Wilkinson retires

First topic message reminder :

Former England fly-half Jonny Wilkinson has announced he will retire from rugby at the end of this season.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27467391

What I think makes Wilkinson special is his dedication - there are certainly more natural talents out there but his commitment to training, practice and general improvement of his game marks him out, and in that he's much more of a role model to players than others.
He's the embodiment of the idea that while you can't coach talent, what you can coach is making the absolute most of the talent you've got, developing it and expanding it. You may not have more talent than the other guy but you can work harder than him.

Everyone has the opinions of Johnny...and i may be biased for obvious reasons but the one thing that does irritate me is the same boring statements that all he could do was kick and tackle!

Whilst he may not have been Shane Williams or Jason Robinson...Johnny actually had a pretty good running and passing game that complimented his defensive and kicking abilities well.

Alan, I have amended my post above which I understand offended you.

Of course any fly half is only one member of an overall unit but when a single player retires, it is both interesting and perfectly natural to try and assess that player's merits relative to his peers. I think that I am different to some people as I don't tend to remember the performances hampered by injury or think that moving to a club which is synonymous with importing its talent denigrates his standing as a player.

I agree that it is useful to not try and suggest that any 10 was perfect. For me the best 10s that I watched growing up were Ella, Mehrtens, Larkham and Carter but none of them was ever the best at every conceivable aspect of the game.

I enjoyed watching JW very much and I'm sure he will make a valuable addition to any set of coaching staff.

Every high flying player has his hero worshippers and his detractors.

Wilko was in my view one of the very best when he was at his best, sadly for every player there comes a time when the detractors gain more momentum as players begin to lose form.

I don't think it is necessary to detract from his achievements as his record speaks for itself.

I never met the man but from what I have read about him over the years he was a team man, honest, hardworking and an exemplary ambassador for the game, he was a consummate professional and an allround decent bloke.

He can be proud of the career he has and influenced many young flyhalves during his career.

Ontop of that he has a RWC winners medal, I suspect you can't ask for much more than that, comparing great players is like comparing great sportscars, it is all a matter of prejudice and taste.

Well done Wilco, you left an indelible mark where you tread.

Only player (so far) to have scored points in two different RWC finals

I'll leave the "greatest" debate to others on here who thrive on the trivial. More importantly he epitomizes the professional sportsman with his dedication, humility and constant quest for improvement. A great role model for our sport. Good luck JW - I hope you find a way to continue to influence the game.

I don't think there is anything wrong with talking about his legacy and comparing him to other players. In retirement that what often occurs. People have sporting obituaries so to speak. Everyone has peers, even the very best.

We're at an interesting age where many people can remember the old days, and some even more. The game has changed so much in that time but at an organic level which makes us think its simply natural progression.

Some guys in the old days wouldn't have made it in the modern game... but I don't doubt there are some guys in the modern game who wouldn't have made it in the old days either.

The sport tends to prefer 15 Ivan Drago's over an liquorice allsorts old school team who probably had superior ball skills.

JW would probably be the first to say he was not the best and arguably there was probably only 2-3 years when he was standout the best player in his position.... yet in my 25 years of playing and watching rugby for me he is the greatest clutch player the world has ever seen. The guy who would be the first on my teamsheet as you knew what you got was utter dedication, supreme confidence on the field and skills to match all bar a tiny handful of individuals in the history of the sport.

So who will get a Knighthood first, Wilko or Beckham?

Scrumpy wrote:So who will get a Knighthood first, Wilko or Beckham?

Sadly we know the answer to that one

Glad to see he's committed to joining the coaching staff at Toulon, a first step to an outstanding coaching career I hope. SL has also indicated that he would welcome his involvement in the England setup in the future and I can't think of a more perfect fit for the Lancaster philosophy.

A model professional, a shame his career was marred by injuries, but he still managed to achieve so much.

Biltong wrote:Ontop of that he has a RWC winners medal, I suspect you can't ask for much more than that, comparing great players is like comparing great sportscars, it is all a matter of prejudice and taste.

Well done Wilco, you left an indelible mark where you tread.

Biltong, if you don't mind I will take your point about the cars to an extreme.  Jonny was/is a proper Aston-Martin in a world of full of Trabbies.  
Was also the reluctant superstar who actually brought people to Rugby.  More than anyone in Rugby history with whom I am aware.  

