Celtic Football Club - Season 2014-15

First topic message reminder :

Transfers In:




Craig Gordon -  Free
Jo Inge Berget - On Loan From Cardiff City
Aleksander Tonev - On Loan From Aston Villa
Jason Denayer - On Loan From Manchester City
Mubarak Wakaso - On Loan from Ruban Kazan
John Guidetti -  On Loan from Manchester City
Stefan Scepovic - £2.2m  From Sporting Gijon
Michael Duffy -  £150,000  From Derry City
Gary Mackay-Steven -  £250,000  From Dundee Utd
Stuart Armstrong -  £1.85m  From Dundee Utd

Total: £4.45m


Transfers Out:


Georgios Samaras - Free
Steven Mouyokolo - Free
Tony Watt - £1.2m - Standard Leige
Denny Johnstone - £300,000 - Birmingham
Fraser Forster - £10m - Southampton
Amido Baldé - On Loan - Waasland-Beveran  (Loan Fee £250k)
Holmbert Fridjonnson - On Loan - Brondby IF
Dylan McGeouch - On Loan - Hibernian
Lewis Toshney  -  Free
Teemu Pukki  -  On Loan - Brondby IF  (Loan Fee £500k)
Bahrudin Atajic  -   Free
Jo Inge Berget - Malmo took on his loan
Filip Twardzik  - Free - Bolton Wanderers

Total: £12.25m

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Results/Fixtures


July
UCL Qualifier Second Round 1st Leg: KR Reykjavik 0-1 Celtic (McGregor) - Att: 1,600
UCL Qualifier Second Round 2nd Leg: Celtic 4-0 KR Reykavik (Van Dijk 2, Pukki 2) - Assist: Mulgrew, Lustig, McGregor, Commons - Att: 42,000
UCL Qualifier Third Round 1st Leg: Legia Warsaw 4-1 Celtic (McGregor) - Att: 31,000

August
UCL Qualifier Third Round 2nd Leg:  Celtic 3-0 Legia Warsaw - UEFA forfeit   - Att: 41,723
SPFL Premiership: St Johnstone 0-3 Celtic (Stokes, Biton, McGregor) - Assist: Commons, Boerrigter, Matthews - Att: 6,890
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 6-1 Dundee Utd (Denayer, Commons, Johansen, Stokes, Berget 2) - Assist: Stokes, Ambrose, Kayal - Att: 44,484
UCL Play-Off Round 1st Leg: NK Maribor 1-1 Celtic (McGregor) - Att: 11,500
SPFL Premiership: Inverness C.T 1-0 Celtic - Att: 5,862 
UCL Play-Off Round 2nd Leg: Celtic 0-1 NK Maribor - Att: 55,415
SPFL Premiership: Dundee 1-1 Celtic (Griffiths)  - Att:  9,276

September
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 2-1 Aberdeen (Denayer, Commons) - Assist: Ambrose, McGregor - Att: 43,640
UEFA Europa League: Redbull Salzburg 2-2 Celtic (Wakaso, Brown) -  Att: 17,886
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 1-1 Motherwell (Commons) - Att:  41,719
Scottish League Cup: Celtic 3-0 Hearts (Guidetti, Commons,  OG )  -Assist: Stokes - Att: 15,522
SPFL Premiership: St Mirren 1-2 Celtic (Guidetti 2)  - Assist: Wakaso, Stokes - Att: 5,280

October
[UEFA Europa League: Celtic 1-0 Dynamo Zagreb (Commons) - Assist: Stokes - Att:37,000
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 0-1 Hamilton - Att: 42,412
SPFL Premiership: Ross County 0-5 Celtic (Guidetti, McGregor, Stokes 2, Denayer)  - Assist: Stokes, Guidetti, Johansen - Att: 5,693
UEFA Europa League: Celtic 2-1 FC Astra (Scepovic, Johansen) Assist: Stokes, Tonev - Att: 32,000
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 2-0 Kilmarnock (Guidetti, Scepovic) - Assist: Wakaso - Att: 42,800
Scottish League Cup: Celtic 6-0 Partick Thistle (Guidetti 3, Izaguirre, Griffiths) - Ass: Stokes, Izaguirre - Att: 16,805


November
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 1-0 I.C.T  (Guidetti) - Assist:  Stokes -  Att:  42,553
UEFA Europa League: FC Astra 1-1 Celtic  (Johansen)  - Att:  2,500
SPFL Premiership: Aberdeen 1-2 Celtic  (Johansen, Van Dijk) -  Assist:   Stokes, Johansen  - Att: 19,051
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 2-1 Dundee  (Stokes, Guidetti)  - Assist:  Commons, Matthews  - Att: 43,787
UEFA Europa League: Celtic 1-3 Red Bull Salzburg (Johansen) - Assist:  Izaguirre  - Att: 32,414
Scottish Cup 4th round: Hearts 0-4 Celtic (Van Dijk 2, Guidetti, Stokes)  - Assist:  Stokes, Brown, Johansen  - Att: 12,676


December
SPFL Premiership:  Celtic 1-0 Partick Thistle  (Van Dijk)  - Assist: Johansen  - Att: 40,633
SPFL Premiership:  Motherwell 0-1 Celtic (Stokes) - Assist:  Johansen - Att: 7,704
UEFA Europa League: Dinamo Moscow 4-3 Celtic (Commons, Scepovic, OG) - Assist: Bitton, Izaguirre - Att: 4,054
SPFL Premiership:  Celtic 4-1 St Mirren (Brown 2, Forrest, Stokes) Assist: Stokes, Guidetti, Forrest, Johansen - Att: 44,827
SPFL Premiership: Dundee Utd 2-1 Celtic (Griffiths) -Assist: Scepovic - Att: 12,098
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 0-0 Ross County - Att: 45,798


January
SPFL Premiership: Kilmarnock 0-2 Celtic (Izaguirre, Scepovic) - Assist: Johansen, Ambrose - Att: 5,329
SPFL Premiership: Hamilton 0-2 Celtic (Matthews, Henderson) - Assist: Commons, Izaguirre - Att: 6,007
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 4-0 Motherwell (Van Dijk, Griffiths, Lustig 2) - Assist: Stokes 2, Forrest,  Griffiths -Att: 42,296
SPFL Premiership: Ross County 0-1 (Commons) - Att: 5,289

