Top three players in the world in each position (pre June tours)

I accept this debate is fairly arbitrary and can often produce unwanted arguments over national bias etc, especially in highly talented positions.

However getting a look at the general opinion before and after international windows also gives an interesting glimpse at how quickly opinions on certain players can change and how they have changed. So here it goes:

1. Ayerza, Healy, Mtawarira
2. Du Plessis, Moore, A Strauss
3. Figallo, Mas, Jones - A fit again Jannie Du Plessis should mount a big charge
4. Etzebeth, Launchbury, Retallick
5. Whitelock, Van Der Merwe, Lawes
6. Lobbe, Alberts, Gorgodze
7. Hooper, Louw, McCaw - Robshaw already very close and I'd back him to push harder in coming weeks
8. Read, Vermuelen, Picamoles

9. A Smith, Care, Du Preez - Murray has also been excellent. Shame Genia is still struggling
10. Cruden, Sexton, Barrett

11. Savea, North, Habana
12. Fofana, Nonu, De Villiers
13. C Smith, Davies, ? - Hoping for England's sake Tuilagi can fill that third spot!
14. B Smith, Huget, Pietersen
15. Folau, Brown, Le Roux - Hardest position and feel criminal leaving out Dagg and Kearney given what they're capable off. Already taken a cop out by consider Halfpenny amongst the injured to make life easier as well   

Players I'd consider up there in ability to the above but not considered due to injury or poor form:

Corbisiero
Cole
Genia
Cooper
Bowe
Carter
Halfpenny

Players who were considered who narrowly missed out:

Domingo
Hibbard, Hartley and Best
Jannie Du Plessis
O'Connell and Alun Wyn Jones
Messam, O'Brien and Wood
Robshaw
Parrise, Faletau and Billy Vunipola
Murray
Bowe and Cummins
Dagg and Kearney

These posts never end well as World Class is very subjective and even as a passionate Welsh fan I wouldn't have Jones in the top 3 at the moment.  He has struggled with the new laws and is not the force he once was, still World Class player but not in the top 3.

I would have Faletau in there though and yes I have my Welsh and Dragons specs on.

I would have Hartley in there definately. He's not a particularly well liked guy outside of England fans, but no one can deny his form this season has been top class. He does everything very well and even his carrying has returned.

Aside from that, well i could argue a few England players but that would probably just be English bias so ill resist.

It's a good list kc but I'd just have the top 3 in each position because, as I've said to Rugby Fan on another thread, I don't think world class should be thrown about and some of these top three players in my mind don't qualify as world class players but that's just me and my definition of world class.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I would have Hartley in there definately. He's not a particularly well liked guy outside of England fans, but no one can deny his form this season has been top class. He does everything very well and even his carrying has returned.

Aside from that, well i could argue a few England players but that would probably just be English bias so ill resist.

Its not a bad list right now but am hoping/expecting it to change a little over the next year.

It does raise an interesting question however. Do teams make players look world class or do world class players make winning teams? It is much easier to look 'world class' ( a phrase I actually hate btw) if you are operating in a team that is winning all the time.

[quote="lostinwales"]

GeordieFalcon wrote:

It does raise an interesting question however. Do teams make players look world class or do world class players make winning teams? It is much easier to look 'world class' ( a phrase I actually hate btw) if you are operating in a team that is winning all the time.

OR

Is it not easier to look world class in a team where everything evolves around you and you are the teams main talisman and star player - Parisse for eg?

From a rather biased Irish perspective I'd include SOB looking at his form before he got injured, outstanding for Leinster and MOTM against ABs etc. But I can't argue too much against Louw, McCaw and Hooper.

Adam Jones has struggled since the Lions tour and Nicolas Mas suffered big time against the Irish scrum.

Steffon Armitage as European player of the year would also qualify as world-class for me, even if he isn't playing for England.

The number of quality full-backs around at the moment is unbelievable, I can't think of any of the main Test nations who aren't strong there, even Italy and Scotland.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

It does raise an interesting question however. Do teams make players look world class or do world class players make winning teams? It is much easier to look 'world class' ( a phrase I actually hate btw) if you are operating in a team that is winning all the time.

OR

Is it not easier to look world class in a team where everything evolves around you and you are the teams main talisman and star player - Parisse for eg?

