England XV vs New Zealand First Test

1. Joe Marler (Harlequins)
2. *Rob Webber(Bath)        Dave Ward (Harlequins)
3. Dave Wilson (Bath)
4. Joe Launchberry (Wasps)
5. Dave Attwood (Bath)
6. Tom Johnson (Exeter)
7. Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester)

9. Danny Care (Harlequins)
10. Danny Cipriani (Sale)
11. Jonny May (Gloucester)
12. *Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester) Kyle Eastmond (Bath)
13. Manu Tuilagi (Leicester)
14. Marland Yard (Harlequins)
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins)

16. Dave Ward (Harlequins)        Joe Gray (Harlequins)
17. Matt Mullan (Wasps)
18. Henry Thomas (Bath)
19. Ed Slater (Leicester)
20. James Haskell (Wasps)
21. Ben Youngs (Leicester)
22. Freddie Burns (Leicester)
23. Kyle Eastmond (Bath)        Henry Trinder (Gloucester)

*Injury concern...

Thoughts?

Johnson for me is just a bit to lightweight,I want Haskell to start and I want to see him smash everyone in a black jersey.for this match I want to see him defending our 10 channel ala worsley.I would put parling on the bench for experience,slater has had a great season but would prefer him not to make his debut in this match.we need as much continuity as possible for the 1st test.if it's tight(big if) heading towards the last quarter I think parling coming off the bench could be key to us closing out a win.People are calling for him to be discarded but he has never let England down and is a senior squad member and at 30 has plenty of gas left in the tank.all successful sports teams need a squad of players of varying ages.

Johnson is bigger than Wood and far far quicker than Haskell, thank god we've got a England Manager who looks past the hype and deals in facts.

Why is Haskell even in contention. The guy is the antithesis of everything Lancaster's camp stands for.

Tiger/Chief wrote:Johnson is bigger than Wood and far far quicker than Haskell, thank god we've got a England Manager who looks past the hype and deals in facts.

Where have you got the sizes from? According to the RFU website (equally wrong?) Wood has 3" and nearly a stone on Johnson.

Scratch, I agree that Haskell's behaviour (from those video blogs during Wc2011) shows him in a way that doesn't fit with Lancaster (example, taking the urine out of the Leicester players for being 'boring' and focusing on work). Wouldn't surprised if he's omitted.

He will have been bombarding Lancaster with pleas to be involved as he has experience in NZ but unless there is a major injury crisis i just don't get it, massive backward step

Whenever I've seen Johnson I've always come to the conclusion that at test rugby whilst he tries hard, trying hard is not enough.

Haskell is a proven test match player and backed that up with his SR season with the highlanders where he won a lot of praise.

One of the few players who knows what rugby is like in NZ and that shouldn't be overlooked.

Even though i see him as a lock, Slater is more likely to play 6 than Haskell as he's the type of player Lancaster wants there.

Athletic, physical, hits rucks all day long...lineout option. And he is showing his Captaincy material. All top internationals need captains throughout the team.

out of interest can he/does he sometimes play 6? Not like Lawes can play 6 additionally.

If it's a straight shoot out with Johnson for the 6 shirt then Haskell wins in my eyes for the reasons fa0019 says.

Other England players have had a 2nd chance - fair to give one to Haskell too.

Scratch what exactly does the Lancaster camp stand for?

Haskell seems to give away silly yellow cards

Also at hooker...if fit id prefer Buchanan on the bench over Gray.

I think I would have gone fo Slater at blindside or even switched Slater with Launchbury and played him at BS with Slater in the second row with Attwood. At least then we would be a bit physical. Though none of Attwood, Slater and Launchbury are absolute line-out forwards they all offer some capability.

In the backs, maybe Watson instead of May though I still think May is a good player - Watson seems to have that certain something.

Possibily toy with Sinckler rather Thomas as he has a good season.

England may well lose because of being under strength for the first test but they do need to try things. When Lancaster has been more experimental, mostly things have worked. Where he has been a bit more conservative things have generally gone wrong.

CB

I thought we'd got over playing locks as flankers - didn't go too well the last time I remember. Flanker is a specialist position (as they all are at test level) - Stewie, please play a real one - Haskell (or TJ if necessary) will do fine. We really don't need to find new ways of getting a slap by the number one team in their own backyard.

