Welsh rugby: best future outcome

Hi everyone. I'd like to hear people's idea on how pro rugby in Wales could best go forward from where it is now. Solutions only please. There's a fine thread on what's going on in Wales in the present and why it is in a crisis, this one is for your vision for how to really make pro rugby a great success there and what this would look like.

Perhaps I'm overly optimistic but in my opinion, in a country where rugby is popular and has so many talented players there must be a way for this pro aspect of the game to thrive. I'd like to hear your ideas on how this can be accomplished.

International rugby is popular. It's supposed to be dwindling in schools and certainly after leaving school (according to Josh Lewsey)

That's sort of my point Hammer. It's the pro game that has the potential for success. Rugby overall is popular in Wales. The schools game may not be as popular as it was but Wales still produces many fine players each year. It's not like other countries where rugby doesn't have a high profile or there is little love for the game.

For pro rugby to work to its best they have to find some way to get the punters to go anywhere but the MS. That is hard with the tribalism that Wales has in it's rugby support, but surely not impossible?

I can only see two options for long term success of pro rugby in Wales:

Option 1 - Regions.

Anyone who thinks that Wales has regions is sadly deluded. Currently there are 4 super clubs. Instead the WRU need to own 4 regions spread geographically with the star players spread evenly and actually playing (How many Pro12 matches has Warburton played in the last 36 months?). They need to instate and enforce a rule whereby only those players in Wales will ber selected for the country - which should help keep wage bills down. In the end everything is about creating a support structure for the National team. To be eligible to buy tickets for the MS, spectators must have attended regional matches. Perhaps even sell the tickets as bundles.


or

2 Clubs

Go back to the club system. Top 6 clubs to play in a new Anglo-Welsh League (with two 10 team conferences). Worst performing Welsh side have a trwo legged play-off vs the Welsh Premiership winners. WRU instigate and stick to a similar policy to RFU when it comes to overseas players. WRU manage the workload of senior players - but have to allow them to play often enough for fans to see them.



Neither solution will happen. WRU want regions, but want sugar daddies to pay. WRU will never, ever, countenance a competition with PRL.

I really can't see an outcome/solution anyway or any day soon out of this mess.

I'm sure there are many more than 2 solutions.

It's a bit like "there are only two types of people in this world. People who think there are only two types of people in this world and people who don't"

St john,

There are but its the old adage of plaesing some of the people some of the time etc etc. Whatever the outcome then there will be certain fans, clubs or village who won't be happy with it for one reason or another.

LondonTiger wrote:

Anyone who thinks that Wales has regions is sadly deluded.

Great innit. Spent the last 11 years pretending we have though. I tried explaining the set up to a Cardiff City fan colleague of mine once. He thought it was all a bit mad.
But back to topic, for Welsh rugby to move forward we first of all need transparency, openness and honesty. Over to you RRW. Tell us the details, warts and all, of why a deal has been so difficult to come by. We all deserve to know.

I think anyone who really thought we had true Regions were deluding themselves but some have done more than others to try and embrace what we have got.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think anyone who really thought we had true Regions were deluding themselves but some have done more than others to try and embrace what we have got.

Embrace is a two way thing though and telling Ponty fans to embrace Cardiff was/is bonkers. Saying that, this is a strength we have in Wales ie passion for our clubs. We should be utilising this, but by pretending we have all inclusive regions has torn us apart. I tell you what, if Cardiff Blues announced tomorrow that they are not a region and are just Cardiff, I bet the majority of supporters of both clubs would breathe a sigh of relief.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I really can't see an outcome/solution anyway or any day soon out of this mess.  

If RRW elaborated on the "constant shifts and manipulation in the WRU position" we may get a solution pretty damn quick, so spill the beans RRW.

St John The Enforcer wrote:I'm sure there are many more than 2 solutions.

Maybe, but I suspect they would all just be variations on either doing regions properly with them owned by WRU and players centrally contracted - or doing Clubs properly.

The current situation will see the "Regions" continue to haemorrhage players. not just the established ones but the future stars like Matthew Morgan and Owen Williams. Some will choose to put there head in the sands and say "3 Grand Slams, it is all good". (Similar to English fans harking back to 2003).

