Will Biggar end Halfpenny's international career...

I'm a very big fan of Halfpenny. His kicking to me is sublime and if allowed to play his game is a tremendous attacking weapon...

However, I'm also a fan of Dan Biggar and I don't think there is any other 10 in Wales at the moment that deserves the fly half spot. But if Mr G., selects Biggar at 10, does he go with Halfpenny to start at 15 or with the bigger Liam Williams at 15 as Biggar is more than capable of he place kicking...

So as the title says .... Do you think Biggar at 10 will bring to an end Halfpenny's international career...

I think it could.. Not straight away, but I can see Halfpenny being moved to the bench, to cover wings and full back and Kicking if Biggar is lost to injury.

A real pity, as Halfpenny is a true talent...

Very poor and pointless article if I'm honest. It seems to suggest that Halfpenny at 15 can only kick at goal and also fails to recognise his versatility. It's obvious you haven't watched rugby for very long.

I'd argue that Liam Williams offers a better running threat than Leigh Halfpenny , whilst Leigh is obviously positionally fantastic and has a monster of a goal he's attacking game has fell off in the last 12 months.

If i was a defence coach at International level i'd be more worried about a running 15 that a someone who was first picked because of his right boot.

Pretty stupid options really to choose from.

If Biggar starts and kicks he doesn't have the distance that Halfpenny offers so if both start then they could alternate kicking.

If Liam Williams starts then Halfpenny could easily slot into the one of the wing positions and give you an option to the brawn of North and Cuthbert.

I dont think Biggar will end Halfpenny career at all.

Halfpenny is the better all round player than Biggar.

I thought halfpenny looked better than Liam Williams today, his defence stopped Robinson from scoring a try that most fullbacks would not have had the skill to prevent.

Pardon my ignorance, but how does the selection of a different 10 influence the player selection at 15, unless you are suggesting Halfpenny is only in the team because of his goal kicking and he brings nothing else to the team?

That is what is being suggested

Not quite. Hypothetically, if Halfpenny is a very good fullback and an excellent kicker he might get selected over a better fullback who doesn't kick if you don't have another reliable kicker in the team.

Biltong wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but how does the selection of a different 10 influence the player selection at 15, unless you are suggesting Halfpenny is only in the team because of his goal kicking and he brings nothing else to the team?

I'd say Halfpenny can naturally add a lot more than kicking - but his kicking success rate is enough in itself to make his name appear large in a teamsheet of a team that wants to win!  Sometimes you have to be pragmatic and simply say that point scoring is point scoring and it can win games.  So even if Halfpenny was naturally limited in everything except consistent kicking, he'd still be considered a lucrative option to carry in a team until his clinical boot is required.

I think at times Halfpenny has shown what he can do in an all round roll if released and if surrounded by the right gameplan - last game for the Lions in Australia comes to mind.  

But I do think his role (rather than his natural skill set) has been controlled by Gatland who does kinda reduce Halfpenny's role to sitting back in his pocket for backdoor safety, waiting for the time he takes off his cap for the kicks the forwards have won.  I think it is a limited roll he plays in the Welsh team - but due to Gatland tactics rather than Halfpenny's own limitations.

Biltong wrote:Pardon my ignorance, but how does the selection of a different 10 influence the player selection at 15, unless you are suggesting Halfpenny is only in the team because of his goal kicking and he brings nothing else to the team?

It's quite simple really. If Gatland picks Priestland at 10, then he HAS to pick another goal kicker, regardless of whether he has all the attributes, or just one.
That is how the selection of our 10, has influenced the selection of our fullback.

It's up to Halfpenny now, to prove his worth as an all round player, because his goal kicking isn't required with Biggar fit.

Wow, this seems to have upset some... So here's my right to reply...

1. @Saint - Poor pointless article in you opinion. That's fair enough, I respect your right to your opinion. However, how its obvious that I've not watched rugby for very long is your assumption not a fact, hence not obvious. In fact, I'm the wrong side of 50 and have been interested in rugby since I played my first game at the age of 5 (the good old days of mini rugby when H&S didn't state you where too young). So I have watched the game for over 47 years... You may not agree with the point I was trying to pick up on (more on that later) but don't throw pointless silly immature statements questioning my commitment to this game.

2. @Bedford - Stupid options... I'd say limited options... Agree re-looking at them the qualifying statements seem to lose the point I was trying to get at. But that;s just the benefit of hind-sight.

3. @All - Guys.. This was more around the general make up of the side... Let me first say, to answer Biltong's point. I believe Halfpenny is FAR MORE than just a place kicker. He has showed this so many times in the past and especially during the 3rd Lions test. However, questions have to be asked on whether the coaching (IMO) is restricting his play. BUT, I believe he is one of the best full backs around at the moment. His defensive play is outstanding. He is one player who can be relied on being there to stop opponents scoring, with his ability to cover the his line being outstanding. He has saved Wales from defeat on several occasions arriving at pace from nowhere to make try saving tackles. Take last test against the Boks (where he didn't play) where Liam "shoulder charged" and hence gave away the penalty try. I don't think Halfpenny would have done that.