Yes I agree- the Parisse thing had struck me too. You dont know how he would work out playing for a different team and outside of the Lions its pretty much impossible to effectively take a player from one top level environment and see how he does in another

Conversely, outside centre and tight head prop look to be where there is a bit lacking at the moment

theslosty wrote:From a rather biased Irish perspective I'd include SOB looking at his form before he got injured, outstanding for Leinster and MOTM against ABs etc. But I can't argue too much against Louw, McCaw and Hooper.

Adam Jones has struggled since the Lions tour and Nicolas Mas suffered big time against the Irish scrum.

Steffon Armitage as European player of the year would also qualify as world-class for me, even if he isn't playing for England.

The number of quality full-backs around at the moment is unbelievable, I can't think of any of the main Test nations who aren't strong there, even Italy and Scotland.

This is another issue I have with the label world class. If Armitage plays only in Europe then in my mind he is European class on the rugby scene. I don't wish to imply he wouldn't be any good in the S15 or any good for England but when he doesn't measure up against all the world's best at the highest level then how can he be labelled world class?

But if he's playing against all the top S15 players in France and Europe, surely he is playing against the top players in the world.

Or certainly some of them.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But if he's playing against all the top S15 players in France and Europe, surely he is playing against the top players in the world.

Or certainly some of them.  

This is the problem for me. European club rugby is very competitive and of course there are top players who ply their trade there. But a French club team is not going to be able to prove itself in SA, NZ or Australia. Nor is it going to prove itself against test teams in the NH. To me it's similar to saying you can only base your opinion on SA or NZ players, for example, in their home tests. Again, I reiterate that it doesn't mean he can't play as equally good against other teams around the world, but neither can we assume that it will naturally happen. You look at the club form of players like Nick Easter or Steve Borthwick and if you'd never seen them play at test level you might be justified in thinking that they'd be pretty handy at test level. But until they actually prove that they can, in my view they can't be considered world class. The Chiefs won the double last year in the S15 but I don't think they have any world class players. Which is not to say that they don't have some very talented players.

I agree with your general point, but think you are doing Cruden and Retallick a disservice there Kia!

Everybody will have different views, i like doing stuff like this to see other people perspectives on what they class as world class. Seing as no one else is having a go I would go with:

1. Gethin Jenkins, Marcos Ayerza, Cian Healey
2. Bismark Du Plessis, Stephen Moore, Dane Coles
3. Davit Zirakashvili, Nicholas Mas, Owen Franks
4. Alyn Wyn Jones, Brodie Retallick, Bakkies Botha
5. Sam Whitelock, Flip Van Der Mewe, Geoff Parling
6. Willem Alberts, Mamuka Gorgodze, Juan martin Fernandez Lobbe
7. Steffon Armitage, Francois Louw, Richie Mccaw
8. Kieran Read, Duane Vermualen, Jamie Heaslip

9. Danny Care, Aaron Smith, Connor Murray
10. Johnny Wilkinson, Aaron Cruden, Johnny Sexton
11. George North, Cory Jane, Ben Smith
12. Jean De Villiers, Wesley Fofana, Matt Giteu
13. Conrad Smith, Jonathan Davies, Mathieu bastareaud
14. Julian Savea, Sitiveni Sivivatu, Tommy Bowe
15. Israel Folou, Willie le Roux, Mike Brown

Struggled with tight head and 13.

New Zealand = 13, South African = 8, Ireland =5 , England = 5, Wales = 4, France= 3 , Australia = 3, Argentina = 2, Georgia = 2

Mike Phillips .

You could add Messam to that list and I think they're all great players but the fact is none of those players has reached 30 caps yet (Messam will on Saturday) and we shouldn't use the word world class so lightly. It's not just a matter of longevity: I'd be more inclined to label Habana world class than George North but the same could not be said for Keven Mealamu and Bismarck Du Plessis. Why? Because to be labelled world class, at least in my view, I think you need to have stood out consistently on the world stage - that means test level. I look at kc's list and I see some very talented players but I see very few exceptional ones, which, by definition, is how it should be.

Anyway, that's all I'll say on the topic. Old misery guts will leave you to that list. I like some of your additions Jhamer and others I do not but I guess that's the point of these boards.

I'll ruck off now and leave you to it.  

Sorry for dumping on your thread kc.   