February
Scottish League Cup Semi-Final Celtic 2-0 Rangers (Griffiths< Commons) -  Assist: Johansen, Brown - Att: 50,925
SPFL Premiership:Partick Thistle 0-3 Celtic (Mackay-Steven, Armstrong, Johansen)
Scottish Cup 4th Round: Dundee 0-2 Celtic (Griffiths, Johansen)
SPFL Premiership: St Johnstone 1-2 Celtic (Griffiths, Johansen)
UEFA Europa League: Celtic 3-3 Inter Milan (Armstrong 2, Guidetti)  - Assist: Matthews 2, Henderson  - Att:  60,000
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 4-0 Hamilton (Commons 2, Johansen, Guidetti - Assit: Van Dijk 2, Izaguirre,  Matthews Att: 47,998
UEFA Europa League: Inter Milan 1-0 Celtic Att: 39,711

March
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 4-0 Aberdeen (Denayer, Griffiths, Mackay-Steven, Johansen) - Assist Armstrong, Matthews - Att: 50,256
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 0-1 St Johnstone Att: 41,849
Scottish Cup Quarter Final: Dundee Utd 1-1 Celtic (Griffiths) - Assist: Johansen - Att: 10,504
Scottish League Cup Final: Dundee Utd 0-2 Celtic (Commons, Forrest) - Assist: Stokes, Guidetti  - Att: 49,259
Scottish Cup Quarter Final Replay: Celtic 4-0 Dundee Utd (Denayer, Griffiths, Commons, Van Dijk) - Assist: Stokes, Brown, Guidetti, Denayer  - Att: 28,847
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 3-0 Dundee Utd ( MaMackay-Steven,  Guidetti, Denayer) - Assist: Mackay-Steven  - Att:  45,884

April
SPFL Premiership: St Mirren 0-2 Celtic (Forrest, Johansen) - Assist: Matthews - Att: 5,874
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 2-0 Partick Thistle (Commons, Johansen)  - Assist: Guidetti - Att:  43,784
SPFL Premiership: Inverness 1-1 Celtic (Griffiths) - Att: 6,059
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 4-1 Kilmarnock (Commons, Griffiths 3) - Assist: Brown 2, Commons, Bitton  - Att: 42,464
Scottish Cup Semi Final: Inverness C.T 3-2 Celtic (Van Dijk, Guidetti) - Att: 28,643
SPFL Premiership: Dundee 1-2 Celtic (Mackay-Steven, Van Dijk) - Assist: Van Dijk - Att: 8,908
SPFL Premiership: Dundee Utd 0-3 Celtic (Griffiths 3) - Assist: Johansen, Van Dijk, Mackay-Steven - Att: 8,329

May
SPFL Premiership: Celtic 5-0 Dundee (Griffiths, Brown, Commons, Forrest, Bitton) - Assist: Izaguirre, Griffiths -Att: 44,299
Aberdeen 0-1 Celtic (Brown) - Assist: Armstrong  - Att: 16,742
St Johnstone 0-0 Celtic
Celtic 5-0 Inverness C.T (Scepovic 2, Johansen Griffiths, Forrest) - Assist: Van Dijk, Izaguire, Forrest - Att: 55,638

Goals
 
20 - Leigh Griffiths
16 - Kris Commons
15 - John Guidetti; Stefan Johansen
10 - Virgil Van Dijk
8 -  Anthony Stokes
6 -  Jason Denayer
5 - Callum McGregor; Scott Brown; Stefan Scepovic
4 - Gary Mackay-Steven
3  - Stefan Scepovic;  Stuart Armstrong; 
2 -  Emilio Izaguirre;  Nir Bitton
1 - Liam Henderson

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Assists

9 - Anthony Stokes
7 - Stefan Johansen
3 - Kris Commons;  Callum McGregor;  Emilio Izaguirre; Adam Matthews
2 - Efe Ambrose;  John Guidetti;  Scott Brown
1 - Charlie Mulgrew;  Mikeal Lustig;  Derk Boerrigter; Beram Kayal; Mubarak Wakaso;  Aleksander Tonev;  Nir Bitton

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Man Of The Match


Game 1  - UCL Qualifier 1st Leg: vs KR Reykjavik  - Kris Commons
Game 2 - UCL Qualifier 2nd Leg: vs KR REYKJAVIK - Viirgil Van Dijk
Game 3 - UCL Qualifier 1st Leg: vs Legia Warsaw - Fraser Forster
Game 4 - UCL Qualifier 2nd Leg: vs LEGIA WARSAW - Adam Matthews
Game 5 - SPFL Premiership: vs St Johnstone - Callum McGregor
Game 6 - SPFL Premiership: vs DUNDEE UTD  - Anthony Stokes
Game 7 - UCL Play-Off 1st Leg:  vs NK Maribor - Beram Kayal
Game 8 - SPFL Premiership:  vs Inverness C.T -  Nir Bitton
Game 9 - UCL Play-Off 2nd Leg: vs NK MARIBOR  - Mikeal Lustig
Game 10 - SPFL Premiership: vs Dundee -  Leigh Griffiths


Game 11 - SPFL Premiership:  vs ABERDEEN - Kris Commons
Game 12 - UEFA Europa League vs Red Bull Salzburg - Craig Gordon
Game 13 - SPFL Premiership: vs MOTHERWELL - Emilio Izaguirre
Game 14 - Scottish League Cup: vs HEARTS - Anthony Stokes
Game 15 - SPFL Premiership: vs St Mirren - John Guidetti
Game 16 - UEFA Europa League: vs DYNAMO MOSCOW - Jason Denayer
Game 17 - SPFL Premiership: vs HAMILTON ACCIES - 
Game 18 - SPFL Premiership: vs Ross County - Anthony Stokes
Game 19 - UEFA Europa League: vs FC ASTRA  - Stefan Johansen
Game 20 - SPFL Premiership: vs KILMARNOCK - John Guidetti


Game 21 - Scottish League Cup: vs PARTICK THISTLE - John Guidetti
Game 22 - SPFL Premiership: vs INVERNESS C.T - Virgil Van Dijk
Game 23 - UEFA Europa League: vs FC Astra - Stefan Johansen
Game 24 - SPFL Premiership: vs Aberdeen - Stefan Johansen
Game 25 - SPFL Premiership: vs DUNDEE - James Forrest
Game 26 - UEFA Europa League: vs RED BULL SALZBURG - Leigh Griffiths
Game 27 - Scottish Cup: vs Hearts - Virgil Van Dijk
Game 28 - SPFL Premiership: vs  PARTICK THISTLE - Virgil Van Dijk
Game 29 - SPFL Premiership: vs  Motherwell -  Stefan Johansen
Game 30 - UEFA Europa League:  vs Dinamo Zagreb - Nir Bitton


