Be patient let Groves learn - No rematch for now!

Very impressed in and out of the ring with this guy.....What a fight to take and in some ways alot harder to win than most World titles. Credit to Degale too but more for this guy who was unbeaten and could of gone an easier way. Most viewed him as a victory for Degale...

Thing is he's still green and has earned some less than stressful fights before trying to attain World status...

Sure he could have a rivalry with Degale but remember Eubank-Benn etc did it at World level. Makes no sense for these guys to drain themselves and get old prematurely by mixing it at domestic level....Rematch can come much later for more money!!

Groves has alot of character, skill, heart etc to be a big star and he's earned the right to learn his trade more....

As for Degale the loss isn't that damaging...close fight, a lot of PR and exposure...

He'll come good but in a different alphabet direction than Groves!

I think it depends what direction Groves takes. I think it would be increasingly hard for him to ignore the pressure for a rematch unless he cracks on to Euro level now.

There isnt really anyone else domestically unless you consider Magee domestic level.

I still see him in the developmental phase but I dont think theres enogh credible options at domestic level outside DeGale to warrant staying there and if he does stay at domstic level then one way or another he will have to meet DeGale again either through mandatory obligations or pressure for a rematch.

The current Euro belt holder is probably a realistic target for a couple of fights down the line.

Just doesn't seem practical to wear eachother out at a domestic level...

Few more fights and search for a world title...

rematch is more profitable with a belt at stake..

I agree that a rematch down the line is a great idea. Too often these days we have fighters squaring off and then avoid rematches until they're too late in the day to be of any sgnificance any longer.

To be honest, I couldn't care less if neither of them hold a World title when they fight. A good contest is a good contest irrespective of which belt they have wrapped around their waist (although I do appreciate it would generate more revenue) but it shouldn't necessarily be a dealbreaker. The danger is that in pushing too hard for World honours to then contest, one or both come unstuck and all hopes of a third fight get flushed down the lavvy.

Your right Truss, the loss for Degale isn't damaging and hopefully he learns that he needs to let his fists do the talking in future, and keep that dirty mouth shut. I too believe that both fighters should go their seperate ways for now as the fight showed that both have a long way to go, Degale and McDonnell better get used to diferrent styles as not everyone turns up to be a punchbag. Groves is still a bit away from world level as is Degale, maybe Groves should lokk to add the Eurpean strap and gain some experience there before looking to step up again. I don't think there's any need for a rematch. The fight was close, but had the decision gone to Degale, Warren would be laughing off shouts of a rematch.

Every fighter wants to be World champion....Getting old punching the stuffing out of a guy twice at domestic level doesn't seem plausible...

want to be at your best when you fight for the title....

If they come a cropper whilst doing it..

one of those things.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Just doesn't seem practical to wear eachother out at a domestic level...

Few more fights and search for a world title...

rematch is more profitable with a belt at stake..

I agree but I still think both are some distance short of getting a world title given the division at present. I cant see them being matched with any of the 4 title hlders anytime soon so I think its assuming too much to say they will be be world level operators in the future. Very difficult to say.

DeGale will really want to avenge that defeat so I would expect alot of pressure to be put on Groves to give him the rematch and the only way Groves can remove that pressure is to move onwards and leave DeGale trailing.

As has been said already, Fish-face would laugh at any rematch requests if his fighter had won, so I think for the immediate future Groves and his team are right to tell old one-lung to shove it.

Every fighter wants to be a world champion but not everyone makes it...even with the proliferation of belts and organisations these days.

I'm just saying that if the focus is to win a World title with the main aim being a unification match down the line, there's every chance, one or both come unstuck. I'm talking more about the promotors who will undoubtedly try to outdo one another.

In fact, the rivalry between Hayemaker and Warren is better than between some of their fighters.

They can have a rematch if one of them gets beat anyway....

always be a grudge match

i think the two of them should meet further downt he line, not just because it will be a bigger figtht. No one seems to mention that they will have more talent in a few years, they will of developed their skills and it could be a more exiting fight. Both were a little cagey and understandibly, get them in there when they have had 20 odd fights each, belt or no belt and it would be even better.

i think Degale should take on anderson, like someone said. Coming off a loss, stick him on the undercard of Burns or something, see if he does a job on him. Groves could even fight Smith who altho not better than degale is still decent opp in Groves 14th fight. Then euro belt maybe a fight with magee in 18months. If he comes through that then he can star picking away at the tope 15 guys in the division. But he still only had 13 fights. Loads to learn, i personally wouldnt mind him fighting below world level for tow more years. still only be 25.Degale is the one i am keen to see, i think hell rush to try get the WBO belt now, i really do. Hell want to get out in front of Groves even more now, and Warren can get him that one no problem. Maybe helll even go over to germany. who knows. very interesting.