For those of you who are too young to know Trebbies, please go here:    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trabant
The first paragraph is enough.

An inspiring player that is the very definition of the modern professional and gave more to the sport than most could dream of.  We each hold our own countrymen of our time closer to our hearts (as an Irishman BOD will likely always maintain that place for me), but probably only two players have so far internationally captured the imagination of the wider public beyond our game with their endeavours on the pitch, Lomu and Wilkinson.

You know a player is special when despite the beatings he dished out to the French they've come to consider him a favourite son.  As the French journalist Arnaud David said,

It is an amazing thing, but Jonny has become the most popular rugby player in France, more popular than the best French players.  He is appreciated as much for his frailties as his strengths, and is an icon in France.

On a side note I think it's sad that the only poster who couldn't bring himself to open their comments on here with a compliment before launching into criticism (clearly their principle aim in posting on this particular thread), is probably the oldest poster on this site.  Here was me thinking it's the young lads in the game that lacked respect.  Time & place fella, TIME & PLACE!

Embrace the language and the culture and they love you... say simply "bonjour, can I have a coffee please" and they 'll give you the same level of respect as you gave them.

I remember in his early interviews how insistent he was on speaking french even if he got into difficulty. The level of humility was profound for someone of such status.

There have undoubtedly been more naturally skillful players than Wilko, but his dedication to the game and those around him elevated him above the majority of them.

There's a quote in the NZ press that sums it up for me:

"his motivation will be exactly as it was when he began playing mini-rugby as a seven-year-old - to give absolutely everything, physically and mentally, to help the team succeed. Nothing less.

There can, surely, have been no other sportsman who reached such a pinnacle of achievement by claiming so little personal glory - and who dedicated so much of his life to mining every last drop of his own talent before enhancing it with endless, obsessional practice.

Throughout his career, Wilkinson simply refused to be beaten - by opponents, situations or six painful months of rehabilitation."

Well, I never thought I'd see that Phil Vickery lasted longer than Jonny Wilkson, but there you go!

I think he also deserves a lot of credit for staying as long as he did with Newcastle, I'm sure he would have received countless offers and ££££££££s to leave them at the height of his career.

Scrumpy wrote:I think he also deserves a lot of credit for staying as long as he did with Newcastle, I'm sure he would have received countless offers and ££££££££s to leave them at the height of his career.

To be fair to others mind I reckon he was probably the highest paid player in the UK after sponsorship during his tenure at Newcastle so its easier for him to stay loyal. Others without the additional perks may not have had such flexibility to turn down massive offers from rival clubs.

This is why top level sport needs guys like Wilko.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27484318

Scrumpy wrote:I think he also deserves a lot of credit for staying as long as he did with Newcastle, I'm sure he would have received countless offers and ££££££££s to leave them at the height of his career.

Eh he was on a massive contract at Newcastle who were the richest club in England for some time under Sir John Hall. As soon as their money ran out he jumped ship to Toulon. Hardly something to be proud of. He was shrewd with his contracts was Johnny .

wum

Yeah i saw that Scrumpy...he needs to shut his mouth.

Hes becoming a joke...sulking for nt getting spoilt on his birthday...after all the racism pleas.

Erm Yaya...you get £250,000 a week or something stupid + what ever perks. Surely that a good enough birthday present.

rodders wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:I think he also deserves a lot of credit for staying as long as he did with Newcastle, I'm sure he would have received countless offers and ££££££££s to leave them at the height of his career.

Eh he was on a massive contract at Newcastle who were the richest club in England for some time under Sir John Hall. As soon as their money ran out he jumped ship to Toulon. Hardly something to be proud of. He was shrewd with his contracts was Johnny .

  Ill resist and watch the response...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

rodders wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:I think he also deserves a lot of credit for staying as long as he did with Newcastle, I'm sure he would have received countless offers and ££££££££s to leave them at the height of his career.

Eh he was on a massive contract at Newcastle who were the richest club in England for some time under Sir John Hall. As soon as their money ran out he jumped ship to Toulon. Hardly something to be proud of. He was shrewd with his contracts was Johnny .

  Ill resist and watch the response...

I don't get you Geordie - man likes the mullah, no shame in that...   

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah i saw that Scrumpy...he needs to shut his mouth.

Hes becoming a joke...sulking for nt getting spoilt on his birthday...after all the racism pleas.

