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Why doesn't England cheat their way to World Cup Glory?

I'm serious, I watch teams getting into the later stages of world cups and I feel gutted that England try and play fair rather than kick, dive, elbow and deceive our way through the group and knockout stages.

Lets be honest would anyone really feel disappointed if we got to a QF/SF or Final by conning an under experienced Fifa Ref?

I wouldn't, maybe its time we changed our approach of trying to bore the opposition to death and cheat, like the rest of them.

Whoever is being serious about accepting diving as a way to win. Go and sit in the corner for a bit.

super_realist wrote:Indeed, I think the expectation some people have of England reaching QF's and Semi's is like hoping Tommy Haas will do the same in A Tennis Grand Slam, might happen occasionally, given favourable draws and a bit of "luck" but not something which is likely.

It's good that most appreciate England are a second tier nation, perhaps lower, but the Tyldsley like hype that comes around ("this is the team England might have played if they'd come second, etc etc) is completely nauseating. Why are people so unrealistic?

A very intelligent post. England are not that good second or third tier. The sooner people realize this the happier they will be. There is a reason why there is an inquest after every major tournament England participates in (
euros and WC) and it isn't because every England team underachieves. It is because their fans can't get it through their heads that England isn't very good and they finish just about where they deserve to finish.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Like the 28 caps that the distinctly average Senna has for Spain or the 52 that Hitzlsperger has for Germany.

I would take Senna and Hitzlsperger over Aaron lennon every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lennon can't pass, can't shoot, and can't tackle. I don't think the same can be said of the other two player mentioned. Oh but he is pretty fast.

Senna could tackle fairly well but that was about it while Hitzlsperger was just pretty crap all round hence why he couldn't cement a place in any of the English teams he played for.

Like I said only Tottenham think that Aaron lennon is a player. Personally, if I was a manager I wouldn't play him on any team above a championship level. The fact that he is an England international is a sheer emabarrasment. He isn't one third the footballer Landon Donavon is and Klinsmann didn't even bring him to the WC.

With the right manager and the acceptance that cheating is part of the game (very under used tactic by England teams) there is no reason why England can't be a team that others would fear playing in world cups and Euros.

We all know that shocks do happen in Football as with the right tactics, determination and a bit of luck results can go your way, that is why the game is loved the world over.

I for one don't think England can win a world cup, but that doesn't mean we can't get to the knockout stages of competitions, then you may only be one decision away from a result.

England lost to two of the only five nations with more wins against us than we've beat them. No shame in going out. It was still more enjoyable than 2010.

I'd rather be from an honest minnow nation than have England win the World Cup by cheating.

Lets be honest a win is a win.

I would rather win by conning a Ref than never winning it again.  

Then you are the worst kind of person

CFCNick wrote:Then you are the worst kind of person

Even Rolf Harris would be disgusted

Rolf wouldn't go down that easy!

Duty281 wrote:I remember how embarrassing Portugal were against England in 2006; I would rather lose every single time than play like they did. Utterly shameful.

But let me be clear - I'm not saying England are whiter than white, but they do behave with a great deal more honesty and integrity than a lot of teams. A chief example would be when Godin should have been sent off...any other team would have surrounded and intimidated the referee. England didn't do that, and well done to them.

I hope it lasts. I don't want England sinking to the depths of Uruguay and Portugal in attempts to win.

Yup I remember that too, Ronaldo red carding Rooney was the worst   

But the fact like others mentioned England soccer team as some flaws in the foundation itself and the team is really not good enough to make it to round of 16 let alone QF, and the reality got reflected.

CFCNick wrote:Then you are the worst kind of person

Lol

What are you on about?

A wins a win.


But then you did wish people would die before changed your previous post, so for you to judge and take the high ground is taking it a bit far little man.  

Scrumpy wrote:

CFCNick wrote:Then you are the worst kind of person

Lol

What are you on about?

A wins a win.


But then you did wish people would die before changed your previous post, so for you to judge and take the high ground is taking it a bit far little man.  

Are the same people who want to win football matches by cheating ok with Qatar allegedly winning the world cup bid by cheating (through bribes)?

What about if England won football matches by match fixing and bribing the officials, would that be ok as well? after all a win is a win...

What about in boxing or ufc, is it acceptble to cheat by taking PEDs? After all a win is a win...

But England would be doing the same as every other team left in the World Cup.