Having picked up the British title, I'll be suprised if Groves doesn't want a couple of defences so he can get himself a Lonsdale belt to keep, he can even do this whilst challenging Magee so moving on to Euro level too.
Also I'm sure Groves will get some further satisfaction out of having the Lonsdale belt to keep, as I'm sure a full set of British, Commenwealth, Euro and world titles was what Degale was after and if groves doesn't offer a rematch until he is on the world level Degale won't acheive this as he will also have moved on past British title level by the time Groves vacates.
The rematch will no doubt wait until at least one if not both have a world title.

If Degale becomes mandatory challenger to Groves in a few months times,Groves will be forced to fight Degale unless Groves gives up the belt. The rematch could be a few fights sooner than most people think. It all depends on where Groves goes from here though.

I think both need a couple more fights before thinking about moving up. I still think Degale will move quicker than Groves with him maybe facing Wilczewski next year.
Trouble for Degale would be if Groves beat him again.

Here's a possible scenario by which Groves accomplishes all his goals, avoids the clamour for an immediate rematch with DeGale and gains invaluable experience over the next couple of years.

1) First defence of British & Comm titles against mandatory contender some time in the autumn (won't be DeGale).

2) Second defence of B&C titles in the early spring of next year - Groves probably will be allowed a voluntary, so won't have to be against DeGale, even if he is the mandatory challenger by then. If successful, earns outright Lonsdale belt.

3) If that second defence was not against Magee for the European title as well (which would be ideal), time for a shot at the European title at 168 in the summer of 2012.

4) One or two defences of the EU title, getting rid of any Germans/Russians who tend to clog up the upper reaches of the world rankings in this division along the way. Accomplished by the end of 2012 or first couple of months of 2013 at the latest.

5) Late spring of 2013 - Fight against world ranked contender, which could even be a world title eliminator.

6) Autumn of 2013 - world title shot

7) Groves' first defence almost exactly three years from now - DeGale, perhaps, possibly even with his own belt?

In this optimistic scenario, Groves wins a world belt in his 20th fight in late 2013, still aged only 25. A fight with DeGale could happen when he is 26 and DeGale still only 28. Both will be much more mature, rounded fighters and both may be bringing belts to the table.

Result - technically, a much better fight, involving incalculably more money.
Winners - we, the boxing public, for a change. Let's hope my optimism isn't misplaced.

Excellent post, and plan, Captain. Fingers crossed eh!

captain carrantuohil wrote:Here's a possible scenario by which Groves accomplishes all his goals, avoids the clamour for an immediate rematch with DeGale and gains invaluable experience over the next couple of years.

1) First defence of British & Comm titles against mandatory contender some time in the autumn (won't be DeGale).

2) Second defence of B&C titles in the early spring of next year - Groves probably will be allowed a voluntary, so won't have to be against DeGale, even if he is the mandatory challenger by then. If successful, earns outright Lonsdale belt.

3) If that second defence was not against Magee for the European title (which would be ideal), time for a shot at the European title at 168 in the summer of 2012.

4) One or two defences of the EU title, getting rid of any Germans/Russians who tend to clog up the upper reaches of the world rankings in this division along the way. Accomplished by the end of 2012 or first couple of months of 2013 at the latest.

5) Late spring of 2013 - Fight against world ranked contender, which could even be a world title eliminator.

6) Autumn of 2013 - world title shot

7) Groves' first defence almost exactly three years from now - DeGale, perhaps, possibly even with his own belt?

In this optimistic scenario, Groves wins a world belt in his 20th fight in late 2013, still aged only 25. A fight with DeGale could happen when he is 26 and DeGale still only 28. Both will be much more mature, rounded fighters and both may be bringing belts to the table.

Result - technically, a much better fight, involving incalculably more money.
Winners - we, the boxing public, for a change. Let's hope my optimism isn't misplaced.

