Can wrestlers create a lasting legacy without wrestling in the WWE?

TNA have an exclusive interview with the American Wolves in which Davey Richards explains why they chose Full Metal Mayhem as the next stipulation in the tag team series. Richards says the Wolves don`t just want to beat Team 3D or the Hardy`s they want to become legends and remembered as one of the greatest tag teams of all time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDoPCQQzK0I

It`s a good interview, the Wolves come across as sincere and genuine (while maintaining kayfabe). Richards commented that they don`t just want to be a good tag team or even good tag team champions, he said he didn`t get into wrestling or suffer all his injuries just to be remembered as a `good` wrestler. The Wolves also did a good job of putting over the tag team division in TNA.

So the interview got me thinking, can wrestlers (tag teams or single competitors) in the modern era create a lasting legacy and become genuine legends of the industry without wrestling (and winning championships) in the WWE? One man who comes to mind is Sting, who for years was known as the greatest wrestler never to have wrestled in the WWE, but even that may change now. Naturally wrestling in the WWE won`t `make` Sting`s legacy but it will certainly cement it.

So can the Wolves and others become legends without wrestling for the WWE?

Depends how you define legend in this case. Its possible to be a legend to the hardcore fans but not in the eyes of mainstream wrestling.

Is AJ Styles a legend of wrestling? I can't see who you could use as a better example for this question

Samo wrote:Depends how you define legend in this case. Its possible to be a legend to the hardcore fans but not in the eyes of mainstream wrestling.

good point. And how do you define mainstream wrestling? As the WWE is the largest and most prolific wrestling promotion in the world, it has the lion`s share of viewership, PPV & merchandise sales and attendance. Therefore does mainstream wrestling = the WWE?

Or has wrestling as a hobby/spectator sport/entertainment become a niche in the mainstream itself? Is there such a thing as a casual wrestling fan anymore? If casual wrestling fans do exist would they even know the recognized legends of wrestling?

Going back to the Wolves, let`s just say they become the most successful TNA tag team champions in the history of the company, overshadowing Beer Money and the MCMG. Let`s just say they beat everyone in the tag team division and become the longest reigning tag team champions in the company`s history. Let`s say that TNA secures a new TV deal and remains on US TV for the next several years, growing little by little each year to the point where their ratings and even PPV sales go up and eventually the Wolves become TNA Hall of Famers. But when all is said and done, would the Wolves become bona fide legends in the industry or just to TNA fans?

Is there a criteria for legend status? Popularity? Championships? Originality? Longevity?

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Is AJ Styles a legend of wrestling? I can't see who you could use as a better example for this question

Great example. AJ Styles is definitely a legend within TNA and should, hopefully, enter the TNA Hall of Fame one day. But I don`t know whether he would be considered a legend of wrestling at the moment. Maybe, if he stays with ROH for the next 10 years and becomes a multiple time ROH champion, then he might be considered a legend of the wrestling industry having been the poster boy for the second and third largest wrestling promotions in America.

I would also say that Daniel Bryan would also fall into the same category as Sting. DB was a legend of the indie wrestling scene before signing for the WWE and even though his popularity has exploded since joining the WWE, I think that comes from the fact that he had already established his reputation from the indies and WWE picked up on it and gave him the platform to showcase himself. For me, being in the WWE will cement DB status, but I think it was there before he went to the WWE.

I would say Samoa Joe is a potential candidate for legend status despite never having worked in the WWE.

AJ and Samoa Joe have both worked in WWE. So has Bobby Roode. Austin Aries is probably the biggest name in TNA right now who hasnt.

Guys like AJ, Punk, Bryan, Joe, Cabana, Ki, KENTA, Generico and Steen would always have been held in massive regard by the Indy fans of wrestling even if they hadnt worked in WWE. You can even be regarded as a legend in WWE if you never hit the heights, guys like Owen Hart, Bulldog, Razor Ramon and Ted DiBiase will ALWAYS be regarded as legends despite not winning the big one.

There are guys who were legends in their respective companies before signing for WWE and going on to do nothing, like the ECW originals. ECDUB diehards will always regard Tommy Dreamer, Raven and Sabu as above WWE guys because of their fierce loyalty. Its all down to personal definition of legend.

Its tough, but if you asked someone to name a true legend of wrestling, chances are they'd pick a WWF/E guy.

What about Jushin Thunder Liger?

Btw when did Joe & Roode work for the WWE?

Good point about not all WWE legends winning the big one, so true.

Joe had a tryout match v Essa Rios in 2001

http://www.wwe.com/videos/samoa-joe-vs-essa-rios-jakked-march-3-2001-26091281

Roode had a few matches in 2003 including this v Billy Kidmab
https://youtu.be/fG4yBzlhEaE

Hero wrote:Joe had a tryout match v Essa Rios in 2001

http://www.wwe.com/videos/samoa-joe-vs-essa-rios-jakked-march-3-2001-26091281

Roode had a few matches in 2003 including this v Billy Kidmab
https://youtu.be/fG4yBzlhEaE

well you learn something new every day!

