Zebre vs Ulster

First topic message reminder :

Good interview with former Ballymena and Rotherham coach Andre Bester, who of course still has strong links to Ulster Rugby, talking about Zebre ahead of this weeks game;

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/rugby/zebre-doing-best-to-earn-stripes-30612847.html

Don't expect a repeat of Round 2s walkover. Zebre are a trickier team on their home patch and Ulster may have rotated in a few positions where the depth isn't quite as strong as we'd like- like at scrum-half, open side and lock.

Zebre: H Daniller; G Toniolatti, G Bisegni, K Haimona, L Sarto; E Padovani, G Palazzini; M Aguero, A Manici, D Chistolini; Q Geldenhuys (capt), G Biagi; M Bergamasco, F Cristiano, S Vunisa.
Replacements: O Fabiani, A Lovotti, L Leibson, A Ferreira, V Bernabo, A Chillon, G Garcia, L Orquera

Ulster: C Gilroy; T Bowe, D Cave, S McCloskey, M Allen; P Jackson, M Heaney; C Black, R Herring, D Fitzpatrick; N McComb, F van der Merwe; R Wilson (capt), C Ross, N Williams.
Replacements: R Best, R Murphy, W Herbst, L Stevenson, M McComish, P Marshall, I Humphreys, A Trimble.

At Stadio XXV Aprile, 4pm local time (3pm Ireland & UK). Live on BBC NI
Referee: Peter Fitzgibbon (IRFU, 59th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Mateo Liperini, Stefano Penne (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Russell Howell (WRU)
TMO: Carlo Damasco (FIR)

Roger Wilson and Mike McComish ambling slowly over to that maul that needed to pulled down quickly sums us up. Pathetic.

Embarrassing.

Awful from Ulster.
Fitzpatrick was a very silly boy and needs to learn not to lash out, we seem to have developed a discipline problem recently 3 red cards in 10 games is not good.

Overall the performance was not there either and despite some very very dodgy officiating we did not deserve to win that. The decision to make wholesale changes for this fixture looks very bad in hindsight.

I rarely complain about officiating, but Carlo De Masco is a disgrace. Having said that, we simply didn't play good enough to beat them.

Very disappointing.

Munchkin wrote:I rarely complain about officiating, but Carlo De Masco is a disgrace. Having said that, we simply didn't play good enough to beat them.

Very disappointing.

Fitzgibbon wasn't much better, telling the Zebre 9 to use it then giving a penalty to Ulster when he was ignored and then doing what a lot of refs do and not penalising their front row when they popped up at the scrum but gave it against Ulster though

Always the same with Ulster, too many changes and especially with players getting their first game of the season

A terrible Ulster performance backed up by clearly awful officiating wrote the script for this disaster. Fitz was an ass for lashing out but a red card was far too much. The gibbon can't even take it upon himself to make a decision and he proves on a weekly basis that he has no place at this level. We would have won that game with more professional officials making the decisions. That said Ulster were awful, awful enough to just sneak a win though if it hadn't been for the gibbon not recognising a valid try and De Masco being a homer. I am raging.......does it show?

What really annoys me is that the Zebre try was deemed okay because it wasn't a clear and obvious knock-on- and it looked like a pretty clear knock-on, if we're looking at the direction of the hands moving towards the ball- but it certainly wasn't clear and obvious the guy who bought the Bowe dummy run would have spotted Gilroy, in fact he didn't even seem to see Gilroy.

That is sickening even given how badly we played. The Italian TMOs strike again.

well at least Leicester aren't the only ones in the CC group doing badly.

We're not doing badly so far though, except for this game.

Munchkin wrote:

Fitzgibbon is rarely consistent, and bottles the big calls by referring them to TMO, who tend to be biased whoever they are, and letting them decide. That's not the fault of the refs. It's the fault of IRB for allowing this farce of TMO use to continue. Get rid of the TMO, but refer to the big screen when needed, with the ref alone deciding the call.