Good post. I agree and have said on here that GG is 6-7 fights away from a world belt fight. Degale can follow a similar path and they will both have a unification fight. A fight at that stage will be huge and generate loads of PPV buys in the UK.

Agree entirely with Truss' sentiment and hope the captain's imaginings are reflected in reality.

Not sure a re-match does anything for either fighter's career at the minute - particularly Groves - but even if De Gale was to win, it could possible inflate his ego even further and see him rest on his laurels and fall back into bad habits.

A re-match in 2/3 years (all being well in the interim) would be perfect.

Spot on there Truss with your points. Groves did very well and handles himself well inside and outside of the ring.
The BBBofC are not ordering any rematch which is a good thing and now they make a statement in regards to Degale now has to get himself back into the mandortary slot which is only fair.
I think his team will take a bit of time out and look over there options and i hope Degale looks at how to improve on his overall technical ability and not just think that he was on the end of a bad decision.
Give them 2 or 3 years before a rematch no point now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A84867213

Nice to know I was one of the few people who picked Groves...Groves beats Degale in a rematch now or in a couple of years.

The genius of PBF wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A84867213

Nice to know I was one of the few people who picked Groves...Groves beats Degale in a rematch now or in a couple of years.

I think when Groves beat Anderson it was allot to do with Anderson running out of steam after only having a couple weeks to prepare for the fight, I would like to see Groves and Smith and I bet you it will be a closer fight than the Smith Degale one..... had Anderson been stronger and fitter he would have beat Groves IMO.. and Degale threw his fight away by throwing few punches which permitted Groves to take rounds with out even giving Degale any real problems but just throwing more punches on the back foot.. I get the feeling Booth won that fight. (with all respect to Groves)

I think Groves does have potential and may well go on to get better and better, he certainly has the coach for it IMO. But I think if him and Degale continue to improve at the same rate then the next time they fight Degale with beat him easy.. this is assuming that Degale grows up a bit and has his feet on the ground then, understanding that he does not just need to show up and look good to win a fight.

Beat him easy...just like most said he would last time out

tunes666 wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A84867213

Nice to know I was one of the few people who picked Groves...Groves beats Degale in a rematch now or in a couple of years.

I think when Groves beat Anderson it was allot to do with Anderson running out of steam after only having a couple weeks to prepare for the fight, I would like to see Groves and Smith and I bet you it will be a closer fight than the Smith Degale one..... had Anderson been stronger and fitter he would have beat Groves IMO.. and Degale threw his fight away by throwing few punches which permitted Groves to take rounds with out even giving Degale any real problems but just throwing more punches on the back foot.. I get the feeling Booth won that fight. (with all respect to Groves)

I think Groves does have potential and may well go on to get better and better, he certainly has the coach for it IMO. But I think if him and Degale continue to improve at the same rate then the next time they fight Degale with beat him easy.. this is assuming that Degale grows up a bit and has his feet on the ground then, understanding that he does not just need to show up and look good to win a fight.

Why do people still insist that Degale lost as opposed to Groves winning the fight? Degale didn't throw enough punches because when he did, Groves countered him making him hesitant. Groves won because he boxed smarter and because he is better.

As for Anderson, once again, no credit to Groves for the sapping body shots which slowed Anderson down. Groves planted his feet and fired back. Give credit where its due.

Looking forward to how both boxers careers develop. They are both very talented fighters and still very much learning.

I think both can go onto compete at world Level and hopefully then we will see 'Prime' versions meeting in a rematch.

WelshDevilRob wrote:Looking forward to how both boxers careers develop. They are both very talented fighters and still very much learning.

I think both can go onto compete at world Level and hopefully then we will see 'Prime' versions meeting in a rematch.

Groves will still win because he has one thing that Degale lacks. Intelligence. At first I thought it was only boxing intelligence. But watching the build up and Degale making a total tool of himself as soon as he opened his mouth, it wasn't just boxing intelligence he lacked.

Degale is a poisonous little toad...

azania wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A84867213

Nice to know I was one of the few people who picked Groves...Groves beats Degale in a rematch now or in a couple of years.

