Aviva Premiership Round Three

by **Ozzy3213** Tue 16 Sep 2014, 8:07 am

First topic message reminder :

So round two carried on pretty much were round one left of, with a couple of on-sided high scorers, and the rest of the games hard fought encounters with plenty for both partisan and neutral fans to enjoy. On Friday night a ruthless Saracens outfit clinically put Harlequins away, leaving Conor O'Shea and co with much to do before this weeks fixtures rolls around. First up on Saturday was the throwaround down at The Rec, where Bath ran in seven tries, and despite losing by over 20 points Welsh managed four of their own to pick up a try bonus point. Gloucester showed the good and the bad of what they've got, all within 80 minutes. Being well behind to a Danny Cipriani inspired Sale at half time they stormed back in the second half to earn themselves the win, with Steve Diamonds men doing enough to stay within seven points and score four tries to pick up two point son their travels. Saturdays final game was even further down in the West country, where Exeter fought hard but ultimately fell short against a Tigers outfit, who whilst not yet quite at their best picked up their second win in the opening two rounds. Sunday saw the biggest surprise of the round, where Wasps held free scoring Saints tryless in the first half before pouncing to score two tries in a minute themselves to pick up what could be a crucial win for them. In the weekends final fixture London Irish travelled to Kingston Park and returned south with a win and four point from a hard fought encounter with Newcastle Falcons.

Prediction wise, I got 4 out of 6 again this week, although it wasn't my boys who let me down this time, it was the jokers from the The Stoop and the Sinners, although I would be amazed if many people had tipped Wasps to win that one. Anyway, here's the table after round two;-

*Pos*	*Team*	P	W	D	L	F	A	PD	TF	TA	*TBP*	*LBP*	*PTS*
1.	Saracens	2	2	0	0	73	28	+45	7	3	1	0	9
2.	Bath Rugby	2	2	0	0	82	46	+36	9	6	1	0	9
3.	Leicester Tigers	2	2	0	0	60	37	+23	6	4	1	0	9
4.	Exeter Chiefs	2	1	0	1	72	24	+48	9	2	1	1	6
5.	Northampton Saints	2	1	0	1	69	26	+43	9	2	1	1	6
6.	Wasps	2	1	0	1	48	50	-2	5	5	0	1	5
7.	London Irish	2	1	0	1	35	38	-3	2	5	0	1	5
8.	Harlequins	2	1	0	1	20	54	-34	2	3	0	0	4
9.	Gloucester	2	1	0	1	40	80	-40	3	12	0	0	4
10.	Sale Sharks	2	0	0	2	47	63	-16	6	5	1	1	2
11.	Newcastle Falcons	2	0	0	2	35	56	-21	5	6	0	1	1
12.	London Welsh	2	0	0	2	26	105	-79	4	14	1	0	1

So on to this weeks fixtures, and here they are:

Friday 19th September 2014 19:45 Gloucester vs. Exeter Chiefs

An interesting and tough to call game first up this weekend. Gloucester will be buoyed by their win over Sale and at home again this week will want to put in a performance that matches their second half one last week. The Chiefs, although beaten, were well in the game against Tigers and I think will go to Kingsholm confident of getting a result. Both teams are likely to finish in that middle of the table group from around 6th to 10th, so points earned from this sort of game will be key to deciding the finishing order. Kingsholm is always a tough place to go though and I can see Gloucester squeaking home again in this one, with the Chiefs picking up another losing bonus point.

Saturday 20th September 2014 14:00 Sale Sharks vs. London Welsh

The last time Welsh were in the Premiership, they lost their first two games and went to Sale Sharks in round three and promptly picked up their first win of the campaign. Both of these sides are winless so far this season, and will be desperate to get of the mark in this fixture. Welsh will need to tighten up in defence considerably if they are to get anything, having conceded 14 tries and over 100 points already. Sale showed against Gloucester that they have not become a bad side overnight, and if Danny Cipriani performs as he did last week they will have too much for Welsh this time around. I've got this down as five points for Sale and Welsh heading home with nothing.