Game 31 - SPFL Premiership:  vs  ST MIRREN - Scott Brown
Game 32 - SPFL Premiership:  vs  Dundee Utd -  Leigh Griffiths
Game 33 - SPFL Premiership:  vs ROSS COUNTY - Emilio Izaguirre
Game 34 - SPFL Premiership:  vs Kilmarnock - Kris Commons
Game 35 - SPFL Premiership:  vs Hamilton - Liam Henderson
Game 36 - SPFL Premiership:  vs MOTHERWELL - Leigh Griffiths
Game 37 - SPFL Premiership:  vs Ross County - Virgil Van Dyke
Game 38 - Scottish League Cup Semi Final: vs RANGERS - Scott Brown
Game 39 - SPFL Premiership:  vs Partick Thistle  - John Guidetti
Game 40 - Scottish Cup:  vs  Dundee  - Stefan Johansen


Game 41 -  SPFL Premiership:  vs St Johnstone - Leigh Griffiths
Game 42 - UEFA Europa League:  vs INTER MILAN - Nit Bitton
Game 43 - SPFL Premiership:  vs  HAMILTON ACCIES - Virgil Van Dijk
Game 44 - UEFA Europa League:  vs Inter Milan - Jason Denayer
Game 45 - SPFL Premiership:  vs  ABERDEEN  - Gary MacKay-Steven
Game 46 - SPFL Premiership:  vs  ST JOHNSTONE - Craig Gordon
Game 47 - Scottish Cup:  vs  Dundee Utd - Nir Bitton
Game 48 - Scottish League Cup Final: vs DUNDEE UTD - Nir Bitton
Game 49 - Scottish Cup Replay:  vs  DUNDEE UTD - Jason Denayer
Game 50 - SPFL Premiership:  vs DUNDEE UTD  - Gary Mackay-Steven


Game 51 - SPFL Premiership:  vs St Mirren - James Forrest
Game 52 - SPFL Premiership:  vs PARTICK THISTLE  - Stefan Johansen
Game 53 - SPFL Premiership: vs Inverness C.T - Nir Bitton
Game 54 - SPFL Premiershipvs KILMARNOCK - Leigh Griffiths
Game 55 - Scottish Cup Semi Final: vs INVERNESS C.T - James Forrest
Game 56 - SPFL Premiership: vs Dundee - Gary Mackay-Steven
Game 57 - SPFL Premiership: vs Dundee Utd - Leigh Griffiths
Game 58 - SPFL Premiership: vs DUNDEE - Kris Commons
Game 59 - SPFL Premiership: vs Aberdeen - Scott Brown 
Game 60 - SPFL Premiership: vs St Johnstone - Lukas Zaluska
Game 61 - SPFL Premiership: vs INVERNESS C.T - Emilio Izaguirre

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Appearances:

Player's Names	SPFL Premiership (Subs)/Goals	European Football (subs)/Goals	Scottish FA Cup (Subs)/Goals	Scottish League Cup (Subs)/Goals	Total Appearances (Subs)/Goals
GOALKEEPERS:
24. Lukas Zaluska	5	-	(1)	-	5 (1)
26. Craig Gordon	33	10	5	4	52
38. Leo Fason	-	-	-	-	-
DEFENDERS:
2. Adam Matthews	24 (5)/1	6 (3)	3 (1)	(1)	32 (8)/1
3. Emilio Izaguirre	33 (1)/1	13 (2)	5	4/1	55 (3)/2
4. Efe Ambrose	21 (4)	8 (3)	3	2	34 (7)
5. Virgil Van Dijk	34/4	14/2	5/4	4	58/10
22. Jason Denayer	28/5	7	4/1	4	44/5
23. Mikeal Lustig	2 (2)/2	8	1	2	13 (2)/2
34. Eoghan O'Connell	2 (1)	-	-	(1)	2 (2)
41. Darnel Fisher	1 (5)	(1)	(2)	-	1 (8)
MIDFIELDERS:
6. Nir Bitton	24 (8)/2	4 (1)	5	1	34 (9)/2
8. Scott Brown	31 (1)/4	7/1	5	3	46 (1)/5
11. Derk Boerrigter	(1)	(2)	-	-	(3)
14. Stuart Armstrong	12 (3)/1	2/2	-	-	14 (3)/3
15. Kris Commons	22 (7)/10	7 (3)/2	3 (1)/1	2/2	34 (11)/15
16. Gary Mackay-Steven	10 (4)/4	2	-	-	12 (4)/4
18. Tom Rogic	-	-	-	-	-
21. Charlie Mulrew	7 (3)	9	-	1	17 (3)
25. Stefan Johansen	34 (1)/9	14/3	4/1	4	55 (1)/15
27. Aleksander Tonev	3 (2)	1 (3)	(2)	(1)	4 (7)
32. Mubarak Wakaso	4 (1)	4 (1)/1	-	(1)	8 (3)/1
42. Callum McGregor	8 (10)/2	11/3	-	2	21 (10)/5
49. James Forrest	12 (7)/3	(3)	4 (1)	(2)/1	16 (13)/4
53. Liam Henderson	3 (4)/1	(2)	(1)	-	3 (7)/1
FORWARDS:
9. John Guidetti	20 (5)/8	1 (1)/1	1(3)/2	2(2)/4	23 (9)/15
10. Anthony Stokes	18 (2)/7	7 (2)	3(1)/1	4	32 (5)/8
12. Stefan Scepovic	5 (11)/4	4/2	-	(2)	7 (14)/6
28. Leigh Griffiths	15 (10)/13	4(4)	4(1)/3	2(1)/3	25 (16)/20
PLAYERS SOLD:
Fraser Forster	-	4	-	-	4
16. Jo Inge Berget	2 (2)/2	3 (1)	-	-	5 (1)/2
Tony Watt	-	-	-	-	-
Beram Kayal	2 (4)	2 (5)	-	-	4 (9)
Filip Twardzik	1	-	-	-	1
Denny Johnston	-	-	-	-	-
PLAYERS ON LOAN:
Teemu Pukki	1	-	-	-	-
Amido Balde	-	-	-	-	-
Dylan McGeouch	1	-	-	-	-
Holmbert Fridjonnson	-	-	-	-	-

We are were we are, in 2003 our wage bill was the fifth highest on the UK and you could see that with the level of performance at home and abroad - in 2013 Celtic's average first team wage bill was about 28th in the UK which means there was SEVEN Championship clubs who paid more money than us, it is what it is, small Countries are finding it harder and harder to compete.