LondonTiger wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:I'm sure there are many more than 2 solutions.

Maybe, but I suspect they would all just be variations on either doing regions properly with them owned by WRU and players centrally contracted - or doing Clubs properly.

The current situation will see the "Regions" continue to haemorrhage players. not just the established ones but the future stars like Matthew Morgan and Owen Williams. Some will choose to put there head in the sands and say "3 Grand Slams, it is all good". (Similar to English fans harking back to 2003).

Like Rog did at that BBC Question Time show. The bloke has to go.

Best outcome - total and utter restructuring with a major broom put around the place. Not enough money in the game for clubs, there is enough money for about three regions of centrally contracted players to go into cross border comps. Get rid of RL & DP, let the benefactors go honourably or keep their hand in their local clubs with some stake in the game, eg sponsorship deals or some acceptable concession. A straightforward league structure, with two tiers - semi-pro with salary cap, amateur tier with regional divisions. Regions governance should be in hands of club reps in the region - the higher the division the more votes the club should get. Stop the tail wagging the dog.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Best outcome - total and utter restructuring with a major broom put around the place. Not enough money in the game for clubs, there is enough money for about three regions of centrally contracted players to go into cross border comps. Get rid of RL & DP, let the benefactors go honourably or keep their hand in their local clubs with some stake in the game, eg sponsorship deals or some acceptable concession. A straightforward league structure, with two tiers - semi-pro with salary cap, amateur tier with regional divisions. Regions governance should be in hands of club reps in the region - the higher the division the more votes the club should get. Stop the tail wagging the dog.

No need for "total and utter restructuring". It would cost anyway. Keep it the same I say, but call a spade a spade and openly celebrate stuff like 9-3 etc. Celebrate the battle of Brive too. Stop pretending in other words.

LondonTiger wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:I'm sure there are many more than 2 solutions.

Maybe, but I suspect they would all just be variations on either doing regions properly with them owned by WRU and players centrally contracted - or doing Clubs properly.

That's a bit like saying "there may be more than 2 types of politics but they are all variations on either communism or capitalism"

I just hope that something can be sorted for the good of all rugby in Wales and beyond. I have some sympathy for the Regions and for the clubs below them, but I also have some sympathy for the union if not perhaps the current leadership so much.

People (like you and me) looking in from the outside, are only seeking solutions based on our own ideas and how rugby operates in our countries. What it really needs is a group of Welsh people from all sides to start rowing in the same direction and find some common ground.

Surely there are WRU people who watch and support Regions and can empathise, and surely most regional supporters also support the national team. All it takes is a few people determined to see the other side.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Best outcome - total and utter restructuring with a major broom put around the place. Not enough money in the game for clubs, there is enough money for about three regions of centrally contracted players to go into cross border comps. Get rid of RL & DP, let the benefactors go honourably or keep their hand in their local clubs with some stake in the game, eg sponsorship deals or some acceptable concession. A straightforward league structure, with two tiers - semi-pro with salary cap, amateur tier with regional divisions. Regions governance should be in hands of club reps in the region - the higher the division the more votes the club should get. Stop the tail wagging the dog.

No need for "total and utter restructuring". It would cost anyway. Keep it the same I say, but call a spade a spade and openly celebrate stuff like 9-3 etc. Celebrate the battle of Brive too. Stop pretending in other words.

and sadly watch the clubs go bust again. Been there, done it, bulloxed it up. We need something that can survive from its' income and not depend on the goodwill and deep pockets of rich men. In terms of the income at the pro end of welsh rugby, most people reckon 3 sides. My point is that these need to be run from the bottom up, not the top down. The WRU is the clubs and not the executive - that is part of the current problem. Get the business folk in to run the money side by all means, but let the local rugby community make the rugby decisions.

I'm sick of seeing the governing body acting like autocratic politicians, club owners acting like self interested businesses and seeing amateur minnow club officers having the same clout in running the game as clubs that have spent their entire history at the top of the welsh game. The current arrangement is a horlicks and as far as I'm concerned needs a total shake up. Going back to the pre 2003 club days is suicidal .... in my humble opinion  

St John The Enforcer wrote: All it takes is a few people determined to see the other side.

Reminds me of Cardiff City stadium. That was painful. And costly.

