Do great players make great coaches? What makes a great coach?

This question can usually be answered with great examples of outstanding players who never quite cut it at the coaching level, in recent memory Martin Johnson, Phillipse St Andre and Rob Howley probably stand out the most.

Shane Williams has revealed his desire to one day coach Wales, he has spent a bit of time coaching in Japan but I want to know whether he can coach how to attack as well as he did in his playing career. This leads me to another question, what makes a great coach?

Is it their ability to convey their ideas across and have them well understood?
Is it winning respect of the team?
Is it maintaining a good policies in regards to selection, and not being afraid to take risks?

Ian McGeechan, Jim Telfer, Clive Woodward all were capped by the lions, all had major achievements as coaches. Wouldn't say they were the very best of players but they were amongst the elite.

However I do think that those who aren't quite up to standard as players make the best coaches.

I think a player expressing his desire to coach his national team isn't much to pay attention to, or let me say it isn't anything special, every playe turned coach wants to coach his country.

Whether you have played or not does not make you a good or bad coach in my opinion, it is how much work you are prepared to put in.

You say what makes a great coach?

I guess it's someone who sets down a solid platform and cohesion to start off with then builds from there.

E.g. Clive had some great players to help him turn England into the best side in the world - the holy trinity of Hill,Back and Dallaglio is one of the most formidable backrows of all time.


Gatland's successful grandslams with Wales have ultimately been built around their defence. Plus that 2008 grandslam was built around the cohesion of the Ospreys team - I think it was 13 Ospreys and 2 other blokes......

Gatland wouldn't be where he is without Edwards. Though the black mark vs Gatland is Wales' woeful record vs the tri nations in his tenure - his Welsh side have the ability but not the mental acumen in my opinion.

It's very debatable what a great coach is.

Clive Woodward had a very good group of players - probably the best England have ever had.

He won the RWC with England but he squandered the future of English rugby.

As for Lancaster - you could argue he's doing better than the likes of Robinson,Johnson and Ashton because he's got access to more young talent which has come from England's strong U20s sides in recent years.



As for outstanding former players - I think it's tough. Phillipe St Andre and Martin Johnson in particular should have never been made national coaches.

Phillipe St Andre failed at Toulon and didn't leave Sale in particularly good state on his departure.

Johnson was simply too inexperienced.

Some former players in England who could be great coaches in the future are Alex King, Paul Gustard and Tony Diprose.

They could work because they've been in the background - earning respect for their coaching more than their playing ability.

It takes time and patience to make it to the top level.

Parachuting in a coach before they are ready is inevitably going to fail.

I don't think that's necessarily fair on woodward to be truthful.

People laude the trio of Hill, Back and Dallaglio.. were they better than Clarke or Teague/Winterbottom & Richards.

To be honest I think the 91-93 trio shades it. The 93 lions had 11 Englishman in the starting lineup and they took the ABs to the brink of defeat in the lions tour. That's more than 01 during Woodwards era.. and NZ is far more difficult to tour than AUS. The early 90s England team were very very good.

Woodward had great players yes but Cooke and Rowell had equally as strong IMO and they only got the odd win vs. the 3N sides... Clive got 12 in a row and a RWC.
Have a look at England 1997 6N to England 1997 AI's... you could see a genuine difference in the mannerisms of the players, the focus. Literally the same players.

Woodward had a real salesman ethic from his previous career and I think that helped. He looked for the small percentage improvements, looked for the players who would perform when it mattered and brought in a real professional approach.
Perhaps it wouldn't be considered the norm now but I recall BOD saying that in 2001 he learnt how the English players were streets ahead in terms of conditioning, diet, attitude, professionalism from the lions tour and I would say that was all down to Woodward. These were things that coaches and players took back to their respected clubs and nations.

beshocked wrote:
As for Lancaster - you could argue he's doing better than the likes of Robinson,Johnson and Ashton because he's got access to more young talent which has come from England's strong U20s sides in recent years.

I'd agree with that - though it should be added that Lancaster's had a big hand in the setup and development of that U20 pipeline. Rob Andrew put the framework in place with the clubs, but Lancaster has overseen the player development. That's something Woodward didn't do and one reason why I feel Lancaster should be given time to bring those players through and keep the pipeline running.

I think it's very hard to say what makes a good transition from player to coach. It's a very individual thing. It's hard to imagine people who were more different as players than, say, McGeechan and Dean Richards, but they both made excellent coaches. I suppose the main characteristics they need are a very strong reading of the game - and the ability to articulate that to other players - an understanding of how changes in rules and players change the game, and strong man-management skills.