So to the point I was trying to make...

My point was down to selection. I think Halfpenny is an outstanding full back and would be the first name on the team sheet for me. However, Liam Williams is also a very good full back. A little immature at times, but that will develop with experience. Who do you pick ? Well as said by Higher_Ground and a few others. If Gatland picks Preistland, then you have to cover the kicking and Halfpenny is a shoe in... However, if Biggar is selected then will Halfpenny be the kicker. If not, then although Halfpenny is still a very good fullback, you do have other options to you. It is then no longer as simple, and you have to question, with Halfpenny in France, does he start to loose out on selection...

Remember Lee Byrne was the "best thing" going at one point. Went to France, hasn't seen a Welsh shirt since... Whilst Priestland has the 10 shirt, Gatland wont forget about Halfpenny as, like it or not, games are decided by the kicker. If he has a reliable kicker (Biggar) then Halfpenny's grip on the Welsh shirt is loosened... Hence "Will Biggar end Halfpenny's international career..." (I accept the title is "newspaper" like...).

Made my reply... going to let thread die now, as I think it took a different direction to that I had hoped...

i think gatland may look at williams as a bit of a liability. i have never seen a full back to be sin binned as much as williams.

tends to have a brain fart every now and again

No9 wrote:Wow, this seems to have upset some... So here's my right to reply...

1. @Saint - Poor pointless article in you opinion. That's fair enough, I respect your right to your opinion. However, how its obvious that I've not watched rugby for very long is your assumption not a fact, hence not obvious. In fact, I'm the wrong side of 50 and have been interested in rugby since I played my first game at the age of 5 (the good old days of mini rugby when H&S didn't state you where too young). So I have watched the game for over 47 years... You may not agree with the point I was trying to pick up on (more on that later) but don't throw pointless silly immature statements questioning my commitment to this game.

2. @Bedford - Stupid options... I'd say limited options... Agree re-looking at them the qualifying statements seem to lose the point I was trying to get at. But that;s just the benefit of hind-sight.

3. @All - Guys.. This was more around the general make up of the side... Let me first say, to answer Biltong's point. I believe Halfpenny is FAR MORE than just a place kicker. He has showed this so many times in the past and especially during the 3rd Lions test. However, questions have to be asked on whether the coaching (IMO) is restricting his play. BUT, I believe he is one of the best full backs around at the moment. His defensive play is outstanding. He is one player who can be relied on being there to stop opponents scoring, with his ability to cover the his line being outstanding. He has saved Wales from defeat on several occasions arriving at pace from nowhere to make try saving tackles. Take last test against the Boks (where he didn't play) where Liam "shoulder charged" and hence gave away the penalty try. I don't think Halfpenny would have done that.  

So to the point I was trying to make...

My point was down to selection. I think Halfpenny is an outstanding full back and would be the first name on the team sheet for me. However, Liam Williams is also a very good full back. A little immature at times, but that will develop with experience. Who do you pick ? Well as said by Higher_Ground and a few others. If Gatland picks Preistland, then you have to cover the kicking and Halfpenny is a shoe in... However, if Biggar is selected then will Halfpenny be the kicker. If not, then although Halfpenny is still a very good fullback, you do have other options to you. It is then no longer as simple, and you have to question, with Halfpenny in France, does he start to loose out on selection...

Remember Lee Byrne was the "best thing" going at one point. Went to France, hasn't seen a Welsh shirt since... Whilst Priestland has the 10 shirt, Gatland wont forget about Halfpenny as, like it or not, games are decided by the kicker. If he has a reliable kicker (Biggar) then Halfpenny's grip on the Welsh shirt is loosened... Hence "Will Biggar end Halfpenny's international career..." (I accept the title is "newspaper" like...).

Made my reply... going to let thread die now, as I think it took a different direction to that I had hoped...

Liam Williams should never have had to do that though, George North should have tackled Peiterson before he even got inside the 22, but he was just brushed off, now I have seen George North and he is a very big lad, he just seems to be a big baby when it come's to tackling people, if he could brush up on his defence, he would be some player.

no9 wrote: I believe Halfpenny is FAR MORE than just a place kicker. He has showed this so many times in the past and especially during the 3rd Lions test. However, questions have to be asked on whether the coaching (IMO) is restricting his play.

My question to you is if the coaching staff is limiting Halfpenny's play, won't the same reasoning apply to Williams if he is selected?

Gatland would want him to fit the same gameplan as he expects of Halfpenny?

Biltong wrote:

no9 wrote: I believe Halfpenny is FAR MORE than just a place kicker. He has showed this so many times in the past and especially during the 3rd Lions test. However, questions have to be asked on whether the coaching (IMO) is restricting his play.