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Best outcome - total and utter restructuring with a major broom put around the place. Not enough money in the game for clubs, there is enough money for about three regions of centrally contracted players to go into cross border comps. Get rid of RL & DP, let the benefactors go honourably or keep their hand in their local clubs with some stake in the game, eg sponsorship deals or some acceptable concession. A straightforward league structure, with two tiers - semi-pro with salary cap, amateur tier with regional divisions. Regions governance should be in hands of club reps in the region - the higher the division the more votes the club should get. Stop the tail wagging the dog.

No need for "total and utter restructuring". It would cost anyway. Keep it the same I say, but call a spade a spade and openly celebrate stuff like 9-3 etc. Celebrate the battle of Brive too. Stop pretending in other words.

and sadly watch the clubs go bust again.

Llanelli is a great word. It's absolutely unique and is magnificently Welsh. We should promote it big time coz England and France love it.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:Best outcome - total and utter restructuring with a major broom put around the place. Not enough money in the game for clubs, there is enough money for about three regions of centrally contracted players to go into cross border comps. Get rid of RL & DP, let the benefactors go honourably or keep their hand in their local clubs with some stake in the game, eg sponsorship deals or some acceptable concession. A straightforward league structure, with two tiers - semi-pro with salary cap, amateur tier with regional divisions. Regions governance should be in hands of club reps in the region - the higher the division the more votes the club should get. Stop the tail wagging the dog.

No need for "total and utter restructuring". It would cost anyway. Keep it the same I say, but call a spade a spade and openly celebrate stuff like 9-3 etc. Celebrate the battle of Brive too. Stop pretending in other words.

and sadly watch the clubs go bust again.

Llanelli is a great word. It's absolutely unique and is magnificently Welsh. We should promote it big time coz England and France love it.

You dont need to tell me that    but we went bust. How many times is debatable really, and we're still struggling really badly. Neath went bust - properly. Swansea were damn close and there have been others. Wales cant afford 8 or so fully pro clubs. I suspect we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that one. Dont get me wrong - I dont want to see a smiling Roger Lewis unveiling new WRU regions as if he were the saviour of welsh rugby. But if the governance of the WRU was sorted out and a sensible well costed proposal was put forward for 3 or so representative teams with our best players on CC's I could live with that as our fully Pro tier ... first put Pickering and Lewis on the first rocket to the sun and then we'll discuss eh?

Well the club model didn't work for Wales and the super-club/region hybrid doesn't seem to be working. On the up side that's two approaches crossed off the list. Or will the present system work if some changes are made?

Intotouch wrote:Well the club model didn't work for Wales and the super-club/region hybrid doesn't seem to be working. On the up side that's two approaches crossed off the list. Or will the present system work if some changes are made?

Cardiff being Cardiff will work. Llanelli being Llanelli will work. Newport being Newport will definitely work. Knickers to the Swansea lot.

1. Current CEO resigns / sacked by board. Regions and new WRU regime finally agree a fair participation agreement (the going rate is circa £11m per year, currently Welsh regions receive £6.7m a year). (Time is not on our side for this one though)

2. Regions fail to agree a PA by Friday so sever ties with the Union in regards to funding and player release. Player release is then not paid for but is the regulatory 5 days as the IRB states. The test players at the Welsh regions are not released outside of any test window. The South Africa game in November is then scrapped. WRU CEO resigns as a result. Celtic rugby thrown up into the air as a result of ensuing mess. And the regions enter the English league structure at Championship level. Pie in the sky, but we can all dream.

Chunky Norwich wrote:1. Current CEO resigns / sacked by board. Regions and new WRU regime finally agree a fair participation agreement (the going rate is circa £11m per year, currently Welsh regions receive £6.7m a year). (Time is not on our side for this one though)

2. Regions fail to agree a PA by Friday so sever ties with the Union in regards to funding and player release. Player release is then not paid for but is the regulatory 5 days as the IRB states. The test players at the Welsh regions are not released outside of any test window. The South Africa game in November is then scrapped. WRU CEO resigns as a result. Celtic rugby thrown up into the air as a result of ensuing mess. And the regions enter the English league structure at Championship level. Pie in the sky, but we can all dream.

sad state if the ambitions of Welsh club rugby is to settle for a place in the championship in England. i have not doubt that fans and players have better ambitions than this

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

sad state if the ambitions of Welsh club rugby is to settle for a place in the championship in England. i have not doubt that fans and players have better ambitions than this

Yup. That's what it' come to.

