Lions Lock of Future

First topic message reminder :

Who do you think will be the next lions locks ?  i excl oconnell and others for being over the hill. Sorry Paul  

only vote for 2 please   

The point isn't if the Lions will be defunct sometime in the future but come 3 years time if you wanted to contribute to this topic. Any longer term than that is better for another thread.

Jimpy wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:No, having a debate about potential second rows isnt stupid. Its a debating forum, about what nations are producing players and which senior players could still be there.

Its a pro Lions thread.

You have deliberately come on to a Pro Lions debate and offered an opinon that was not relevant nor wanted.

You then continue on by insinuating that the majority on this thread are Misty Eyed because we like the Lions idea.

Its like a Football hating person going on to a World Cup thread and saying I HATE FOOTBALL, and that every one who watches it is an a$£hole.

Well, three years in advance, I personally, think it is.

That's like - debate you know, or the basis for it at least. Debate is expression of opinion, is it not? I opine that The Lions is defunct in the current climate, which is a counter to the original question. Open for debate and all that. Perfectly valid.

Good to see normal service resumed

Definition of stupid: posting on a thread you think is stupid

Its not that stupid !

How many bolters can you name who were totally or relatively unknown 3 years before any lions test, actually got picked and started for the lions on any of the tours ?

to my knowledge none  

2013 - AWJ - 28
        - POC - 34
2009 - AWJ - 24
        - POC 30
        - Simon Shaw -35
2005  - POC - 26
        - Ben Kay - 29
        - O Callaghan -  26
2001 - Martin Johnson - 31
          Danny Grewcock - 28
1997 - Martin Johnson -  27
          Jeremy Davidson - 24
1993  Martin Johnson - 23
        Martin Bayfield - 27          

History tells you traditionally u dont get too many lions bolters and usually not at lock.

alive,

I think your pretty spot on, there are not many bolters in forwards at all most bolters or long shots seem to be in the backs where maybe they won't be as exposed.

Look its only 3 years away, AWJ will still be up there but if Lunchpad and Lawes continue on their upward spiral the honors will be theirs, this is likely to depend as much on 6 Nations success as anything else and until England start coming 1st and not 2nd every year then their players will also be 2nd choice

Well Martin Johnson was a total bolter

And Scratch I am not so sure - it seems form can be decided on a single match

Was Johnson a bolter or just a bolter as captain?

Martin Johnson wasnt a total bolter as by 1990 he had already played for NZ Under 21 and had been playing for Leicester Tigers since 1989. ie he was on the radar then, the same as Johnny Gray is now - although hes only just 20, and already has 3 caps.

I guess its what you class as a bolter, is it someone who is an established club player but not yet been capped or maybe even someone with few caps and still establishing themseleves.

I believe Johnson was a replacement/ late call up the first time around. He was (especially for the time) very young at lock and became 1st choice very quickly

lostinwales wrote:I believe Johnson was a replacement/ late call up the first time around. He was (especially for the time) very young at lock and became 1st choice very quickly

correct for policeman - wade dooley   

If Martin Johnson wasn't a bolter in 1993, then the word doesn't really have much meaning.

I will but my neck out and say Kitchener (He will over take Parling next season) and after the world cup be one of englands starting locks unless we win the cup.

 But Kitchener is certainly one to watch, has lighting pace and makes great runs (See Ulster @ welford road) great tackler, Excellent lineout operator just injury can maybe hold him back.

Welly wrote:I will but my neck out and say Kitchener (He will over take Parling next season) and after the world cup be one of englands starting locks unless we win the cup.

 But Kitchener is certainly one to watch, has lighting pace and makes great runs (See Ulster @ welford road) great tackler, Excellent lineout operator just injury can maybe hold him back.

That's really interesting, and part of me agrees to. Parling's injury certainly came at a bad time, and he seems to have a mountain to climb in order to claim back his England shirt

I wouldnt be taking Parling to NZ...i think there are better versions of him about. But he has experience and knows Lancasters requirements so i can understand his selection.

How old is Kitchener now?

GeordieFalcon wrote:I wouldnt be taking Parling to NZ...i think there are better versions of him about. But he has experience and knows Lancasters requirements so i can understand his selection.

How old is Kitchener now?

Early twenties. 24 I think. I really like him and Slater as a pairing, so hopefully we'll see more of that next season. Kitchener has often been on the bench this season, with Deacon and Slater starting. Now that Parling is back too there's even more competition.