In reply, Wood is of course unavailable. My second choice would have been Garvey who is injured (and a Lancaster favourite). Beyond that not a lot of experience. Slater has played regularly at blindside (though more recently at lock) and would add physicallity. I just feel we need to do something different (and unexpected) in the first test. It will be the winter months is New Zealand, so maybe wet and muddy rather than super hard surfaces.

Haskell is not a bad player but I think Slater has performed better in the Aviva. Tom Johnson is to my mind more an open-side. But it is a choice.

If we go with a robust pack we are offering something different.

CB

Despite the worry over the lack of Sarries and Saints players that's still a good team. I feel Cipriani would be in for a tough time down in NZ though.

why isn't carl fearns in the team. He is the best playing English 6 in the premierhsip

GeordieFalcon wrote:Also at hooker...if fit id prefer Buchanan on the bench over Gray.

Seconded! I'm a big fan of Buchanan. I rate Gray too, but just see Buchanan as the better all-round hooker.

Buchanan is a slightly more powerful player around the pitch I think. Quins think Gray's throwing is better though (probably correctly). They selected Gray for the semi last year (up against Parling and Croft) when Buchanan had been starting for a while.

thomh wrote:Buchanan is a slightly more powerful player around the pitch I think. Quins think Gray's throwing is better though (probably correctly). They selected Gray for the semi last year (up against Parling and Croft) when Buchanan had been starting for a while.

Gray's throwing is better than Buchanan's (and Buchanan's is in turn generally better than Ward's, though both are prone to off days). When both are fit, Conor had been playing them in fairly strict rotation - each would have 40 minutes, and thestarter would change from week to week. Now that all of Quins' current hookers are recent Saxons (and one or more might have full caps befote the tour is out) it will be interesting to see how he handles it next season. Gray is the ost reliable thrower, Ward the best at the breakdown (a converted 7 - and finished the AP semi playing there) and Buchanan's close quarter carrying is excellent (he has a brutal handoff and an eye for the tryline). Buchanan is also the youngest by 3 or 4 years, so from Lancaster's perspective is probably the one to watch for 2019.

NZ team named:
15. Israel Dagg
14. Ben Smith
13. Conrad Smith
12. Ma'a Nonu
11. Cory Jane
10. Aaron Cruden
9. Aaron Smith
8. Jerome Kaino
7. Richie McCaw (c)
6. Liam Messam
5. Sam Whitelock
4. Brodie Retallick
3. Owen Franks
2. Dane Coles
1. Tony Woodcock

Reserves:
Keven Mealamu
Wyatt Crockett
Charlie Faumuina
Patrick Tuipulotu
Victor Vito
TJ Perenara
Beauden Barrett
Malakai Fekitoa.

My thoughts.
Jane is only there because Savea and Piatau are injured. I think if Ranger or Gear were in the country they'd probably be in ahead of him. Look to see Fekitoa to come in on this wing in the last 10 minutes if the AB's are up.

I'm not sure Jane or Dagg offer as much on attack as we've been used to. I think this is a conservative pick, due to injuries. It means we only have one big ball carrier in the backline (Nonu).

Kaino at 8. Interesting. I think he's the logical choice and has been playing 8 for the Blues. The loose forward trio is obviously struggling with injury. Read possibly out for the series, so one has to cover 8. MCCaw can cover, but Cane (his cover at 7) is also out for the tournament. That would have been my first choice, alternate if injury occurred during the game.

Cruden's in ahead of Barrett. He had a shocker last weekend. Hope it's out of his system. I suspect the inside defence will be tested by Tuilagi, given neither Smith nor either 1st five options are big men.

I think England have some advantages going into this game. Whilst the team is understrength and it;s the end of the season, this team have had a bit of time to rest and prepare. They've been here since last week.

Whats your prediction bc?

@SkySportsNews: England team : 15 Mike Brown, 14 Marland Yarde, 13 Tuilagi, 12 Kyle Eastmond, 11 Jonny May, 10 Freddie Burns, 9 Danny Care 1 Joe Marler, 2 Rob Webber, 3 David Wilson, 4 Joe Launchbury, 5 Geoff Parling, 6 James Haskell, 7 Chris Robshaw, 8 Ben Morgan

Eng bench: Gray Thomas Mullan Attwood Johnson Youngs Cipriani Pennell

Parling   

kingelderfield wrote:Whats your prediction bc?

I'm not really sure.