My question to you is if the coaching staff is limiting Halfpenny's play, won't the same reasoning apply to Williams if he is selected?

Gatland would want him to fit the same gameplan as he expects of Halfpenny?

The worrying thing is, players like Liam Williams and Dan Biggar can think for themselves, and I mean that as a compliment, Gatland likes players who stick to HIS game plan and do not alter, even if it means the same as banging your head against a wall when it is not working, players like Biggar and Williams, if they see things are not going to plan, they will try something different, Gatland does not like players who do this, that is why I am worrying that he will stick with players like Preistland, Halfpenny, Phillips, it is so refreshing to see a full back who will run, rather than kick, Liam Williams does not take a tackle as an answer.

The Saint wrote:Very poor and pointless article if I'm honest. It seems to suggest that Halfpenny at 15 can only kick at goal and also fails to recognise his versatility. It's obvious you haven't watched rugby for very long.

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:

no9 wrote: I believe Halfpenny is FAR MORE than just a place kicker. He has showed this so many times in the past and especially during the 3rd Lions test. However, questions have to be asked on whether the coaching (IMO) is restricting his play.

My question to you is if the coaching staff is limiting Halfpenny's play, won't the same reasoning apply to Williams if he is selected?

Gatland would want him to fit the same gameplan as he expects of Halfpenny?

The worrying thing is, players like Liam Williams and Dan Biggar can think for themselves, and I mean that as a compliment, Gatland likes players who stick to HIS game plan and do not alter, even if it means the same as banging your head against a wall when it is not working, players like Biggar and Williams, if they see things are not going to plan, they will try something different, Gatland does not like players who do this, that is why I am worrying that he will stick with players like Preistland, Halfpenny, Phillips, it is so refreshing to see a full back who will run, rather than kick, Liam Williams does not take a tackle as an answer.

If Gatland prefers players to stick to his plan come hell or high water, then this discussion is moot, isn't it?

Unless Gatland decides to evolve the Welsh game plan, then there is no need for changing the guard.

We have been fighting with Heyneke Meyer in regards to the same situation where it seems he is prepared to change the plan, but then the necessity of getting rid of players who cannot think for themselves is crucial to the success of his plans.

The truth of the matter is you select horses for courses, and whether it be South Africa or Wales, the plan will dictate the players selected.

Biltong wrote:

no9 wrote: I believe Halfpenny is FAR MORE than just a place kicker. He has showed this so many times in the past and especially during the 3rd Lions test. However, questions have to be asked on whether the coaching (IMO) is restricting his play.

My question to you is if the coaching staff is limiting Halfpenny's play, won't the same reasoning apply to Williams if he is selected?

Gatland would want him to fit the same gameplan as he expects of Halfpenny?

Now there's the point I was trying to hint at.  Ireland have done a little of this kinda thing too - and I'm sure fans of other nations have perhaps seen a bit of it happen in their own nations at one time or another over the years; - that is to say, the belief that a certain player's unique and distinct gifts might better suit a position in the International squad more than a present incumbent, without fully acknowledging and accepting that it's often the coach and his tactics that creates much of what a player might do in an International shirt in the first place

An Irish example.  When Kidney coached Ireland and O'Gara was still our first choice 10, the results were turning in poor and many fans began to question why Kidney stuck with a player who had an allegedly limited skillset and a dangerous 'kick-away' sensibility when things got tight.  The fans didn't like that O'Gara always seemed to simply kick the ball back at the opposition when pressure came onto his side.  Some felt the easy answer was to get rid of the aging O'Gara and just give the main role to the apprentice, Sexton - who when playing for Leinster was a much more resolute and running/creative 10.  However, I always argued that it wasn't O'Gara that was the issue, it was the tactics imposed by Kidney and his coaching crew that was the issue, and that those tactics wouldn't change with Sexton at 10.  And they didn't.  Sexton too played to the Kidney era 'gameplan' and kicked away tons of ball right at opposition sides that loved to run free-ball back at us.
It was only when Schmidt changed the tactics that Sexton played more like the player he proved himself to be at Provincial level.  But the change of coach changed the tactics not the change of one player for another. Halfpenny plays a role dictated to him by the coach. A new player at 15 or Biggar at 10 won't necessarily change the texture of what Gatland requires of his 10 or his 15.

Interesting point made by Bilt and reply by LD...

The thing is, Gats likes his big wingers, but I do think he has confidence in Cuthbert and Norths defence, which is why Halfpenny is coached as the last line of defence and hence limits his attacking options. Could be why Gats released the reigns of Halpenny in the 3rd test, with Bowe on the wing instead of Cuthbert...but that's only a guess...

As for Liam being coached the same. It assumes, as LD said, that Liam listens, which I'm not sure he does....

No9 wrote:Interesting point made by Bilt and reply by LD...