Saturday 20th September 2014 15:00 Harlequins vs. Wasps

Quins would say they have genuine ambitions to finish in the top 4 this season, and having played two of last seasons top 4 so far this term and not been outclassed, Wasps have to be aiming to break into that group as well. If they're going to, this is precisely the sort of game they need to win, and potentially stop their rivals from picking up any points against them. Quins will have a point to prove though, and will be wounded by what happened on Friday night. Their attacking game needs to click, as Wasps will score points against them and they will need to ensure that they aren't leaving three pointers out there as they have been. This I think will be a real ding dong affair with the lead changing hands a couple of times, but I'm backing Quins to bounce back and pinch it, with Wasps picking up a losing bonus point.

Saturday 20th September 2014 15:00 London Irish vs. Saracens

On paper this is a comfortable away win. Saracens haven't hit top gear yet, despite what the scoreline against Quins may suggest, and are two from two. Irish won ugly on Sunday, and will take some confidence from getting off the mark with that win. To stand any chance in this one Irish will need to counter the driving maul better than they did on Sunday, and will need the scrum to go well as it has done in their two games so far. Irish have won 2 of the last 3 fixtures between the sides, so will take confidence from that. As you can probably tell I am searching for crumbs of comfort here, but the reality is that the head says Saracens comfortably, the heart says we'll dig one out again and sneak the win.

Saturday 20th September 2014 15:15 Bath Rugby vs. Leicester Tigers

Two of the three teams with 100% records go head to head in Saturdays televised fixture. Both have genuine title ambitions, and both will want to lay down a marker here in their first big test of the season. Bath will need to be tighter defensively than they were against Welsh, although it's hard to imagine that they won't be as it looked like they just switched off with the game already won. Tigers haven't hit top gear yet, and will be looking to go up a notch in this one, but are missing a few key guys in the pack, which is where the strength of this Bath team is. This will be a right old battle, and I'm tipping Bath top hold their nerve at home and come through for the win. Losing bonus point for the Tigers.

Sunday 21st September 2014 14:00 Newcastle Falcons vs. Northampton Saints

As with last week the round winds up at Kingston Park. Falcons could have done with an easier game here, but instead face a wounded Northampton saints who you suspect will have a point to prove this weekend. It's one of those games though, where Newcastle have nothing to lose, as there is no weight of expectation on them to get anything here and they could well throw the shackles of and spring a surprise. They will need to get their team selection right though, and tactics, and I still have a question mark over Dean Richards and whether his tactics and selection are what is holding them back. I want to be brave and go with the upset here, but I also want to be right, so am going with the odds and predicting a try bonus point win for Saints.

Ozzy's predicited table after round three:

Saracens 14, Bath Rugby 13, Northampton Saints 11, Leicester Tigers 10, Harlequins 8, Gloucester 8, Exeter Chiefs 7, Sale Sharks 7, Wasps 6, London Irish 5, Newcastle Falcons 1, London Welsh 1.

by HongKongCherry Sat 20 Sep 2014, 9:59 pm

Welly wrote:When the last time the AP has had this many teams on 0 at the end of the game. Glous, Welsh, Quins, tigers in 2 rounds.

Don't lump us in with you!! Wink

It certainly felt like a nil though

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 20 Sep 2014, 10:03 pm

It was the first time I'd really seen Lewington at Falcons Nick and Cato kept him quiet, hard to judge as Cato is a tidy defender these days (North tomorrow Sad

)

It's Short who's a poor AP winger imo.

by stnick88 Sat 20 Sep 2014, 11:19 pm

Yeh that will be a test for him! Im not convinced by short to be honest. But lewington is a good prospect.

by **Ozzy3213** Sun 21 Sep 2014, 8:20 am

Can't wait for our game to be up on the Prem website so I can watch it. From reading comments on The Craic from both Irish and Saracens fans (who have been very magnanimous on there) it sounds like it was a cracker, as you might expect from a game with 7 tries, one of which was in the last minute to win it.

The overwhelming consensus was that we got our tactics spot on to counter the Saracens defensive line speed and played with real belief, and that the game really could have gone either way. Whilst I don't want to get too excited celebrating a loss, that's a much better position for us to be in than we have been over the past couple of seasons.

