Scottish second row combo

Kellock and Gray to start and then bring Hines on for Kellock off the bench in the 2nd half.

This is just down to how impressed I was in the 6 Nations as to how Kellock and Gray really complimented each other. Hines would be a superb impact sub as well to call on in the last 20-25mins too when Kellock starts to tire.

Tough choice though as I really rate Hamilton too!

Kellock and Gray with Hines on the blind side/bench if Brown and Beattie are fit. Didn't seem to be broke in the 6n so why fiddle?

This is a tough call, In truth all across the forwards we hve strength and depth, and no matter what happens some very good players will be left behing.

For me the Killer B's with Gray and Kellock would have just the right balance. Having Hines as an impact sub that can cover 6 or the second row.

I may however go with Hines and Hamilton in the 2nd row against Los Pumas for the added strength in the 2nd row that may be required.

Hines and Grey seem to be a good mixture to me.

Stag, tend to agree - Hines and Hamilton too similar, and the former offers just that little more around the park, and equally Gray and Kellock similar in many ways, both lacking in that wee bit of grunt you'd be looking for in the scrum but both equally adept in the lineout - perhaps its a horses for courses thing, and we'll see the pairing selected depending on the oppo? Anyhew, Robbo's favoured pairing does appear to be Kellock (as captain) and Gray, so that may be it

For me definitely Gray and Hines because those two will ofer just the right combination of strenght and athletisim, which as south africa have shown is the way to go with matfield being athletic and botha being the enforcer.

I'd look to partner Hines/Gray, never been a huge fan of Kellock.

Do you think your scrum suffered with the partnership of Gray/Kellock in the 6N?

I know Murray has been getting a hammering but he's played well for Falcons and I got the impresion Gray doesn't give much support behind the TH in the scrum and this has resulted in your normally very impressive scrum being took apart time after time lately.

Surely Hines has to play given his recent performances, Gray was excellent in the 6N and is a real find so cant be excluded, Kellock is the captain....its a difficult one

What the bet they end up wasting Hines in the backrow? (again)

wales606 wrote:Surely Hines has to play given his recent performances, Gray was excellent in the 6N and is a real find so cant be excluded, Kellock is the captain....its a difficult one

What the bet they end up wasting Hines in the backrow? (again)

Well fingers crossed Barclay, Beattie and Brown can rediscover their form again; and if Cusiter gets fit he would be my choice to be captain and I'm sure Andy Robinson's too.

Hines and Gray for me with big Jim Hamilton on the bench.

An in form Killer B's in the back row and Scotland will have the back 5 in the pack to compete with anyone in that area.

MR. scotland27 wrote:

wales606 wrote:Surely Hines has to play given his recent performances, Gray was excellent in the 6N and is a real find so cant be excluded, Kellock is the captain....its a difficult one

What the bet they end up wasting Hines in the backrow? (again)

Well fingers crossed Barclay, Beattie and Brown can rediscover their form again; and if Cusiter gets fit he would be my choice to be captain and I'm sure Andy Robinson's too.

Exactly common sense!! Thats a good selection:

Hines in the back row doesn't work for me. He's an average player in that position because what makes him stand out as a second row, his handling skills, are really (or really should be) a given for a 6. But he has weaknesses as a 6 that don't exist as a lock - pace and breakdown skills.

I'd start with Hines and Gray personally, and the warm-ups should be able to give us a clue as to whether that pairing works from a set-piece perspective. For me they are the best two players, the only real question for me is whether they'll make the best combination. I've noticed Brown doing a lot more line-out work at Sarries, so hopefully we won't miss Kellock's lineout work so much, not that we have a pedigree line-out option at 6.

Hamilton and Kellock can deal with the tricky assignment that is Georgia.

Kellock and Grey; there's your second row partnership for now, and for years to come.

Hines on the bench to come on at about 50 minutes.

I agree with Notch, Kellock and Gray are the future and bring big Wagga on in the last quarter to either rough up the opposition or steer the game home.

Kellock is indispensable to Scotland btw. His work in the lineout is absolutely sterling. Often not picked up on, but he can be brilliant there. Sometimes Scotland need more physicality and Hines or Hamilton can provide that. It is going to be an especially tough couple of battles versus Argentina and England.

So maybe Hines has a shot, but as Grey matures he'll bring plenty physiclaity and tougness to the table.

