Ireland U20s 2014-15

First topic message reminder :

Mike Ruddock has stepped down. Connachts academy coach Nigel Carolan takes over.

http://www.thescore.ie/ireland-u20s-ruddock-carolan-1717535-Oct2014/

Returning U20 players from last season

Oisin Heffernan
Garry Ringrose
Billy Dardis
Josh Murphy
Sean McNulty
Harrison Brewer
Jack Cullen
Ciaran Gaffney
Nick McCarthy
Ross Byrne
Ross Moloney

Many of those players are playing in the B&I cup and All Ireland league.

Ulster won this seasons interpros. Leinster came second, Connacht third and Munster last. So expect Ulster to have more than 2 players this season. Leinster will dominate the make up of the squad again.

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IRELAND UNDER-20 Squad (2015 Under-20 RBS 6 Nations):

Sam Arnold (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
Harrison Brewer (Terenure College/Leinster) *
Ross Byrne (UCD/Leinster)*
Joey Carbery (UCD/Leinster)
Fergal Cleary (Lansdowne/Leinster)
Jack Cullen (Shannon/Munster) *
Billy Dardis (UCD/Leinster) *
Lorcan Dow (Queen's University/Ulster)
Jack Dwan (Leinster)
Stephen Fitzgerald (Shannon/Munster)
Ciaran Gaffney (Galwegians/Connacht) *
Oisin Heffernan (Terenure College/Leinster) *
Michael Lagan (Ballymena/Ulster)
Jeremy Loughman (UCD/Leinster)
Zac McCall (Queen's University/Ulster)
Nick McCarthy (UCD/Leinster) (capt) *
Sean McNulty (UCD/Munster) *
Stephen McVeigh (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Rory Moloney (Buccaneers/Connacht) *
Josh Murphy (UCD/Leinster) *
David O'Connor (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Conan O'Donnell (Sligo/Connacht)
Conor Oliver (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
Greg O'Shea (Shannon/Munster)
Jack Owens (Queen's University/Ulster)
Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster) *
Cian Romaine (Buccaneers/Connacht)
Jacob Stockdale (Queen's University/Ulster)
Alexander Thompson (Queen's University/Ulster)
Nick Timoney (St. Mary's College/Leinster)

*Played last season as well.

4 Munster, 5 Connacht, 7 Ulster, 14 Leinster

Wales 3 - 0 Ireland. Good start and strong first scrum from Wales.

The ref needs to have a bit more sympathy for the game. But he is doing ok.

Aweful game so far.

Nevermind, this ref is a joke. Who is teaching these guys? No sympathy for the fans or the players at all.

Wales 10pts up at half time. Irelands pack have been sh!te.

profitius wrote:Wales 10pts up at half time. Irelands pack have been sh!te.

So how did you beat France?

Welsh openside good player

Good game I thought Wales deserved to win much the better side great try in the first half. Wales pack were very good but went down hill with the subs coming on.

Good game? It was an awful spectacle!

Shocking management on Irelands behalf, firstly telling them to just go out to play with on pressure doesn't create an environment to build top players and then after telling to go out and play you inhibit them and stick them behind a pack that is being demolished at every scrum

Get in.
U20s enthusiasm and desire is infectious and what a fantastic try by Wales. Would like to see these games played around the regions too. One oop north and the rest south of the M4.

Good to hear the Wales average age is 18 against Ireland's 19 which should put Wales in a good position for next year's RWC.

The Saint wrote:

profitius wrote:Wales 10pts up at half time. Irelands pack have been sh!te.

So how did you beat France?

The backs scored 3 good tries and an intercept. Carolan picked a different team for this match for some reason.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Good game? It was an awful spectacle!

It wasn't the greatest match to be fair. If you've recorded it just press delete.

The team selection was a big mystery - playing two locks who can't push? The only possible excuse for Carolan is that he's trying different combinations as he has to rotate during the JWC. Zak McCall was really good again so he'll probably be dropped for Scotland.

Scotland 17 - 10 Ireland

Ireland finish 5th in the table.

profitius wrote:Scotland 17 - 10 Ireland

Ireland finish 5th in the table.

You sure? I thought Wales did, we had some very poor results and were very inconsistent. We should fair better at the JWC if we get some players back.

Hard to comment on the game when it wasn't televised, but Ireland and especially Carolan will hopefully learn a lot from this series. He changed things up after a narrow loss to England, which was not a good idea and the team disintegrated thereafter.