Not going to do a full list but from Ireland I'd press the claims for:

1 - Healy - defo
2 - Best - maybe
4 - POC
7 - SOB - based on pre-injury form
8 - Heaslip - Maybe
9 - Murray - defo
19 - Sexton - defo

TBH, hard to go beyond tha`t

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You could add Messam to that list and I think they're all great players but the fact is none of those players has reached 30 caps yet (Messam will on Saturday) and we shouldn't use the word world class so lightly. It's not just a matter of longevity: I'd be more inclined to label Habana world class than George North but the same could not be said for Keven Mealamu and Bismarck Du Plessis. Why? Because to be labelled world class, at least in my view, I think you need to have stood out consistently on the world stage - that means test level. I look at kc's list and I see some very talented players but I see very few exceptional ones, which, by definition, is how it should be.

Anyway, that's all I'll say on the topic. Old misery guts will leave you to that list. I like some of your additions Jhamer and others I do not but I guess that's the point of these boards.

I'll ruck off now and leave you to it.  

Sorry for dumping on your thread kc.   

Exactly, I understand some or even most people wouldn't have two the likes of Gethin Jenkins, Geoff parling, Davit or Alberts as there top 3 but different players attract to different people. For example, in King Carlos squad he has Tendia Mtawarira but i don't even consider him to be the best in SA and persoanlly think he is over rated. Peiple will feel the same with the Like of Paul James and Gethin Jenkins, Tony Woodcock and Ben franks etc.

The Saint wrote:Mike Phillips .

Wouldn't be near my top 10

There are numerous names in that OP I would politely disagree about but for the sake of time I'll only pick on one of the most obvious: Hooper at 7. Not been around long enough and, when he has played, not been consistent enough for me to remotely consider him world class. Warbs owned him in the second Lions test prior to his injury.

And no, I'm not so biased as to be suggesting that Warbs take his place. He suffers a serious injury roughly every three months and isn't around frequently enough to currently be considered world class either.

JH,

We dis-agree on this I know but for me Jenkins isn't No1 for Wales let alone in top 3 in the World.

the only welsh players pushing for a top three based on this season

Jonathan Davies
George North

Also wouldn't consider Picamoles currently. Maybe this time last year but teams have since learned to contain him more effectively and as a result his level of impact has gone down considerably.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You could add Messam to that list and I think they're all great players but the fact is none of those players has reached 30 caps yet (Messam will on Saturday) and we shouldn't use the word world class so lightly. It's not just a matter of longevity: I'd be more inclined to label Habana world class than George North but the same could not be said for Keven Mealamu and Bismarck Du Plessis. Why? Because to be labelled world class, at least in my view, I think you need to have stood out consistently on the world stage - that means test level. I look at kc's list and I see some very talented players but I see very few exceptional ones, which, by definition, is how it should be.

Anyway, that's all I'll say on the topic. Old misery guts will leave you to that list. I like some of your additions Jhamer and others I do not but I guess that's the point of these boards.

I'll ruck off now and leave you to it.  

Sorry for dumping on your thread kc.   

No worries at all Kia. Valid points made throughout and 'World Class' statement has been removed from the title as on review of the list I agree with that point.

Out of interest would you be more inclined to label someone such as Genia as world class rather than a guy like Aaron Smith? Smith is no doubt in better form and has performed very well for Highlanders and NZ - though with more inconsistency for the latter - and is at this minute the better player. However I wouldn't say he could have been stated as categorically the best SH in the world at any point (yet) where as I'd definitely hand Genia that accolade.

Bedford - I agree Jones looked strange when I typed it but it isn't exactly a position of strength world wide currently. Especially with Cole injured. Looking to the next few weeks I'm interested in seeing how Davey Wilson fares for England and if Mike Ross can keep improving for Ireland. Also hope to see Faumuina progress for NZ.

Geordie - Hartley has been great for us but is also in a very competitive position with BDP ahead of the rest IMO with A Strauss, Moore, Hartley, Hibbard and Best on a similar level all with pros and cons.

GavinDragon wrote:the only welsh players pushing for a top three based on this season

Jonathan Davies
George North

GD,

Would agree with that

Hammer,

Your selection proves people have different opinions because I wouldn't have Alan Wynn Jones or Geoff Parling in their national teams let alone have them in the top 3 in their position in the world.

England alone have 3/4 better options and I believe Wales have better than Jones also. But that's why these forums are here.... For debate  

The thing aswell though is how your players benefit the team.