I'm always nervous for the AB's first game of the season. How will injuries affect the side, will they gell on the back of 4 days preparation, and have players fallen out of form/passed their used by date. The other side is. Have England created a team just through adversity, a bit of preparation and resting weary bodies. Are the very good England under 20 forwards of the last few years started to filter into the side. I think Lancaster is a very shrewd operator and a really good manager/coach.

That's the black dog speaking. The other side of the equation is it's the AB's at home. Losses are usually few and far between. An understrength England side. Truth is I expect a win, but I won't be totally surprised if the wheels fall off.

I think it's going to interesting. Just see how the sides have changed over the past few months. I think slight changes to the way the game is refereed will also impact on the game. I still expect both sides to try and dictate the pace of the game. I think NZ will push for a higher pace and try and work England all around the park. This means intelligent kicking as well and using the width of the field. I think England will try and keep a lot of it close to the forward pack and play a bit of a kicking game (that's not saying they wont run the ball if there's a miss match or the opportunity is there). I think it's reflection of the strength of the England forward pack and the NZ forwards ability to play the ball.

There we are I've managed to avoid the question.

BamBam wrote:@SkySportsNews: England team : 15 Mike Brown, 14 Marland Yarde, 13 Tuilagi, 12 Kyle Eastmond, 11 Jonny May, 10 Freddie Burns, 9 Danny Care 1 Joe Marler, 2 Rob Webber, 3 David Wilson, 4 Joe Launchbury, 5 Geoff Parling, 6 James Haskell, 7 Chris Robshaw, 8 Ben Morgan

Eng bench: Gray Thomas Mullan Attwood Johnson Youngs Cipriani Pennell

Parling   

It's not a bad looking side

I'm generally pretty happy with it, probably would have gone with Cipriani over Burns due to form, but Burns has far more time in camp this season.

Parling frustrates me as we have seen the lack of physicality when he is partnered with Launchbury against Wales, but looking at it again we now have Webber, Haskell and Morgan starting rather than Youngs, Croft and an out of position Tom Wood, with the new starters being more physical than any of the latter 3

Still would have liked Attwood to start ahead of him, especially given the club connection with Webber for lineouts

I wonder if they should bring in Matt Symons. England seem to have at least one lock, who've lived and played in NZ, for most of the last 20 years (Johnson, Shaw and Palmer). Symons could be that man going forward.  

Danny Care now an injury doubt after picking up a knock in training.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/27707207

Incidentally, I wonder how we plan to reshuffle our back line if one of the centres gets injured on Saturday...

Jonny May has played a bit at 13 hasn't he.. Not ideal though!

May has played everywhere from 11 to 15, so could in theory cover the centres.  Yarde also played a fair bit at 13 but not at senior level.  It's a worry.

I am completely baffled by the selection of Parling and Burns.  Burns I can kind of understand Lancaster wanting to give him the shot as he was next in line, but Parling has been injured all season and has done nothing to deserve the jersey.  Attwood should have started.  Bomber has got this one very wrong.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I am completely baffled by the selection of Parling and Burns.  Burns I can kind of understand Lancaster wanting to give him the shot as he was next in line, but Parling has been injured all season and has done nothing to deserve the jersey.  Attwood should have started.  Bomber has got this one very wrong.

Lancaster has shown all along he values squad "brand value". If you have been part of his England squad, and not let him down, he'll give you another chance. It's not enough for others to be better options than the incumbents. the incumbents have to be playing poorly when they play for him.

I'd prefer it of he thought more about the value of combinations. Not so much whether people have played together, but whether they complement each other. Parling and Launchbury have played together, but they were also in the pack overwhelmed by Wales last year.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:I am completely baffled by the selection of Parling and Burns.  Burns I can kind of understand Lancaster wanting to give him the shot as he was next in line, but Parling has been injured all season and has done nothing to deserve the jersey.  Attwood should have started.  Bomber has got this one very wrong.

Lancaster has shown all along he values squad "brand value". If you have been part of his England squad, and not let him down, he'll give you another chance. It's not enough for others to be better options than the incumbents. the incumbents have to be playing poorly when they play for him.

I'd prefer it of he thought more about the value of combinations. Not so much whether people have played together, but whether they complement each other. Parling and Launchbury have played together, but they were also in the pack overwhelmed by Wales last year.

Personally I'd have started with Attwood given the form he showed in the latter part of the season but in regards to Lancaster picking combos I'm sure Parling and Launchbury started together when we beat NZ. It's a very different pack now but I don't hear many calls for Marler or Robshaw not to start because they also played a part in the Wales defeat.