Wouldn't have worked here as Zebre have no big screens. We still have games in the Pro12 with no TMOs because there are a lack of cameras available for it, doesn't help the image of the league

Last time we had the referee making decisions based on the big screen Fitzgibbon disallowed a try for us which was somehow even more clear cut and obviously valid than todays.

marty2086 wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Fitzgibbon is rarely consistent, and bottles the big calls by referring them to TMO, who tend to be biased whoever they are, and letting them decide. That's not the fault of the refs. It's the fault of IRB for allowing this farce of TMO use to continue. Get rid of the TMO, but refer to the big screen when needed, with the ref alone deciding the call.

Wouldn't have worked here as Zebre have no big screens. We still have games in the Pro12 with no TMOs because there are a lack of cameras available for it, doesn't help the image of the league

True, Marty. I would think the IRB ensuring big screens are placed in all the necessary grounds wouldn't be that difficult though, or in the those that don't, then it's the refs call alone until big screens are installed. I agree. It doesn't reflect well on the league. It has to be a turn off for those just taking an interest in the game to witness some of these TMO calls, including the ridiculous amount of time some of them take.

Surely it would be simpler to just have a TMO who was from neither country and to be honest the dropping of any officials that have consistently poor games would help too some of the decisions this season in the league have been very poor and yet refs etc keep getting games, demote the guys and give them a chance to earn their way back is surely a better alternative to having one set of standard refs who get every game regardless of mistakes or ability

The thing is the gibbon is terrible week in, week out. Last week he and a TMO looked at two forward passes by the O's against Edinburgh and still came up with the deluded decisions. When a ref can't make decisions and turns to the TMO every five minute it leaves the game as a lottery. The gibbon today along with his TMO buddy conspired to see Ulster lose, something that badly needs looking at. Those missed points will come back to haunt us I have no doubt.

It would be better to have neutral TMO's, neil, but it's difficult enough getting neutral refs for games in the Rabo. Then there's a problem with professional referee's referring big calls to TMO's who are less likely to be trained to the same standard as they are. It's the ref that needs to make those big calls.
If it's possible that there can be enough TMO's, trained to the appropriate level, that can act as a neutral official, then great. I don't think that can happen right now though.

I agree that poorly performing refs need to be dropped, but replacing them might be an issue. Not a job many seem to be interested in. Can't think why

Are Ulster a welsh team? It was the ref guv!

ME-109 wrote:Are Ulster a welsh team? It was the ref guv!

I'd pipe down pal. You got beaten by a welsh team tonight despite having the ref on the payroll

Did someone get a funny smell just then?

I think we are really going to need to invest in trying to get refs and other officials up tot he required standard they don't need to be country neutral really I mean I have no worries with Nigel Owens reffing us v a Welsh team for example. What we need is the proper training for refs etc and tbh the league should help with this as the league is now fully professional and the refs should be up to the required standard

Potato Head has cost Ulster 5 points already in the league this season (a handicap that Munster don't have to suffer). This has to stop - could every Ulster fan instead of criticising him please adopt him as a national hero in a viral internet campaign so that he won't get any more games involving Ulster?

Works for me Aukster maybe we should all send the Pro 12 a card saying please give us Fitzgibbon this weekend as we have a bet on and he knows all about it. That should do it lol

As much as the TMO decisions frustrate me, you can not argue with the red card, a clear cut punch to the face is a guaranteed red card. There was clearly provocation, but the referee has to work with what he has got and that was the punch to the face. Ulster should never have been in these situations to start with.

With all that said, the game of rugby is really painful viewing these days. Technology is ruining the spectacle, dragging the game on and just stopping all momentum or continuity. Stopping play to go to the TMO every two seconds is mind numbing stuff.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:As much as the TMO decisions frustrate me, you can not argue with the red card, a clear cut punch to the face is a guaranteed red card.  There was clearly provocation, but the referee has to work with what he has got and that was the punch to the face.  Ulster should never have been in these situations to start with.

With all that said, the game of rugby is really painful viewing these days.  Technology is ruining the spectacle, dragging the game on and just stopping all momentum or continuity.  Stopping play to go to the TMO every two seconds is mind numbing stuff.