My one concern is that we are at Welford Road next week, and after the hiding the Tigers got off of Bath, they will have to respond. We will have to play as well as it appears we did yesterday if we are to get anything from the game.

by Bathite Sun 21 Sep 2014, 9:50 am

Jimpy wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Croft, Parling and Kitch will put real pressure on Webber's often wobbly throwing. From a Tiger perspective I want him to struggle, from an England one I would like him to pass the test.

The predictions are for a close match, but i'd be dissappointed if Tigers didn't get the five points.

Anyone seen Jimpy?

by beshocked Sun 21 Sep 2014, 11:19 am

Ozzy I didn't see the game but sounds like London Irish had real belief. I was more confident before the Quins game than this one simply because London Irish have the belief and Quins don't.

Sounds like Sarries got lucky again.

Defence has been shocking for 2 rounds. Gustard would be pulling his hair out if he had any.

by Welly Sun 21 Sep 2014, 11:54 am

I will say I was sort of right.....

by doctor_grey Sun 21 Sep 2014, 12:25 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Can't wait for our game to be up on the Prem website so I can watch it. From reading comments on The Craic from both Irish and Saracens fans (who have been very magnanimous on there) it sounds like it was a cracker, as you might expect from a game with 7 tries, one of which was in the last minute to win it.

The overwhelming consensus was that we got our tactics spot on to counter the Saracens defensive line speed and played with real belief, and that the game really could have gone either way. Whilst I don't want to get too excited celebrating a loss, that's a much better position for us to be in than we have been over the past couple of seasons.

My one concern is that we are at Welford Road next week, and after the hiding the Tigers got off of Bath, they will have to respond. We will have to play as well as it appears we did yesterday if we are to get anything from the game.

Really have to wonder about Tigers after yesterday. Didn't see the match, but for them to get smoked by anyone, anywhere, is a shock. They have always been the one team which simply finds a way to soldier on through injuries. Outside of the mid-field, that was a decent line-up. On the other hand it is still early and maybe it is the type of 'down' match that infects every team from time to time.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 21 Sep 2014, 1:11 pm

Tigers always start slowly. This was a shocker of a result but they'll be there or there abouts by the end of the season.

by Exiledinborders Sun 21 Sep 2014, 1:51 pm

George Ford was excellent. From Leicester's point of view it is a pity Cockerill was unwilling to give him more game time and forced him to leave in order to develop his game. I thought at the time it was short termist and so it has proved.

Now Flood has jumped ship and Tigers have spent a lot of money on Burns. A good player but not in Ford's class and with a doubtful attitude as shown last season.

by Exiledinborders Sun 21 Sep 2014, 1:55 pm

Surely Banahan's days are numbered at Bath. He looked like a player from a different era. The modern players combine his size with rugby playing ability.

To look poor when your team is playing that well is a real achievement.

by HammerofThunor Sun 21 Sep 2014, 2:04 pm

Nice try Hooley

by formerly known as Sam Sun 21 Sep 2014, 2:24 pm

EIB Ford was given game time. His place kicking was dodgy whilst Flood was reliable. The plan was for him to succeed Flood. He wanted to go to Bath where his dad was and where there was little in the way of competition. Fair does. We got Owen Williams in instead and he's another great prospect. To be fair to Burns he's playing well and the issues yesterday weren't his fault. He's also likely to be available more often than Ford who will be an international for many years.

Also the disallowed try and red card were awful decisions. Real kick in the teeth at the end of the game.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 21 Sep 2014, 2:28 pm

Worst I've seen Falcons play since Irish away (1st half) last season. This is truly dreadful, something has to change at the top

by HammerofThunor Sun 21 Sep 2014, 2:39 pm

Tuilagi is really not having a good game.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 21 Sep 2014, 2:47 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:EIB Ford was given game time. His place kicking was dodgy whilst Flood was reliable.