Marler has stepped up and is number 1 on merit (he's had a very long season and was showing signs of ware towards the end) which is fortunate as Mullan is 4th.

If Armitage was available i'd prefer Woodshaw to fight it out for the 6 shirt and then we might have a genuine balanced back row - Back, Dayglo, Hill.....Armitage, BV/Morgan, Rob&ood - however on that one I think we'll die wondering.

Well i hope we can show up well...as the AB's have put out one hell of a side.

Launchbury and Parling is too lightweight for me. I would have started Attwood over Parling without a blink.

Haskell brings some real power to the back row. As does Morgan.

It will be interesting to see how this one goes...

For the last time....WHAT TIME IS Kick OFF!!!!

8.35.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well i hope we can show up well...as the AB's have put out one hell of a side.

Launchbury and Parling is too lightweight for me. I would have started Attwood over Parling without a blink.

Haskell brings some real power to the back row. As does Morgan.

It will be interesting to see how this one goes...

For the last time....WHAT TIME IS Kick OFF!!!!

7:35.pm.

7:35 pm NZ time. 9:35am CET 8:35am GMT

I have one more hour to sleep in.   

Just over 47 hours to go till the Haka.

England tour - Auckland, 7 June 2014, 19:35 local, 07:35 GMT, 08:35 BST

Just for the record, Parling and Launchbury were the locks when we beat New Zealand 18months ago. I don't remember too much criticism regarding them being too lightweight after that game.

It looks like Parling has been picked due to his ability to run the lineout for the team, something that Lawes had taken on board since his return to the team. Whether or not it proves to be the right decision remains to be seen but Parling clearly offers something otherwise he wouldn't be picked by Leicester, England and the Lions.

I stand corrected kingelderfield. British Summer Time. Never heard of that one before. Wonder why...   

When I see the backrows and Englands 10 and 12 All Blacks should win with something to spare

Thank you Gentlemen....

Just for the record, Parling and Launchbury were the locks when we beat New Zealand 18months ago. I don't remember too much criticism regarding them being too lightweight after that game.

Jelly

You are infact correct, he is a similar (less physical) style to Lawes. He will hit every ruck, tackle and carry when he can. He's the athletic type of lock that Lancaster likes. And yes he was involved in the previous AB's win.

I just hope he can show that form, as im not sure he has been great from after injury.
Whereas i believe that Attwood has progressed in the 18 months, and offers athleticsim and far more power that would be vital against the AB's.

geoff998rugby wrote:When I see the backrows and Englands 10 and 12 All Blacks should win with something to spare

Well its an interesting one.

7 and 8 are pretty much the same. Morgan and Billy V do the same job very impressively.

The only change is at 6. Haskell will bring in much more physicality and a better carrier, but we lose lineout and breakdown work.

10...well whoever started is going to be a huge call without Farrell.

12...Eastmond is serious talent, he just needs to be used correctly. his defence is solid, but i have no doubt they will swap him and Manu on various defensive plays.

I hope they show what they are capable of. A good showing by Eastmond would really put Twelvtrees under pressure for that 12 spot.

Richard Cockerill will be interested if Danny Care pulls out. Ben Youngs/Freddie Burns is one his half-back options next season.

I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so. Gutted nobody took that bet last week.

Parling was always going to start this game with Lawes and Wood not there. His leadership is seen as vital, the lack of leadership within this group did have to be addressed particularly with Hartley out as well.

The salient point is whether that 'leadership' is worth having an under-powered locking unit. That is I think why he's brought Haskell back in. Partly for his leadership and partly his physicality.

It still wouldn't have been my choice to go with Parling. On the bench maybe but against the likes of Retallack, Messam and the hugely impressive Kaino it's a big ask from a light-weight lock pairing. That's before the vast figure of Tuipolotu makes an appearance from the bench.

Having Attwood there would've given a nice balance of carrying and stopping power.

Incidentally, with Danny Care unlikely to make it Dickson will be called onto the bench!

Can we try to stick to one thread or another please   

If it's p!ssing down with rain, England have a chance.

The backs are far too inferior to New Zealand, the forwards not so much.

Whoever worked out this scheduling... 

Looks like the weather's turning after the match so any chance of a wet bog is pretty slim: http://www.metservice.com/towns-cities/auckland/auckland-central

Care 50/50 is a big loss. He was vying with Brown as England's most consistent player and for my mind he was the player to get that England attack cranking. Youngs I don't care too much for, if you'll excuse the pun.