Personally I don't think I would swap Robshaw or Tom Wood for anyone even though they might not be seen individually as in the top three, though I would say they're very close to it.

You have to add Jonny Gray to the list. He is absolutely outstanding. He makes huge numbers of tackles and carries every game and has missed 2 tackles all season. Only Scot in the reckoning tho. IMO the best in the world in the second row right now. too many folk wont have seen him play I bet to know how good he is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsoxEYEWC7M

Don't understand saying leaving players out due to injury why figallo is the most injured out of all of them.

Would swap Armitage for Louw.

king_carlos wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You could add Messam to that list and I think they're all great players but the fact is none of those players has reached 30 caps yet (Messam will on Saturday) and we shouldn't use the word world class so lightly. It's not just a matter of longevity: I'd be more inclined to label Habana world class than George North but the same could not be said for Keven Mealamu and Bismarck Du Plessis. Why? Because to be labelled world class, at least in my view, I think you need to have stood out consistently on the world stage - that means test level. I look at kc's list and I see some very talented players but I see very few exceptional ones, which, by definition, is how it should be.

Anyway, that's all I'll say on the topic. Old misery guts will leave you to that list. I like some of your additions Jhamer and others I do not but I guess that's the point of these boards.

I'll ruck off now and leave you to it.  

Sorry for dumping on your thread kc.   

No worries at all Kia. Valid points made throughout and 'World Class' statement has been removed from the title as on review of the list I agree with that point.

Out of interest would you be more inclined to label someone such as Genia as world class rather than a guy like Aaron Smith? Smith is no doubt in better form and has performed very well for Highlanders and NZ - though with more inconsistency for the latter - and is at this minute the better player. However I wouldn't say he could have been stated as categorically the best SH in the world at any point (yet) where as I'd definitely hand Genia that accolade.

Don't listen to me!   

The Genia Smith case is a good one to highlight. Genia was dropped entirely from the squad, which makes it impossible for me to describe him as world class. He certainly was but if you can't make your own team then I'm afraid any label of world class is impossible. Aaron Smith is coming along very nicely and he's in great form this Super season. Still too early for him to be considered along those lines but he's working in the right direction.

I'd have Heaslip and Toner in there. They've had outstanding seasons for Ireland and Leinster. Toner totally dominated Lawes twice this year.

Ashton and Trimble are in better form than a lot of the wingers on that list.

Bastereu would be the first 13 on the list for me.

Toner totally dominated Lawes twice this year.

Really?

Going by last year, Lawes, Marler, Hartley, Brown, Burrell, Robshaw, Vunipola, Care and Farrell should all be in or around that list.

rodders wrote:I'd have Heaslip and Toner in there. They've had outstanding seasons for Ireland and Leinster. Toner totally dominated Lawes twice this year.

Ashton and Trimble are in better form than a lot of the wingers on that list.

Bastereu would be the first 13 on the list for me.

The last time Basteraud played against Tuilagi he was just embarrasing. Just saying

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Toner totally dominated Lawes twice this year.

Really?

Wouldn't have said it if it wasn't true.

Ah ok, i must have missed those games then...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Hammer,

Your selection proves people have different opinions because I wouldn't have Alan Wynn Jones or Geoff Parling in their national teams let alone have them in the top 3 in their position in the world.

England alone have 3/4 better options and I believe Wales have better than Jones also. But that's why these forums are here.... For debate  

GF,

As you said it does prove how different peoples opinions are, Parling for me was outstanding on the Lions tour last year. Out of interest who would you pick in the 2nd rows for Wales, I know we have a few contenders in Charteris, Evans, Ball and Jones but for me AWJ is ahead of them so it would be one of them to partner him.

Parling was very good last year, but this year he has been injured alot and not shown the same form as the previous year. At Tigers Kitchener and Slater would probably be ahead of him and certainly will be next season.

As for Jones, i guess its just a personal thing mate. I just have never really been a fan of his. I would have any of the Wales guys above over him.

But thats just my opinion and obviously more qualified people would disagree with me.

GF,

I guess only time will tell if Parling gets back to his best after injury but he did surprise me and would have originally taken Launchbury over him.

AWJ does on times go missing (or did) think thats behind him now and sometimes the emotion got the better of him. I think he's matured better now but again only time will tell, for me him and Charteris are our best pairing with Ball snapping at their heels then Evans and then Davies.