Nothing to do with the red card Rory. Zebre were given a try with an obvious forward pass, and Ulster were denied one because... ? 13-6 was the right scorelline - just the wrong teams on the numbers.

It is extremely difficult to win a game with 14 men for 70 minutes. We shouldn't have been in the position to have such close calls, as Notch has already alluded to earlier. The TMO calls really were pathetic, but maybe with the full 15 men and a few tries in the bag such calls wouldn't have had such a big impact on the game.

I remember that fixture 2 years ago where Zebre should have won but dodgy decisions went against them, i guess you can't always be lucky.

You obviously haven't watched the game, Vince. This wasn't about not getting the rub of the green. It was about blatant wrong calls by a TMO. There's a difference...

True, we did get out of jail against Zebre a couple of seasons ago. Can't say I remember it being due to a bad call though. From memory, Zebre looked the better team against a weakened Ulster side, and would have won it only to miss a kick at the sticks in the final minute. At least I think it was Zebre, and not Treviso.

Only watched till the red card, and well surely there was something behind it but you can't give a clear punch to the face and think you can get away with it.

That was Zebre 2 seasons ago in a cold november afternoon, Zebre lost 27-25 despite having 4 tries to 2.

I agree that Deccie shouldn't have responded in the manner he did, but think it's slightly understandable given that it looks like he was eye gouged by the Zebre hooker. Nasty.
A yellow card for me, and maybe no card for the offender, as actual contact couldn't be verified then and there, with the incident referred to the citing commission.

The TMO decisions were a disgrace. Personally I think the use of TMO's need to be reviewed with a view of scrapping the process. Seen to many bad calls now, and that includes one Scarlets try ruled out by an Ulster TMO.

Agreed, so many terrible decisions from the TMOs already despite its short lifetime, has to be scrapped or at least put someone neutral instead, it's really damaging.

True. Although claims of ref bias can largely be attributed to the paranoia of some fans, the same can't always be said of TMO's as it's so obvious. As you say, it's quite damaging for the image of the league. Either scrap TMO's or employ well trained officials who can be trusted to be objective in their judgement as neutrals.

In the case against the funky gibbon I refer to my previous post on this topic:

Please note the gibbon's position and where he is looking in each case......

"If Zebre remain in the game for more than 50 or 60 minutes there is always a chance of an upset on the books, you just never know what you are going to face with them. We hopefully will be looking to grind them down instead of going for the bonus point try from the off. Last season it was all out going for the tries and it ended up a tight game so calm heads are needed.

The fact we have Funkygibbon officiating yet again is even more reason to keep frosty cool. He above most refs can mean all the difference in a game, I mean look at what he offered up to us the last time with the disallowed try etc.

Look what he did for the O's against all be it, an already beaten Edinburgh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJaTyC1gqpQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M96G5hFkA0

Twice????
What does he have to do to get dropped to schools reffing?"

Fiasco. Draw a line under it and move on. Hopefully this just focuses minds.

We lost away to Scarlet and the Blues last season, so on balance, we're doing better. All we need now is a medical joker to cover our freshly injured medical joker, and we can start trying to get back on track.

Fitzgibbon used the TO and ARs literally every time it was possible. Not the sign of a confident ref. I wonder if there has already been a word in his ear about the Os tries, exacerbating the problem

Don Alfonso wrote:Fitzgibbon used the TO and ARs literally every time it was possible.  Not the sign of a confident ref.  I wonder if there has already been a word in his ear about the Os tries,  exacerbating the problem

The problem is those tries he looked at on the big screen, multiple times, and still got them horribly and totally wrong. Not to mention doing the same thing with Ludiks try against the Scarlets. He looked at every angle and made the wrong call.

We had to play well enough to take him out of the equation entirely and we didn't. As much as it's Ulsters fault we lost, I will be utterly baffled if he keeps getting games after the sheer number of high profile errors he's made in every game he's reffed this season.