WRU buy out the regions and gain proper control of Welsh rugby.

GoodinTightSpaces wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:1. Current CEO resigns / sacked by board. Regions and new WRU regime finally agree a fair participation agreement (the going rate is circa £11m per year, currently Welsh regions receive £6.7m a year). (Time is not on our side for this one though)

2. Regions fail to agree a PA by Friday so sever ties with the Union in regards to funding and player release. Player release is then not paid for but is the regulatory 5 days as the IRB states. The test players at the Welsh regions are not released outside of any test window. The South Africa game in November is then scrapped. WRU CEO resigns as a result. Celtic rugby thrown up into the air as a result of ensuing mess. And the regions enter the English league structure at Championship level. Pie in the sky, but we can all dream.

sad state if the ambitions of Welsh club rugby is to settle for a place in the championship in England. i have not doubt that fans and players have better ambitions than this

Maybe but a whole bunch have signed for Bristol with Adam Jones rumoured to be taking up the opportunity offered to.

profitius wrote:WRU buy out the regions and gain proper control of Welsh rugby.

They don't have the financial clout to do so, which is why the Regions have offered it to them. If they wanted to 'buy' control of the blues, they will no doubt have to pay off the 'interest free loans' the blues have received from Peter Thomas. That will be a sizeable amount just for 1 region, the WRU couldn't/can't afford it and thus trying to starve them to death rather than take them over. It's easier for them to force the regions close the liquidation and start new than to take them over directly and pay people off.

Personally I don't think that the problems will ever be solved, at best there will be an ongoing papering over the cracks process until eventually the clubs, the WRU or RWW blinks first.
If we assume that the current WRU board are not fit for purpose who would replace them - Moffett ? A couple of ex-playing greats who don't mind their reputations being destroyed by the Welsh media and some of the rugby fans as every decision they make is measured against their previous clubs - "See I told you he'd want Scarlets to get more money and not Cardiff - forking Terk"..etc? The chief Druid of the Esitoffod? An outsider with no axe to grind but willing to make unpleasant decisions?
Looking at it in the cold hard light of day, for whatever reason Wales cannot sustain more than four professional teams and financial logic dictates that these teams will have to be based in the main conurbations, so that's three in Swansea, Newport and Cardiff plus one.
That leaves one professional place left at present Scarlets with possibly two options to replace them -
1 "The Valleys Team", which everyone really knows will be Pontypool
or 2 a team based in North Wales somewhere along the coastal strip.
The question therefore is "are either of these options better than keeping Scarlets as a pro side?". IMHO at the moment there is nothing to indicate that either of them would do any better or get larger crowds than Scarlets - effectively the WRU would be creating a Connacht which it can ill afford to fund.
What might work is a franchise system - over a period of say five years, the franchise to play in PRO12 is awarded to four clubs, at the end of this period the franchises are reviewed, with certain criteria e.g. - average position in the PRO12, progress in the HEC, number of Welsh players in the squad, attendances, outreach to the semi/pro and amateur clubs in the area, etc. and give an ambitious team below the chance to put in a bid for a place based in the same criteria, based on a five year plan, if their bid is better then they join the PRO12 and the PRO12 side drop to the Welsh Championship with the chance to come back in five years time.
As for joining the English leagues at any level, that bird isn't going to fly at any point as there's no will for it among the English clubs and the RFU.

But what would be the outcome of a major restructure can you really please all the people all the time?