I think when Groves beat Anderson it was allot to do with Anderson running out of steam after only having a couple weeks to prepare for the fight, I would like to see Groves and Smith and I bet you it will be a closer fight than the Smith Degale one..... had Anderson been stronger and fitter he would have beat Groves IMO.. and Degale threw his fight away by throwing few punches which permitted Groves to take rounds with out even giving Degale any real problems but just throwing more punches on the back foot.. I get the feeling Booth won that fight. (with all respect to Groves)

I think Groves does have potential and may well go on to get better and better, he certainly has the coach for it IMO. But I think if him and Degale continue to improve at the same rate then the next time they fight Degale with beat him easy.. this is assuming that Degale grows up a bit and has his feet on the ground then, understanding that he does not just need to show up and look good to win a fight.

Why do people still insist that Degale lost as opposed to Groves winning the fight? Degale didn't throw enough punches because when he did, Groves countered him making him hesitant. Groves won because he boxed smarter and because he is better.

As for Anderson, once again, no credit to Groves for the sapping body shots which slowed Anderson down. Groves planted his feet and fired back. Give credit where its due.

Exactly Azania he didn't want to throw because he was scared of being countered...James Degale is not a versatile fighter he fights the same way all the time...He is so overrated by most fans it's unreal.

It's pathetic the amount of excuses people are making for Degale...they cant accept being wrong with their predictions that Degale was going to destroy Groves.

azania wrote:

WelshDevilRob wrote:Looking forward to how both boxers careers develop. They are both very talented fighters and still very much learning.

I think both can go onto compete at world Level and hopefully then we will see 'Prime' versions meeting in a rematch.

Groves will still win because he has one thing that Degale lacks. Intelligence. At first I thought it was only boxing intelligence. But watching the build up and Degale making a total tool of himself as soon as he opened his mouth, it wasn't just boxing intelligence he lacked.

Yeah he did seem pretty dumb. He's got talent but I agree that Groves has his 'number'. Be interesting journey to follow and good to have two guys in the same weight class who can go onto achieve good things.

Bit too early in either of their careers to suggest Groves has his number, there's no real indication of how either will perform at the top top level nor do we know how quickly they will progress

A one point victory isnt really a decent guage of either fighter being better, let alone having their number. Groves fought the smarter fight, I still had Degale by one, but wouldnt complain about the result.

The reason why I believe Groves has his number is simply because Groves is more adaptable and more intelligent. Plus degale knows that he has been beaten twice by the same guy and in the next fight will be more reckless. Whatever style he uses, Groves has the answer to.

Need to see how they progress first before jumping to assumptions, both are still relative novices especially considering how their fight could have gone either way

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Need to see how they progress first before jumping to assumptions, both are still relative novices especially considering how their fight could have gone either way

Obviously. But this is hypothetical.

True, think the best thing Degale could do is get a better trainer, McCracken would probably be the best bet, as you've alluded to he does appear to lack in ring intelligence so needs a top level trainer to tell him exactly what to do

He's beaten him once in the pros, I dont believe it can be assumed he has the answer whatever style Degale chooses. Groves showed he has the discipline to stick to a game plan, but he scraped home by a point. A man who has all the answers would comfortably UD his opponent.

Day V Lately wrote:He's beaten him once in the pros, I dont believe it can be assumed he has the answer whatever style Degale chooses. Groves showed he has the discipline to stick to a game plan, but he scraped home by a point. A man who has all the answers would comfortably UD his opponent.

Degale showed that he, at this point, cannot vary his game to counter what he didn't expect. A basic flaw which exposes his lack of intelligence. Groves has shown he can.

Groves proved he can follow a gameplan more than anything, the real winner of the fight was Adam Booth with his tactics

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Groves proved he can follow a gameplan more than anything, the real winner of the fight was Adam Booth with his tactics

Groves was the winner for implimenting the tactics. Give Groves the credit. Far too many are saying that Degale lost it. Not you are saying Booth won it for Groves. Where is the credit for Groves in all this. After all Booth wasn't in the ring with him when degale was trying to hit him.

Yes Booth provided Groves with the correct tactics. If Groves didn't have the intelligence and skill to go against his natural instinct then he could have lost.

These pair will fight again soon trust me

Frank will offer them a shed load of money for a rematch. They will take it. Then Frank will stick Cleverly v Bellew on the same card and charge everyone £15 to watch it

azania wrote:
Why do people still insist that Degale lost as opposed to Groves winning the fight? Degale didn't throw enough punches because when he did, Groves countered him making him hesitant. Groves won because he boxed smarter and because he is better.