There does need to be an official complaint made about his officiating. Edinburgh im sure would join in. It isn't fair to have him reffing some team and not others. I don't blame him for yesterday (Ulster deserved nothing imo) but he has become a bad joke and its time for the punchline.

Just got to watch the Ulster's disallowed try, it was nowhere near as bad a call as in the Blues game down there last season. Sure you regularly see these awarded but to the letter of the law crossing can be called too, BBC NI commenting doesn't really help having an objective view but decision not a travesty IMO.

By the way all isn't doom and gloom for you guys, either Munster or Leinster will have 3 losses after round 5 next week

Munchkin wrote:I agree that Deccie shouldn't have responded in the manner he did, but think it's slightly understandable given that it looks like he was eye gouged by the Zebre hooker. Nasty.
A yellow card for me, and maybe no card for the offender, as actual contact couldn't be verified then and there, with the incident referred to the citing commission.

The TMO decisions were a disgrace. Personally I think the use of TMO's need to be reviewed with a view of scrapping the process. Seen to many bad calls now, and that includes one Scarlets try ruled out by an Ulster TMO.

If it was a punch or attempted punch to the face, that's red, no leniency. If it were preceded by a gouge then the other player needs a red too but it doesn't mitigate the punch

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I agree that Deccie shouldn't have responded in the manner he did, but think it's slightly understandable given that it looks like he was eye gouged by the Zebre hooker. Nasty.
A yellow card for me, and maybe no card for the offender, as actual contact couldn't be verified then and there, with the incident referred to the citing commission.

The TMO decisions were a disgrace. Personally I think the use of TMO's need to be reviewed with a view of scrapping the process. Seen to many bad calls now, and that includes one Scarlets try ruled out by an Ulster TMO.

If it was a punch or attempted punch to the face, that's red, no leniency. If it were preceded by a gouge then the other player needs a red too but it doesn't mitigate the punch

No it doesn't. Deccie was to blame for that. Frustrating no action was taken against the Zebre player, not even a warning.

VinceWLB wrote:Just got to watch the Ulster's disallowed try, it was nowhere near as bad a call as in the Blues game down there last season. Sure you regularly see these awarded but to the letter of the law crossing can be called too, BBC NI commenting doesn't really help having an objective view but decision not a travesty IMO.

By the way all isn't doom and gloom for you guys, either Munster or Leinster will have 3 losses after round 5 next week

Cant agree Vince. In obstruction Bowe has to take a player out. He didn't. Garcia tackled him. He bought the dummy run and tackled a player without the ball. Bowe didn't initiate contact or run into Garcia. Garcia actually changed course to tackle Bowe. In no way is this a block. I cant recall the blues call so it must have been atrocious too.

Watch it again Bowe ran into Garcia in front of the ball, yeah it's a harsh call but by the letter of the law that's crossing.

As for the Zebre's try, that was a tap so i don't know why the direction of the hands has to matter really, as in yesterday NZ-Argentina's game the forward pass wasn't obvious, so correct call imo.

After watching the whole game, i thought Zebre were well worth their win and thought their scrum was quite good won a few penalties and resisted to the pressure at the end and Vunisa totally outplayed Nick Williams.

Again, Bowe has one line. Garcia changes his line to hit Bowe not the other way round. That's not crossing. it's bad defence from Garcia

I don't really have an issue with the Zebre try or that they deserved it. In truth If I was dishing out points I wouldn't even have gave ulster the one they got! But the TMOs decision on. Bowe was a disgrace and sadly not isolated as you have already hinted. It's an issue that needs addressed

You lads are getting a serious victim mentality lately...oh hang on I forgot its Ulster we are talking about..

ME-109 wrote:You lads are getting a serious victim mentality lately...oh hang on I forgot its Ulster we are talking about..