Erm Yaya...you get £250,000 a week or something stupid + what ever perks. Surely that a good enough birthday present.

Come Friday morning after UKIPs landslide Euro win and Farage is the new Euro Galactic Emperor will he be allowed to work here anymore?

Dont talk politics here Scrumpy...you'll disappear never to be seen again....Mods have eyes EVERYWHERE....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Dont talk politics here Scrumpy...you'll disappear never to be seen again....Mods have eyes EVERYWHERE....

Very true

Yes or No?   

Wherever I've worked it's always the person who's birthday it is who brings in the cakes - work don't provide them!

"Aye" or "Naw" surely ! 

Same here Irish...

Irish Londoner wrote:Wherever I've worked it's always the person who's birthday it is who brings in the cakes - work don't provide them!

Thats true!

It seems that because I don`t consider JW the greatest ever I have offended some here.
It was`nt my intent so if you are offended I apologise to those concerned,HE was a part
of a very special team.
My opinions are just that mine,RWC`s mean nothing to me,and the winning of is a team
event.
In my opinion 9 is the key figure in a side,BUT having said that if HE doesn't get the ball.?
then 10,12,15 or whoever can`t run the game.
Goalkickers are the most important member of the side all things being equal and JW was
among the best there.

fa0019 wrote:

No9 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Best ever NH ENGLAND FH.

Maybe... but no way the best EVER NH fly-half.

Cliff Morgan; Barry John and Phil Bennett all better than Wilkinson. Different era yes, but each of those would have held their own in the professional era, and each would have shown Wilkinson how to play...

Lets also not forget. Throughout most of the 2003 RWC campaign, Wilkinson was protected, kept out of danger using Mike Catt where as first receiver where it could be a little dodgy. Just to keep Wilko free from injury so he was there to kick the penalties. Best FH, no, sorry not by a long shot. Best penalty kicker, err.... maybe over the whole of his playing career, but there where others to challenge him during the period. Neil Jenkins for one (when their playing time overlapped)...

So, BEST... only if you're wearing ROSE tinted specs...

No offence to phil Bennett but he wouldn't have survived in the game today or at least had the same impact? What was he 5'5?  Perhaps had he had some next generation improved diet and health and was at least 3-5 inches taller but not if was the same. You can say the same for cliff morgan. Some of the greats for sure, but in the modern game, no.

Jpr and Edwards without a doubt mind. Would have been top class in any era.

It's a different game I'm afraid. When I first started playing most backs looked like typical everyday people, some guys dad who went to keep fit on Wednesday nights. These days most backs are within the tallest 5% of the population bar scrumhalf... And even then you have chaps like Phillips and Murray.

Want to know what a willow the whisp type player looks like today... A Matthew tait rag doll

Bennett was 5' 7"... I agree he is not of the same build as today's bunch, but rugby is about different shapes and sizes. More importantly, FH is about decision, flare, ability, speed and agility... all skills Bennett has in abundance. I agree it is whats and ifs, when comparing across the eras, but Bennetts skills are still what define a great 10 (as is Cliff's and Barry's).

emack2 wrote:It seems that because I don`t consider JW the greatest ever I have offended some here.
It was`nt my intent so if you are offended I apologise to those concerned,HE was a part
of a very special team.
My opinions are just that mine,RWC`s mean nothing to me,and the winning of is a team
event.
In my opinion 9 is the key figure in a side,BUT having said that if HE doesn't get the ball.?
then 10,12,15 or whoever can`t run the game.
Goalkickers are the most important member of the side all things being equal and JW was
among the best there.

I don't think people are particularly bothered about your opinion on the lad, just the manner in which you chose to express it. I'm Irish, so I certainly wasn't offended.

gelodge wrote:

emack2 wrote:It seems that because I don`t consider JW the greatest ever I have offended some here.
It was`nt my intent so if you are offended I apologise to those concerned,HE was a part
of a very special team.
My opinions are just that mine,RWC`s mean nothing to me,and the winning of is a team
event.
In my opinion 9 is the key figure in a side,BUT having said that if HE doesn't get the ball.?
then 10,12,15 or whoever can`t run the game.
Goalkickers are the most important member of the side all things being equal and JW was
among the best there.

I don't think people are particularly bothered about your opinion on the lad, just the manner in which you chose to express it.  I'm Irish, so I certainly wasn't offended.