The thing is, Gats likes his big wingers, but I do think he has confidence in Cuthbert and Norths defence, which is why Halfpenny is coached as the last line of defence and hence limits his attacking options. Could be why Gats released the reigns of Halpenny in the 3rd test, with Bowe on the wing instead of Cuthbert...but that's only a guess...

As for Liam being coached the same. It assumes, as LD said, that Liam listens, which I'm not sure he does....

That is a bit of a cop out No9.

WIll Gatland allow players that doesn't follow his game plan?

Biltong wrote:

No9 wrote:Interesting point made by Bilt and reply by LD...

The thing is, Gats likes his big wingers, but I do think he has confidence in Cuthbert and Norths defence, which is why Halfpenny is coached as the last line of defence and hence limits his attacking options. Could be why Gats released the reigns of Halpenny in the 3rd test, with Bowe on the wing instead of Cuthbert...but that's only a guess...

As for Liam being coached the same. It assumes, as LD said, that Liam listens, which I'm not sure he does....  

That is a bit of a cop out No9.

WIll Gatland allow players that doesn't follow his game plan?

No he will not, and that is the worry, he will keep picking his YES men, like Rhys Preistland.

LordDowlais wrote:

Biltong wrote:

No9 wrote:Interesting point made by Bilt and reply by LD...

The thing is, Gats likes his big wingers, but I do think he has confidence in Cuthbert and Norths defence, which is why Halfpenny is coached as the last line of defence and hence limits his attacking options. Could be why Gats released the reigns of Halpenny in the 3rd test, with Bowe on the wing instead of Cuthbert...but that's only a guess...

As for Liam being coached the same. It assumes, as LD said, that Liam listens, which I'm not sure he does....  

That is a bit of a cop out No9.

WIll Gatland allow players that doesn't follow his game plan?

No he will not, and that is the worry, he will keep picking his YES men, like Rhys Preistland.

Bilt, not a cop out, just impossible to answer as I've not got Gatlands phone number to ask him...

LD, I suspect you are right, but again, there's no way for us to know for sure is there... We just have to wait and see... Gatland hasn't done us too badly so far, so, although at times I may wonder about selection, I'm prepared to stick with it for the time on the belief Gats knows better than I do.

I'm not sure that Rhys is a 'yes man', I think him not signing his central contract would indicate that. And to be fair I would say that only one of the regular welsh squad could be classed as a 'yes man', but anyway.

To suggest that Liam Williams doesn't follow the plan is a bit unfair. I think he tends to stick to the tactics that the team are using, however he is also very protective of HIS try line, HIS team mates etc, and can get a bit over zealous protecting either (but he can get polaxed in the air, and not raise a finger to the person who did it).

At this moment in time, I would have Biggar at fly half and Liam at fullback, with Halfpenny on the bench (maybe wing), purely to reward the players that are putting in performances week in week out. Also it would send a strong message out about playing at home in order to get selected.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I'm not sure that Rhys is a 'yes man', I think him not signing his central contract would indicate that.  And to be fair I would say that only one of the regular welsh squad could be classed as a 'yes man', but anyway.

To suggest that Liam Williams doesn't follow the plan is a bit unfair.  I think he tends to stick to the tactics that the team are using, however he is also very protective of HIS try line, HIS team mates etc, and can get a bit over zealous protecting either (but he can get polaxed in the air, and not raise a finger to the person who did it).

At this moment in time, I would have Biggar at fly half and Liam at fullback, with Halfpenny on the bench (maybe wing), purely to reward the players that are putting in performances week in week out.  Also it would send a strong message out about playing at home in order to get selected.

SS, it is not about players who will go rogue, like we had under Gareth Davie's tenure, what I mean are, players who will look at what is infront of them, and thinking that the tactics are not working, so they will try something else, for me going against the grain can sometimes be a good thing, but Gatland likes players who keep banging their heads against the wall, how many times have we seen the bish,bash, bosh style being used, even when it is clear that it isn't working ? Liam Williams and Dan Biggar will do something dofferent, and it is refreshing to see, it's just that Gatland does not see it that way.

Why would any coach pick 'No' men..or men who said 'I'll play by ear' or players who said 'I'll play my own way and by instinct'.

Why would any self respecting coach pick players who told him they'd go against tactics whenever it suited them?

Yes, wise coaches give leverage and can suggest to players that they are the ones playing and that if there is something on that doesn't fully fit in with tactics then still by all means go for it.... but that's still a coach allowing/encouraging instinct and self determination - it's not players simply telling the coach that they are free-agents in the way they choose to play the games.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I'm not sure that Rhys is a 'yes man', I think him not signing his central contract would indicate that.  And to be fair I would say that only one of the regular welsh squad could be classed as a 'yes man', but anyway.

To suggest that Liam Williams doesn't follow the plan is a bit unfair.  I think he tends to stick to the tactics that the team are using, however he is also very protective of HIS try line, HIS team mates etc, and can get a bit over zealous protecting either (but he can get polaxed in the air, and not raise a finger to the person who did it).