I dont believe so, I actually think Degale had more rounds to be honest.. although I do agree that Groves had the better game plan, Degale looked like he was improvising where Groves was clinging on to a game plan with both hands..

I do think Groves went into the fight more grounded and mature and I think allot of that is to do with a very secure and intelligent corner, as opposed to Degales which I am less than convinced with, especially when they were hanging off of Degales shoulder when he was betting Groves in the pre match conference..

When the two guys where trading it was certainly not always Groves on top, in fact when they traded it was more Degale who got the cleaner shots and a couple times looked to have shook Groves.. What I think Degale did wrong was he was almost too patient and over confident. He was not reacting to Groves enough and was waiting for an opening that did not always come because of Groves constant movement.. As a result Degale at times did not look very busy and it permitted Groves to nick rounds where he him self did not do much. when the alarm bells were ringing Degale did throw more and if he did that the whole fight I think he would have clearly won.

As for Anderson, once again, no credit to Groves for the sapping body shots which slowed Anderson down. Groves planted his feet and fired back. Give credit where its due.

My point was that he has been given Credit for that fight, in fighting back to win, and I personally think it was a poor performance and people like to ignore that Anderson did not have much time to prepare for the fight and was only conditioned for 6 rounds..

Go and have a look at his fights, he was a 6 round fighter with only 2 weeks to prepare for the fight and what round was he stopped in? Yes Groves used body shots because that's what you do to take advantage of a tiring fighter.

Steffan wrote:These pair will fight again soon trust me

Frank will offer them a shed load of money for a rematch. They will take it. Then Frank will stick Cleverly v Bellew on the same card and charge everyone £15 to watch it

Not sure, While I think Degale would win it there is still an element of Risk there as if he had a poor fight or a dodgy decision, then it really would be a set back... I fancy Warren to go on a mission to over take Groves elsewhere and then set up a rematch once Degale has dusted this one away... Also Groves wont want the fight as this was a great win for him, a rematch would risk giving it back, why would he want to do that?

The genius of PBF wrote:

azania wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

The genius of PBF wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A84867213

Nice to know I was one of the few people who picked Groves...Groves beats Degale in a rematch now or in a couple of years.

I think when Groves beat Anderson it was allot to do with Anderson running out of steam after only having a couple weeks to prepare for the fight, I would like to see Groves and Smith and I bet you it will be a closer fight than the Smith Degale one..... had Anderson been stronger and fitter he would have beat Groves IMO.. and Degale threw his fight away by throwing few punches which permitted Groves to take rounds with out even giving Degale any real problems but just throwing more punches on the back foot.. I get the feeling Booth won that fight. (with all respect to Groves)

I think Groves does have potential and may well go on to get better and better, he certainly has the coach for it IMO. But I think if him and Degale continue to improve at the same rate then the next time they fight Degale with beat him easy.. this is assuming that Degale grows up a bit and has his feet on the ground then, understanding that he does not just need to show up and look good to win a fight.

Why do people still insist that Degale lost as opposed to Groves winning the fight? Degale didn't throw enough punches because when he did, Groves countered him making him hesitant. Groves won because he boxed smarter and because he is better.

As for Anderson, once again, no credit to Groves for the sapping body shots which slowed Anderson down. Groves planted his feet and fired back. Give credit where its due.

Exactly Azania he didn't want to throw because he was scared of being countered...James Degale is not a versatile fighter he fights the same way all the time...He is so overrated by most fans it's unreal.

It's pathetic the amount of excuses people are making for Degale...they cant accept being wrong with their predictions that Degale was going to destroy Groves.

I would be the first to hold my hands up and say Groves did much better than I thought he would, or maybe Degale fell short on some things, But I also saw Groves fight completely different to the way he has before, suggesting that for this fight his team new that if he did, he would have lost. Degales flaw was that he, or his corner had no answers to the new Groves, when that was their job.

The bottom line, while I do think Degale shaded the fight, it was very even And if you take into account that Groves has been praised for getting his game plan spot on while Degale pretty much slagged off for not getting it right, it puts into perspective what an easy night Degale would have had if he also implemented a good game plan. At this stage in their career it is their trainers that give them their dynamics and if Degale as a fighter can not deal with things not going his way in a fight then why when faced with a guy who supposedly had his number did he fight such a close fight?

We can all see that Degale had a poor fight and Groves a great one, and the fight was incredibly close with many feeling Degale was unlucky not to win... Bottom line.