Where does Walker's draw with Sharkey rank in the list of all-time great results?

Afternoon all, just one to ponder for anyone who fancies talking about anything other than Golovkin.

I tend to rate Mickey Walker a bit higher than others on here do when it comes to considering the all-time pound for pound lists, primarily because he's one of a small handful of fighters who can claim to be within the top dozen or so in two of the original weight classes, in Walker's case Welterweight and Middleweight. I still believe his accomplishments at these weights are enough to make him a real candidate for an all-time top twenty spot, pound for pound, but it's one of his achievements in a higher weight class which I want to talk about here.

Just how good a result, in the context of history, is Walker's 1931 draw with future Heavyweight champion Jack Sharkey? One of the best of its era (or any era)? Or merely a good result made to appear great by extenuating circumstances? Where would you rank it in comparison to other really notable results which have stretched the limits of what we thought we could expect?

Let's get the positives out of the way. Walker was spotting over two stone (169 lb to Sharkey's 198) to his opponent, as well as five inches in height and nine inches in reach. Walker was not particularly big even at Middleweight, where he won the title in 1927 from Tiger Flowers, conqueror of his bitter rival Harry Greb who had turned back Walker's first attempt at the 160 lb crown two years before; he didn't graduate to the Middleweight division until he was about 24 years of age, and even after that point spent much of the next three years or so dropping back down to around 153 / 154 lb, effectively operating as a Light-Middleweight, which may have been his best weight class had he fought in an era where it existed.

He was already going some to compete as a small Light-Heavyweight and had to make a conscious effort to increase his weight up to around twelve stone, rather than it being a case of growing in to a deceptively large frame which he'd agonized in squeezing down in weight when he was a young lad (ala Pacquiao and his run from Light-Flyweight to Welter over the years). Also, Sharkey was no bloated case, either. He was a proper Heavyweight of the time who was in good physical condition at or around 200 lb - nothing James Toney about him!

What about the actual draw verdict itself? Well, if the United Press are to be believed, it was Sharkey who should have felt hard done by - they argued that he'd put in a career-best shift, for once not including any of his famous lapses in concetration and discipline, and should have been awarded the win despite Walker's plucky effort. On the other hand, Damon Runyon, writing for the Herald, asked fourteen paying spectators who they thought had won, and ten of them went with Walker. Such contrasting opinions make it a little difficult to get an accurate gauge on whether or not Walker's showing was worthy of a share of the spoils, or even if either party can count themselves unlucky, which is a problem. There is limited footage of the fight which can be found online, which seems to show Walker landing the more eye-catching shots, but you can never be sure how this footage was trimmed and how it stacks up against the much larger chunk of the fight which isn't available.

But moreover, to Walker's credit, Sharkey had been in good form in the run up to this fight. Since one of those aforementioned lapses which cost him against Jack Dempsey in 1927, he'd only lost twice, once on a controversial split decision to Johnny Risko (who, believe it or not, was briefly considered the next likely top man and genuine champion at Heavyweight once Gene Tunney had retired) and then on an equally contentious disqualification in a Heavyweight title fight against Max Schmeling in their first title fight. After drawing with Walker, Sharkey would handily outbox the 260 lb plus Primo Carnera, another future Heavyweight champion, and go on to outscore Schmeling in their rematch to lift the title.

On that form line, then, considering the weight differential, the fact that Sharkey's form on paper either side of the Walker fight made him a serious contender to be the best Heavyweight in the world (albeit for a short period of time) and also that Walker, regardless of who exactly most observers felt won, had held his own very well, Walker's draw with Sharkey has a shout to be one of the best in history.

I'm not sure what result you could really compare it to in modern times, but for instance, I'd say it's in a different class to Roy Jones' win over John Ruiz in 2003. Similar weight difference in that one (thought smaller ones in terms of height and reach), but Ruiz's 226 lb on that night belies his frame which started life as a small Cruiserweight, and Jones, a naturally much bigger man than Walker in any case, would probably have never been in a fit state to fight at Middleweight (as he did up until 1994) without the advantage of day-before weigh ins, something Walker didn't have. Jones beat a significantly bigger man, nonetheless, while Walker only drew against one in this case (although he had impressively savaged an even bigger, but less skilled man than Sharkey in the shape of Bearcat Wright only months before), but Ruiz can't be put in the same bracket of fighter as Sharkey, much less ever be considered the possible number one Heavyweight in the world at any given time like Sharkey was.

So now let's look at the other side of the coin. Sharkey's recent form had been pretty solid, but injuries and behind-the-scenes issues (perhaps related to the Mob, which we'll get to later) had kept him out of the ring for more than a full year before he faced Walker. Could he possibly have been at his best given that lay off, which is a long time even by today's standards, never mind the early thirties where fighters tended to keep a much more frenetic schedule?

