He lives! Martin Johnson surfaces.

Short interview in the Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11121580/Martin-Johnson-England-dragged-rugby-through-the-mud-at-2011-World-Cup.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11122355/World-Cup-2011-was-nowhere-near-as-bad-as-it-was-painted-says-former-England-manager-Martin-Johnson.html

I thought he might start to be around, because he appeared in the promotional video which put a few noses out of joint in New Zealand the other day.

Johnson got our World Cup strategy very wrong in 2011 - Wilkinson's kicking percentage dropped off a cliff with that ball, while Flood was slotting them relatively smoothly, and offered more in attack etc etc - but I was astounded by the way the British press covered the campaign. Usually you can blame the journalists who have been parachuted in to a big event but, on this occasion, it was rugby writers like Cleary who were guilty.

It's sad, because Johnson is a thoughtful and decent man, and you'd think he would be an asset to the sport in England. If the RFU hadn't panicked at the way the Andy Robinson and Brian Ashton eras were turning sponsors away, and hurriedly brought him in to save the day, then he might have had time to develop.

Certainly, he took on the role offered, so he is responsible for what happened during his tenure but it seems such a waste. We have a World Cup winning coach who people like to mock, and a World Cup winning captain who some might now dismiss because he wasn't a World cup winning coach.

Rugby Fan,
I can't agree more. MJ is a terrific Rugby man. To lose him would be a waste.

You raise a great question: Why do we marginalise our RWC winning coach and captain?

MJ will always be an rugby legend – as a player and captain. Journos will always write their drivel. I know which will be remembered. He did lose his nerve a bit in the RWC11, but to be fair the talent in the backs wasn’t really there and we were never going to win the thing – wait a minute, that sounds familiar: 3 years later we still don’t know what our back line is. Mind you, he got the best out of the Splash – which is no mean feat. Finally done by the journos dream-team of alcohol, royalty, snogging and dwarves – what man could survive that?

Got a lot of respect for Johnson, terrific player, captain and pro. He was given a job where there was never going to be a winner, a period of time where the RFU didn't really know what they wanted.

It's a shame he's not involved in the game right now, obviously very wary after his last experience coaching. Maybe he'll return if Cockerall ever steps down at Leicester?

Our media love a bad news story, especially when it comes to international sport. They go looking for stuff that they can tar our teams with.

Sure, certain England players (Tindall) didn't help matters. But other teams at that RWC did the same events (e.g. bungee jumping) and venues as England, but we didn't hear about it.

Contrast the Conor Murray and Simon Zebo 'threesome' story in Ireland. That was largely swept under the carpet by the Irish media lest it undermine their sporting heroes.

The story did get get a going over on several online forums in Ireland - notably ThePeoplesRepublicofCork and thepotato.

I cant help thinking that Tindall really messed up. In his position with his experience and his inlaws you would have thought he would have been very wary. But a great deal of the stuff outside of the rugby was blown out of proportion

Interesting to note that between 2003 and 2011 there had been no 6N tournament wins for England and MJ had achieved what no other manager since Woodward had done.

When England made the final in 2007 it was an unexpected surprise. When England didn't make the semi finals in 2011 against a team that was performing probably even worse than England, it came also as an unexpected surprise.

Part of me wishes I had access to a parallel dimension where MJ continued his role and SL was never made 'caretaker' manager. It'd be interesting to track the progression of England under MJ.

On a final note, 3 years to break his media silence. Just how seething must have MJ been during that time?!

I think Jonno as a coach struggled to adapt to the changes in the game.

He was ever so cautious often choosing experience before youth. Guys like Haskell would still be on the subs bench for every game as he's an experienced pro.

I think this comes down to him never really coaching before he became England Manager. He stuck to things he knew best. Rarely stuck his neck out as coach.
A little like Jack Rowell circa 1995 when he played 3 eightmen in his backrow but kept Neil Back in the squad but not even on the bench. He too was unable to see the developments in the game.

Had he stayed on I think England would have improved, SL is no messiah, he's a good coach but I doubt he will hit the highs of SCW (although with his highs came many lows too).

Guys like Danny Care rubbed up Jonno the wrong way though... and I think that would have been a definitive difference. He would have kept Youngs at 9 (which doesn't suit Farrell as well), probably Barritt too and chaps like Brown I'm not sure would have got the breaks over seemingly more suitable Foden for instance. Only my opinion and perhaps Jonno would have done so had he got a genuine backs coach in.