We are talking about a professional athlete so it is hard for anyone to really be offended, I suppose.  Clearly that pair of posts was bad form and in poor taste:  Jonny was not great, only pretty good, and someone else was better.  

Clearly not the way to pay tribute to a terrific player on the cusp of his retirement.  History will provide a myriad of opportunities to categorise him, if people feel that is necessary.  To me, one of the few and finest role models I have seen or met in sport.

Let's not forget he won world player of the year in 2003.

For those who forget the regard Wilkinson was held in during the early 00s, go and find a recording of England v Australia from the summer before the world cup, and listen to the Aussie commentators - they don't often call opponents things like 'champion players'.

I think in the longer term, England's RWC winning team will be looked as being built around 3 all time greats (and plenty of other very good players). The three were Johnson, Hill and Wilkinson.

You can argue whether JW has been surpassed as an all-round professional 10 by Carter, and also make a not ridiculous argument for Mehrtens and Larkham to be viewed with the same reverence (although with different strengths and weaknesses), but there have been few if any players with such a strong drive for success.

gelodge wrote:

emack2 wrote:It seems that because I don`t consider JW the greatest ever I have offended some here.
It was`nt my intent so if you are offended I apologise to those concerned,HE was a part
of a very special team.
My opinions are just that mine,RWC`s mean nothing to me,and the winning of is a team
event.
In my opinion 9 is the key figure in a side,BUT having said that if HE doesn't get the ball.?
then 10,12,15 or whoever can`t run the game.
Goalkickers are the most important member of the side all things being equal and JW was
among the best there.

I don't think people are particularly bothered about your opinion on the lad, just the manner in which you chose to express it.  I'm Irish, so I certainly wasn't offended.

Agree, its not strictly what you said its how you came across. He probably wasnt the best 10 ever, or even in the NH ever...but he was a tremendous player and his influence on teams are there for all to see. When players like Giteau and Bakkies Botha both put him on a pedestal having spent time with playing and training with him, i think that speaks volumes.

I will judge on their opinion more than yours thats for sure.

He was a winner.

GeordieFalcon wrote: its not strictly what you said its the way you said it.

You sound like my wife.   

Thats fine!

Ive changed it!

He has been idolised by clubs, fans and players wherever he has played, that is what says it for me.

As has been previously posted, hard nosed Saffers, Aussies and Frenchmen all tip their hat to him.

In the late 90's and early 00's England played a style of attacking rugby that was a joy to see, all orchastrated by JW. Look at Englands try scoring record in those days, it surpasses anything seen since in the NH at least.

JW could run the ball as well as anyone in his day. That the England game plan become more 10 man orientated was not JWs fault, but it showed his versitility that he could be world class at that as well.

He invented the term "aggresive defence" for backs, it was the part of the game he enjoyed most.

He would still have been regarded as a great even without the goal kicking, but add the defence and the points scoring and you have one of the best three 10's of the professional era. The term "professional" epitimises JW, he is held in awe by all who have played with him or trained with him, that cannot be said about many players.

That my much adored wife would support Toulon rather than Saints is a bone of contention in our household and she does not give her support lightly.

Well done JW have a great retirement and I look forward to watching your coaching careerer develop.

Do me a favour and run Sarries into the ground on Saturday, I have a feeling we will need an edge on the 31st.

IMO the real way to tell a players "greatness" is by what his peers say about him. Many seasoned internationals of the last 10 - 15 years have gone on record to admire Jonny, even hard bitten props and 2nd Rows - Hayman and Botha. Listen to what Dan Carter, who plays in the same position, has played against him and is a rival for best 10 of the modern era, says about him. If these guys hold him in such high esteem, then to my mind he is a great.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:That my much adored wife would support Toulon rather than Saints is a bone of contention in our household and she does not give her support lightly.

My first reaction after reading this was shock and horror. There are penal and reform colonies to send disobedient, obstreperous, or insolent wives for a while: Devil's Island, St. Helena, and so on. maybe Elba if you actually like the girl.

However, after extensive research I have found that women are granted a 'Jonny Exemption' This codicil of the Rugby Bible and supplement to the IRB Law Book applies only to women vis-a-vis Jonny and expires at the time of his retirement. So your wife is safe for now.