The pack for the next Lions tour could be something quite special, and it'll need to be. Each player will need to be both a specialist in his chosen role, but also a gifted allround athlete about the park. Fitness will also be critical. Touring New Zealand is the ultimate challenge.

Lock is a very close battle, and obviously impossible to call with any accuracy at this stage. Given what I say about about the needs for athleticism and a great allround game to face the All Blacks, my five locks to tour would be:

Lawes, Launchbury, Evans, Henderson and J Gray. I predict the English duo of Lawes and Launchbury will start.

The fact that Dave Attwood and Richie Gray don't make it just goes to show the depth in that position.

funnyExiledScot wrote:The pack for the next Lions tour could be something quite special, and it'll need to be. Each player will need to be both a specialist in his chosen role, but also a gifted allround athlete about the park. Fitness will also be critical. Touring New Zealand is the ultimate challenge.

Lock is a very close battle, and obviously impossible to call with any accuracy at this stage. Given what I say about about the needs for athleticism and a great allround game to face the All Blacks, my five locks to tour would be:

Lawes, Launchbury, Evans, Henderson and J Gray. I predict the English duo of Lawes and Launchbury will start.

The fact that Dave Attwood and Richie Gray don't make it just goes to show the depth in that position.

I've got to start watching more Rabo games and get a glimpse of this lad! He sounds so promising

FES, just in the English ranks alone, we have Kruis coming through at Sarries...Dom Barrow at Falcons, Stooke at Gloucester who all look seriously talented and should be well established players for their clubs by then.

Then you have all the other home nations locks coming through....theres going to be some serious talent to choose from.

BUt of course...the Scots lads may not be available if a certain vote goes a certain way in September.

He really is, and I'm not even a Glasgow fan.

The criticism of his older brother Richie was always that despite being a terrific athlete, he played more like a ball carrying number 8 than a lock, and that come the rucks and the lineout, he didn't do enough donkey work. Richie loves the open spaces, getting his hands on the ball or running down players that no lock has the right to catch, but come the stats at the end of the game, his tackle count wouldn't be particularly high, and his contribution to the lineout and set piece not what it should be. Richie shone in a poor Scotland team and when he arrived with the Lions some of his basic skills were shown up alongside great lock technicians such as POC, Jones and Parling. Guys whose only touch of the ball during a game might be winning lineout ball, and yet they can still win MOTM.

Jonny on the other hands has the same athletic ability, but is a pure workhorse. His tackle count is ridiculous high every game and he is merciless at the ruck, and has a good technique getting over the ball. The closest NH comparison I can think of is Joe Launchbury - quite similar players. He has a terrific engine and as a result of being Scottish, will get plenty of international experience sooner rather than later. Most Scots fans now think that he and his brother will make an ideal pairing. The key to it working is Richie pulling his finger out at the lineout. He's doing it for Castres at the moment, so I think he'll step up. They could make a classic combination for us.

You think the Scots wouldn't partake if the opt out of the UK? More likely to opt out if Gatland is head coach again!

funnyExiledScot wrote:He really is, and I'm not even a Glasgow fan.

The criticism of his older brother Richie was always that despite being a terrific athlete, he played more like a ball carrying number 8 than a lock, and that come the rucks and the lineout, he didn't do enough donkey work. Richie loves the open spaces, getting his hands on the ball or running down players that no lock has the right to catch, but come the stats at the end of the game, his tackle count wouldn't be particularly high, and his contribution to the lineout and set piece not what it should be. Richie shone in a poor Scotland team and when he arrived with the Lions some of his basic skills were shown up alongside great lock technicians such as POC, Jones and Parling. Guys whose only touch of the ball during a game might be winning lineout ball, and yet they can still win MOTM.

Jonny on the other hands has the same athletic ability, but is a pure workhorse. His tackle count is ridiculous high every game and he is merciless at the ruck, and has a good technique getting over the ball. The closest NH comparison I can think of is Joe Launchbury - quite similar players. He has a terrific engine and as a result of being Scottish, will get plenty of international experience sooner rather than later. Most Scots fans now think that he and his brother will make an ideal pairing. The key to it working is Richie pulling his finger out at the lineout. He's doing it for Castres at the moment, so I think he'll step up. They could make a classic combination for us.