At this moment in time, I would have Biggar at fly half and Liam at fullback, with Halfpenny on the bench (maybe wing), purely to reward the players that are putting in performances week in week out.  Also it would send a strong message out about playing at home in order to get selected.

Now I agree with that... Biggar (10), Liam (15) and Halfpenny on the wing (14) with Cuthbert on the bench (or out of the game squad), as Cuthbert is doing nothing at present...

SecretFly wrote:Why would any coach pick 'No' men..or men who said 'I'll play by ear' or players who said 'I'll play my own way and by instinct'.

Why would any self respecting coach pick players who told him they'd go against tactics whenever it suited them?

Yes, wise coaches give leverage and can suggest to players that they are the ones playing and that if there is something on that doesn't fully fit in with tactics then still by all means go for it.... but that's still a coach allowing/encouraging instinct and self determination - it's not players simply telling the coach that they are free-agents in the way they choose to play the games.

Not sure anyone ever said this... A coaches job is to gel the team, nurture talent, etc... But surely we don't want coaches to coach the any natural playing ability out of the player. Its a team sport and the coach looks at the bigger team picture, but individual talent needs to be nurtured and developed. The trick is the balance, which is why Gatland (and other coaches) earn the big bucks... Personally, on the whole, Gatland and his team have got it right more than wrong. But going back to Halfpenny, as this is where this thread has come from. I think Halfpenny is held back, because Gatland is concerned more about defense from counter attacks, and hence wants Halfpenny holding back. But if Halfpenny was at 14 and Liam at 15, I think you'd see Halfpenny attack far more, and reckon he'd be a better option than Cuthbert on the wing, as Halfpenny can defend as well...

Lord, Gats seemed to like Shane. And to be fair he was pretty poor at sticking to the plan, unless the plan was let Shane show off and the rest off you just support him if/when he fupps up.

Also I am not too sure Biggar (or even Sanjay) is as much of a free thinker that he is made out to be. He tends to play to the Ospreys system imo.

LordDowlais wrote:

No9 wrote:Wow, this seems to have upset some... So here's my right to reply...

1. @Saint - Poor pointless article in you opinion. That's fair enough, I respect your right to your opinion. However, how its obvious that I've not watched rugby for very long is your assumption not a fact, hence not obvious. In fact, I'm the wrong side of 50 and have been interested in rugby since I played my first game at the age of 5 (the good old days of mini rugby when H&S didn't state you where too young). So I have watched the game for over 47 years... You may not agree with the point I was trying to pick up on (more on that later) but don't throw pointless silly immature statements questioning my commitment to this game.

2. @Bedford - Stupid options... I'd say limited options... Agree re-looking at them the qualifying statements seem to lose the point I was trying to get at. But that;s just the benefit of hind-sight.

3. @All - Guys.. This was more around the general make up of the side... Let me first say, to answer Biltong's point. I believe Halfpenny is FAR MORE than just a place kicker. He has showed this so many times in the past and especially during the 3rd Lions test. However, questions have to be asked on whether the coaching (IMO) is restricting his play. BUT, I believe he is one of the best full backs around at the moment. His defensive play is outstanding. He is one player who can be relied on being there to stop opponents scoring, with his ability to cover the his line being outstanding. He has saved Wales from defeat on several occasions arriving at pace from nowhere to make try saving tackles. Take last test against the Boks (where he didn't play) where Liam "shoulder charged" and hence gave away the penalty try. I don't think Halfpenny would have done that.  

So to the point I was trying to make...

My point was down to selection. I think Halfpenny is an outstanding full back and would be the first name on the team sheet for me. However, Liam Williams is also a very good full back. A little immature at times, but that will develop with experience. Who do you pick ? Well as said by Higher_Ground and a few others. If Gatland picks Preistland, then you have to cover the kicking and Halfpenny is a shoe in... However, if Biggar is selected then will Halfpenny be the kicker. If not, then although Halfpenny is still a very good fullback, you do have other options to you. It is then no longer as simple, and you have to question, with Halfpenny in France, does he start to loose out on selection...

Remember Lee Byrne was the "best thing" going at one point. Went to France, hasn't seen a Welsh shirt since... Whilst Priestland has the 10 shirt, Gatland wont forget about Halfpenny as, like it or not, games are decided by the kicker. If he has a reliable kicker (Biggar) then Halfpenny's grip on the Welsh shirt is loosened... Hence "Will Biggar end Halfpenny's international career..." (I accept the title is "newspaper" like...).

Made my reply... going to let thread die now, as I think it took a different direction to that I had hoped...

Liam Williams should never have had to do that though, George North should have tackled Peiterson before he even got inside the 22, but he was just brushed off, now I have seen George North and he is a very big lad, he just seems to be a big baby when it come's to tackling people, if he could brush up on his defence, he would be some player.