Scottiah Football isn't bad, constantly saying it is doesn't mean its true,  I'd challenge you to watch it far more often and when you see enough of all teams maybe you'll have a better prepsective of the benefits our game has - constantly debating with someone who always positions a huge negative in a post about our game is tiring, more so when the said person doesn't watch enough of it to form anything remotely resembling an accurat account

So what are they going to do in Scotland to stem the slide? It obviously can't compete with bigger leagues, so could they move to summer like Den/Nor/Swe/Ice/Fin

Really can't see why Scotland persists in having games at the very  worst times of year, how can people play to their best potential in the worst of weather? No wonder it isn't very technically good, whilst summer football means teams would be already well into their stride in regards to qualifying for European competition.

The state of Scottish football is very complex.

It suffers because of lack of a competition for the title and severe lack of funding. Celtic will never realistically compete in the Champions League until funding arrives in the shape of better TV deals which in turn will not improve until the league is more competitive - it perhaps may happen if Rangers get promoted to rekindle the Old Firm Derby.

For me the Scottish clubs should be moving heaven and earth to produce their own players to a much greater degree. After all the few foreigners Celtic and others have brought in in recent years have been dross anyway and it costs to buy dross in but doesn't to develop your own players. Talent is there as Dundee United can testify as they have produced Ryan Gauld (signed by Sporting Lisbon for £3 million), Andrew Robertson (signed by Hull City) and a host of other sought-after youngsters. Also the SPL has produced players such as Snodgrass, Marshall, Fletcher, McGregor, McArthur, Naismith, Adam etc etc who have did well in the EPL which people would have us believe is one of the strongest leagues in the world so players from the SPL have proved that being good in the SPL does transfer to being good in other leagues as well which is a testament to their quality and testament that quality can and does exist in the SPL.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28732601

I hope Celtic do the right and honourable thing.

Anyone who thinks any club would pass up this opportunity is beyond moronic and live in cloud cuckoo land - At the end of the day as unfortunate as it is for the Legia Warsaw players, it has absolutely nothing to do with Celtic, the matter ia for UEFA and as I poseted on Thursday night before the decision, they choose to do what they've done 100% of the time in the past when presented with the exact same dilemma, a 3- forfeit.

As soon as UEFA deviate from tge rules it opens them up for all sorts of mental conspiracy theories - rules are rules and if we can't treat everyone the same 100% of the time then the whole thing is pointless.

I see Aleksander Tonev is joining you on season loan.

If they got pumped 6-1 by Warsaw then they are hardly likely to be fare better against Maribor.
They'll have to contend themselves with that most coveted of titles. Europe's 23rd best league.

super_realist wrote:
They'll have to contend themselves with that most coveted of titles. Europe's 23rd best league.

And perhaps 30th best-funded league hence we are where we are.

The 6-1 result wasn't a fluke, no mistaking that but if anyone has any knowledge of this Celtic team they'll be aware that the team itself whilst not good enough is capable of competing with the likes of Legia Warsaw and Maribor, the biggest problem for Celtic is Ronny Deila's insistance of playing 4-2-3-1 when he hasn't got the personnell available to him at this moment in time to play that style, not one Celtic player has looked truly comfortable and a number of players are playing out of position, that in a nut shell is the real reason we got so badly gubbed by Legia.

Also, Legia are probably a lot higher stanfard than Maribor, that being said, Maribor should be confident because Celtic are there for the taking, on the flip side the opposition is of the standard that they could also be turned over if Celtic play a first 11 and formation that suits instead of square pegs in round holes.

Anyway, all this hot air could be for nothing, we're playing St Johnstone on Wednesday Night and UEFA will hear Legia's appeal so until then its all ifs buts and maybes

Two signings tonight beat the Champions League Play-Off deadline - winger Aleksander Tonev from Aston Villa and central defender Jason Denayer from Man City

Still got one "wildcard" signing to make before next Tuesday at 11pm but I've heard Celtic are waiting to see the outcome of Legia Warsaw's appeal on Wednesday Night.

Didn't Maribor beat the current buns with relative ease a few years back at a time when both Glasgow teams were stronger?

Kay Fabe wrote:Two signings tonight beat the Champions League Play-Off deadline - winger Aleksander Tonev from Aston Villa and central defender Jason Denayer from Man City

Still got one "wildcard" signing to make before next Tuesday at 11pm but I've heard Celtic are waiting to see the outcome of Legia Warsaw's appeal on Wednesday Night.

 
Didn't get much of  a look in with us.
 
Hopefully he will do well for Celtic.
 
Good luck to him.

Yeah I know it didn't work out for him at Villa, we were after him last summer along with Villa so I remember thinking he looked a player while at Lech Poznan, who knows,  we badly need natural width and pace, he offers both, maybe going back to a similar type of team in a similar standard of league as the Polish League might suit him

Kay Fabe wrote:Yeah I know it didn't work out for him at Villa, we were after him last summer along with Villa so I remember thinking he looked a player while at Lech Poznan, who knows,  we badly need natural width and pace, he offers both, maybe going back to a similar type of team in a similar standard of league as the Polish League might suit him

Legia Warsaw didn't look the same standard

Some people ain't gonna be happy...

Ach, unless they have improved 500% since the Warsaw game, they'll be knocked out, and even if they get through, they'll be even worse than Ireland were at the Euro's in the actual CL.

A disappointing outcome for football, but to be expected.

Hopefully Celtic will not make it to the group stage.

Right, here is my take on things

Legia Warsaw totally dominated us, I'm sceptical as to whether they're so much better than us or the fact the manager is continuing to put square pegs in round holes, our midfield is very weak at the moment though.