The loyalty agreement expires, the Union and regions can't come to a long term agreement, the regions go bankrupt taking all their debt with them, while the Union hoovers up the majority or the now freelance players and forms 3 teams, East Wales (Cardiff Millenium stadium) and West Wales (Parc Y Scarlets), and North Wales (Colwyn Bay). All the players are centrally contracted no more wars

Irish Londoner wrote:Personally I don't think that the problems will ever be solved, at best there will be an ongoing papering over the cracks process until eventually the clubs, the WRU or RWW blinks first.
If we assume that the current WRU board are not fit for purpose who would replace them - Moffett ? A couple of ex-playing greats who don't mind their reputations being destroyed by the Welsh media and some of the rugby fans as every decision they make is measured against their previous clubs - "See I told you he'd want Scarlets to get more money and not Cardiff - forking Terk"..etc? The chief Druid of the Esitoffod? An outsider with no axe to grind but willing to make unpleasant decisions?
Looking at it in the cold hard light of day, for whatever reason Wales cannot sustain more than four professional teams and financial logic dictates that these teams will have to be based in the main conurbations, so that's three in Swansea, Newport and Cardiff plus one.
That leaves one professional place left at present Scarlets with possibly two options to replace them -
1 "The Valleys Team", which everyone really knows will be Pontypool
or 2 a team based in North Wales somewhere along the coastal strip.
The question therefore is "are either of these options better than keeping Scarlets as a pro side?". IMHO at the moment there is nothing to indicate that either of them would do any better or get larger crowds than Scarlets - effectively the WRU would be creating a Connacht which it can ill afford to fund.
What might work is a franchise system - over a period of say five years, the franchise to play in PRO12 is awarded to four clubs, at the end of this period the franchises are reviewed, with certain criteria e.g. - average position in the PRO12, progress in the HEC, number of Welsh players in the squad, attendances, outreach to the semi/pro and amateur clubs in the area, etc. and give an ambitious team below the chance to put in a bid for a place based in the same criteria, based on a five year plan, if their bid is better then they join the PRO12 and the PRO12 side drop to the Welsh Championship with the chance to come back in five years time.
As for joining the English leagues at any level, that bird isn't going to fly at any point as there's no will for it among the English clubs and the RFU.

Sorry fella, whilst I agree with some of your points, this is a pretty condecending post. The factual errors alone show how little you know of welsh rugby and you've made absolutely zero effort in spelling "Eisteddfod" with your "druid" dig. Grud, everyone knows its the Archdruid   

Bedford, we all know that welsh rugby is being pulled by at least three different parties (WRU exec, Regions and junior clubs) and that fans are broadly split between regions, clubs and team wales ... so in answer to your question, no we cant please everyone. As Larry David said, a good compromise is when nobody's happy. Frankly I think we need a broom through the entire lot and bring the rugby decisions back to the clubs and make sure the biggest clubs get the biggest clout in running the pro game. The WRU is supposed to be the clubs, but the head is acting without the body. If we had a fair and open restructure I could cope with a new regional model but until then let the regions be the ying to Roger Lewis' yang. Until that structure is put right Welsh rugby cant thrive. Roger Lewis, for the good of the game, will you please FOXTROT OSCAR!

Shifty wrote:The loyalty agreement expires, the Union and regions can't come to a long term agreement, the regions go bankrupt taking all their debt with them, while the Union hoovers up the majority or the now freelance players and forms 3 teams, East Wales (Cardiff Millenium stadium) and West Wales (Parc Y Scarlets), and North Wales (Colwyn Bay).  All the players are centrally contracted no more wars

This is very possible, almost likely I would say .... but if it happens the way you describe it will be another divisive event that will alienate yet more fans. I dont believe we can afford for things to happen this way. Roger must go. The WRU need a person of gravitas and honour to come in and negotiate the restructuring of the whole shebang with central contracts for the top players and an acceptable escape route for the benefactors. We will not have peace until things are in balance.

We've been discussing this for years. Crowds still aren't great. The owners stopped putting large amounts of money in and the WRU are resisting putting more money in. Can we assume both know that it's a bottomless pit that won't succeed? They could muddle on the way they have been but I think we'll still be discussing what's wrong with Welsh rugby in 5 years just like we are today and we were five years ago. The whole setup is wrong in my opinion. It's dysfunctional.

I agree with London Tiger. They have to decide on a better system because this one has not been successful and if anything has gotten worse as nobody wants to throw any more money at something that is failing.

If they go the privately owned club route, then joining England is the best option for them. Very bad for Ireland and Scotland though. And potentially very bad for the Welsh national team. The WRU may still have to run regional elite academies for underage players, keeping the best talent concentrated and training together, which is I believe what the much vaunted soccer systems in France/Belgium etc. do.