If you were a cynic, you could cast a bit of a harsh eye over some of Sharkey's wins in or around that time, too. Tommy Loughran, one of the greats in a weight class (Light-Heavy) which was definitely above Walker's best weight, had been taken apart by Sharkey not long before, which in essence shows how well the smaller Walker did to contain Sharkey and hold him to a draw. However, unlike Walker, Loughran hadn't consistently tested the waters to get acclimatised to facing the bigger fellas in the Heavyweight division - his first bout against Sharkey, which was his first Heavyweight fight of significance, came right after the final defence of his 175 lb title (a previous defence had included a points win over Walker, too). Loughran's early form as a Heavyweight was pretty patchy but started to incease and become more consistent the longer he spent there. This doesn't completely write off an impressive win for Sharkey over Loughran, but suggests that he perhaps caught him at the right time, before he got a foothold in the division, and also that he may not have looked so impressive against him had he met him at a later date.

Subsequently, Sharkey would clearly outbox and outfox the giant Italian Carnera, but as everyone in boxing knows, just how good Carnera really was is wide open to speculation, albeit we know he could at least punch a little to go along with his 6’6”, nineteen stone frame. On top of that, we know that Sharkey’s points win to take the title from Schmeling which followed was, and remains, a decision shrouded in uncertainty and controversy, with Josef Yussel’s “We wuz robbed!” exclamation of despair after the verdict having passed in to boxing folklore. Were the powers that be, in this case, trying to level the scores after Schmeling had been on the fortunate end of a dubious ruling first time out?

On top of all that, it can’t be ignored that some of Sharkey’s career results, such as the Schmeling ones, had a bit of an unpleasant whiff about them now and then. After those two bouts, he famously was knocked out after what appeared to be an uninterested effort in a title defence against Carnera. The fact that he could lose in this kind of fashion against a man he’d comprehensively outclassed first time out roused suspicion in any case, as did the ‘knockout’ punch itself; some, such as the New York Times, called Carnera’s uppercut “a ferocious shot”, whereas other spectators felt it missed by as much as a foot, and that Sharkey had taken a dive against the Italian, who was being manoeuvred by the likes of Owney ‘Killer’ Madden.

For his part, Sharkey denied anything being below board for the Carnera championship fight, but he did dryly say of it in later years, “Even my wife has her doubts.”

There seems to be something about Sharkey and his fights which attracted the undesirable elements, regardless of whether he wanted to or not. Another Heavyweight of the era, Larry Gaines, stated too that he had been approached to throw a fight against Sharkey. With anything other than a Sharkey win being pretty long odds, was Walker simply being given a free run at a protected / uninterested Sharkey without knowing it? The bookies’ line for Walker’s subsequent Heavyweight title bid against Schmeling, which he got largely on the back of his draw with Sharkey, seemed to indicate so; by rights, he shouldn’t have been a huge underdog, but the most generous price I’ve seen listed for him beforehand was 11/2. In the end, he was in way over his head against Schemling, eventually being stopped in eight rounds, which adds fuel to the fire which says his performance and result against Sharkey flattered to deceive.

A lot of factors to consider. On paper a wonderful result, and no matter what the circumstances, a great fighter being able to give away 29 lb to a world class Heavyweight (as I said, one who may have been the world’s best for a brief time) has to be considered impressive in some way. But was it the finest achievement of Walker’s career, and where would you rank it amongst the best single results (note I’m talking results here, not necessarily performances) in boxing history? Do the little odds and ends mentioned above devalue it from its originally lofty position, or is it a feat that not too many other guys Walker’s size could have accomplished?

The floor belongs to anyone sad enough to have read this through to the end. Off you go. Ta everyone.

The floor belongs to anyone sad enough to have read this through to the end. Off you go. Ta everyone.

Given that the Golovkin thread involves reading through endless PPV numbers, this was light relief, Chris.

As always Chris good, but bloody long reading! Like you I have read differing reports as to who deserved the nod. Think in fights such as this where someone starts an overwhelming favourite and the outsider performance outstrips expectations there is something of a tendency to over score for the underdog. A modern equivalent would be the recent Floyd vs Maidana fight, and I am in no doubt something of that applies here. However what seems in no doubt is the fight was close enough to have gone either way. Personally I think you have to put that down as a remarkable achievement and result for Walker. Is very difficult because there is no doubt there were some shady old characters and goings on back then with the likes of Madden and the career of Carnera (much as it pains me to admit it). However that does not mean every fight around that era was suspect and in this instance I am perhaps persuaded to believe things are on the level. Think if the fix was in Walker would have got the nod as this would move Sharkey back down the heavyweight pecking order and remove a potential banana skin from Carnera’s path.