On the other thread there was a question about who would make it to the senior levels, and the consensus was hardly anyone. I'd disagree with that as there are actually some very decent players there who obviously need to learn and develop but generally played with their head up to see what was in front of them. They may have made wrong choices and poor decisions but at least they were made naively rather than blindly.
Ross Byrne for example makes good decisions when he has time and made some pretty awful ones when he rushed his process. He will never again put a kick for one chaser to a packed backfield with no cover of his own on that side of the pitch. He has shown enough that he will learn from that.

I can see most of the Ulster contingent being worth further investment.
Sam Arnold is cut from the Ian Whitten type of cloth and didn't look out of place on his senior debut.
Lorcan Dow seems to be a bit of a leader but hasn't the physicality yet to know if he could make it.
Michael Lagan again is a leader but got little opportunity to show what he can do
Zac McCall had a great series, good in the set piece, like Rory Best at the breakdown, and like Sean Cronin with ball in hand - a future, absolutely
Jack Owens - solid if unspectacular, made very few mistakes but it remains to be seen if he has an X factor
Jacob Stockdale was the one player I was hoping to see in this series, and he only came back from injury for the bench in Scotland - so?
Alex Thompson was dropped against Wales and that was a massive mistake - he certainly looks to be 100% lock material

The u20 JWC is starting today. Ireland v Argentina.

Could be a tough opener for ireland

??

That caught me by surprise. The U20 side seem to have a lot of potential to play a sharp attacking game but tend to get buried in physicality thrown back at them. It'll be interesting to see how they go this year.

On tg4 this afternoon.

Yup physicality will be key for Ireland. Im not expecting much but they can play good rugby so you'd never know

Here is the team. The match is at 3:30 Irish time for those interested.

15. Billy Dardis (UCD/Leinster)
14. Ciaran Gaffney (Galwegians/Connacht)
13. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster)
12. Sam Arnold (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
11. Stephen Fitzgerald (Shannon/Munster)
10. Joey Carbery (UCD/Leinster)
9. Nick McCarthy (UCD/Leinster) CAPTAIN
1. Jeremy Loughman (UCD/Leinster)
2. Zack McCall (Queen's University Belfast/Ulster)
3. Oisin Heffernan (Terenure College/Leinster)
4. David O'Connor (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
5. Alex Thompson (Queen's University Belfast/Ulster)
6. Josh Murphy (UCD/Leinster)
7. Rory Moloney (Buccaneers/Connacht)
8. Lorcan Dow (Queen's University Belfast/Ulster)

Replacements:

16. Sean McNulty (UCD/Leinster)
17. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster)
18. Conan O'Donnell (Sligo/NUIG/Connacht)
19. Jack Dwan (UCD/Leinster)
20. Nick Timoney (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
21. Charlie Rock (Old Belvedere/Leinster) *
22. Tomás Quinlan (Cork Constitution/Munster) *
23. Jacob Stockdale (Queen's University Belfast/Ulster)

Ciaran Gaffney has rolled his ankle - Stockdale steps up, Fergal Cleary comes in to the bench.

Won with the last kick of the game. They were well worth the win but need to stop wasting chances.

Hard to know what to make of the game! Ringrose still looks a class apart and not far off being a provincial starter. Forgive me for concentrating on the Ulster contingent but they were the ones I mainly watched.

Ireland started poorly in the set piece with McCall looking as though he had been introduced to the team in the warm up. He seems to be yet another hooker who can carry, tackle, turnover ball but manages to miss all of his own players in the lineout. He probably still finished with better stats than the Argentine hooker who did the opposite to Zac by starting well and then totally lost it as the game went on. I thought Thompson was very good in the set piece, and his tackling and work at the breakdown again makes me think he is one to watch. Josh Murphy too put himself about and despite a couple of penalties was the pick of the loose forwards. Dow was OK but was outplayed by the puma 8.

I had been looking forward to seeing Stockdale in this step up in class, but I think nerves got the better of him. I know he sees himself as a 13 and judging by how uncertain he was under the high ball I can see why. Still he is a big unit and with a bit more confidence could be a handful - he still put in the best kick of the game to the opposition 5 m line. Arnold was very solid in defence but lost the ball in contact a couple of times - again frustrating. Dardis reminds me of Adam Byrne - the expectation is sky high but what's delivered is somewhat less rarefied.

Ross Byrne was undoubtedly a loss however Carberry looks to be a really accomplished place kicker (5/6) but he stands far too deep and has obviously been reading 'the art of tackling' by Ian Humphreys. The previously uncapped Quinlan nailed the last kick to win the game and that took a lot of bottle - I'd like to see him get a bit more gametime or even a start against Scotland.
McCarthy speaks like a seasoned pro but at times his passing is greener than a St Patrick's day pint. So frustrating that there is the basis of a really decent side battling to gel but still by and large remaining individuals.