I still think England made a huge mistake not selecting Nick Mallett as coach. I think England would have gone up a few notches with him on board but that's life for you.

fa, I think that's a slightly revisionist version of history. I don't think Johnno was behind the curve in adapting to how the game had changed. He brought through a lot of new players and up until quite late in his reign he was on the money tactically. He had England playing some expansive rugby and (for instance) secured back to back home and away wins over Australia, introduced players like Corbs, B Youngs, Wood, Tuilagi, Foden, Lawes and Ashton (back when Ashton was playing well at international level).

Where it all went wrong, as far as I can see, was in the defeat in Dublin at the end of the 2011 6N. England were blown away at the breakdown by an Irish team that played with greater intensity. Thereafter, Johnno seemed to adopt a more conservative game plan and, crucially, more conservative selection. (Interestingly, Lancaster seems to do the opposite: he has stuck to his guns on both tactics and selections in the face of defeat and has generally been rewarded for it over time.)

His big mistake was relying on his 2003 cohorts to do it one more time, and to keep their noses clean in public. They didn't, the press didn't let them off the hook, and the camp fractured. It didn't help that, reportedly, he overlooked the form players in the training squad in favour of experience.

However, I agree that I would have liked to see him stay - though both the squad and the ethos would have needed an overhaul, which might have meant bringing Lancaster in as head coach (as Woodward did with Robinson) after all.

My hope is that one day he will be invited to coach the Lions. He is not a serving national coach so has no selectorial axe to grind. He knows what the Lions are about, and he would be able to pick the best of the national coaches to assist him. He's shown himself to be a good selector (and with no 2003 players left to rely on, he would choose on form). He's been out of the game for a while - but then he was when he took over the England job and did a good job up until the RWC.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Contrast the Conor Murray and Simon Zebo 'threesome' story in Ireland. That was largely swept under the carpet by the Irish media lest it undermine their sporting heroes.

The story did get get a going over on several online forums in Ireland - notably ThePeoplesRepublicofCork and thepotato.

Haha i remember reading about that, didn't Alex Cuthbert crop up in this as well? Remember reading it on an irish rugby forum.

gcB - Zebo was renamed 'threebo' on one of those forums.


There was another player involved; can't remember if it was Cuthbert though.

Yes, he did get torn to pieces by the media and yes he certainly introduced a lot of players who are now at the core of the England team.
That said, remember this?
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/nov/18/england-new-zealand-ayoola-erinle

flankertye wrote:Yes, he did get torn to pieces by the media and yes he certainly introduced a lot of players who are now at the core of the England team.
That said, remember this?
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/nov/18/england-new-zealand-ayoola-erinle

'Oogie' was a terrific impact sub for Wasps (not often a centre is on the subs bench), but he was not international class.

It was a bit of a roller coaster with MJ. We tore teams like France, Italy and Australia apart, new backs like Youngs, Manu, Armitage, Ashton and Foden were introduced and looked lethal on the attack too.

We also had gash moments, like against SA and Ireland and that whole RWC tour. Oh and that Argentina game in the purple.

Oh and I would have kept him and got rid of the walking oxygen theives Ford and Wells two total and utter wastes of space!! Frak knows how those dinosaurs stayed in their jobs so long.

And that Frak scam artist of a "kicking coach"

He has so much to offer the game, he went from no experience to 10 wins out of 13 in his last season and found the backbone of a great team which still stands today. It was a learning curve for him and to some extent he was a victim to the changing coverage of rugby in the media when rugby players used to get away with alot more. For me his only real error was his bottled selection in that france rwc test. He should have picked the team that beat france in the six nations then all would be different (stevens not playing on the wrong side, but corbs starting, no out of form and untested wilko and flood partnership but flood and hape. ( flood, hape, tindall was the form partnership) Also 5/2 split on the bench was silly. Much like the rfu in selecting johnno there was a bit of looking back to 2003 from mj... when a new approach was required. I hope he comes back to Leicester on some capacity now the dust has settled, I bet a man like johnno feels very betrayed but hes still young and has alot of trophies to win.

England Coaches records over the same period as Martin Johnson [roughly]
Sir Clive Woodward 1997-9 P36 W 21 D2 L 13
Andy Robinson 2004-6 P22 W 9 L 13
Brian Ashton 2006-8 P 22 W 12 L 10
MartinJohnson 2008-11 P 38 W21 D 1 L 16
Stuart Lancaster 2011-14 P29 W18 L11

Sir Clive actually lost more games than Robinson or Ashton before they were sacked
SCW won a RWC,Ashton got a team to a RWC Final.It was subsequently admitted
that Ashton shouldn`t have been sacked.

Martin Johnson despite having no qualifications of coaching at ANY LEVEL was appointed
Head Coach mainly due to Media pressure.As can be seen his record is not vastly inferior
to Sir Clives over a similar period.