Do Celtic deserve to still be in the competition?  My honest answer is no, I think you'll be hard pushed to find any Celtic fan say otherwise, this isn't and wasn't Celtic's fault or doing though, this was a Legia Warsaw mistake which was realised by the UEFA match deligate, the only two things we are gulity for in all of this is getting gubbed off a team and being the recipient's of Legia's stupidity, its not misfortune, it was a basic error by professionals who are hired to do that job specificly.

The romantic notion that Celtic should nobly step aside is just that, sheer romanticism, there isn't a Football Club in World Football who would "do the right thing"...there is also the fact that UEFA probably wouldn't allow Legia to progress given that they'd broken a fundamental competition rule so the likelyhood of Celtic stepping aside would be a Maribor "walkover".

Is it the right decison? I'd have to say YES, while I've previously said Celtic don't deserve to progress due to the hammering they took at the hands of Legia, rules are rules and MUST be unambiguous, there is no precedent for fielding a player currently serving a suspension other than a 3-0 walkover and when you start deviating from the rules of the game thats when conspiracy theorists have a field day, it damages trust in fairness for everyone if the rules aren't upheld.

I'm slightly embarassed that my club has progressed in this manner but I'll be morw than grateful to take it, Celtic find it hard enough trying to generate funds within the confines of the Scottish game, Champions League Football allows that, I'll have a red face but if we happen to progress past Maribor I'll be just as delighted as I have been the previous two years.


Just to finish: I don't believe Celtic should have to play qualifiers to enter the Champions League anyway, Scotland has been represented in the Group Stages of the Champions League in 17 of the 22 seasons since its inception, we've had at least one club involved in 14 of the last 16 Seasons, a few times having two teams - 4 of thise 4 occassions has saw a Scottish ub progress past the group stages - Scotland is a small Nation but the consistency shown in reaching the group stages has been of very high standard, even our games biggest detracrtors would have to acknowledge that, this is the very reason why the Scottish Champions should in my opiniom have Automatic qualification.

Celtic have done nothing wrong, but I do feel UEFA should revisit the rule book following this.

The punishment vastly outweighs the crime, especially when Debrecen received a fine for playing an ineligible rather than suspended player. Its fairly obvious to all concerned he wasn't played knowingly flaunting the rules because Legia needed anything.

As for Scotland getting an automatic place, I can't agree on merit really. Hard to argue its of a sufficient standard relative to the rest of Europe.

Celtic have to play qualifiers because clubs from other countries do better. They acquire more UEFA coefficient points. It's based on the previous 5 years and in those 5 years Scotland have been gash.

That's why Belgium gets two clubs in the group stage regularly.

EDIT

Just checked the latest coefficient. It's been a whole since I had a proper look but the Scottish league is 24th. WOW!!! Never realised it was that bad. Switzerland, Greece, Czech Rep, Austria, Romania, Israel, Cyprus, Croatia, Poland, Denmark, Belarus, and Sweden are all ahead. Last time I looked properly Scotland was 14th just behind Belgium and Turkey.

Debrecen is different though, everytime a player has played while serving a suspension the 3-0 forfeit has been the punishment, the only time their has been any room for scope is when the player in question is ineligible NOT suspended.

People have to remember too that Legia weren't kicked out of the Champions League, they were handed an automatic 3-0 defeat, it just so happens that on this occassion the 3-0 was enough for Celtic to progress.

Like I said, if you open up the rule book to allow deviation then you leave yourself open to all sorts of suggestion

The alternative seems preferable to one punishment for murderers and thieves. I could fully understand if it was even remotely competitive, but going out based on playing a player for 2 minutes while 6-1 up doesn't really seem balanced.

It doesn't but it doesn't matter if he plays 90 minutes or 90 seconds, the rule remains the same - he wasn't included in the squad for St Pats, who's to say if he was included in that squad it wouldn't have been in place of a star performer in that tie, sits highly unlikely but they did gain a sporting advantage with having a full squad to choose from vs St Pats - I think they're desperately unlucky but on the otherhand they've been extraordinarily stupid, UEFA informed their first European tie and they still got it wrong. 

If you change the rule for them then they levae themselves open to everyone else they've given identical punishments too, I posted a good few on Friday morning, a few with aimilar scorelines to this, this wasn't a one-off

I'm not arguing with the application of the rule, more the rule itself. This game was played under that rule so the punishment is correct.

Seems more like giving everyone caught thieving a 10 year jail sentence and applying it to both somebody who robs a bank and somebody who accidentally forgets they have a loaf of bread in their bag.

From what I have read, it would seem that Legia Warsaw have done very little wrong.

The suspended player had, prior to the second leg against Celtic where he were brought on as a substitute, not played for three European games. Legia Warsaw were under the impression that this was enough to satisfy the requirements of the suspension. It turns out they were incorrect, but you would hope common sense would prevail in this situation.

Even allowing for this oversight, the ineligible player was only on the field for a matter of minutes, and he did not influence the result in any way. Again, one would hope that common sense would prevail.

They were able to select another person in the squad for the previous tie, ergo some sort of advantage was gained there apparently.

It is really, really stupid but thems the breaks.

Amazed the delegate who checks the squad list didn't flag it up before he came on - it is like they just wait for teams to trip themselves up.

Ent, I've mentioned that myself, I fully expect the Deligate to be positively delighted when he saw the error knowing thay he had some juicy information that will get him a few back slaps back in Nyon

Duty, they did do very little wrong, but it doesn't matter if its 90 minutes or 90 seconds, the rules are quite clear.


Also, just read there from UEFA that Celtic apparently weren't in a position to "step aside"...I lnew this anyway, Legia wouldn't have been granted access to the next round regardless and Celtic would have been disqualified from the Europa League Play-Off, that would hardly be fair, regardleas of how crap they were in the CL qualifier, they didn't do anything wrong to merit any kind of expulsion

Then the rule needs to be changed to allow for common sense to prevail in some instances.

Duty281 wrote:Then the rule needs to be changed to allow for common sense to prevail in some instances.

I disagree, changing the rule to suit a certain circumstance leaves UEFA open to messy legal battles and every decision they make being taken to the CAS


its harsh but everyone ia treated the same.

happened years ago with Lee Bowyer too, Newcastle knew he was banned for 6 games so didn't register him for the Champions League group stage, they thought he could play later in the tournament but found out that as he wasn't registered he still hadn't served his ban - this isn't some knew rule, its been the same for as long as I can remember, why the Legiaa official wasn't aware of this I'll never know.