Since when has play acting for a penalty or getting a man booked the same as taking bribes?

The clues in the title!

Scrumpy wrote:But England would be doing the same as every other team left in the World Cup.

Since when has play acting for a penalty or getting a man booked the same as taking bribes?

The clues in the title!

Because both are acts of cheating to gain an advantage over your opponent.....

I suppose you think Germany and Austria did nothing wrong when they 'cheated' in 1982 and fixed the match so that both would go through? After all anything for the win...

Cheating shows how passionate you are. England never show passion at all anymore. So yeah i think we should cheat more

I don't wish for England to cheat.
I do though think they can take more advantage of situations to which there is a difference.
When pressing high up the pitch ensure that if the opposition breakaway that they're cynically tackled/fouled early on to avoid a far riskier and potential red card/goal at the other end. Like Robben and Ronaldo look for players going for tackles and invite them to get free kicks/penalties etc.

But is it cheating?

It's part of the game like it or not and if everyone else is doing it then why not England?

By not doing it more often we start these tournaments at a disadvantage!   

I bet the German players, coaching staff and fans would be happy for one of their players to cheat in there current situation ( extra time vs Algeria)

Scrumpy wrote:

CFCNick wrote:Then you are the worst kind of person

Lol

What are you on about?

A wins a win.


But then you did wish people would die before changed your previous post, so for you to judge and take the high ground is taking it a bit far little man.  

A moderator changed it. I didn't. And I still hold that opinion.

Yeh right!

Man up?

Scrumpy wrote:With the right manager and the acceptance that cheating is part of the game (very under used tactic by England teams) there is no reason why England can't be a team that others would fear playing in world cups and Euros.

We all know that shocks do happen in Football as with the right tactics, determination and a bit of luck results can go your way, that is why the game is loved the world over.

I for one don't think England can win a world cup, but that doesn't mean we can't get to the knockout stages of competitions, then you may only be one decision away from a result.

Ridiculous, do countries fear playing England's peers like Sweden, Russia, Greece, Croatia and the Czech Republic? Not particularly. They'll give them due respect but the likes of Holland, Argentina, Brazil, Germany etc know all they have to do is play to about 90% of their capability and most often they will beat England, there is nothing to suggest that England will ever be a team for which true tournament contenders will ever be "feared"

At least we've got the Yanks support when it comes to diving.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28100892

Derbymanc wrote:At least we've got the Yanks support when it comes to diving.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28100892

Which is highly ironic as Klinsmann is their manager!

super_realist wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:With the right manager and the acceptance that cheating is part of the game (very under used tactic by England teams) there is no reason why England can't be a team that others would fear playing in world cups and Euros.

We all know that shocks do happen in Football as with the right tactics, determination and a bit of luck results can go your way, that is why the game is loved the world over.

I for one don't think England can win a world cup, but that doesn't mean we can't get to the knockout stages of competitions, then you may only be one decision away from a result.

Ridiculous, do countries fear playing England's peers like Sweden, Russia, Greece, Croatia and the Czech Republic? Not particularly. They'll give them due respect but the likes of Holland, Argentina, Brazil, Germany etc know all they have to do is play to about 90% of their capability and most often they will beat England, there is nothing to suggest that England will ever be a team for which true tournament contenders will ever be "feared"

Partly true but more often than not we get knocked out on penalties, of the past 6 world cups we've entered we've been knocked out by that method three times. The same is also true of the Euro's where we've been knocked out 3 times in the last four tournaments and strangely got knocked out because of a last minute penalty in the other. 60% of the time these teams don't actually beat us.

There is also no evidence that cheating leads to greater success. These events are still won by primarily a very small number of teams, whilst varying degrees of cheating persist amongst other teams.

There is nothing to suggest England would be any less of a failure by adopting cheating methods.

You'd think, from what we hear that England are the only team that get knocked out on penalties, yet it happens to lots of teams.

'There is also no evidence that cheating leads to greater success.'

Umm I think you find there is!

1986 Eng vs Arg.

Scrumpy wrote:'There is also no evidence that cheating leads to greater success.'

Umm I think you find there is!

1986 Eng vs Arg.

And the 1978 World Cup...

Then there was Rivaldo's theatrics in 2002, I would say that Neuer cheated in 2010 as well, there are countless examples of teams cheating and winning.

Come on, we're talking about a tiny number of cheating events in a sea of cheating events.