Aye, Munster never play the victim. Never complain about match officials. Never complain about Ireland team selection. Never complain when everyone, bar them, realize Zebo really isn't all that good

After reading this thread I myself felt compelled to watch this game, and more interestingly the red card offence, although I only managed to watch the highlights, the red card was correct, but I would hope the citing committee is brought in to deal with the gouging incident, as for the disallowed try, it was marginal, but you can understand why it was disallowed, the Ospreys had more of a right to feel cheated after the try they had disallowed against Munster, but it was in the same boundaries as the Ulster one, and there for you can sympathise why it was given, for me Ulster did not do enough to win, they could have had this game all sewn up by the hour but they didn't and the Zebre scrum won that game, Ulster have gone away to better teams than Zebre and have won this season, for me it was a case of Ulster being too cocky and thinking they had the game in the bag before a ball had been kicked, and it cost them, looking at that game though, I can tell you now, that other teams will try and take the same tactics and frustrate Ulster to get a result, and it might just work. We can all reflect on this game after next Friday night when the Ospreys go to Zebre,, and I hope the Ospreys take the Ulster V Zebre game into account and bare in mind, that not every game is a gimmee

It's been said earlier in the thread but I'll say it again, to have 14 men for 70 minutes of a games cannot be underestimated in regards to why we lost against a better Zebre side than we've seen before. We came close to beating both Leinster and Saracens when we had a player sent off but it was in a completely different context to this game. It's a lot harder to compete with only 14 men on the pitch than those previous games would suggest.
The Red card was the right decision to the letter of the law but as a rugby fan I feel a punch in the face is more deserving of a yellow, especially the one Deccie threw which was more a case of handbags than boxing. He was stupid and cost us the game there's no doubt but it's pretty obvious he was gouged by Manici. How Manici's hand moves across Deccie's face and the presence of blood is evidence enough for me and it's disgusting.
It's OK comparing the disallowed try to one other that was also disallowed but compare it to the many similar tries that are scored all the time and it makes for a different outcome. The TMO got it wrong of that I am absolutely sure.

That all said Ulster performed at the very lowest of their standard. We knew Zebre can be tricky when they're at home as the game last season showed us and we seemed devoid of ideas on how to deal with the red card besides group panic. Not a game I'll want to retain in my memory, hopefully it'll be remembered by the Ulster squad as an example of what not to do.

We will pay for missing those points at the tough business end of the season, of that I am also absolutely sure.

VinceWLB wrote:Watch it again Bowe ran into Garcia in front of the ball, yeah it's a harsh call but by the letter of the law that's crossing.

It's not a blocking line. Garcia falls for the dummy run and Bowe doesn't change his line or attempt to prevent Garcia from recovering. It looks incredibly unlikely he would have been able to recover anyway. If you're going to disallow that, then you're going to disallow all dummy runs and that is just bad for the game.

If there was holding or Bowe was running into Garcia fair enough, but Bowe just runs a hard line and he doesn't get the ball. It was a fantastic piece of back play, and to disallow it because the defender fell for the dummy line is not a good decision. Best piece of rugby in the entire 80 minutes and it's chalked off- how is that good for anyone?

Pete it wasn't a better Zebre side. Zebre didn't have a particularly good game, they were absolutely there for the taking and we played very badly.

Notch wrote:Pete it wasn't a better Zebre side. Zebre didn't have a particularly good game, they were absolutely there for the taking and we played very badly.

Notch, do you realise what you have just said ? If Zebre were not the better side, then they would not have won, lets be honest here, Ulster should be putting four tries on that lot, but you played badly, hence on the day Zebre were the better side.

I realise exactly what I said. You have misunderstood both my comment and Petes. Pete said it was a better Zebre side than we have seen so far, meaning they played better than they have done in their previous four games. I disagreed, they were as poor as they have been so far. The comment has nothing to do with who was the better side on the day. Purely rating Zebres performance without any reference to Ulster.

Both sides played very badly on the day. Ulster were arguably worse albeit we could have still gotten away with a win with a few different TMO decisions- we wouldn't have deserved it based on our performance. We didn't lose because we played well, but that doesn't mean Zebre looked good either. They were poor, we were poor- it was a terrible, terrible game of rugby in terms of quality from both teams.

Ah, so what you are saying is, Zebre were the best of a bad bunch.