Also, it came to light recently that Legia'a keeper informed the club BEFORE the offence that he thought the pkayer may still be suspended, they choose to ignore that.

It is unfortunate and real kick in the you know whats for Legia Warsaw as they were overwhelmingly the better side. I bet as well they are thinking back to their two missed penalties in the first leg as if even one of them had gone in this discussion would have been irrelevant. In any case Celtic are blameless here as they couldn't step aside and can only follow the rules dished out by UEFA. It is all immaterial as they'll likely get hammered by Maribor in any case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/28797122

Good decision by Legia, as the rule needs to be changed to better suit some circumstances.

Kay Fabe summed it up perfectly earlier in the thread:  "it doesn't matter if he plays 90 minutes or 90 seconds, the rule remains the same."

A rule like that which does not vary, that is so fundamentally rigid, is bordering on idiocy. Hopefully CAS will see common sense, and do what is right.

I don't think the rule does need changed, if a player is serving a suspension he shouldn't take to the field, its that simple, the 3-0 forfiet has never been problematic before.

Changing the rule has the potential to open up pandoras box for future cases, I believe UEFA took so long to come toannounce their decision because they were going over and over everything to make sure the CAS couldn't overrule them - Don't think UEFA are too happy with Legia's conduct in all of this.

CAS have rejected Legia Warsaw's appeal to UEFA's decision to uphold their 3-0 forfiet,  bit jaded with this now, here's hoping we can take this unexpected AND undeserved second chance against Maribor, first tie is in Slovenia on Wenesday Night with the retuen leg next Tuesday at Celtic Park, both games I believe are live on SKY (unless we take another mauling in the first leg   )

CFCNick wrote:Celtic have to play qualifiers because clubs from other countries do better. They acquire more UEFA coefficient points. It's based on the previous 5 years and in those 5 years Scotland have been gash.

That's why Belgium gets two clubs in the group stage regularly.

EDIT

Just checked the latest coefficient. It's been a whole since I had a proper look but the Scottish league is 24th. WOW!!! Never realised it was that bad. Switzerland, Greece, Czech Rep, Austria, Romania, Israel, Cyprus, Croatia, Poland, Denmark, Belarus, and Sweden are all ahead. Last time I looked properly Scotland was 14th just behind Belgium and Turkey.

It was 7th in 2008 and always on the outskirts of the top ten. Problem is, the Europa League is very close to the CL in terms of points earned, which of course is ridiculous. When Celtic got to the last 16 two years ago and three Czech teams got to the first stage of the Europa League they gathered roughly the same amount of points which is ridiculous. So without Rangers we effectively have one team trying to collect all the points for the league as the rest have to go through 3/4 qualifying rounds to even get to the EL groupstages , just a vicious cycle. Once Rangers are back in Europe they will have so few points left they will be unseeded and thus find it tough to make it in to the group stages (probably Europa) too.

monty junior wrote:

CFCNick wrote:Celtic have to play qualifiers because clubs from other countries do better. They acquire more UEFA coefficient points. It's based on the previous 5 years and in those 5 years Scotland have been gash.

That's why Belgium gets two clubs in the group stage regularly.

EDIT

Just checked the latest coefficient. It's been a whole since I had a proper look but the Scottish league is 24th. WOW!!! Never realised it was that bad. Switzerland, Greece, Czech Rep, Austria, Romania, Israel, Cyprus, Croatia, Poland, Denmark, Belarus, and Sweden are all ahead. Last time I looked properly Scotland was 14th just behind Belgium and Turkey.

It was 7th in 2008 and always on the outskirts of the top ten. Problem is, the Europa League is very close to the CL in terms of points earned, which of course is ridiculous. When Celtic got to the last 16 two years ago and three Czech teams got to the first stage of the Europa League they gathered roughly the same amount of points which is ridiculous. So without Rangers we effectively have one team trying to collect all the points for the league as the rest have to go through 3/4 qualifying rounds to even get to the EL groupstages , just a vicious cycle. Once Rangers are back in Europe they will have so few points left they will be unseeded and thus find it tough to make it in to the group stages (probably Europa) too.

When is that likely to be?
First of all they are far from certain to win the Championship, then, if promoted they are far from certain to finish in European position, then even if they did they are far from certain to get through qualification and so Rangers' (and Celtic) in a few years might never make it to the actual proper rounds of a European competition again, and frankly, they don't really deserve to based on the current situation. ALthough, that was probably your point. I just think stating "once Rangers are back in Europe" is a bit presumptious.

Unless they change to Summer football and stop pretending that the SPL can compete with big leagues, then they'll never be in a position to make any headway in European football. No one decent wants to play for them and many of the teams they face in qualification are so far ahead due to summer football, that it makes it even less likely.

Europe won't really miss Scottish teams in the competition, that's for sure, but it must be hard for the fans to watch once medium sized and reasonably well financed teams with a modicum of European "success" become selling clubs for lower tier, second rate English Premiership and Championship teams and I can't see that changing unless the old farts at the SPL change things very very drastically.
THe SPL, despite keeping attendances respectable is a dying product in terms of quality reflected in their catastrophically bad UEFA rank and coefficient.

So what's the point just complaining about it? Dundee United and to a lesser extent Aberdeen have put faith in their youth Academy and are beginning to see the results. The Money United have made will cover their youth system and wages for the next few years. The main problem like i said is it will take a number of years for us to build up any sort momentum in the coefficient, I never mentioned when Rangers would get back in to Europe but it will be soon, they only have to finish in the top four of the EPL which even now I would give them a pretty good chance of doing. The only hope for revival is with the Old Firm back in Europe and dragging the rest along picking up points where they can, it was only 6 years ago Aberdeen beat Danish Champions FC Copenhagen 4-0, that league is now much higher than ours. Leagues go through peaks and troughs, look at Serie A, unquestionably the no.1 league in the world to the early noughties now only the 4th.

I don't think anyone expects the SPL to "compete with the big leagues" the money differential is absolutely huge, what they should be able to do however is compete with the likes of the Danish, Belgian,Czech leagues etc, not one side from those leagues can compare to Rangers or Celtic (possibly Anderlecht) but the discrepancy in quality from top to bottom is much much less compared to our league.