Wow, he sounds like a cracking young player. I remember reading in a Rugby World interview a while ago with Richie Gray that his younger brother was actually the better rugby player. I really hope that he comes good in the Scotland jersey. If he can Ritchie can combine in the second row, Scotland actually have a really decent pack emerging. Decent pack, decent ball.   

GeordieFalcon wrote:FES, just in the English ranks alone, we have Kruis coming through at Sarries...Dom Barrow at Falcons, Stooke at Gloucester who all look seriously talented and should be well established players for their clubs by then.

Then you have all the other home nations locks coming through....theres going to be some serious talent to choose from.

BUt of course...the Scots lads may not be available if a certain vote goes a certain way in September.

Don't worry about that. Even if we vote "Yes", none of the bad stuff will happen, only good stuff. We'll still have the Lions. Alex Salmond has promised. After all, why on earth would the Lions not want us?? Scotland is a resource rich nation. You'd never survive without the 1-2 token Scots customarily foisted upon the poor coach at the pre-tour filmed selection meeting. It's questionnable whether the Lions would have won that 3rd Test without Richie Gray (my MOTM) coming on in the closing crucial stages of the match.

Actually, solely by being independent, our players will likely become bigger and better. It stands to reason. They'll be fairer players as well, no cynical and negative play, and no yellow cards. That stuff is all a negative side effect of the negativity flowing north from the negative dictators in negative Westminster.

FES   quality post....

To be honest regardless of the result, i just cant wait till September so i dont have to look at that ugly toad Salmonds face again.

RE Ritchie

Should someone not take him under his wing like they did with Lawes and make him a lineout demon.

Lawes was caught between being an athletic guy (heard him called a basketball player many times) with the mentality of an enforcer.
He has now been transformed into a top class lineout lock with a right physical edge.

Surely Ritchie Gray could be similar.

Surprised people are writing O'Connell off.

GF - it's already happening. Sale worked closely with him on the technical aspects of being a lock and he's now a key part of the Castres lineout.

The issue at Glasgow and with Scotland was that Kellock and Hamilton ran the show, both quite dominant personalities and experienced players. Richie is not a natural leader, and in my view was quite happy being told where to go in the lineout. He's growing up quickly now and and is far more focused as a player on the key part of his role - set piece, tackling like a demon and smashing rucks. There is still work to do, but the sooner Scotland puts the Grays together at lock the better. If they start in the summer/AIs then by the 6 Nations they should have some experience together and by the World Cup could be quite settled.

rodders wrote:Surprised people are writing O'Connell off.

He'll be 37, nearly 38 by then!

GeordieFalcon wrote:FES   quality post....

To be honest regardless of the result, i just cant wait till September so i dont have to look at that ugly toad Salmonds face again.

 agreed he just doesn't have any long term plans imo.

 Anyway.

 the future of the lions locks imo looks strong.

 althought the back row will be more important against NZ.

FEs, right interesting to hear about Ritchie.

Scotland could have a serious lock combo for the next ten years then.

Rodders, yeah i find it hard to believe O'Connell would selected for that tour. Will he even be in the Irish squad by then.

O'connel = lions lineout coach maybe.

Back row will certainly be interesting. But we should still have the likes of:

SOB, Warburton, Tipuric, Lydiate, Wood, Robshaw, Billy Vunipola, Ben Morgan, Faletau, POM, plus im sure there'll be a load of youngsters coming through....

Back row is usually fiercely contested and will be no different this time. Each of the players from the last couple of tours will still be available, so there will be some experienced Lions in the back row.

In addition to the names above there will be strong "project" players from Scotland who will be eligible, Josh Strauss and Cornell Du Preez, both powerful players who cover 6 and 8. I suspect Steffon Armitage will also be a contender for the Lions, notwithstanding his lack of international experience.

SOB, Warburton and Vunipola would be an awesome back row, particularly with extra breakdown work coming from Launchbury in the second row and Healy from prop.

The All Blacks back row has been the best in the business for a number of years, so whilst our options look good on paper, the job will be to find that magic combination that can blend together. The good news is that Richie McCaw will be unlikely to make it. The bad news is that they've probably got the "next McCaw" already working hard on the production line, and that Kieran Read bloke is handy at number 8.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

rodders wrote:Surprised people are writing O'Connell off.

He'll be 37, nearly 38 by then!

Sure Brad Thorn was just playing for the baby blacks at that age.

40 is the new 30 you know.

There are some exceptional players like Shaw, Hines and Thorn who just seem to keep going, but they are exceptional cases.

