Joel Tomkins disappears back to Wigan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-league/27914844

He wanted England caps, he got 3 of them. Not the greatest league convert, it has to be said. Think he knew his International Union days were over shortly after the AIs last year. Still, a solid player and had to be half decent to make the England side, even if he was a stop-gap.

Saracens got the wrong tomkins IMO, Same would be more suited to RU than his brother, he's more skillful.

Let's hope that's the last on the RL converts for now (not including Sam Burgess who could be something), it just doesn't seem to be working.

Kyle Eastmond seems to be doing Ok.

Tomkins was a good centre he just wasn't a great one. He got some caps and played some big games with Sarries so it was hardly a wasted crossover.

gcBlues wrote:Saracens got the wrong tomkins IMO, Same would be more suited to RU than his brother, he's more skillful.

Let's hope that's the last on the RL converts for now (not including Sam Burgess who could be something), it just doesn't seem to be working.

So when you exclude the ones who have worked (or still could work) the league converts don't seem work.  

Joel Tomkins was a pretty handy club centre, but he should never have played for England.

I'm pretty easy on rugby league converts, there have been some great successes. The issue tends to come when they are parachuted into international rugby without being given an adequate opportunity to develop in club rugby. Tomkins wasn't in that category, it's just that his club performances for me didn't show enough to merit selection.

Probably fair to say that only a few converts have been great, with Eastmond looking like the most promising and Burgess a very interesting experiment, largely depending on where he plays I reckon.



Great converts
Folau, Robinson, SBW, Thorn, Tuqiri

Good converts
Eastmond, Rogers, Ashton, Myler

Jury is out
Hape, Burgess TBC, Sailor, Harris

Bad converts
Vanikolo, Paul, Walker, Sa, Gasnier, Farrell, Gower, Tomkins

For me the jury is not out on Hape. He was another handy club player who was promoted to the England side ahead of his capabilities.

I think Eastmond will find his way into the great converts category personally. Another good performance on Saturday should see him nail down the 12 jersey for the AIs, and hopefully persuade Bath to start him and leave him at 12. He's shown himself able to deal with the physical aspects of the position, his passing skills look decent and his footwork and accelaration are absolutely top drawer. It's been a while since England have had a real attacking threat in that channel, and I think Lancaster should focus on Eastmond and Tuilagi as his centre pairing of choice.

I realise it's early days, he's had only one cap, but it was an away game in NZ against Nonu. So far so good for Eastmond in my opinion, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing Burns and Eastmond have another crack at the weekend. Chris Ashton, restored on the wing, should be alive to the opportunities these two could create.

funnyExiledScot wrote:For me the jury is not out on Hape. He was another handy club player who was promoted to the England side ahead of his capabilities.

Funny how that seems to happen with many of the converts. Tomkins, Paul, Vanikolo all got thrown into the England team quicker than any other regular union player of equal, or perhaps more value might have.

Problem with Hape is who should have been in there instead? He was competent at international level but always only a stop gap.

Farrell ultimately was a failure but might not have been if he had crossed over younger, not had the car crash and toe problems, and found the right position sooner. I still remember that game he played for Sarries at FH vs the Scarlets where he just kicked them to distraction.

Eastmonds future depends on who bath see as their starting 12.

They seem to like Devoto, and obviously wait to decide where they're playing Burgess (hopefully 6 as an England fan)

He needs to be playing every game at 12 this season and if he is over looked for Devoto then he needs to consider his options and move to Newcastle   

Andy Farrell's issue was that he didn't have a natural position in union. He was a great league forward, but too slow to be a union back in my opinion. Unfortunately that's an issue you can't do much about.

As for Hape - other options at the time were Anthony Allen, Ricki Flutey, Manu Tuilagi even Toby Flood or Wilkinson at 12. My feeling was that Johnson picked him for his defence. Pretty much what Johnson felt backs were on the pitch to do......

funnyExiledScot wrote:Andy Farrell's issue was that he didn't have a natural position in union. He was a great league forward, but too slow to be a union back in my opinion. Unfortunately that's an issue you can't do much about.

