and Allen too though.

Hogg would be a great signing for us but think we should persevere with Gilroy at the back as he has all the skills to play 15.

Would Hogg really merit such a large salary? People can read what they want into the selection for the game tonight but Peter Murchie is ahead of him on merit... Hogg is a hog, he rarely passes the blydi ball outside him which is one of the main things Payne does that makes me so keen to keep him at 15.

We were meant to be getting Louis Ludik who would come cheaper than Hogg and do the same job. If he's leaving Glasgow because his relationship with the coaches has broken down, you have to question whether he's the kind of personality we want in our dressing room.

Ulster says NO... to Stuart Hogg.

Well Hogg is young, a current Scottish international, Lions tourist, can play 15, wing and fly half and can place kick.

I'd say he's worth a bit, yeah.

I just don't think he's going to represent value for money. The place kicking is a nice extra but we're only going to ask him to play fullback realistically. And then you have him missing during international windows- thats a negative, not a positive. What we need to do is sign someone who isn't an international but is still quite good who'll be available right through the year on a smaller salary.

I wouldn't pay to much interest to media reports about doubling salaries - most likely Hoggs agents trying to drive his salary up.

I don't think it will come off but an on form Hogg would add something to our backline.

It would still be frustrating because it's still a step down from having Jared Payne at fullback... and then a talented homegrown centre will miss out. This whole Payne to 13 thing is a ball-breaker.

Things don't stand still - things evolve from season to season - individual players change and want different things and the coach and club are not dictators.

There is a clear drive for Payne to move to his favoured position of centre by the IRFU and the player himself. He'll either get a chance their at Ulster of he'll leave.

That means we have to look at alternatives - Gilroy is a work in progress, Nelson and the other options aren't good enough.

If a move for a player of Hogg's quality comes off then I'm all for it because Payne won't be at Ulster much longer if we force him to 15 against his will and scupper his international aspirations.  

I don't feel in the slightest sorry for the home grown centres who may miss out because if they are good enough then it will be Payne who misses out.

If he's a bit of an unworkable personality then I'd steer well clear of him. He seems to have gotten on the wrong side of the Glasgow coaching team and fellow players alike, perhaps why he wishes to leave. What he brings to the pitch he negates by what he brings to the squad it seems. It could all be media BS as usual though in which case I would welcome him with open arms if he learned that this is a team sport and other players need to be involved

if we have Ludik, then we have no more NIQ spots. - Herbst (project), Van Der Merwe, Williams, Pienaar and A.N. Other.
 
Ludik would be there during the Six Nations and given the recent Afoa saga, I can't see Ulster buying into anyone with any kind of questions over their temperament or commitment.

Don Alfonso wrote:Ludik would be there during the Six Nations and given the recent Afoa saga, I can't see Ulster buying into anyone with any kind of questions over their temperament or commitment.

Still my preferred option for these reasons.

rodders wrote:I wouldn't pay to much interest to media reports about doubling salaries - most likely Hoggs agents trying to drive his salary up.

I don't think it will come off but an on form Hogg would add something to our backline.

The other thing to remember is that Hoggy's current contract was negotiated when he was 19, and pre-stardom, so you can assume that it's not huge - in which case, even doubling it still represents a steal. If he's moving, I'd have him at Exe in a heartbeat

rodders wrote:Things don't stand still - things evolve from season to season - individual players change and want different things and the coach and club are not dictators.

There is a clear drive for Payne to move to his favoured position of centre by the IRFU and the player himself. He'll either get a chance their at Ulster of he'll leave.

That means we have to look at alternatives - Gilroy is a work in progress, Nelson and the other options aren't good enough.

If a move for a player of Hogg's quality comes off then I'm all for it because Payne won't be at Ulster much longer if we force him to 15 against his will and scupper his international aspirations.  

I don't feel in the slightest sorry for the home grown centres who may miss out because if they are good enough then it will be Payne who misses out.

Could Olding move to 15 to accommodate Cave at 12 and Payne at 13, lads?

Pete330v2 wrote:If he's a bit of an unworkable personality then I'd steer well clear of him. He seems to have gotten on the wrong side of the Glasgow coaching team and fellow players alike, perhaps why he wishes to leave. What he brings to the pitch he negates by what he brings to the squad it seems. It could all be media BS as usual though in which case I would welcome him with open arms if he learned that this is a team sport and other players need to be involved

Evidence, Scotty?

rodders wrote:Well Hogg is young, a current Scottish international, Lions tourist, can play 15, wing and fly half and can place kick.