I agree, good luck to Jonny's team, and if they manage to wear down Sarries just enough for Saints brave and tired heroes to bring home the goods, so much the better.........

dummy_half wrote:You can argue whether JW has been surpassed as an all-round professional 10 by Carter, and also make a not ridiculous argument for Mehrtens and Larkham to be viewed with the same reverence (although with different strengths and weaknesses), but there have been few if any players with such a strong drive for success.

I think of the 4 players mentioned Wilkinson was for sure the least rounded or naturally gifted fly-half. But if you wanted a guy to step up and win you a game it would be Wilkinson every day of the week and twice on Sundays for me. Wilkinson's medal haul and points tally speaks for itself. He was something special and hopefully he signs of with another medal at the weekend.

Having reread the posts here about JW`s retirement I see that I was guilty of breaking my
own cardinal rule.Making comments about great players past and present without qualifications.
I also see in hindsight that my comments though accurate didn't come across in the same
light.I will try to clarify the situation from my point of view my opinions and biases which
are well known.
Due to eras,gameplans,lawchanges,teams priorities.and MOST important the teams
success rate.
In 1997 Sir Clive Woodward started his reign as Englands supremo on a rolling 10 year
contract till 2007.[terminated by him in 2004]
He was one of if not the first to go the money no object route,his teams travelled first
class.Had the best food and accomadation available,a PR man,a teams doctor and physio,
as well as.Coaches for every thing from kicking,defence,scrum,lineout,forward,back,even
deportment or teamaking for all I know.
What one should not do is make wild statements or a least in accurate ones or quote
stats for a short period to prove a point.
SCW`s record over his total period 1997-2004 over some 80 games including the "the Tour
from Hell"when he sent effectively an A team to tour NZ/Aus.was 71%
That includes a period 2001-3 when his side was beaten 3 times in that period which equates
with the great AB periods 1966-9,1987-90,or 2011-14 and Boks 1937-49[at least]
For the record the All Blacks record win loss 1997-2004 including 1998 when "Fitzys team
retired en masse.was Played 94 ,won 72.[inc 6 out of 9 v England]drawn 2 lost 22 a 79.8%
record.
Johnny Wilkinson and Andrew Merthens were both key players in those era`s the difference
being.JW`s was ongoing all be at Test level limited,Merthens finished.
My comments relevant to these two players was formed and stated in 2003/4 on the Freeserve Rugby Forum.Reiterated on Rugby rebels ,606,and here.
I am neither a hypocrite or a syncophant so I will say this some comments hit my cringe
filter."HE influenced the way Goal kicking is done?" perhaps the kids but few Goalkickers of today.So did the "Round the Corner kickers "in there day,he invented the "Aggressive Defence" role.NO he didn't that has been standard practice for at least 70 years to my
knowledge,[Jack Mathews,Mannie roux,Ian Macrae etc.]
Every thing said by others here I agree with,he was a Great goal kick,and part of whatever
teams he played for including his all round skills.
He was a very brave man over coming injuries and working with his. Coaches to change both
his tackling and Goal kicking style because of the injuries.All the honours he has he thoroughly deserves and like Merthens a Coaching role beckons.
During his Career when fit were there any rivals for the England shirt?
Playing the "IF GAME"for various reasons Merthens lost 59 caps to Simon Culhane
,Tony Brown,and Carlos Spencer.Discounting Spencers 35 caps if he had been capped
the other 24 times.HIS Test record scores would be close to JWs [70 for him 90 for JW}

fa0019 wrote:

No9 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Best ever NH ENGLAND FH.

Maybe... but no way the best EVER NH fly-half.

Cliff Morgan; Barry John and Phil Bennett all better than Wilkinson. Different era yes, but each of those would have held their own in the professional era, and each would have shown Wilkinson how to play...

Lets also not forget. Throughout most of the 2003 RWC campaign, Wilkinson was protected, kept out of danger using Mike Catt where as first receiver where it could be a little dodgy. Just to keep Wilko free from injury so he was there to kick the penalties. Best FH, no, sorry not by a long shot. Best penalty kicker, err.... maybe over the whole of his playing career, but there where others to challenge him during the period. Neil Jenkins for one (when their playing time overlapped)...

So, BEST... only if you're wearing ROSE tinted specs...

No offence to phil Bennett but he wouldn't have survived in the game today or at least had the same impact? What was he 5'5?  Perhaps had he had some next generation improved diet and health and was at least 3-5 inches taller but not if was the same. You can say the same for cliff morgan. Some of the greats for sure, but in the modern game, no.