First of all, you need to actually be a decent team that would challenge anyway. Do you actually think England would have beaten Argentina in 86, even without the first Maradona goal?

Saying England could win an event by cheating is like saying Croatia, Sweden, Russia or Switzerland could, and how ridiculous does that sound?

Cheating doesn't turn a team which had no hope to begin with into a tournament winning team, certainly not one as low down the tournament pecking order as England traditionally are.

Greece won the Euro's so it's not all that ridiculous at all, it's not a tiny number of situations where cheating has led to a team winning it's a vast problem throughout the sport.

We have no idea how the game in 86 would have panned out because the ref was incompetent enough to allow the 'goal' to stand.

Ok, perhaps it was unfair to categorise a team like Greece amongst losers like England.

Like i've already pointed out we don't usually lose when we get knocked out.

You can't blame anyone else, or lack of cheating for being gash at penalties, whilst the teams that "fail" to beat England are hardly "cheating" in order to NOT be able to beat them are they?

Come on SR just admit you were wrong, Cheating has and will continue to benefit teams until something is done about it.

Your idea of Greater Success is winning the trophy, that's not nessarily the nations view.

Success for Wales and Scotland (plus many other minnows) is qualification.
Englands should have been second round (If we'd have surrounded the ref against Costa Rica we might have ;-)

And the biggie, if it didn't at least assist teams in the achieving their own ideas of success, nobody would do it.

There is no way i'd want any team I follow in any sport, at any level of competition, to cheat to win/get further.

Derbymanc wrote:Come on SR just admit you were wrong, Cheating has and will continue to benefit teams until something is done about it.

Your idea of Greater Success is winning the trophy, that's not nessarily the nations view.

Success for Wales and Scotland (plus many other minnows) is qualification.
Englands should have been second round (If we'd have surrounded the ref against Costa Rica we might have ;-)

And the biggie, if it didn't at least assist teams in the achieving their own ideas of success, nobody would do it.

Perhaps, but it wouldn't necessarily enable England to win any event. There is a chasm between England and true contenders winning a tournament and a little bit of cheating won't do anything.

England we already OUT by the time they played Costa Rica, so what's your point?

I meant Uruguay, got that wrong (see it's easy to admit you were wrong   )

Neither will playing the best football enable any other team to win any event. (See Greece as mentioned above.)

It will be a while before England win anything due to the way our Youth is brought through.

But you stated that there was no evidence that cheating leads to greater success, it was pointed out above that there was and that success for certain teams is different than what it is for others.

There's no evidence it would help England, I should have said, as they stink in general, and their level is QF at absolute best.

When you're getting knocked out on penalties a bit of cheating is obviously going to make a difference.

Of course there's evidence, if we dived a bit more, waved cards in the refs face a bit more, generally acted like teams in the Premier League then we might get more of an advantage from the Refs, Uruguays player could have been sent off which could have led to us beating them and going through to the second round. Considering the Head of the FA didn't expect us to get through that could have been considered a success.

You seem to have a really anti-English attitude that I just don't get.

I wouldn't say we stunk out our first 2 games (Costa Rica was a glorified friendly,) but I wouldn't say we'd win either. It's good to have faith in your team though otherwise what's the point in even playing

Although England do dive and cheat, they do not do it to the levels of Brazil or others. Sinking to this level will not improve England as a team.

I actually find it disgusting, especially when its done by great players who you feel take that easy option when if they stayed on their feet may do better. The biggest cheats around are the ones that dive to get other professionals sent off. That sickens me.

Derbymanc wrote:Of course there's evidence, if we dived a bit more, waved cards in the refs face a bit more, generally acted like teams in the Premier League then we might get more of an advantage from the Refs, Uruguays player could have been sent off which could have led to us beating them and going through to the second round. Considering the Head of the FA didn't expect us to get through that could have been considered a success.

You seem to have a really anti-English attitude that I just don't get.

I wouldn't say we stunk out our first 2 games (Costa Rica was a glorified friendly,) but I wouldn't say we'd win either. It's good to have faith in your team though otherwise what's the point in even playing

When has a ref EVER given a decision based on the histrionics of a team?

I'm not anti English at all, i'm very fond of England and the English, but not being English means I am merely realistic in regards to England's place in World Football. They aren't a big team, they aren't challengers, they aren't feared, they are simply tournament make weight, and it's about time people stopped expecting them to be anything other than that or to reach latter stages and having some sort of post tournament post mortem as to how England have some how underperformed.