If they go the real regional route then real regions run by the WRU is the best option for them. In this case the PRO12 would be their natural home. And they naturally keep the best Welsh talent concentrated and training together, which has been the only upside to the mostly botched switch to regions. But really there's no guarantee new regions would be more successful. It would be a big risk.

Or they could keep muddling along with their internal squabbles with the rest of us looking on, or sometimes taking advantage of their internal squabbles if it suits. Which is what I think will actually happen. Maybe if there's a sustained dive in the national teams fortunes then change will be demanded more loudly.

Finally if the stakeholders actually believe the current system can work, and I have my doubts (without being hugely knowledgeable), then they have to bloody work together and stop bloody squabbling.

Shifty wrote:The loyalty agreement expires, the Union and regions can't come to a long term agreement, the regions go bankrupt taking all their debt with them, while the Union hoovers up the majority or the now freelance players and forms 3 teams, East Wales (Cardiff Millenium stadium) and West Wales (Parc Y Scarlets), and North Wales (Colwyn Bay).  All the players are centrally contracted no more wars

Its not above the realms for this to happen but why would this suit fans more than the current set up does?

Feckless Rogue wrote:We've been discussing this for years. Crowds still aren't great. The owners stopped putting large amounts of money in and the WRU are resisting putting more money in. Can we assume both know that it's a bottomless pit that won't succeed? They could muddle on the way they have been but I think we'll still be discussing what's wrong with Welsh rugby in 5 years just like we are today and we were five years ago.

We have and we're still going nowhere fast. Crowds dont come in for regions but put together a pointless and dull possibles vs probables and you can fill a stadium with pink cowboy hats. Regions aren't bottomless pits - properly managed they can thrive with a definitive budget. This battle is about control and it's just the latest squabble in a 20 year war.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Shifty wrote:The loyalty agreement expires, the Union and regions can't come to a long term agreement, the regions go bankrupt taking all their debt with them, while the Union hoovers up the majority or the now freelance players and forms 3 teams, East Wales (Cardiff Millenium stadium) and West Wales (Parc Y Scarlets), and North Wales (Colwyn Bay).  All the players are centrally contracted no more wars

Its not above the realms for this to happen but why would this suit fans more than the current set up does?

Because if the Union own the regions and control the players then all these wars end, with 3 regions the Union could probably afford to run things themselves. Frankly Welsh rugby can't keep putting up with all these egos in Welsh rugby, they are driving fans away in droves. Much more of this and everything below international rugby in Wales will be dead.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Shifty wrote:The loyalty agreement expires, the Union and regions can't come to a long term agreement, the regions go bankrupt taking all their debt with them, while the Union hoovers up the majority or the now freelance players and forms 3 teams, East Wales (Cardiff Millenium stadium) and West Wales (Parc Y Scarlets), and North Wales (Colwyn Bay).  All the players are centrally contracted no more wars

Its not above the realms for this to happen but why would this suit fans more than the current set up does?

If and only IF we have representative cc'd regions agreed by all the major stakeholders we would then have sides that could be followed by club fans regardless of affiliation and the pink cowboy hat team wales brigade. I suspect you would get bigger attendances. Speculative I accept but not entirely unlikely given the crowds that do turn up when the conditions are right. To be fair, the changes to the Pro12 bode well for the competetiveness of the league. Some things are looking up. We just have the ongoing war in Welsh rugby to resolve in order to move on. We've been doing tribalism and infighting in Wales since the days of the princes - dont hold your breath!

Rubbish, an East Wales team playing in Cardiff is no more likely to attract Ponty fans than the current set up is added to that you then have to try and get the Gwent clubs/fans on board. Then you will have fans the Os refusing to go to PYS etc etc.

I don't have an answer and like I said this solution is as good or bad as others but it won't change the way certain fans look at the set up.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Rubbish, an East Wales team playing in Cardiff is no more likely to attract Ponty fans than the current set up is added to that you then have to try and get the Gwent clubs/fans on board.  Then you will have fans the Os refusing to go to PYS etc etc.

I don't have an answer and like I said this solution is as good or bad as others but it won't change the way certain fans look at the set up.