LD,

Thank the lord and yippidy do dah day, someone else on my wave length. I have said right from the off that it seemed North got off blameless for that incident BUT if he had done his job in the first place then Williams wouldn't have had to do what he done but St George seems untouchable at the moment.

No9 wrote:

1. @Saint - Poor pointless article in you opinion. That's fair enough, I respect your right to your opinion. However, how its obvious that I've not watched rugby for very long is your assumption not a fact, hence not obvious. In fact, I'm the wrong side of 50 and have been interested in rugby since I played my first game at the age of 5 (the good old days of mini rugby when H&S didn't state you where too young). So I have watched the game for over 47 years... You may not agree with the point I was trying to pick up on (more on that later) but don't throw pointless silly immature statements questioning my commitment to this game.

If I picked the team then I have all positions sewn up. The only jersey up in the air is 14, contested atm, between Cuthbert and Amos (who's leading the charge IMO). Williams is by far our best 15 if domestic form is anything to go by. If Halfpenny doesn't make the starting team, then it's not because a goal-kicker kept him out. It's because he didn't show good enough form to oust Williams during his limited game time at Toulon. Halfpenny could still start, but it would be on the wing (14). Right now, I'd say bench is most likely. If you know as much as you think you do, then you wouldn't feel the need to ask such a ridiculous question.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

The Saint wrote:Very poor and pointless article if I'm honest. It seems to suggest that Halfpenny at 15 can only kick at goal and also fails to recognise his versatility. It's obvious you haven't watched rugby for very long.

FES you seem to be following me around too much for my liking as of late, posting silly emoji's and generally just not offering any debate. Are you still upset because I don't rate Cotter, or is there something else I should know?

The Saint wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

The Saint wrote:Very poor and pointless article if I'm honest. It seems to suggest that Halfpenny at 15 can only kick at goal and also fails to recognise his versatility. It's obvious you haven't watched rugby for very long.

FES you seem to be following me around too much for my liking as of late, posting silly emoji's and generally just not offering any debate. Are you still upset because I don't rate Cotter, or is there something else I should know?

The Saint wrote:

No9 wrote:

1. @Saint - Poor pointless article in you opinion. That's fair enough, I respect your right to your opinion. However, how its obvious that I've not watched rugby for very long is your assumption not a fact, hence not obvious. In fact, I'm the wrong side of 50 and have been interested in rugby since I played my first game at the age of 5 (the good old days of mini rugby when H&S didn't state you where too young). So I have watched the game for over 47 years... You may not agree with the point I was trying to pick up on (more on that later) but don't throw pointless silly immature statements questioning my commitment to this game.

If I picked the team then I have all positions sewn up. The only jersey up in the air is 14, contested atm, between Cuthbert and Amos (who's leading the charge IMO). Williams is by far our best 15 if domestic form is anything to go by. If Halfpenny doesn't make the starting team, then it's not because a goal-kicker kept him out. It's because he didn't show good enough form to oust Williams during his limited game time at Toulon. Halfpenny could still start, but it would be on the wing (14). Right now, I'd say bench is most likely. If you know as much as you think you do, then you wouldn't feel the need to ask such a ridiculous question.

Your reply (in red) has NOTHING to do with your original post that questioned "how long" I've been following rugby. The final bit (in blue) is again something completely made up...  On what grounds do you feel qualified to say "If you know as much as you think you do...". What a completely arrogant comment to make, which probably says more for your ignorance than my "ridiculous question".

And on that, please allow me to treat you with the contempt I feel you deserve....

bedfordwelsh wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No9 wrote:Wow, this seems to have upset some... So here's my right to reply...

1. @Saint - Poor pointless article in you opinion. That's fair enough, I respect your right to your opinion. However, how its obvious that I've not watched rugby for very long is your assumption not a fact, hence not obvious. In fact, I'm the wrong side of 50 and have been interested in rugby since I played my first game at the age of 5 (the good old days of mini rugby when H&S didn't state you where too young). So I have watched the game for over 47 years... You may not agree with the point I was trying to pick up on (more on that later) but don't throw pointless silly immature statements questioning my commitment to this game.

2. @Bedford - Stupid options... I'd say limited options... Agree re-looking at them the qualifying statements seem to lose the point I was trying to get at. But that;s just the benefit of hind-sight.

3. @All - Guys.. This was more around the general make up of the side... Let me first say, to answer Biltong's point. I believe Halfpenny is FAR MORE than just a place kicker. He has showed this so many times in the past and especially during the 3rd Lions test. However, questions have to be asked on whether the coaching (IMO) is restricting his play. BUT, I believe he is one of the best full backs around at the moment. His defensive play is outstanding. He is one player who can be relied on being there to stop opponents scoring, with his ability to cover the his line being outstanding. He has saved Wales from defeat on several occasions arriving at pace from nowhere to make try saving tackles. Take last test against the Boks (where he didn't play) where Liam "shoulder charged" and hence gave away the penalty try. I don't think Halfpenny would have done that.  