But, were they under contract with the WWE? Working a few matches or a try out match is hardly having a career in the WWE.

I guess when I asked the question, I meant can a wrestler make a legacy in the industry and become a legend without their success coming in the WWE? It is clear that AJ, Joe and Roode didn`t make their career in the WWE, even if they wrestled briefly for them.

I dont think anyone compares TNA wise with AJ Styles when it comes to this question. Of course, it is also a question of where you define the legendary status. In the west you are less likely to hear Japanese legends considered.

I think the sticking point would be that can you become a legend if your main body of work was TNA? Not to denigrate the company, I do that enough on the podcast, but with their limited success in comparison and the fact no star there has really been able to make a major move of the needle happen, then can someone be that legend?

For example, Kurt Angle would be considered a legend of wrestling, but probably not based on any of his TNA work. Rightly or wrongly, and I'm not offering my personal opinion, just making a point about the way TNA is viewed by the wrestling crowd.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:I dont think anyone compares TNA wise with AJ Styles when it comes to this question. Of course, it is also a question of where you define the legendary status. In the west you are less likely to hear Japanese legends considered.

I think the sticking point would be that can you become a legend if your main body of work was TNA? Not to denigrate the company, I do that enough on the podcast, but with their limited success in comparison and the fact no star there has really been able to make a major move of the needle happen, then can someone be that legend?

For example, Kurt Angle would be considered a legend of wrestling, but probably not based on any of his TNA work. Rightly or wrongly, and I'm not offering my personal opinion, just making a point about the way TNA is viewed by the wrestling crowd.

I agree to a certain degree. The inability of stars like Angle and Sting to move the needle for TNA is a damning indictment of TNA`s status. However, I think the future could be brighter for TNA if they can find a new network. Much has been made of Spike`s apparent lack of promotion and marketing. If a new network (and potentially one in need of more viewers) were to help market TNA better then this could result in better ratings and growth. TNA just recently announced they signed a new TV deal in Singapore and Malaysia, so their Asian market is continuing to grow. I`m not sure about ratings in Asia but TNA is broadcast in 120 countries worldwide so while they are considered relatively insignificant compared to the WWE in America, they must have a fairly strong fan base globally. It will be interesting to see if TNA can capitalize on this in the future.

Going back to the example of the Wolves, where do they compare to other legendary tag teams?

Let`s start with TNA:
Beer Money
MCMG
Bad Influence

How would you rate the Wolves within TNA`s elite tag teams?

WWE/WCW:

Legion of Doom
Midnight Rockers
The Wild Samoans
The British Bulldogs
The Hart Foundation
Demolition
Midnight Express

How do the Wolves compare to some of these legendary teams?

talkingpoint wrote:Going back to the example of the Wolves, where do they compare to other legendary tag teams?

Let`s start with TNA:
Beer Money
MCMG
Bad Influence

How would you rate the Wolves within TNA`s elite tag teams?

WWE/WCW:

Legion of Doom
Midnight Rockers
The Wild Samoans
The British Bulldogs
The Hart Foundation
Demolition
Midnight Express

How do the Wolves compare to some of these legendary teams?

From a pure wrestling stand point the Wolves are certainly up there already, even surpassing teams like the Samoans, Bulldogs and LOD. But they're still a very young team, and will take a while, if ever, for them to get the name power of any of those teams you mentioned.

Right now they dont even have the star power of teams like the Acolytes or the New Age Outlaws. If they win this tag series then TNA REALLY need to push the fact that these guys beat two of the best tag teams of the past 15 years at their own matches and make the Wolves seem like a huge deal. If they dont it was all for nothing, and I fear they'll never reach the heights they're capable of.

I think they will win the tag team series, but for me where do they go after the series? They need to build Bram and Magnus up as a legitimate tag team with serious ambition of becoming tag team champions in order to give the Wolves a meaningful feud.

I would personally bring in some tag teams from the indies to wrestle the Wolves and give them a streak; you could book it that the Wolves having beat the Hardys and Team 3D claim they are the best in the world and issue a challenge for any tag team to come and beat them. Then each week you could have a different tag team come and challenge them. The Wolves do this for a couple of months before either Bram & Magnus step up or even better TNA bring Bad Influence back! Then you could have Bad Influence win the tag team titles dirty, keeping the Wolves looking strong and leading into a feud in which they win back the titles and claim Bad Influence as another scalp, adding to their star power.

Ideally in about a year`s time TNA will reform Beer Money for the Wolves to have a dream match. But with the uncertainty of TNA`s immediate future and cost cutting measures, I think the Wolves will languish for a while.

talkingpoint wrote:Going back to the example of the Wolves, where do they compare to other legendary tag teams?

Let`s start with TNA:
Beer Money
MCMG
Bad Influence

How would you rate the Wolves within TNA`s elite tag teams?

WWE/WCW:

Legion of Doom
Midnight Rockers
The Wild Samoans
The British Bulldogs
The Hart Foundation
Demolition
Midnight Express

How do the Wolves compare to some of these legendary teams?