A few changes for the Ireland U20 (in bold) v Scotland:

15. Billy Dardis (UCD/Leinster)
14. Ciaran Gaffney (Galwegians/Connacht)
13. Garry Ringrose (UCD/Leinster)
12. Sam Arnold (Ballynahinch/Ulster)
11. Stephen Fitzgerald (Shannon/Munster)
10. Joey Carbery (UCD/Leinster)
9. Nick McCarthy (UCD/Leinster) (capt.)
1. Andrew Porter (UCD/Leinster)
2. Sean McNulty (UCD/Leinster)
3. Oisin Heffernan (Terenure College/Leinster)
4. David O’Connor (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
5. Alex Thompson (Queen’s University Belfast/Ulster)
6. Josh Murphy (UCD/Leinster)
7. Conor Oliver (St Mary’s/ Leinster)
8. Lorcan Dow (Queen’s University Belfast/Ulster)
Replacements:
16. Zack McCall (Queen’s University Belfast/Ulster)
17. Liam O’Connor (Cork Constitution /Munster)
18. Conan O’Donnell (Sligo/NUIG/Connacht)
19. Jack Dwan (UCD/Leinster)
20. Nick Timoney (St. Mary’s College/Leinster)
21. Charlie Rock (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
22. Tomás Quinlan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
23. Jacob Stockdale (Queen’s University Belfast/Ulster)

Do they still have the rule that every player has to have had one start before the playoff stage?

The Great Aukster wrote:Do they still have the rule that every player has to have had one start before the playoff stage?

I don't think that rule exists. Some players didn't get a start last year.

I see Scotland have made 8 changes for this. They sent out a weakened team against NZ but are playing their strongest against Ireland. I know why they did it but don't agree with it.

I think the dry conditions will suit Ireland. Scotland beat them in the 6 nations so it won't be easy but the weather is supposed to be very hot tomorrow, about 34 degrees. They need to start taking their chances though.

A number of players impressed me in the first game. I knew nothing about Carbery but he looks very impressive. His kicking from hand and off the ground was outstanding apart from a few mistakes.

Stockdale had an impressive game. Made one or two mistakes but he showed some good touches and is a big unit for a back and is still U19. I wasn't too impressed with Dardis. Its his secnd season with the U20s and I'm still waiting to see what he can do.

O'Connor and Thompson played well. Thompson is a strong lad and another who is U19 I believe.

The set-pieces were a mess but stablised in the second half. McCalls throwing cost him his place. Murphy was the pick of the backrow.

It seems there must be a lot of injuries mounting up Profitius?

McCall looked to have a bad injury coming off in the Scotland game and now McCarthy copped a shoulder injury yesterday. They were already missing Byrne, and Jeremy Loughman went off in the first game, although both Carbery and Porter have done well enough. Given Owens introduction for Fitzgerald (from nowhere), and Moloney starting with no sign of Oliver (who played well v Scots), the treatment table must be busy.

Haven't watched that much so far but Ringrose looks unnervingly like a O'Driscoll circa 1999 (he and Arnold could be the next Maggs/O'Driscoll)  and also our pack seems to be getting shunted all over the place, at least by the scots and baby blacks anyways.

rodders wrote:Haven't watched that much so far but Ringrose looks unnervingly like a O'Driscoll circa 1999 (he and Arnold could be the next Maggs/O'Driscoll)  and also our pack seems to be getting shunted all over the place, at least by the scots and baby blacks anyways.

There were a few scrums they held their own then NZ would just go into beast mode and destroy them. At underage level some teams will have a natural dominance because their players have developed faster, though the Japan team showed how its done

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRpiKmcqfpo

Really hoping Arnold gets plenty of game time next season for Ulster, seems to have the ability to be a top player and can mix his game up

rodders wrote:Haven't watched that much so far but Ringrose looks unnervingly like a O'Driscoll circa 1999 (he and Arnold could be the next Maggs/O'Driscoll)  and also our pack seems to be getting shunted all over the place, at least by the scots and baby blacks anyways.

Ringrose is uncannily like him on and off the pitch right down to his place-kicking Blackrock roots. The question though is that given the professionalism of defences today will Ringrose or indeed would BOD have the same impact now as he did 16 years ago? You wonder given Eoin O'Malley's retirement whether there is a place for anyone under 15 stone in the Centre these days?