Notch, its all about trade-offs, right, unless you can find the nugget (POC in his prime, or Matfield) that does everything? So just looking at the different aspects of a lock's game (lineout, scrummaging, defense, rucking/mauling, carries, offloads, restarts), here's how I would rank the 4 of them:
* lineout - K, G, Ha/Hi
* scrummaging - Ha, Hi/K, G
* defense - G, K, Ha/Hi
* rucking/mauling - Ha/Hi, G/K
* carries - G, Ha/Hi/K
* offloads - Hi, G, Ha/K
* restarts - all ok, no obvious winner or loser

May be a bit simplistic, but it'll be interesting to see if Robbo tries out various combinations in the warm-up games to see how his thinking is going.

Obviously Kellock brings leadership quality with him, altho I wouldn't underrate Hines or Hamilton to offer inspirational words when the going gets tough, and Gray did a fine job running Glasgow's lineout for the first part of the season in Kellock's absence

It's also important not to overlook Brown and the return of Beattie as line-out options. Brown jumps in the middle at Sarries, and Beattie is a very good tail jumper. I agree that Kellock is the best we have at calling the line-out, but I'd have no issue at least seeing what Gray could do in that regard.

If we can learn to live without Kellock's impressive line-out contribution, then I think Hines will give us more in other aspects (i.e. scrummaging, rucking/mauling (which we'll have alot of in our group) and offloads as per ASBO's analysis above).

I think Kellock may also be getting sold short as a leader by example on the pitch. There is a lot of talkers I'm sure but Kellock brings a lot in terms of leading by example.

In all honesty with all 4 locks playing the way they are no combination would upset me come the world cup.

Would the captaincy default to Cusiter or perhaps even Mossy if Robbo doesn't think kellock is his best option?

Good analysis lads. Personally I would have Kellock as your Captain but I can certainly see where your coming from and your point about the best balanced partnership is well made.

For me, it's Kellock + 1. And you pick the 1 you feel is most suited to the opponent and gameplan.

I think AR's policy is pretty much to hand the scrum half the captaincy if in doubt.

Sexton (who is now widely credited with being a better orator than Churchill, JFK and Luther-King combined) proved that you don't need an armband to be a leader, and with the likes of Barclay, Cusiter, Lamont and CP in the side, I'm sure someone could fill any void.

I quite like Cusiter as captain and I think Robinson does as well, but I think Kellock and Gray are the combination for the future.

I'm told Richie has a younger (and bigger) brother, so the future may well be Gray and Gray.

I'm sure at that point Kellock will end up playing 6....

Can't see Kellock at six as i think he is too slow and visible enough in the loose sometimes.

No, neither can I. I was only kidding, making reference to AR shoe-horning Hines into the side at 6 because he couldn't make up his mind about which locks to play (he should read this thread......).

It's extremely rare a lock can play in the back row or vice versa. Very few examples of players that do both equally well.

Oh right I get it scot, however, Gray probably does have the atributes necesarry ro play there if needs be.

Not in my view - too cumbersome and not dynamic enough.

I'm struggling to come up with top class players who could play back-row and lock with equal effectiveness. AJ Venter, Tim Rodber, Abdel Benazzi....

There are plenty players like Croft and White who are/were top class at 6, but not so good at lock, or like Hines, a top class lock but an average 6, but not many equally capable at both.

I think Gray is very dynamic against France he was everywhere and is a devestating ball carrier.

Lawes would be my guess at both a second row and back row, also maybe Parise who hasd to play there for stade.

I'll give you Lawes, he could be a good 6 were you wanting to play a certain way.

Parisse is just such a good number 8, there's no way he'd be as good anywhere else.

When Taylor was at Stade though those two alternated between 8 and Lock which never really suited either of them but they were both top class players.

Agreed - Taylor never was and never is a lock - too short and too light. It was a case of trying to shoe horn two specialist number 8's into the same side, and frankly they should have just started Parisse and held Taylor in reserve, or if anything, used Taylor at 6.

Neither make my short list of players who could play equally well at lock or back row.

Hines and Gray would seem to be the best combination, and I'd probably start with them. However, I watched the Ireland v Scotland 6N 2010 the other night and was reminded how Hamilton and Kellock outshone POC and DOC (the NH answer to Matfield and Botha and in Dublin too). They laid the groundwork that let the backrow run riot. Good problem to have, why don't/can't we develop same problem for 10/12.

"AJ Venter, Tim Rodber, Abdel Benazzi...."

Three quality players.....and very physical aswell.

On a sad note...did i hear that AJ Venter had a physical disability similar to that which Joost V.D Westhuizen has developed, and indeed is in a wheelchair?