So to the point I was trying to make...

My point was down to selection. I think Halfpenny is an outstanding full back and would be the first name on the team sheet for me. However, Liam Williams is also a very good full back. A little immature at times, but that will develop with experience. Who do you pick ? Well as said by Higher_Ground and a few others. If Gatland picks Preistland, then you have to cover the kicking and Halfpenny is a shoe in... However, if Biggar is selected then will Halfpenny be the kicker. If not, then although Halfpenny is still a very good fullback, you do have other options to you. It is then no longer as simple, and you have to question, with Halfpenny in France, does he start to loose out on selection...

Remember Lee Byrne was the "best thing" going at one point. Went to France, hasn't seen a Welsh shirt since... Whilst Priestland has the 10 shirt, Gatland wont forget about Halfpenny as, like it or not, games are decided by the kicker. If he has a reliable kicker (Biggar) then Halfpenny's grip on the Welsh shirt is loosened... Hence "Will Biggar end Halfpenny's international career..." (I accept the title is "newspaper" like...).

Made my reply... going to let thread die now, as I think it took a different direction to that I had hoped...

Liam Williams should never have had to do that though, George North should have tackled Peiterson before he even got inside the 22, but he was just brushed off, now I have seen George North and he is a very big lad, he just seems to be a big baby when it come's to tackling people, if he could brush up on his defence, he would be some player.

LD,

Thank the lord and yippidy do dah day, someone else on my wave length.  I have said right from the off that it seemed North got off blameless for that incident BUT if he had done his job in the first place then Williams wouldn't have had to do what he done but St George seems untouchable at the moment.

BW, I would not pick North or Cuthbert for Wales anymore until they learn how to defend, I would have Halfpenny on one wing, and Eli Walker or Halam Amos on the other.

I wouldn't be to upset if they played as they both have a good strike rate but want has rely riled me is that North seems above criticism by some yet Cuthbert gets slated from all corners for his defence. They are both as bad as each other in that respect.

I do think we need a different approach to the brawn so maybe one of them on one wing then either Amos, Halfpenny or Walker (in that order) on other wing.

Bedford, I think with North he tends to get less flak for being defensively poor because he does put some effort in defensively, where as Cuthbert appears to just be scared of attempting to tackle. But like you say neither really punch their weight defensively.

I can see your point regarding the fact that North and Cuthbert are very similar wingers, however I am not too sure what a smaller winger like Amos, Walker or Halfpenny would offer as an alternative, as both the big boys have speed, the ability to side step etc. Its not like the days of having Matthew Robinson there because we was fast and could run in a straight line into/through people.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Bedford, I think with North he tends to get less flak for being defensively poor because he does put some effort in defensively, where as Cuthbert appears to just be scared of attempting to tackle.  But like you say neither really punch their weight defensively.

I can see your point regarding the fact that North and Cuthbert are very similar wingers, however I am not too sure what a smaller winger like Amos, Walker or Halfpenny would offer as an alternative, as both the big boys have speed, the ability to side step etc.  Its not like the days of having Matthew Robinson there because we was fast and could run in a straight line into/through people.

From an outsider's point of view North and Cuthburt have good top speed, but they can take a while getting there- hence being able to negate them if you can tackle them early. Smaller runners can get up to speed faster - e.g. make something out of nothing. They also make for contrasting threats.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Bedford, I think with North he tends to get less flak for being defensively poor because he does put some effort in defensively, where as Cuthbert appears to just be scared of attempting to tackle.  But like you say neither really punch their weight defensively.

I can see your point regarding the fact that North and Cuthbert are very similar wingers, however I am not too sure what a smaller winger like Amos, Walker or Halfpenny would offer as an alternative, as both the big boys have speed, the ability to side step etc.  Its not like the days of having Matthew Robinson there because we was fast and could run in a straight line into/through people.

I think Cuthbert backs himself more than North but that said North has been in good form attack wise for Saints so far. I think we all realise we have to change our tactics as its all bosh bosh bosh what with Roberts, JD, North and Cuthbert, if Gatland wants to continue that then its his call BUT we have to find a plan B.

Now whether that be someone like Amos Halfpenny or Walker on the wing with maybe someone a bit more subtle like Sc Williams or Allen in the centre we have to have that option.

Both have exceptionally good boots. As far as I'm aware, Biggar has never been considered on par with Halfpenny in terms of attacking potency. Yet the latter doesn't make use of it enough to make this a decisive factor.

With both on the field in their respective positions, you have a guaranteed kicking replacement if one gets injured. Liam Williams actually seems to try for the counter-attack more often than Halfpenny, though his discipline is so poor he's still a distinctive 2nd choice in my books.

Knowsit17 wrote:Both have exceptionally good boots. As far as I'm aware, Biggar has never been considered on par with Halfpenny in terms of attacking potency. Yet the latter doesn't make use of it enough to make this a decisive factor.