THE most significant factor in Sir Clives period 2000.-3 despite the undisputed quality
of his side was Jonny Wilkinson taking over the kicking role.It is also significant that
the periods he was injured is at the start of the decline in Englands fortunes.

Due to injuries he had to change both his tackling and goalkicking style during this period
several 10`s with a better all round game than him.Were rejected because they weren't
HIM.Also Coaches suffered because they weren't SCW and England lived in the shadow
of HIS team.

Johnson introduced several players into his side and also started a more flexible gameplan
from those evolved post SCW.He made mistakes in retaining senior players maybe to long
AB`s made that mistake in 1991.

He resigned over disciplinary problems in 2011 RWC as he rightly said all players let off
steam.When you win it`s swept under the carpet when you lose?he has gone on record
as saying England 2015.Will be under tremendous pressure of the field describing as a
rollercoaster tidal wave that drives you along.

emack2 wrote:...Martin Johnson despite having no qualifications of coaching at ANY LEVEL was appointed
Head Coach mainly due to Media pressure...

It wasn't so much media pressure. No-one was calling for Johnson to be coach, and if the RFU was responding to media at that time, they probably would have ditched Rob Andrew, who was a favourite target because no-one could work out what he was doing.

The key reason the RFU turned to Johnson is that they hoped his name and reputation would satisfy increasingly unhappy sponsors and corporate donors.

yappysnap wrote:Oh and I would have kept him and got rid of the walking oxygen theives Ford and Wells two total and utter wastes of space!! Frak knows how those dinosaurs stayed in their jobs so long.

And that Frak scam artist of a "kicking coach"

Johnson was given carte blanche in his coaching selection when he came in and he opted to retain Wells & Ford. His first and probably biggest mistake that would become a bit of a theme of misplaced loyalty and poor managerial judgement. Wells in particular was a big part of what was wrong with the England game and squad atmosphere at the time; it was a stale system that required a top to bottom shake-up, something that the +3 years to the next world cup would have allowed him to implement.

Even without coaching experience Johnson could have been a decent manager, but having only relatively recently retired, his closeness to a number of elements proved more of a limiting factor than a benefit.

OK. I'll use this thread to come back in from my summer break.

Mainly because this has been an awful summer for NH rugby and the quality of debate here on 606v2 has in the interim has in general been pretty rank.

Johnno should never have been sacked/forced to resign for the abysmal lack of personal restraint and responsibility of a good proportion of the very men he should have been able to rely upon. Moody for his abandonment of his captain's responsibility in the bar when Tindall disgraced himself literally royally. And the incident with the room service girl. And dwarf tossing. And the RFU itself staying at home (particularly Squeaky).

Having said that Lancaster coming in as his wing man to assist in the work Johnno had already started would have been welcome and might have avoided the dreadful situation we have now with Andy Farrell coming in and the lumpy 'progress' of our backs.

But then, the last thing that the RFU board ever does is to take on the mantle of management. Remember the mess that they were in at the time the Lancaster was made chief? There wasn't a board to speak of. They were all too busy cauterising their own arses and securing their place in the G&T and jollies queue.


[ed] And by the way, only now will I read the interview pieces to see if there's anything informative enough to make me tweak my views.

alcoombe wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Oh and I would have kept him and got rid of the walking oxygen theives Ford and Wells two total and utter wastes of space!! Frak knows how those dinosaurs stayed in their jobs so long.

And that Frak scam artist of a "kicking coach"

Johnson was given carte blanche in his coaching selection when he came in and he opted to retain Wells & Ford..

Johnson did try and get Shaun Edwards, but he'd already committed to Wales. One problem Johnson faced is that I don't think he knew who England's best coaches were. I'm not sure anyone did. Johnson would have got better if he's stayed but there's no way of knowing if that would have been good enough. Now that he's been out of the sport for three years, if he ever wanted to go back to coaching, he'd be starting from scratch.

I'm not surprised to read his comments about experienced players:

“But maybe the model’s changed. Now you see guys like Floody [Toby Flood], James Haskell, Chris Ashton, who have all got 50 caps plus, and it could be that none of them is going to be in the team next year. In the past it always seemed like you needed those kind of players around to be successful. Now it seems to be chop and change, and you go with the next young guy who is coming through.”

When he selected his teams, you could almost see Johnson thinking that the starting fifteen had to meet a certain quota of caps. If Lawes, Ashton and Youngs were playing then he wanted Thompson, Tindall and Moody etc. He wanted to bring in young players but felt that too much inexperience wouldn't win a World Cup.