If we do make this leap of faith and accept the fight was on the level I suspect you have to rank it pretty highly on the list of great results, Sharkey was a good heavyweight, by no means a top ten guy but arguably the most talented of the post Tunney, pre Louis era and as you have rightly said Walker was a middle at absolute best. God only knows where it ranks on the all time list, but good reading and an interesting fight to consider.

Largely agree with what you've said there, Rowley. I tend to rank Walker's draw against Sharkey pretty highly in terms of all-time great results, but as the article says I've been accused of overrating Walker in general in the past, so with all the other possible factors to consider I was wondering if people might think I'm doing the same again.

Hard to say what other great results it belongs higher / lower than. Duran-Leonard usually gets held up as maybe the greatest individual win in history, but obviously a very different context to Walker-Sharkey. Then you've got Barbados Joe Walcott giving away 36 lb to Joe Choynski and flattening him, only a year before he Choynski sparked Johnson, as well as the smaller McGovern savaging the Lightweight king Erne who'd been in great form beforehand, Greb giving away the best part of a stone to an undefeated Tunney and soaking him in his own blood in their first bout and Turpin beating a pretty much peak Robinson without the same weight advantages that La Motta had enjoyed eight years beforehand. No doubt there's a few others I've forgotten as well.

Guess if you were drawing up a top ten you'd need to throw Frazier-Ali I in there, and also perhaps Ali's win in Zaire. And I guess as best 'result' is the name of the game here, Leonard-Hagler as well (don't get too mardy, Atila / Haz).

Think in terms of sheer jaw dropping implausibility you have to go with Walcott over Choynski probably Chris. As you well know Choynski was pretty decent and normally pretty durable, so the result is nothing short of remarkable. Sam Langford has a couple of pretty ridiculous results as well. Beating Gans and drawing with Walcott when little more than a novice is one heck of an acheivement.

Yep, Langford definitely has a couple of candidates on his record too as you say. Him and Armstrong, the little guys who just seemed to make weight irrelevant, have so many really impressive results that I guess you just end up taking them for granted sometimes without meaning to.

For really good results which had that little bit of extra wow factor, though, what about McLarnin taking Young Corbett III out inside a single round to win the Welterweight title?

Fighters can get caught cold sometimes, but that wasn't really something you'd expect from someone with Corbett's style. Have you seen Corbett's win over Fields to lift the title? Only full fight of Corbett's which is available as far as I know, but if that's anything to go by he was very much like Pacquiao (he was a lefty, as you know) and his straight left never seemed to miss. Great hand speed as well, although Az told me once that no fighter ever had fast hands before the sixties.....

McLarnin going in there against that kind of buzzsaw fighter and taking him out in such unexpected style must be somewhere near the upper echelons, even if it's not quite as good as some of the other fights we've mentioned.

My only reservation with ranking Walker quite as highly as you Chris is he did tend to draw the colour line a little more than a lot of fighters. Appreciate I have argued in the past we should not perhaps hold this against fighters from way back when but by the time Walker was fighting a refusal to fight black challengers was increasingly unusual, certainly his great rival Greb was willing to fight the likes of Norfolk, but Walker was less willing to extend such a courtesy to McVey.

Hmmm. Fighting to a draw as a 3-1 outsider is impressive enough (especially after receiving divorce papers on the morning of the fight), however, Walker is reported to have gotten the worst of it (he was cut and bloodied throughout).

Spotting that much weight (before the age of PEDS etc.) is a fine achievement but how good was Sharkey?

I wouldn't rank it alongside the greatest performances all-time, as gutsy as Walker was.

Probably wasn't the only time Walker received that kind of news on the morning of a fight. That's what happens when you get married seven times.

No doubt that Sharkey was a very good fighter on his day. It was a softened version of Dempsey he faced but if he hadn't have got careless like he did then he might ended up have doing the same kind of job on him as the ones Tunney gets a lot of credit for. He was prone to blowing hot and cold but, again, if you look at when Walker got the draw against him, he was smack bang in the middle of his most consistent run of form.

There are definitely those who thought a draw was kind to Walker, but as the article and Rowley have said, if you dig you can find quite a few who felt that Walker was worth at least that and maybe even a shade more. The footage of the fight is incolcusive but most evidence seems to suggest that Sharkey was anything but flat out robbed.

Always thought Walker was very highly regarded by boxing historians- one of the greatest pound for pound fighters of the lot, one of the greatest middleweights of all time etc. You really do have to be wary at all times about what you read on the internet, read the other day someone had singled out Walker as overrated, it's staggering the misinformation people like to put about. I think people just like to appear clever sometimes and say things even if they don't actually believe them.


Don't know the answer to the question put in the op, but in the following piece, it's clear Walker believed he'd beaten Sharkey:


http://www.boxing.com/mickey_walker_the_exception_proves_the_rule.html