They got exactly what they deserved out of a tough group, in a tough country.
They haven't learnt anything in 30 years, and now people are dredging the underneath of a barrel suggesting all England need to do is to start cheating and lo and behold, they'll start making QF's again.

England aren't owed success, and if you don't have the players, tactics or tournament mentality, it doesn't matter what you do, you'll always fail.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:When you're getting knocked out on penalties a bit of cheating is obviously going to make a difference.

DOesn't it work both ways? Surely the team that "can't" beat England could cheat to win too?

super_realist wrote:
Saying England could win an event by cheating is like saying Croatia, Sweden, Russia or Switzerland could, and how ridiculous does that sound?

only you are saying that!



But what if England:

Dived vs. Italy and won a penalty and drew, - happy days.
Surrounded the ref and got the Uruguay Captain sent off and injured Suarez by testing his knee, - Result!
Vs. Costa Rica what if a bit of play acting here and there wins a few free kicks and one goes in! - Back of the net.

It’s ridiculous to say that cheating couldn't give you an advantage.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

socal1976 wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Like the 28 caps that the distinctly average Senna has for Spain or the 52 that Hitzlsperger has for Germany.

I would take Senna and Hitzlsperger over Aaron lennon every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Lennon can't pass, can't shoot, and can't tackle. I don't think the same can be said of the other two player mentioned. Oh but he is pretty fast.

Senna could tackle fairly well but that was about it while Hitzlsperger was just pretty crap all round hence why he couldn't cement a place in any of the English teams he played for.

 
In fairness der Hmmer made 99 appearences for us from 01-05.
 
He certainly wasn't crap. Was decent enough, not brilliant, but decent.

Scrumpy wrote:

super_realist wrote:
Saying England could win an event by cheating is like saying Croatia, Sweden, Russia or Switzerland could, and how ridiculous does that sound?

only you are saying that!



But what if England:

Dived vs. Italy and won a penalty and drew,  - happy days.
Surrounded the ref and got the Uruguay Captain sent off and injured Suarez by testing his knee,  - Result!
Vs. Costa Rica what if a bit of play acting here and there wins a few free kicks and one goes in! - Back of the net.


It’s ridiculous to say that cheating couldn't give you an advantage.

It's all pointless conjecture, if's and but's.

What if Italy had dived once more and beaten you 3-1.

Trouble with those England fans that pipe dream is they don't see the other side of the coin.

England just hasn’t mastered the "dark arts" of international football. Even when England try to cheat, they aren't any good at it (eg. Gerrard trying to win a penalty against Italy).
Having said that, the reason for England's failings is simply not being good enough. Of course, there is also the nurturing of players at grassroot levels where pace/athleticism is favoured over intelligence and creativity.

I personally would much rather that Fifa took retrospective action against diving players. It would take some time before all the players stopped but it would improve football no end if diving was eradicated.

The problem is not the teams or the players, its a spineless organisation run by a buffoon.

SR you said that cheating didn't help teams prosper and get further in a competition, everyone has shown you examples of where that exact thing has and as per you refuse to see where your wrong.

The question asked was should England start trying to take advantage of the cheating that goes on by most of the other countries and start teaching our players how to do it too.

the answer unfortunately is Yes as it's something that isn't going away any time soon. I would much prefer the governing bodies take retrospective action and ban any cheating player but as that's an easy option that hasn't been done I'm guessing the only people that care is the fans when it happens to them.

As I said too, if you don't want your team to do well then you shouldn't follow the sport too closely, you could also ignore the fans with opinions that don't sit the same as yours and stop insulting everything else, it makes you look really petty (like a CS lite)

and I conceded that it may do, but to suggest it would help a dismal team like England improve from their current hopeless position is rather hopeful and straw clutching.

I simply don't believe that England have this corinthian spirit or "fair play" attitude that people paint them with.

They are just as vocal, appeal just as much and even dive more than other teams that are traditionally thought of as greater divers, so for all this, it hasn't helped England one bit, because they are still out, despite it all.

There's a big difference to wanting your team to do well, than expecting them or asserting that the team is big, feared, respected and deserves to or has some sort of manifest destiny to do well.
THe football world owes England nothing at all, so it's about time people started accepting their position in the global game as a 2nd or possibly 3rd tier nation.