As for Hape - other options at the time were Anthony Allen, Ricki Flutey, Manu Tuilagi even Toby Flood or Wilkinson at 12. My feeling was that Johnson picked him for his defence. Pretty much what Johnson felt backs were on the pitch to do......

Thanks for picking up on that. Yes Allen would have been a great shout. Flutey did well for us in a too short international career. So I go back on what I said. Hape was a dumb choice that should never have happened

Good luck to the lad, hope he settles back into League. It's a brave move switching codes and he did it at the right age to give himself the best chance of success, young enough too to resume his previous career if neccessary.

Burgess could be an altogether different prospect. While Joel was good club level material Burgess comes with outstanding skills but like most of us unsure where he'll fit.

Bathite, I'm surprised you consider the jury to be out on Hape and Harris, yet deem Farrell, Vainikolo and Paul as bad. Personally I'd have them the other way round. There's no doubt Farrell and Paul didn't live up to expectations of the RFU given their funding, but speaking for Paul he was a top class club centre (but let's not talk about FH or FB!!). Vainikolo was never going to continue the try scoring of league despite his 5 try debut haul, but he didn't have RFU funding and was only intended for club rugby, which he did pretty well given his lack of training from knee issues.

Harris had a huge amount of hype before the switch was fast tracked too quickly to the international stage and probably the expectations weighed too heavily on him. Hape wasn't as effective in Union, but he certainly was a solid club player.

I know you've focused on the AP, but surely Benji Marshall is the worst convert. An outstanding talent in League and a pretty woeful Union player!

Barrie-Jon Mather must shed a little tear when he's left out of these discussions...

Bathite wrote:Funny how that seems to happen with many of the converts. Tomkins, Paul, Vanikolo all got thrown into the England team quicker than any other regular union player of equal, or perhaps more value might have.

Don't think that really applies to centres. There can't be many English-qualified centres who didn't pick up at least one cap over the last 15 years, so I'm not sure the converts have been especially favoured. Even Woodward never really settled on a definitive partnership.

Vainikolo benefited from a long-standing English infatuation with large wingers. Cohen was a big success for us, until his mysterious loss of form, so we always seemed to be looking for someone to be like Lomu or Tuqiri. That's why Banahan got his caps, and I'm sure it's one reason they are experimenting with Tuilagi on the wing. The tragedy of Vainikolo is that he was selected by Brian Ashton, who you'd think would prefer a bit of finesse. The man he likely kept out of the team was clubmate James Simpson Daniel, who was in the form of his life at the time.

Rugby Fan,

Cohen wasnt huge when he was at his best though. He was a tall pacy and powerful winger but not a sheer beast like some of the power wingers.

Towards the WC he added WAY too much bulk and with that and his falling out of love for the game he looked a different player to that which scored tries for fun.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Rugby Fan,

Cohen wasnt huge when he was at his best though. He was a tall pacy and powerful winger but not a sheer beast like some of the power wingers.

Towards the WC he added WAY too much bulk and with that and his falling out of love for the game he looked a different player to that which scored tries for fun.

That sounds right. I wonder whether he bulked up himself, or on the suggestion of others. Can't help thinking England have lived far too long with the legacy of Lomu vs Underwood. I know most sides have been bulking up their wingers but we developed a phobia even as the likes of Dominici, Williams and Habana were around. It would be fascinating to see if we ever have occasion to play Eastmond and Wade in the same team.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Rugby Fan,

Cohen wasnt huge when he was at his best though. He was a tall pacy and powerful winger but not a sheer beast like some of the power wingers.

Towards the WC he added WAY too much bulk and with that and his falling out of love for the game he looked a different player to that which scored tries for fun.

That sounds right. I wonder whether he bulked up himself, or on the suggestion of others. Can't help thinking England have lived far too long with the legacy of Lomu vs Underwood. I know most sides have been bulking up their wingers but we developed a phobia even as the likes of Dominici, Williams and Habana were around. It would be fascinating to see if we ever have occasion to play Eastmond and Wade in the same team.