Ford never got a decent run of games in his last season with Leicester. His first season with Bath showed that's exactly what he needed. Cockerill wanted Ford to be indisputably better than Flood before handing him a start alongside Ben Youngs in a key match, and he wasn't. That might have been the right judgement on a match-to-match basis but it was wholly wrong from a development point of view. Leicester might have been worried about about unsettling Flood if they played Ford ahead of him too much but, as it turned out, they misjudged his ambitions too.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 21 Sep 2014, 3:00 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:EIB Ford was given game time. His place kicking was dodgy whilst Flood was reliable.
Ford never got a decent run of games in his last season with Leicester. His first season with Bath showed that's exactly what he needed. Cockerill wanted Ford to be indisputably better than Flood before handing him a start alongside Ben Youngs in a key match, and he wasn't. That might have been the right judgement on a match-to-match basis but it was wholly wrong from a development point of view. Leicester might have been worried about about unsettling Flood if they played Ford ahead of him too much but, as it turned out, they misjudged his ambitions too.

Didn't Ford play something like 18 games in his last season at Tigers?

by **Ozzy3213** Sun 21 Sep 2014, 3:22 pm

beshocked wrote:Ozzy I didn't see the game but sounds like London Irish had real belief. I was more confident before the Quins game than this one simply because London Irish have the belief and Quins don't.

Sounds like Sarries got lucky again.

Defence has been shocking for 2 rounds. Gustard would be pulling his hair out if he had any.

I haven't watched the game yet, but not sure you got lucky. Barritt made a brave call to go to the corner and try to win the game and it paid off. Given that anyone who watched our game at Newcastle would have seen that we didn't defend the maul well it was a canny decision rather than luck.

by Bathite Sun 21 Sep 2014, 4:17 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:Surely Banahan's days are numbered at Bath. He looked like a player from a different era. The modern players combine his size with rugby playing ability.

To look poor when your team is playing that well is a real achievement.

Agreed! 4th choice winger for us though, just Watson out injured and Agulla with Argentina

by **LondonTiger** Sun 21 Sep 2014, 4:18 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:EIB Ford was given game time. His place kicking was dodgy whilst Flood was reliable.
Ford never got a decent run of games in his last season with Leicester. His first season with Bath showed that's exactly what he needed. Cockerill wanted Ford to be indisputably better than Flood before handing him a start alongside Ben Youngs in a key match, and he wasn't. That might have been the right judgement on a match-to-match basis but it was wholly wrong from a development point of view. Leicester might have been worried about about unsettling Flood if they played Ford ahead of him too much but, as it turned out, they misjudged his ambitions too.

Didn't Ford play something like 18 games in his last season at Tigers?

14 starts in his last season I believe. His dad announced he was leaving just as he had made 6 starts in a row, including HEC matches.

I think the unease set in because having finished the 11/12 season so well he got little game time at the start of the 12/13 season. Off course during the summer toby flood had taken the England 10 shirt back from Farrell while in South Africa. Cockerill was damned whatever he did. Pick England's incumbent 10, or the tyro who decided to leave.

Ford was getting plenty of matches in his last two seasons and was making progress. He had the choice between staying and fighting for his shirt or moving and taking the guaranteed place. He chose the easier option. Whether it was right we will know in a couple of years. He is obviously ambitious (and hugely talented), but is he scared of a fight?

by Welly Sun 21 Sep 2014, 4:23 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:EIB Ford was given game time. His place kicking was dodgy whilst Flood was reliable.
Ford never got a decent run of games in his last season with Leicester. His first season with Bath showed that's exactly what he needed. Cockerill wanted Ford to be indisputably better than Flood before handing him a start alongside Ben Youngs in a key match, and he wasn't. That might have been the right judgement on a match-to-match basis but it was wholly wrong from a development point of view. Leicester might have been worried about about unsettling Flood if they played Ford ahead of him too much but, as it turned out, they misjudged his ambitions too.

Cleary didn't do much research before typing.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 21 Sep 2014, 4:41 pm

Welly wrote:Cleary didn't do much research before typing.