I'd say he's worth a bit, yeah.

This is true. Hogg is Scotland's best running fullback since Andy Irvine and his showreel of tries created out of absolutely nothing at club and international level is already pretty long if you want to Google it. He is also a reasonable kicker for goal and an exceptionally accurate kicker out of hand (watch for the old fashioned spiral punt technique he uses). He is a confident kid and I'm going to state the obvious that this self belief is the reason why he's good. I've seen him interviewed about 10 or 12 times and I never got the sense that he had an attitude. I think he's been frustrated by injury and competition. I'm not defending anyone acting like a douche but that's probably the reason.

To put it another way, I would be worried if a Glasgow or Edinburgh side had to face off against him in another team.

I also understand Notch's position. If you don't have many NIQ slots, is he the kind of player that the overall squad needs? It might be, of course.

Olding can play 15 but its not his best position. I think ultimately Olding will just gravitate to his best position naturally because he is so talented.

A back line of 12 Cave, 13 Payne and 15 Olding is still not as good as 12 Olding 13 Cave and 15 Payne. Hence the frustration. It's very possible to accommodate Payne in his second best position we'll have to move other players into their second best position... hopefully Payne still plays the big games at 15.

Notch wrote:Olding can play 15 but its not his best position. I think ultimately Olding will just gravitate to his best position naturally because he is so talented.

A back line of 12 Cave, 13 Payne and 15 Olding is still not as good as 12 Olding 13 Cave and 15 Payne. Hence the frustration. It's very possible to accommodate Payne in his second best position we'll have to move other players into their second best position... hopefully Payne still plays the big games at 15.

What about 12 Cave,13 Olding,15 Payne.Olding looks class but it seems a waste of a large chunk of next season trying to convert him to fullback and also converting Payne to OC (I know he's played there before but he definitely needs work to get up to the standards he sets at FB),Olding moving one out to 13 and Payne staying at FB where Ireland are very short of cover for Kearney seems a far better use of resources.

Olding is too small to play full back long term - lets kick that one into touch because it won't happen.

I think if Payne does move to centre Olding will get more and more game time at fullback. He's too good not to play and if the IRFU want Marshall to play 12, Payne to play 13- he's going to play 15.

When are the teams posted? Doesn't it have to be by 12noon the day beforehand?

Should be coming up in the next half hour or so.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:If he's a bit of an unworkable personality then I'd steer well clear of him. He seems to have gotten on the wrong side of the Glasgow coaching team and fellow players alike, perhaps why he wishes to leave. What he brings to the pitch he negates by what he brings to the squad it seems. It could all be media BS as usual though in which case I would welcome him with open arms if he learned that this is a team sport and other players need to be involved

Evidence, Scotty?

No evidence at all Asbo, just reading what some of the Weegie fans on here have said about his behaviour and some media comments on the same. As I said it could all be media BS as in these cases it usually is. As for what the fans say, it was all said on the Glasgow v Munster thread I think (maybe another Glasgow orientated discussion).

Pete330v2 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:If he's a bit of an unworkable personality then I'd steer well clear of him. He seems to have gotten on the wrong side of the Glasgow coaching team and fellow players alike, perhaps why he wishes to leave. What he brings to the pitch he negates by what he brings to the squad it seems. It could all be media BS as usual though in which case I would welcome him with open arms if he learned that this is a team sport and other players need to be involved

Evidence, Scotty?

No evidence at all Asbo, just reading what some of the WeegieEdinbokke fans on here have said about his behaviour and some media comments on the same. As I said it could all be media BS as in these cases it usually is. As for what the fans say, it was all said on the Glasgow v Munster thread I think (maybe another Glasgow orientated discussion).

Fixed that for you, mate - troublemakers, the lot of them   

Ahaaaa the slimey pups

On the point of player being a little arrogant etc it's not a bad thing. It's called confidence in bucketloads. Paddy Jackson is said to be quite the arrogant young lad but needs to be to do the job he does. He's also a great at lip-sincing as is widely available on youtube.

Agreed. But this is the same kid that took the trouble to tweet my wee lad on his birthday in the middle of his Lions training - his heart is good, that I can promise you

Leinster side:

Kearney R, McFadden, O'Driscoll, D'Arcy, Kearney D, Gopperth, Reddan;
Healy, Cronin, Moore, Toner, Roux, Ruddock, Jennings, Heaslip.

Dundon, McGrath, Ross, Cullen, O'Brien, McGrath, Madigan, Kirchner