I couldnt disagree more with this statement. The reason Ponty fans wont watch the Blues is precisely because it's Cardiff RFC. They're more than happy to go to the MS in Cardiff to watch Wales. It's less about where it is than WHO it is. If it's a West Wales capped game in Swansea, I'd go and watch. If it's Swansea RFC in another guise, forget it.

It still wouldn't be as simple as that though there are certain elements/valleys/clubs and the like that won't they club and their club alone. If its in any other guise they won't be happy, you would have to even think of it down to the colour of the strips cos if the the East Wales side was still playing in anything resembling the Blue of Cardiff or the West in the red of the Scarlets then that would get peoples backs up.

bedfordwelsh wrote:It still wouldn't be as simple as that though there are certain elements/valleys/clubs and the like that won't they club and their club alone.  If its in any other guise they won't be happy, you would have to even think of it down to the colour of the strips cos if the the East Wales side was still playing in anything resembling the Blue of Cardiff or the West in the red of the Scarlets then that would get peoples backs up.

Yup, you're quite right about much of that, but it's even more of a problem as it stands. As was said earlier, you cant make everyone happy, but I reckon (and just my opinion) that it would be far less divisive to have representative regional teams not under the direct control of an individual club or benefactor. If they had boards made up of voting members from the regions clubs it would be a shared identity, much as Wales is our shared national identity.

I just honestly can't see a solution at the moment.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I just honestly can't see a solution at the moment.

I cant see one being reached anytime soon and even if we do get one, how long will the peace last?

Roger out ASAP, give the benefactors an honourable exit and get the structure right. Like I said, dont hold your breath!

Feckless Rogue wrote:We've been discussing this for years. Crowds still aren't great. The owners stopped putting large amounts of money in and the WRU are resisting putting more money in. Can we assume both know that it's a bottomless pit that won't succeed? They could muddle on the way they have been but I think we'll still be discussing what's wrong with Welsh rugby in 5 years just like we are today and we were five years ago. The whole setup is wrong in my opinion. It's dysfunctional.

I agree with London Tiger. They have to decide on a better system because this one has not been successful and if anything has gotten worse as nobody wants to throw any more money at something that is failing.

If they go the privately owned club route, then joining England is the best option for them. Very bad for Ireland and Scotland though. And potentially very bad for the Welsh national team. The WRU may still have to run regional elite academies for underage players, keeping the best talent concentrated and training together, which is I believe what the much vaunted soccer systems in France/Belgium etc. do.

If they go the real regional route then real regions run by the WRU is the best option for them. In this case the PRO12 would be their natural home. And they naturally keep the best Welsh talent concentrated and training together, which has been the only upside to the mostly botched switch to regions. But really there's no guarantee new regions would be more successful. It would be a big risk.

Or they could keep muddling along with their internal squabbles with the rest of us looking on, or sometimes taking advantage of their internal squabbles if it suits. Which is what I think will actually happen. Maybe if there's a sustained dive in the national teams fortunes then change will be demanded more loudly.

Finally if the stakeholders actually believe the current system can work, and I have my doubts (without being hugely knowledgeable), then they have to bloody work together and stop bloody squabbling.

Agree with all of this, Feckless. Either a regional set up through the WRU or a private set up through the Jeff. Nothing else is intuitive.

There are genuinely arguments for each and the financial implications of each option need to be bottomed out for the good of Welsh rugby. Can someone really not take this process by the scruff of the neck? There are dozens of QCs who arbitrate on sports regulatory matters just like this.

Like all other neutrals, I have been watching this whole thing unfold through the gaps in my fingers. Nobody is really winning and it's a massive shame.

Oh, and I really hope that Glasgow sign Sam Warbuton for this season at least. I am serious about this. He'd fit right in with the work ethic of the club and it benefits nobody for him to be benched for a season because of a contractual stalemate.

TBS - apologies for the mispelling - and it wasn't meant as a dig it was meant as an indication of how far you'll have to trawl to find a person who might possibly be in a position to bang heads together and who all three sides might would think acceptable.
I know that this is one of the more civilised forums for discussing rugby and would it like to to stay that way   

Very generalised overview (afterall, the detail is so contorted it's like trying to untangle a heap of baling twine to get a tiny piece good enough to hold up your trousers!)