I didn't have to do any research because I've followed Ford's career as it unfolded. I'm not a Bath or Leicester supporter so I don't have any axe to grind on that score. If it was obvious to me at the time that Ford was not getting the opportunities he craved, then it ought to have been obvious to Cockerill. It certainly didn't escape Austin Healey, who pointed out months before Ford was on his way out that the player would leave if he didn't see his career progressing at Tigers.

by Sgt_Pooly Sun 21 Sep 2014, 5:24 pm

Ford had a good run at Tigers before deciding to leave. They stuck with him despite him having some real shockers I seem to recall.

by Welly Sun 21 Sep 2014, 6:06 pm

The regular season game against Sarries at home was so annoying he played brilliantly in the 1st half built a nice lead then had a shocker in the 2nd half and sarries sneaked the win.

by kingelderfield Sun 21 Sep 2014, 9:21 pm

kingelderfield wrote:Really looking forward to Ford versus Burns - plus will be interesting to see Farrell's game as he lines up in the starting 15 for the first time this season.

Wade versus Yarde is also one to watch out for - May had a good game last night....in his own unique way.

Other asides; hoping Tuilagi shows up a bit more today, I was really impressed with Barrington and Fraser first time out for Sarries, Charlie is still drinking the alixir and one for the diary as messers Williams and Burgess face off for probably their last league encounter, in next weekends nrl semi final eliminator, before both switching codes.

So basically a part from Ford, every unionist I called out had either an average or poor day at the office.

by Hound of Harrow Sun 21 Sep 2014, 9:34 pm

It will be interesting to see who is rested over the next two weekends. The Euro comps start afterwards.

The EPS agreement means that quite a few England internationals will probably sit out most of the next two rounds.

That is if their club has ambitions to have a good Euro campaign.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 22 Sep 2014, 1:35 am

Dallaglio noted on BT that North's bonus point score for Saints was the 100th try so far. That's an average of 5.5 tries a game.

by Hound of Harrow Mon 22 Sep 2014, 8:59 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Dallaglio noted on BT that North's bonus point score for Saints was the 100th try so far. That's an average of 5.5 tries a game.

It has been pretty entertaining so far, though certain fans of Pro12 teams on here would never admit it. And in the AP the defending is a lot better than in the Pro12, where some teams think it's an optional extra.

Whistle

I've lost count of how many players have scored try hat tricks so far.

by beshocked Mon 22 Sep 2014, 9:39 am

Ozzy3213 wrote:
beshocked wrote:Ozzy I didn't see the game but sounds like London Irish had real belief. I was more confident before the Quins game than this one simply because London Irish have the belief and Quins don't.

Sounds like Sarries got lucky again.

Defence has been shocking for 2 rounds. Gustard would be pulling his hair out if he had any.

I haven't watched the game yet, but not sure you got lucky. Barritt made a brave call to go to the corner and try to win the game and it paid off. Given that anyone who watched our game at Newcastle would have seen that we didn't defend the maul well it was a canny decision rather than luck.

Watched the highlights on ITV4 - intelligent kicking from LI for your tries. Showing how to play Saracens. You must be wondering why you can't play as well as against other teams.

Saracens are beginning to become Leicester like in terms of snatching wins at the death!

Hound of Harrow I agree it's been an interesting AP start so far. I think it's because there's less fear of the top teams. Still think Quins are scared of Sarries but bar that oddity there is a belief that anyone can defeat anyone (except for LW).

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 22 Sep 2014, 9:46 am

I guess we'll see next week if this was a one of good performance against a side that we seem to enjoy playing, or whether it is a step on the road to genuine improvement. I hope that it's the latter, and I have seen other signs that this may be the case. Huge game for us next week though now, we have to back up what we've done so far.

by beshocked Mon 22 Sep 2014, 10:03 am

Ozzy we'll see but unfortunately I think it will be the former. You raise your game against Saracens in a way you don't against anyone else.

Certain teams raise their game for certain matches - recently with Sarries it's been Quins and Tigers, for you it's vs Sarries. Bath vs Tigers for example.

Doesn't help who you are playing in the next two games!

by stnick88 Mon 22 Sep 2014, 10:41 am

I think it does in a way beshocked. Forces us to raise our game. I wouldnt be surprised if we nicked a win from either tigers or saints. Its away games like gloucester, exeter, sale where we always seem to under perform.

by **Ozzy3213** Mon 22 Sep 2014, 11:49 am

Last season we raised our game against all of the top 4, beating Quins at home and performing well in both games against Tigers and Saints. At home vs. Tigers we lost as we knocked on on the tryline in the final minute thereby not scoring the try that would have won us the game, and away at Saints we were a forward pass away from turning them over.