I'm not just complaining about it, I suggest changes (summer football), and whilst United and Aberdeen might have put their "faith" (hate that word) in Youth, it still results in being a selling club/league, United have always been a selling club, now Celtic are too. NOthing wrong with that, but can't be great for fans of Celtic to see their team fall so far.

It's a highly realistic scenario (and already very close) that no Scottish teams will qualify for Europe in future, and living in the past like Celtic/Rangers ("we're so big that we should be in") is a very big reason for their continued failure.

Teams from those leagues certainly can compete/compare with Rangers and Celtic, and given the recent thumping by Legia, bears it out.
I also don't think any of us know enough about Czech, Polish, Belgian leagues etc to say whether the SPL is better top to bottom.

Depends what you mean "compare", when it comes to actually playing football (which is all that matters), they certainly can and often surpass Scottish teams, when it comes to living in the past and thinking you are a bigger club that you are, perhaps they don't.

Accepting you are a small nation with an inferior league is the start of the improvement. Playing in the depths of winter in appalling weather cannot be good for the technical and skill aspects of any team and really ought to be the start of a change.
Too bad the old farts at the SPL are too concerned with "tradition" rather than improvement.

Unless you're Real/Barca/Bayern you're a selling club

"Continued Failure"

I really wish you'd tell the truth instead of spitting hate filled tirades through your obvious distaine for Celtic, no matter what you say to the contrary it's obvious. 

Lets just put this to bed and hopefully give you some food for thought, Scotland arw a tiny Country, in the past 16 Seasons Scotland have been represented in the Champions League 14 times, 3 of those 14 seasons saw two teams compete in the competition, of the 22 years the competiton has been running, Scotland have been represented in the Champions League on 17 separate occassions, your opinion on Scotish Football is completely invalid because you are never honest about it, I find it tiresome having to constantly correct you because your opinon on the Scottiah game sounds like it comes straight from Adrian Durham.

I've challenged you on many occassions over the last few years to come up with something organic, have a valid reason behind what you say,  something truly genuine, until then saying things like "Continued Failure" just shows you up for having a severe lack of knowledge and understanding on something you want everyone to hear your opinon on!

It's not a disdain for Celtic, it's a question of how Scottish Football can stop the slide in terms of its coefficient/league ranking and rather obvious downturn in achievement, investment and "success"
Is that slide not a concern?

It looks likely that Scottish teams are going to find it harder and harder to qualify for Europe. You don't think that is true?

You seem perfectly happy with the league becoming worse and worse. That's the concerning thing.

There's a chance Celtic could beat Maribor and progress, but they are worse than they were last year when they were in the CL, how well could they be expected to do if they do get through?

You should be happy that someone actually comments on your threads for a change, as most of the time you are just posting to yourself with hardly any replies.

Its clearly disdain, ypu can dress it up however you like but the buzz words of choice you like to enter into a sentence, things like "Continued Failure" give you away, I'd like you to explain this "continued failure" because there is absolutely nothing to support that sort of language!

How can Scottish Football stop the slide? Well I remember two years ago you said the same thing when our league was 29th, it moved up to 23rd I think, not the biggest leap but it shows that we're moving in the right direction - Yes? Particularly in a period when we've lost one of our biggest contributors to the coefficient

Does it look harder for Scottish teams to qualify?  What Scottish side in the last 20 years apart from Aberdeen in 07/08 have did well in Europe? Will it be harder for Celtic as Champions? Time will tell but I believe if they're run correctly then the Champions Rout should be confidently negotiable 3/4 times out of 5 -  Take tonight, Maribor are a very decent side, they are the size of a St Johnstone though and with that they rake in similar sort of money to St Johnstone,  their players aren't on major money either, Celtic with their wage bill, if run properly should be able to attract a quality and standard of player that can get through these ties, asit is at the moment I believe we are far to disjointed,  if we qualify this year it'll be the biggest win out of the last 3, i wouldn't bey money on it though!

I seem "Happy" with the league becoming worse and worse? Thats a nonsense statement and again shows your lack of "realism" 9 of the 12 top flight clubs last year posted a higher average attendance tha  the previous year, the percentage of non Old Firm fans attending Football in Scotland is higher than its been in years, the standard of football, something you'll not truly understand since its obvious you don't actually watch it is very good,  it doesn't have the razzmatazz of Down South but thats because we don't have the money, we are also marginalised by SKY, the 15 minute build ups to games on the arse-end sports channels all contribute to views on our game.

Our clubs are posting profits again, something unheard of in Football, our clubs are living well within their means and producong good young talent, every club has at least one player you think will get them decent money, thats another positive - in the domestic Cup scene, in the last 10 competitions,  9 different clubs have won a trophy, this gives fans of a lot of clubs hope/reason for optimism, this is why fans are going to games, this is why per head of population Scotland has one of the most supported leaguenstructures in Europe, the SPFL is also shown in more countries world wide tha  every other League in Europe outwoth the Premiership, Bundesliga, Laliga, Serie A and the Poetugese top flight.

Celtic are probably worse than  they were at this stage last year, thats the whole point though, we have to wait until we qualify for the Champions League before we can spend money or before our targets want to come here, Scotlands Champions shouldn't have to qualify for the Champions League though, 14 of the last 16 Seasons has saw Scotland represented, that for me proves our Champions do belong in this stage,  if Celtic had automatic quakification then thwy could buy players earlier in the Summer, more likely get their firat/second choice targets, by the time we have to negotiate past the qualifiers most of ourntargeta are gone and we are into the 5th/6th/7th choice targets, its the curse of the Small country.

As foe your whole "should be happy that someone actually comments" remark, I use this thread to update the squad stats so I can refer to it when discussing particular games on other forums better suited to discussing Scottish Football! 

If you offered anything remotely honest, organic and worthwhile then your content would be greatly appreciated, unfortunately you don't because despite having such a loud and brash opinoon of Scottish Football, you don't truly know or understand much about it despite the countless times you've had to be corrected.

It might have moved up, but that doesn't mean coefficient isn't currently falling as it is according to UEFA tables.

If the coefficent drops further, what happens if the "champions" lose their seeding in qualification? Scotland will be in a hopeless state if that happens as they'll come up against teams they haven't a hope of beating.
I doubt Legia Warsaw players are on much, Celtic will be on a lot more than them, but it was a holocaust for Celtic. I wouldn't be surprised if Celtic squeeze through, but I wouldn't be surprised if they got another humping either.