We have capped Kyle Eastmond (13st 1)  but there are always questions about his defence (which is good but the lack of mass can be an issue)

Just watched the match. Disappointing from Ireland because I don't think its a vintage NZ team and they won easing up. Ireland actually look a poorly coached side. They were kicking away possession, the 10 wasn't playing flat enough and they don't seem to have any attacking structures.

The Great Aukster wrote:It seems there must be a lot of injuries mounting up Profitius?

McCall looked to have a bad injury coming off in the Scotland game and now McCarthy copped a shoulder injury yesterday. They were already missing Byrne, and Jeremy Loughman went off in the first game, although both Carbery and Porter have done well enough.  Given Owens introduction for Fitzgerald (from nowhere), and Moloney starting with no sign of Oliver (who played well v Scots), the treatment table must be busy.

With the injuries, at least some other players are getting a game. Playing the same team in 3 games in 8 days has proven to be a failure many times.

We got a lonnnnggg way to go.

It's only when you would see this level compete against and largely hold with the best that you'd know the structures are providing a solid foundation into the future at the highest level.

Ireland seniors might be 3rd in the World at the moment, and they might - Might! - do well enough come the WC but it's only a very thin fragile line.  We have so much yet to do if we want to keep up over the next decades.  

U20 is U20.  You can't excuse away the gulf in class from players operating in the same age group.  
Men and boys; which might be excusable in a sense considering where New Zealand is culturally as regards rugby.  But the galling thing for me is that the Irish boys actually believed they had a fighting chance before the game.  Someone is decidedly misinforming them or they themselves are pretty casual in their opinions and observations of the opposition out there at the highest level.
Someone operating at this level administratively - or even a good many of the young players themselves - must take a reality check and start really observing the disparity and acknowledge it.

So unhelpful delusion is the first item on the to-do list.  Ending it.  
And then either getting more serious about rugby at this level or just accepting that Ireland might fall off the radar if we only continue to get serious at senior level and when players are around their mid-twenties.  We're five years late in gestation of players  ... we're always five years late.  That philosophy has to change.

The Great Aukster wrote:

rodders wrote:Haven't watched that much so far but Ringrose looks unnervingly like a O'Driscoll circa 1999 (he and Arnold could be the next Maggs/O'Driscoll)  and also our pack seems to be getting shunted all over the place, at least by the scots and baby blacks anyways.

Ringrose is uncannily like him on and off the pitch right down to his place-kicking Blackrock roots. The question though is that given the professionalism of defences today will Ringrose or indeed would BOD have the same impact now as he did 16 years ago? You wonder given Eoin O'Malley's retirement whether there is a place for anyone under 15 stone in the Centre these days?

That's a very good question and time will tell - I have wondered this and look forward to seeing how he develops. If you look at Jonathon Joseph you can see how effective, speed, acceleration and elusiveness still is and there is a lack of this type of player around who can really open up defenses in the game at the minute. Eastman is mentioned above too but he is pretty powerfully built for his size...

Conrad Smith is still numero uno for me but given the impact and attrition in rugby now you can't look too far ahead. Definitely looks special though...

JJ is 14.4 stone so not a mile off 15, and Eastmond is only 5'7" so has a similar height/weight ratio - Fofana is similar to Joseph - interestingly so are Hanrahan and Madigan.
There are of course guys like Mark Bennett, and our own Stuart Olding under 14 stone, but is it coincidence they are proving to be injury candidates?

BTW it's one reason why I'd rather have my 'footballing' centre at 13 rather than 12, because they tend to be smaller and more prone to the opposition backrow attention while standing at IC. Sam Arnold is over 15 stone now and looks well suited to it. He didn't look out of place at all against Glasgow in the last game of the season.

At 6'1" Ringrose probably needs to bulk up to prosper at senior level, but he certainly has everything else.

The Great Aukster wrote:JJ is 14.4 stone so not a mile off 15, and Eastmond is only 5'7" so has a similar height/weight ratio - Fofana is similar to Joseph - interestingly so are Hanrahan and Madigan.
There are of course guys like Mark Bennett, and our own Stuart Olding under 14 stone, but is it coincidence they are proving to be injury candidates?

BTW it's one reason why I'd rather have my 'footballing' centre at 13 rather than 12, because they tend to be smaller and more prone to the opposition backrow attention while standing at IC. Sam Arnold is over 15 stone now and looks well suited to it. He didn't look out of place at all against Glasgow in the last game of the season.

At 6'1" Ringrose probably needs to bulk up to prosper at senior level, but he certainly has everything else.