With both on the field in their respective positions, you have a guaranteed kicking replacement if one gets injured. Liam Williams actually seems to try for the counter-attack more often than Halfpenny, though his discipline is so poor he's still a distinctive 2nd choice in my books.

Excellent Post Knowsit, I agree with all of that, weren't they both in the same Wales U20 team and Leigh had the kicking duties back then, and as for Liam he is a disaster waiting to happen, and they have in some instances, even though some have said it was not his fault for the SA defeat, and I agree with that point of view, it was George's fault IMO. I believe it was the same person within the Os set up allowed both of these players to leave our academy and sign for the Blues and Scarlets respectively.

Wayne, I though Sanj was one of those ignored by the academies? He does have a bad rep, but also brings passion which the national side sometimes lack

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne, I though Sanj was one of those ignored by the academies?   He does have a bad rep, but also brings passion which the national side sometimes lack

Yes you are right SS, although I've been told it was on the same persons recommendation that he was lost, he would be in my 23 covering wing and full back, he needs to calm down and dropping him to the bench and told that is why he is there, might be the kick up the .... that he needs.

No9 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

No9 wrote:

1. @Saint - Poor pointless article in you opinion. That's fair enough, I respect your right to your opinion. However, how its obvious that I've not watched rugby for very long is your assumption not a fact, hence not obvious. In fact, I'm the wrong side of 50 and have been interested in rugby since I played my first game at the age of 5 (the good old days of mini rugby when H&S didn't state you where too young). So I have watched the game for over 47 years... You may not agree with the point I was trying to pick up on (more on that later) but don't throw pointless silly immature statements questioning my commitment to this game.

If I picked the team then I have all positions sewn up. The only jersey up in the air is 14, contested atm, between Cuthbert and Amos (who's leading the charge IMO). Williams is by far our best 15 if domestic form is anything to go by. If Halfpenny doesn't make the starting team, then it's not because a goal-kicker kept him out. It's because he didn't show good enough form to oust Williams during his limited game time at Toulon. Halfpenny could still start, but it would be on the wing (14). Right now, I'd say bench is most likely. If you know as much as you think you do, then you wouldn't feel the need to ask such a ridiculous question.

Your reply (in red) has NOTHING to do with your original post that questioned "how long" I've been following rugby. The final bit (in blue) is again something completely made up... On what grounds do you feel qualified to say "If you know as much as you think you do...". What a completely arrogant comment to make, which probably says more for your ignorance than my "ridiculous question".

And on that, please allow me to treat you with the contempt I feel you deserve....

My first post suggested that it was daft to assume a goal-kicker will end Halfpenny's career all because he's a....well, goal-kicker, and daft so assume that Halfpenny is just a goal-kicker. The post in red builds upon that. So it has everything to do with anything. Your 50+ years of watching rugby hasn't served you well if you have to make stupid assumptions and ask ridiculous questions.

@Saint..

No9 wrote:@Saint..

The Saint wrote:

No9 wrote:@Saint..

Ok thats cleared the air.... Truce ?

Biggar will have no bearing on 1/2p's career. Williams might but I doubt it. When fully fit, an in form 1/2p is one of the best fullbacks in world rugby. Williams isn't.

Williams has become a potent attacking force for the Scarlets but he's second choice at test level. We also have enough wings not to try and mess about to move 1/2p there.

.

Has been so long since I've seen 1/2P actually play an attacking/counter-attacking role that I wonder whether he still has it is his locker.

Maybe it would be a good thing to let Biggar take over all kicks apart from the ones in your own half, that way 1/2P can focus on his running game. I feel that if wales are to progress this year, they are going to need more variety in attacking options. Currently every intl side knows if u kick it to 1/2P Wales never run it back. Gotta keep people guessing. A stale plan is a dead plan at this level.

Take the kicking tee away from halfpenny and how good is he against his national peers? If Bigger or anyone exceeds Halfpenny as a kicker than he should take the tee... if Hibbard was better I'd give it to him. You give it to the best guy not the guy in a specific position.

I don't know other Welsh options but I would say he is not a strike runner of the same calibre as Brown, Folau, Le Roux.

His defence is very strong and I can't recall him making a mare of things.

Overall he is a class fullback without the tee. Not the best but amongst them overall. One thing going for him mind is that given pace adds little to his game (even though he has it) he should go on to a lengthy one as others who rely on it more get older and lose a step.

If Wales do find a) a kicker who is superior and b) a better strike runner than I think he would be vulnerable. In terms of his kicking... yes he is good, on paper one of the best... but I would question his clutch credentials..... he has had 2 kicks in his life which probably will remain as the 2 biggest pressure kicks of his career (save a world cup final winning shot). Both within range, both fairly central albeit on the margins length wise.... he missed them both.

Morne & Jonny would have made them.