Not forgetting, of course, Team 3D and the Hardy Boys who have worked for both promotions

Think I agree with the general consensus. The Wolves have great potential, to be sure. Don't think either are larger-than-life characters like Bully, D'von or Jeff Hardy, but they tell a good story and they have moves as good as, if not better than, the other teams.

Hopefully if their push is maintained, their characters will become as polished as their ring work and they will be remembered as greats, at least, if not legends.

Think its a little unfair to compare them to guys that have been around 15-20 years, or the old WWF legends.

Beer Money - not especially great characters but a hell of a well-oiled machine in the ring and always good to watch.

MCMG - similar to Beer Money but with a better move set, being smaller, more agile and usually put into the X Division scene.

Bad Influence - the best tag team TNA ever created IMO. Kaz and Daniels were brilliantly OTT characters on the mic and out of the ring and were very capable between the ropes too.


The Wolves come across as pretty serious, intense characters so I see them being another Beer Money or MCMG. They could be at least as big, of not bigger. Of course that all depends on how TNA decide to book them after this title series is over.

Neither Team 3D or the Hardys really need another title at this point in their careers, so I'm hoping the Wolves keep their belts and continue to be pushed.

I think it'll be hard to truly create a long lasting memory if your work doesn't reach as many people as possible, when you work for WWE your work will reach maximum Wrestling fans World wide but only if you are considered a main player will you be given enough time and lee-way in matches to leave a lasting impression, the WWE has such a generic style now to its matches that unless younare given 20 minutes on a PPV not often will the audiance see what you are capable of, what it can do though, particularly in the case of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan - if they aare given TV time and can connect with the audiance then it allows more fans to do their own research on them and show how good they really are.

I think most guys WWE work alone wont get them a lasting legacy but being associated with the WWE brand will get their name out there and allow more people to be aware of what they did prior to WWE which added to their WWE popularity can then build their chances of a lasting legacy.

Since AJ Styles has been the topic on here  I'll use him as an example, I think he's a top talent and a great worker, I wqs never sold on any of his characters though but his ring work was always top notch - do I think he has created a lasting legacy? Yes, absolutely among those who have watched him regularly, that doesn't mean I think he'll have a lasting legact to the average Wrestling fan though, if AJ went to WWE for 3 years then by 2018 almost every WWE fan would be aware of how good he has been throughout his career, now he might not be given a major opportunity to showcase his talents regularly in WWE but the assosication with WWE would suddenly get more fans searching for his stuff online, they'd see what he was capable of and if after 3 years he wasn't a great success in WWE, his whole package would reach a far greater audiance than he's ever had before and people would be more inclined to use him as comparisons for younger up and comers.

Kay Fabe wrote:I think it'll be hard to truly create a long lasting memory if your work doesn't reach as many people as possible, when you work for WWE your work will reach maximum Wrestling fans World wide but only if you are considered a main player will you be given enough time and lee-way in matches to leave a lasting impression, the WWE has such a generic style now to its matches that unless younare given 20 minutes on a PPV not often will the audiance see what you are capable of, what it can do though, particularly in the case of CM Punk and Daniel Bryan - if they aare given TV time and can connect with the audiance then it allows more fans to do their own research on them and show how good they really are.

I think most guys WWE work alone wont get them a lasting legacy but being associated with the WWE brand will get their name out there and allow more people to be aware of what they did prior to WWE which added to their WWE popularity can then build their chances of a lasting legacy.

Since AJ Styles has been the topic on here  I'll use him as an example, I think he's a top talent and a great worker, I wqs never sold on any of his characters though but his ring work was always top notch - do I think he has created a lasting legacy? Yes, absolutely among those who have watched him regularly, that doesn't mean I think he'll have a lasting legact to the average Wrestling fan though, if AJ went to WWE for 3 years then by 2018 almost every WWE fan would be aware of how good he has been throughout his career, now he might not be given a major opportunity to showcase his talents regularly in WWE but the assosication with WWE would suddenly get more fans searching for his stuff online, they'd see what he was capable of and if after 3 years he wasn't a great success in WWE, his whole package would reach a far greater audiance than he's ever had before and people would be more inclined to use him as comparisons for younger up and comers.

I totally agree. Take Sting as another example, now he`s gone to the WWE it will validate his legacy, especially as they have all the rights to his WCW years.

I was going to disagree with you about Sting but then I got to thinking about it, I'd say most Wrestling fans over the age of 20 will be aware of Sting's role in the buisness but what about those under 20, what happens in 20 years time if Sting didn't go to WWE, would a 20 year old in 2034 be that fussed about a then 40 somethings 10 year association with TNA in the early part of the Century?  With WWE having all the rights to his prime then you can see why it'd be a no-brainer for guys to want to be apart of the WWE, even for a short glory run say WrestleMania-WrestleMania

These guys will want to be remembered, more so those who truly lived and breathed the business, the best and easiest way for your name to reach people will be assoociation with the big dog