Generalised overview from me seems to be this:

Regions (Owners, fans) and Players seem to want to return to the English/Welsh connection. No solution will ever be good enough until that happens.  Fans seem to think those English games will increase enthusiasm; and players mostly seem to think they'd enjoy those battles more as players.  I'm deducing all this by listening to the mumbles and half-saidisms that have been coming from players and fans alike these last number of months.

WRU, meanwhile, seems to want to continue with the Pro12. No other solution is on their agenda. And perhaps this is because they are under the notion that if they sanction an English/Welsh league, or promote one in any negotiations, their influence will wilt when linking up with the RFU and PRL, and Welsh International rugby will suffer the consequences.

So I think the divisions are far more funadamental than simply trying to find solutions to player-drain, money, bums of stadium seats, sponsorships etc, etc.  I think simply that the two combatants (WRU v Regions) want to distinctly walk down very different hallways to the future.

I guess they'll never agree on anything as long as their real divisions are sidetracked and muffled away under whispers and excuses about money, control of players, money, attendances and money.  The divide is bigger than any of those things.

If the Regions joined the premiership it would 'have' to have the WRU giving the governing group (probably still PRL but with 4 new members) to same as the RFU do in terms of control (so commercial rights, etc). They're not going to do that except as a last resort. Whether it's because they want the commercial money to inflate their turnover, or became they want to rule with an Iron fist or...and this is the shocker...they don't think it would be best for Welsh rugby.

I don't think all Regional fans want the English connection. Very few of the ones on here seem to. Other forums are full of them and others even fewer.

Personally don't understand the regions endgame. If they could be sustainable without the WRU, fair enough, but they can't be. And therefore they need Union funding and therefore they need the strings that go with it.

They simply can't expect players to keep leaving Wales without the WRU trying to change things. I think the WRU are equally clueless, but they seem to want the agreement to stay the same (not even stay the same- give them more) whilst they don't compete to keep the best players in Wales, because they can't. So therefore the Union must step in to keep key players in Welsh Rugby. There is no other solution to the player drain.

But if the WRU move to keep players in Wales then its undermining the regions. Warburton gets a lot of stick but he's gambled on this because he wants to play in Wales, in front of welsh fans, and he simply can't with a regional contract without taking a large loss personally. He has to provide for himself and his family after retirement yet he's willing to walk away from easy money in France to gamble on being able to stay in Wales.Yet he is demonised more than the guy who heads to Toulon.

Now as for the WRU- what a ridiculous set of demands they have. Their funding should come with strings attached but they take the pish something shocking compared to other Unions who fund teams at higher levels and ask for much less. An extra international the weekend before the biggest games of the season? Start poorly in the first two rounds of the Heineken Cup and it's over. So why are Welsh players playing a pointless test match the weekend before when every other team in Europe has their internationals back and is preparing for the games that will make or break their season. And the Heineken Cup and its replacement make and break a lot more than seasons- a good Cup performance will move more season tickets than any Pro12 performances, it will expose the side to bigger TV audiences, it will bring in prize money, it will make you more valuable to sponsors, it will make you a more appealing club to join for potential players and coaches. It is make or break for pro rugby teams and the WRU insist on giving their own sides a big disadvantage. Sheer madness.

Similarly the WRU are unlike the IRFU or SRU in insisting that players are released by the regions for U20s and 7s. This means in the Six Nations window, the guys who would be getting game time with the internationals away... are away with the 20s. You couldn't make it up. Again weakening the regions, again making them less competitive, again making it harder for them to get the success they need to sustain themselves. And then they pay less for player release than other unions do despite demanding more players are released for longer periods.

One can only conclude that the WRU do not care about the needs of the regions and the regions do not care about the needs of the WRU. Both parties seem only interested in themselves and incredibly short sighted. The regions also seem to not care at all about clubs within their regions and treat them with the same contempt the WRU treats the regions.

Therefore, as an outsider, I think the best outcome is the resignation of all parties in the WRU and RRW due to a lack of competence.

Notch wrote:
Therefore, as an outsider, I think the best outcome is the resignation of all parties in the WRU and RRW due to a lack of competence.

Best summary. After reading all that Poopie that is going on i can't make up my mind who is worse, WRU or RRW.