We are a better side this year, so if we can raise our game again, there is no reason why we can't be more accurate and win those games.

by BATH_BTGOG Mon 22 Sep 2014, 1:08 pm

With regard to the Bath win I'd like to point out one performance that has dipped under the radar a little bit, Jonathan Josephs performance was superb, his eye for a gap was a joy to watch for us Bath fans.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 22 Sep 2014, 1:22 pm

I suspect there were more gaps available than he will find for the rest of the year

by stnick88 Mon 22 Sep 2014, 1:49 pm

Thats what he was like at irish when he break through. But he has struggled to replicate that for a couple of years. Seems like he is back to top form now. Good for england.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 22 Sep 2014, 2:00 pm

How long is he injured for?

by Geordie Mon 22 Sep 2014, 3:00 pm

Elliott Daly is also looking interesting at 13 - Lots of centres in form.

by BATH_BTGOG Mon 22 Sep 2014, 3:05 pm

Nice problem for SL to have

by SirBurger Mon 22 Sep 2014, 3:13 pm

Joseph is looking awesome. Glad he has sorted himself out.

by Welly Mon 22 Sep 2014, 3:35 pm

seems Barnes cost us the game.

That one disallowed try could have swung the game our way and who knows maybe the score would have been a 5 point TBP win for Tigers and LBP for Bath.

Me thinks Craig paid him off.

God the referees are so bad in this league.

by HongKongCherry Mon 22 Sep 2014, 3:59 pm

I do think Bruce Craig has something over someone. For every televised game after every point we see a shot of him, yet how often do we see the owners of any other club? Very rarely we see Nigel Wray, but every other club owner doesn't feature. So what is this fascination with Craig?

by Geordie Mon 22 Sep 2014, 4:11 pm

God the referees are so bad in this league.

On a serious note i actually do think the standard of refereeing this season has been appalling in general.

by Heaf Mon 22 Sep 2014, 7:06 pm

agreed

by Welly Mon 22 Sep 2014, 7:27 pm

Sounds like Tom youngs, Morris and Tait will be out for next weekend for tigers.

My god.

by Guest Mon 22 Sep 2014, 8:39 pm

Welly wrote: Sounds like Tom youngs, Morris and Tait will be out for next weekend for tigers.

My god.

Tom out til Christmas apparently. I'm seriously starting to think the club are under some kind of magic curse, no doubt originating from Jim Voldemort and his evil saints. Calum Clark must have been trying to rip off Rob's arm to use in a potion of some sort. Tigs have the chosen boy to look after them all but he's always bloody injured.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 22 Sep 2014, 10:29 pm

I thought complaining about injuries wasn't the done thing? Whistle

by Bathman_in_London Tue 23 Sep 2014, 9:54 am

I guess it saves complaining about international call ups.

by beshocked Tue 23 Sep 2014, 9:55 am

HongKongCherry wrote:I do think Bruce Craig has something over someone. For every televised game after every point we see a shot of him, yet how often do we see the owners of any other club? Very rarely we see Nigel Wray, but every other club owner doesn't feature. So what is this fascination with Craig?

The fascination with Craig is his fake tan. His face positively glows when the camera is fixed on him. Or perhaps just the cameramen and women have a crush on him. thumbsup

Seriously? I don't know. Perhaps cameramen and women just prefer Bath? I remember seeing Mary Berry being highlighted in the crowd as a Bath fan - I think in a game last year?

As for Nigel Wray he goes to basically every game. He generally sits in the same place. It wouldn't be hard for the camera to be focussed on him.

I don't know what the other owners look like.

by Bathite Tue 23 Sep 2014, 10:50 am

The ground is so small and the boxes are so close to the pitch, it makes them really visible. Bruce is quite active in that box, which draws even more attention to him, which he clearly quite enjoys, based on how prominent he is in the press, with his role in Prem rugby and such like. We don't really have a proper bench area, with VIP seats behind them, like you get in proper stadiums, so I guess they pan to him instead.

Not sure i've noticed the fake tan thing, but bearing in mind he lives in France, it proably isn't something he borrowed from Gav, more likely to be legitimate.

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