I'm sure if POC is playing well enough he'll be considered. I just don't think he'll be at the right level approaching his 38th birthday.

Speaking of perennial locks, is Shaw still going?? Has he played for Toulon this season?

Can O'Connell play front jumping lock?

All the types that have gone on well into their perceived retirement were the more brutal enforcer types rather than your athletic chaps like Matfield, O'Connell etc. Don't get me wrong, he's a physical player but perhaps not the brutal headcases which tend to stick around the longest.

Class never goes away but when I see chaps like Launchbury chasing down wingers it looks like a test spot will be unlikely... and guys like O'Connell don't do dirttracker sides. They don't go to make up the numbers.

fa0019 wrote:Can O'Connell play front jumping lock?

All the types that have gone on well into their perceived retirement were the more brutal enforcer types rather than your athletic chaps like Matfield, O'Connell etc. Don't get me wrong, he's a physical player but perhaps not the brutal headcases which tend to stick around the longest.

Class never goes away but when I see chaps like Launchbury chasing down wingers it looks like a test spot will be unlikely... and guys like O'Connell don't do dirttracker sides. They don't go to make up the numbers.

That's definitely true if the rumours from the last tour are true. I was told by one of the Irish fans that POC was nearly a no-show for the 3rd Test.

It just comes down to whether he is playing well enough. As you say, there is some stiff competition from some seriously athletic players.

rodders wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

rodders wrote:Surprised people are writing O'Connell off.

He'll be 37, nearly 38 by then!

Sure Brad Thorn was just playing for the baby blacks at that age.

40 is the new 30 you know.

Actually, 100 is the new 30, rodders

its usual for injured players to go home as apparently it can have a negative impact on the camp. Always wondered on that myself.

Obviously its not great having someone boozing it up whilst the rest are training their socks off. But if they get injured for the last game they often stay until the end.

BOD for instance left before the start of the 3rd test after getting injured in the 2nd. In part because he wanted to get his injury sorted but mainly I think because as the series was over as a contest he didn't want to stick around like he did in 2005.

Anyone interested can see Jonny Gray in the Rabo final this weekend.

I think that he and Lawes would be a monstrous combination of agility and aggression.

George Carlin wrote:Anyone interested can see Jonny Gray in the Rabo final this weekend.

I think that he and Lawes would be a monstrous combination of agility and aggression.

I will be watching   

So "IF" scotland say yes to the vote....

Will it become the British, Irish and Scottish Lions...

Or will it just be The Lions tour?

GeordieFalcon wrote:So "IF" scotland say yes to the vote....

Will it become the British, Irish and Scottish Lions...

Or will it just be The Lions tour?

IBS Lions.....

Yeah probably.

Or The British and Irish Lions and two token Scots...    

beshocked wrote:With the congested schedule you are always going to have a tug of war - club vs country/Lions commitment.

Most casual sports fans couldn't given a damn about the HC but the Lions......

The Lions still attracts a lot of support. It is not ideal in a congested schedule - agreed Jimpy but it is still something that many people appreciate fondly.

Plus it gives the 4 3 nations (plus the token Scot) an opportunity to unite every 4 years instead of bickering.

Fixed that for u :-)

I think Al Kellock could still be hanging around in 2017...
But on a more serious note I don't think we can discount Grant Gilchrist from Edinburgh as he is also quite promising although not a noticeable as the Grays.
On Richie Gray I think he left Glasgow too early for the wrong club and is almost having to start from scratch but he is the most talented of all the locks on the list except maybe his brother and hopefully will have proven that by 2017/.

Welly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:FES   quality post....

To be honest regardless of the result, i just cant wait till September so i dont have to look at that ugly toad Salmonds face again.

agreed he just doesn't have any long term plans imo.
 Anyway.

 the future of the lions locks imo looks strong.

 althought the back row will be more important against NZ.

He could always get a job as a tackle dummy, plenty of incentive there. But I suspect it may encourage a few too many high tackles

GeordieFalcon wrote:So "IF" scotland say yes to the vote....

Will it become the British, Irish and Scottish Lions...

Or will it just be The Lions tour?

Unless they're planning a demolition job on the border I'm pretty sure Scotland would still be on the island of Britain and therefore can still be British.

Then why are the Irish so tetchy about it? Would suggest British comes from whether you're part of Great Britain rather than the British Isles.

But the Republic of Ireland are not "British"

So Scotland would not be "British".