No I think its not a coincidence -  I think there is also a tendency with naturally smaller built guys to do more s&c work and sometimes leads to rapid weight gain which can make them even more injury prone - Olding has bulked up a lot for instance - BOD and D'arcy both suffered mid career too when they were push 15 stone for a period.

Agree on having the bigger/more physical guy at 12, even more so with the collisions and monsters in the game these days....

Ringrose needs to be handled carefully - allowed to physically develop and well managed in terms of gametime... guys like Henshaw and McCloskey can step up quickly but some of these other guys need to be managed slower...

SecretFly wrote:We got a lonnnnggg way to go.

It's only when you would see this level compete against and largely hold with the best that you'd know the structures are providing a solid foundation into the future at the highest level.

Ireland seniors might be 3rd in the World at the moment, and they might - Might! - do well enough come the WC but it's only a very thin fragile line.  We have so much yet to do if we want to keep up over the next decades.  

U20 is U20.  You can't excuse away the gulf in class from players operating in the same age group.  
Men and boys; which might be excusable in a sense considering where New Zealand is culturally as regards rugby.  But the galling thing for me is that the Irish boys actually believed they had a fighting chance before the game.  Someone is decidedly misinforming them or they themselves are pretty casual in their opinions and observations of the opposition out there at the highest level.
Someone operating at this level administratively - or even a good many of the young players themselves - must take a reality check and start really observing the disparity and acknowledge it.

So unhelpful delusion is the first item on the to-do list.  Ending it.  
And then either getting more serious about rugby at this level or just accepting that Ireland might fall off the radar if we only continue to get serious at senior level and when players are around their mid-twenties.  We're five years late in gestation of players  ... we're always five years late.  That philosophy has to change.

As disappointing as the result is, I don't know if I would be quick to change much to be honest. If the IRFU were to get serious about U20s rugby it would mean having more gym monkeys at an earlier age. That would create a type of rat race to get bigger and the technically better players might lose out. What they can do more is get more players from the club/youths instead of relying on schools. Broaden the player base.


Ireland are starting to produce a nice conveyor belt of players nowadays so theres no panic. In 2 years time you'll have a 23 year old Henshaw, a 22 year old Ringrose and a 20 year old Arnold as center options (along with others). Thats one quality center being produced per year which is nice considering it was just BOD and D'Arcy for over a decade with a big drop off.

Remember the days of Hayes and Horan having to play every game. Well there are props being produced every year now. Loosehead is very strong and tightheads are coming through.

At 10 we went from David Humph to ROG to Sexton and thats it. In 2 years time Sexton will be challenged by Jackson, Hanrahan, Ross Byrne and maybe others.

Heaslip has remained unchallenged at 8 for years but now Jack O'Donoghue and Jack Conan are coming through (and Stander but thats a different matter) and are rated.

Rob kearney has owned the fullback position since Dempsey retired, with no challengers but in a year or two he'll have plenty of competition there. Cian Kelleher, Ciaran Gaffney etc.

Second row stocks are thin enough at present but I'm confident there are second rows coming through to fill the POC gap. Donnacha Ryan will be around a few years, Toner is young and theres also a young Mr Henderson. Munster academy player John Madigan is a great prospect and no doubt others will emerge.

Hooker is the main problem position from what I see. Best is getting on a bit, Cronin is mainly an impact player and Mike Sherry is struggling to get back playing. Though a solid player, I don't think Casey is the answer, same goes for Herring and Struass. Maybe Brian Byrne in Leinster but he his size might be an issue.

profitius wrote:
Hooker is the main problem position from what I see. Best is getting on a bit, Cronin is mainly an impact player and Mike Sherry is struggling to get back playing. Though a solid player, I don't think Casey is the answer, same goes for Herring and Struass. Maybe Brian Byrne in Leinster but he his size might be an issue.

It's disappointing Ulster didn't fight harder to keep Niall Annett. All four provinces should be keeping an interested eye on how he goes with Worcester in the Premiership next season.

It's not a vintage u20 team by any means but there are still a few cracking prospects such as Ringrose, Byrne and Arnold. Also Porter and O'Donnell are eligeble next year and Porter more than held his own against Faegerson (who has played Pro 12 rugby).

All and all it's been a good campaing thus far and a win against the Welsh will see the campaign be a sucess. Also some of the lads will develope later. For instance Murray didn't even start for his u20s team.

I much preferred Loughman to Porter but maybe the haircut is influencing me? O'Donnell has looked good (especially his attitude).

Annett is captaincy material but it will be interesting to see where he sits in the WW pecking order now Creevy has gone.