Just hope it wasnt his, erm, 'fan base'

GeordieFalcon wrote:Eastmonds future depends on who bath see as their starting 12.
He needs to be playing every game at 12 this season and if he is over looked for Devoto then he needs to consider his options and move to Newcastle   

Nice try GF but if he goes well again on Saturday then I expect those ridiculous green Cat cats from Walford Road would be interested if Bath continue to not select him (or not pass him the ball if they do). Burns, Eastmond & Tuilagi went pretty well in that first test in Auckland against opposition that is nearly up to AP level .

Plus it's closer to Manchester for if he feels the need to visit again.......

Well im not sure Tigers would be interested....as they have Allen well established at 12 and they have Javier Pohe who is Tuilagi mkII who should get games at 12 this season also.

If Eastmond isn't starting regularly next season then he really should force a move. I'm sure there's room in the Sarries salary cap - there always seems to be....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well im not sure Tigers would be interested....as they have Allen well established at 12 and they have Javier Pohe who is Tuilagi mkII who should get games at 12 this season also.

I can see Allen maybe going to France after this contract - he doesn't seem to be that high up the England pecking order for the 12 shirt with Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Barritt, Burrell (if tried at 12) all probably currently in front of him, plus two very good international prospects in Sam Hill (think that's his name) at Chiefs & Tom Stephenson at Saints who will see more game time next season.

Quins will take Eastmond, we play the kind of rugby he enjoys   Him outside Nick Evans and Danny Care would be fantastic. If only we still had Molenaar to play 13 as well.

Chill out lads, he only didn't get picked because of a discplinary issue. He'll be back in the team next year.

The Ford/Eastmond/Deveto/Joseph axis with Watson coming into the line

Three centre's? That's an interesting tactical lineup...

There seems to be a new 606 myth emerging that Eastmond didn't get game time at Bath this season. He started 16 of their 22 premiership games at IC. Injury kept him out of a couple at the beginning of the season, then he was disciplined for the rest after the incident at Sale in November and mouthing off to the ref after getting a yellow in the final weeks.

I assume the player has concluded that his England career is likely to be over, or very limited. The next World Cup seems beyond him. Does anyone know if he is going back because he prefers League or is it more lucrative than a Saracens career?

"This was a no-brainer," Tomkins told the Wigan Evening Post. "I enjoyed my time in union, but it didn't feel the same as playing league. I did something new and I'm glad I tried it, but I feel like I belong in rugby league. It's where I want to finish my career."

yappysnap wrote:Three centre's? That's an interesting tactical lineup...

It's called rotation

funnyExiledScot wrote:For me the jury is not out on Hape. He was another handy club player who was promoted to the England side ahead of his capabilities.

I think Eastmond will find his way into the great converts category personally. Another good performance on Saturday should see him nail down the 12 jersey for the AIs, and hopefully persuade Bath to start him and leave him at 12. He's shown himself able to deal with the physical aspects of the position, his passing skills look decent and his footwork and accelaration are absolutely top drawer. It's been a while since England have had a real attacking threat in that channel, and I think Lancaster should focus on Eastmond and Tuilagi as his centre pairing of choice.

I realise it's early days, he's had only one cap, but it was an away game in NZ against Nonu. So far so good for Eastmond in my opinion, and I'm very much looking forward to seeing Burns and Eastmond have another crack at the weekend. Chris Ashton, restored on the wing, should be alive to the opportunities these two could create.

Hindsight eh Exiled!

I thought Eastmond struggled a bit defensively in the 1st test, bumped off a few tackles etc but nothing that massively caught the eye. Complete different story yesterday, he was targeted and was pretty much a revolving door in that 1st half.

The AB's attacked him then spun it out wide, he was the achilles heel in our defence. Will we ever see him in an England shirt again?

I can't just blame Eastmond for that Pooly. The forwards were far too lazy and allowed NZ a free pass at him. I don't think any 2 cap International wants to have the whole NZ backline running at them unchecked at will. Especially when you're 13 doesn't lead the defence and your 10 is a fairly flimsy tackler.

I guess Eastmond was having to marshal the defence as well as try to put the tackles in on Sat which wouldn't help.

Very poor rugby player, he was what, 3rd in line at his club? He'll do better at league where bashing into the person in front of you is enough.