AWJ would not get into the SA, NZ, Eng squads for me so not near the top three. Honest enough player but he has never had a big game against SA after always a fair amount of chat beforehand.

I'd have our pensioners Bakkis and Matfield, up and comming Eben and PSdT as well as underrated Flip van der Merwe over AWJ

As mentioned above....differing opinions always make these silly debates fun.

MMaaxx wrote:AWJ would not get into the SA, NZ, Eng squads for me so not near the top three. Honest enough player but he has never had a big game against SA after always a fair amount of chat beforehand.

I'd have our pensioners Bakkis and Matfield, up and comming Eben and PSdT as well as underrated Flip van der Merwe over AWJ

As mentioned above....differing opinions always make these silly debates fun.

Who's that Maaxx?

Agree about Flip van der Merwe. Quality player. Underrated too.

bluestonevedder wrote:

MMaaxx wrote:AWJ would not get into the SA, NZ, Eng squads for me so not near the top three. Honest enough player but he has never had a big game against SA after always a fair amount of chat beforehand.

I'd have our pensioners Bakkis and Matfield, up and comming Eben and PSdT as well as underrated Flip van der Merwe over AWJ

As mentioned above....differing opinions always make these silly debates fun.

Who's that Maaxx?

Agree about Flip van der Merwe. Quality player. Underrated too.

Pieter Steph du Toit.

Pieter Steph du Toit

ONe more

rodders wrote:I'd have Heaslip and Toner in there. They've had outstanding seasons for Ireland and Leinster. Toner totally dominated Lawes twice this year.

Bastereu would be the first 13 on the list for me.

Heaslip has looked pretty average at Int level imo. Toner has stepped up well but not a top 3, he certainly isn't better than Lawes. Basteraud is so far from being the best 13 in the world it's untrue.

Only fair to allow you to cristise my take, this is obviously pretty subjective.

1. Mtawarira, Ayerza, Healy
2. Du Plessis, Moore, Hartley
3. JdP, Zirakashvili, C Johnstone
4. Retallick, Launchbury, Etzebeth
5. Whitelock, Van Der Merwe, Lawes
6. Lobbe, Alberts, Gorgodze
7. McCaw, Louw, Brussow
8. Read, Vermuelen, Vuinipola

9. A Smith, Care, Du Preez
10. Cruden, Sexton, Barrett

11. Savea, North, Habana
12. Fofana, Nonu, De Villiers
13. C Smith, Davies, Tuilagi
14. B Smith, Huget, Pietersen
15. Folau, Brown, Le Roux

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Only fair to allow you to cristise my take, this is obviously pretty subjective.

1. Mtawarira, Ayerza, Healy
2. Du Plessis, Moore, Hartley
3. JdP, Zirakashvili, C Johnstone
4. Retallick, Launchbury, Etzebeth
5. Whitelock, Van Der Merwe, Lawes
6. Lobbe, Alberts, Gorgodze
7. McCaw, Louw, Brussow
8. Read, Vermuelen, Vuinipola

9. A Smith, Care, Du Preez
10. Cruden, Sexton, Barrett

11. Savea, North, Habana
12. Fofana, Nonu, De Villiers
13. C Smith, Davies, Tuilagi
14. B Smith, Huget, Pietersen
15. Folau, Brown, Le Roux

Is that Baldrick Retallick or his brother Kevin?

Top three players in the world in each position (pre June tours)?

Does Wales have that much depth?

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Only fair to allow you to cristise my take, this is obviously pretty subjective.

1. Mtawarira, Ayerza, Healy
2. Du Plessis, Moore, Hartley
3. JdP, Zirakashvili, C Johnstone
4. Retallick, Launchbury, Etzebeth
5. Whitelock, Van Der Merwe, Lawes
6. Lobbe, Alberts, Gorgodze
7. McCaw, Louw, Brussow
8. Read, Vermuelen, Vuinipola

9. A Smith, Care, Du Preez
10. Cruden, Sexton, Barrett

11. Savea, North, Habana
12. Fofana, Nonu, De Villiers
13. C Smith, Davies, Tuilagi
14. B Smith, Huget, Pietersen
15. Folau, Brown, Le Roux

Is that Baldrick Retallick or his brother Kevin?

Baldrick has a brother??????????
God help Blackadder