I personally think Scottish football has been more "refreshing" since Rangers have been out. I don't think they've been missed as it gives more clubs the option to compete and I sincerely hope they don't get promoted this year.

OK lets say Scotlands Champions lose their seeding, who are these teams they could face that they haven't got a hope of beating?

Well, this year if Celtic were an unseeded team and they'd be facing either:
Salzburg,
Steaua
Nicosia
BOrisov and 1 other (in place of Celtic)

You think you'd get through them more often than not? Only Borisov have a lower coefficient. They needed a stroke of luck to get through the last round, and every year it will be round 2, 3 and 4 Celtic have to negotiate.

At least a summer league, would mean they weren't starting on the back foot, off fitness, and out of match practice. Obviously Scottish teams will never compete in Europe anymore, but they need to make sure they are qualifying in order to get a few decent players in.

Celtic have a wage budget of £30m - I think a budget around that figure is enough to be confident you can attract the quality needed to negotiate past those teams although it would obviously be difficult, Celtic have a strict wage structure now though were the top earners won't get more than £18k per week (Scott Brown aside), I feel their blueprint is OK but needs teaked,  they need to raise the wage bill up to £25-30k for 4/5 players in order to attract a better quality of player, thats for another discussion though, but with a wage bull that high then I believe they are capable of having a standard of player that could compete against these sides, absolutely!

Kay Fabe wrote:Celtic have a wage budget of £30m - I think a budget around that figure is enough to be confident you can  attract the quakity needed to negotiate past those teams although it would obviously be difficult, Celtic have a strict wage structure now though were the top earners won't get more than £18k per week, I feel thsir blueprint is OK but needs teaked, I think they need to raise the wage bill up to £25-30k for 4/5 players in order to attract a better quality of player, thats for another discussion though, but with a wage bull that high then I believe they are capable of having a standard of player that could compete against these sides, absolutely!

So they have a 30m wage budget and they can't even compete with a team like Legia? Clearly they aren't finding quality players easy to come by. It can't all be down to Deila and tactics.

Be interesting to see what happens tonight. Forster is a massive loss for Celtic, Sicknote Gordon might be good enough for the weak strikers of the SPL, but not sure about Europe, even at this lowly stage.

I've been quite critical of the team for their Legia performance, already said that there was no doubt Legia were far superior all over the pitch but I'm not sure if thats because Legia had better players than  Celtic or simply had a far more settled side playing in a formation they were all comfortable with, Deila has been using the 4-2-3-1 but hasn't been able to play a winger yet due to Forrest, Boerrigter and now Tonev's injuries, he was putting square pegs in round holes and the loss of Scott Brown to the midfield was catastrophic for him.

I think the players are still way short of the standard required but firmly believe that the players there are more than capable to match Legia if they had a formation that suited them, thats only an observation,  not one with blinkers though, no doubt a better standard of player is required but with the wage structure on £18k max, its hard to attract the level of player required, thats why I said the blueprint needs tweaked, quality over quantity and instead of having 33 players in the first team squad, have 24/25 players and raise the wage bill to the £25-30k mark for 4/5 far better standard than what they have currently.

Sounds fair enough Kay, but I can't help feeling that Scottish Football is seen as a bit of a joke to others, used to be a good place to earn a few quid before retiral, but they don't pay great these days, and there are nicer places to spend your time if you are trying to engineer a move upwards.

super_realist wrote:I'm not just complaining about it, I suggest changes (summer football), and whilst United and Aberdeen might have put their "faith" (hate that word) in Youth, it still results in being a selling club/league, United have always been a selling club, now Celtic are too. NOthing wrong with that, but can't be great for fans of Celtic to see their team fall so far.

It's a highly realistic scenario (and already very close) that no Scottish teams will qualify for Europe in future, and living in the past like Celtic/Rangers ("we're so big that we should be in") is a very big reason for their continued failure.

Teams from those leagues certainly can compete/compare with Rangers and Celtic, and given the recent thumping by Legia, bears it out.
I also don't think any of us know enough about Czech, Polish, Belgian leagues etc to say whether the SPL is better top to bottom.

Depends what you mean "compare", when it comes to actually playing football (which is all that matters), they certainly can and often surpass Scottish teams, when it comes to living in the past and thinking you are a bigger club that you are, perhaps they don't.

Accepting you are a small nation with an inferior league is the start of the improvement. Playing in the depths of winter in appalling weather cannot be good for the technical and skill aspects of any team and really ought to be the start of a change.
Too bad the old farts at the SPL are too concerned with "tradition" rather than improvement.

My point was more Dundee United have used their youth and have made vast sums (relatively speaking) of money as opposed to like most of the league bringing in complete league one/two journeymen for a season or two then passing them around the league. Now there are a number of strong young players that could actually excite, can't remember the last time i went out of my way to watch Dundee United until last year when Gauld and co went through a superb period of form and were actually entertaining and technically impressive (so rare in Scottish football). It might take a few years but if they are raking in 5+ million a year in transfers through their youths suddenly they have money to spend themselves and the quality of player improves, thus making them far more appealing for the fans to come fill the stadium every week.

That's not what i meant, i said those leagues are better top to bottom, I follow the Belgian league and Genk, Standard Liege,Zulte Waregem ,Anderlecht, Gent, Lokeren are all solid teams able to make it to the group stages of the EL and able to spend around a million on transfer fees (more in the case of SL and Anderlecht). None of the countries I have mentioned though have the attraction of the Old Firm, even three years back Roland Juhasz who was Anderlechts captain begged to leave the club because he thought Rangers were a big step in his career. The problem is the third, fourth,fifth teams in those leagues are much stronger than the SPL, which is why we struggle to much in the coeff in comparison. It might take years to bridge the gap but proper investment in youth, like my Dad's team Hamilton (middle of the road club) produced 15 million pound James McCarthy, James McCarthur and Brian Easton who all went on to the PL. Outside DU and the Old Firm, none of the SPL clubs with their shoddy youth systems have produced anything close to that amount. The emphasis needs to change and if it does i see no reason why we can't get our two CL spots back.

To be fair, THe OF were partly guilty for making the league as uncompetitive as it has been

There were lots of good players around, especially from Dundee United, Kilmarnock, Hibs and even some Hearts players who were asset stripped and benched or seldomly played by the OF and then eventually sold off a season or so  later.

Then they turn round and say the league isn't good enough for them and they want to go to England.