Jpr and Edwards without a doubt mind. Would have been top class in any era.

It's a different game I'm afraid. When I first started playing most backs looked like typical everyday people, some guys dad who went to keep fit on Wednesday nights. These days most backs are within the tallest 5% of the population bar scrumhalf... And even then you have chaps like Phillips and Murray.

Want to know what a willow the whisp type player looks like today... A Matthew tait rag doll

Bennett was 5' 8" and 11st when playing. One of the best side-steps and swerve ever but was definitely an armature in his mind-set as were most others of his timeframe.

Its pointless comparing decades of players let alone the professional v the armature era.

What you can say is that Wilkinsons consummate professional approach and dedication masked what was a naturally talented player who would have been world class in any of the back positions.

Under pressure his composure put him at the top of the pile ahead of Mertens, Carter, Patterson, Neil Jenkins or Halfpenny.
His bravery and defence put him at the top bar none, unfortunately it also robbed him of four years when he was at his peak.
His intelligence and awareness on (and off) the pitch put him at he top bar none.
He knew his limitations (acceleration and overall speed), be he worked on them, compensated for them and ensured that his skill-set worked around all the teams he played in.

The stats speak for themselves, but if he had played or the All Blacks then the world have pronounced him as the best defensive 10 ever, and the best game-manager ever.

I would put him in the top 3 flyhalfs ever to  play the professional game, and in the top 10s ever.

In his pomp JW was the best in the world of that I have no doubt and comparing players of different eras is never easy and never ends in a friendly discussion.

I think what made JW stand out was his utter professionalism and dedication which others have admired and try to emulate. Halfpenny has said it is Wilkos dedication that has made him be as committed as he is and even Wilko himself said it was Neil Jenkins' own dedication helped him into what he became.

When I stationed in the North East I was lucky enough to meet JW a few times down at the Falcons he was always the first in training and last to leave practicing his kicking until in the end I think his commitment and sheer bloody mindedness led to some of his injuries.

The one reason why he liked it there was that even in 03 he could still walk through the Toon relatively unknown due to Newcastle be football mad, he could have easily took the money on offer long before he went to Toulon.

I wish him all the best for today he was certainly one if not the best of his time, best overall well that as I said is always speculative.

Regarding Phil Bennett or any player from the amateur era, I think that kind of comparison is apples and oranges, if you will.  The amateur era guys had jobs and limited opportunities to train and improve.  As we all know, the current players are much better athletes, bigger stronger, faster.  What we tend to forget is they practise the skills of their craft every day.  

The interesting question is whether the amateur athletes could play today's game given today's training, nutritional, and medical advantages.  But that ends up as a circular discussion with no right or wrong.  The greats from the past were exactly that, and there is nothing wrong or demeaning saying it that way.  They helped build the game we have today and gave many of us our Rugby heroes.

Stats confirm the the relative 97 tests total JW 70.10 win record inc Lions,with 1246 points
scored.[win rate rises for Eng to 73%]points scored overall at 12 .84%.
Merths 70 tests 71.42 % win rate in his period and a strike rate 961 pts of 13.72 per game.
Frankly there was nothing in it stats wise Merths was more or less finishing when JW started
there is NO best just a matter of opinion.
With my knowledge of Nz rugby of the releavent periods I doubt he would have started
over either Merths or Spencer.
THAT does`nt make him inferior just different he played most of his Rugby in the dominant
team of the era 2001-3.
I think before you can really compare teams or players you have to do it when there losing.
In the turmoil of the 1970`s England side for example Great players were dropped more times than many who were picked.
NZ are the most unforgiving in those terms the only sin is losing,Coach,Selector ,player heads roll.

Emack I would disagree with you on whether JW would have started over Merts or Spencer, as you said the stats reveal very little, but its the overall quality of players that both played with during their international journey..... The All Blacks were the better overall team during both players tenure.

The one thing you can say that no matter what team JW played in Newcastle, England, Lions, Toulon he was the go too player of them all. So on that premise I would say if he played in NZ he would have been the go too player.

And when you look at the world class New Zealander who took a dabbatical in France (including Carter) then you can make an educated assumption that Wilko would have upped his game to become No:1 choice in any country.

But again its all speculation and opinion