It's also worth noting that Woodward assembled a very strong team of coaches - Andy Robinson (still a great technical coach, just not a manager or selector), Brian Ashton (at times) and the likes of Sherylle Calder (vision coach).

I don't think Woodward would have succeeded on his own (or that he would have taken the job on on his own), because he reportedly generated at least as many daft ideas as good ones and really needed a team around him to filter the good stuff down to the team.

fa0019

It's debatable but I would take Hill,Back,Dallaglio over any other England backrow.

Clive got 12 wins in a row against 3N sides and a RWC - you don't think the England players were key to that?

You can't say the conditioning etc is all down to Woodward. Woodward had strong backroom staff who don't get the credit they deserve. Woodward was surrounded by a good team of coaches and players.


England's current pack is good but still pales in comparison to the 2002-3 one.

England have been screaming for a winger like Cohen or Robinson. Luger would be an improvement too. A centre like Greenwood...

Etc.

England had some really classy players who were seen as 2nd choices. - I wish Saracens could have Kyran Bracken from 2002-3 vintage now for example.

http://www.lionsrugby.com/10583.php - This talks about Hill's impact on the Lions tours.

I know you are asking about great players, but it is an interesting trend that there are fewer top coaches who haven't themselves played the game at a high professional level.

It used to be more common to see people move into coaching from a background of teaching, administration or business, after a playing career as just good club men. Lancaster is a bit of a throwback to that era, although he has a wide understanding of modern sports management and coaching ideas.

When Ewen McKenzie resigned, I tried thinking of World Cup winning players who have moved into coaching, wondering how close we are to seeing someone do the double. I came up with John Kirwan, Martin Johnson, Mike Catt, Jonny Wilkinson, Brendan Venter, Stephen Larkham, Andrew Blades, Michael Foley, Neil Back and Jason Robinson.

If Kirwan ever gets the All Balck job, then it might happen for him but he's not in pole position. Foley and Larkham are building their careers and were both linked to the Wallaby job after McKenzie resigned.

As you'd expect, there are quite a few from losing World Cup finalists: Daniel Dubroca, Pierre Berbizier, Fabien Galthié. Marc Lievremont, Patrice Lagisquet, Richard Hill (the scrum half version), Andrew Mehrtens, Jamie Joseph and Simon Culhane.



I'm sure I've missed some.

beshocked wrote:fa0019

It's debatable but I would take Hill,Back,Dallaglio over any other England backrow.

Clive got 12 wins in a row against 3N sides and a RWC - you don't think the England players were key to that?

You can't say the conditioning etc is all down to Woodward. Woodward had strong backroom staff who don't get the credit they deserve. Woodward was surrounded by a good team of coaches and players.


England's current pack is good but still pales in comparison to the 2002-3 one.

England have been screaming for a winger like Cohen or Robinson. Luger would be an improvement too. A centre like Greenwood...

Etc.

England had some really classy players who were seen as 2nd choices. - I wish Saracens could have Kyran Bracken from 2002-3 vintage now for example.

http://www.lionsrugby.com/10583.php - This talks about Hill's impact on the Lions tours.

of course the players were much of the involvement but what I was suggesting was that I didn't think they were any better than previous years/coaches. That evens it out more and the success depends more on the quality of the opposition, luck with injuries and the coaching/strategy.

In terms of the backrows

Hill > Clarke (albeit Clarke was named player of the series in 93)
Back < Winterbottom
Dallaglio = Richards (my opinion but they both suited their eras).

Of course coaching teams come together hand in hand. Woodward delegated a lot of responsibility to individual players, to coaches in general.

He had scrum captains, lineout captains, defence captains as well as the actual captains amongst players. He had kicking coaches, fitness coaches, video analysts the lot.... but that's part of being a top coach. Being able to utilise the skills of others.

Could Woodward have coached a team of XV all on his own? Probably half of them would have strangled him. But its the environment he built, the full package.

Are people forgetting the almighty force that was Tim Rodber?

6 Rodber
7 Clarke
8 Richards

Now THAT was a back row.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Are people forgetting the almighty force that was Tim Rodber?

6 Rodber
7 Clarke
8 Richards

Now THAT was a back row.

Josh Kronfeld sort of smashed it up though with his shoulder to shoulder linkman work with Lomu mind.

Reminded England how much they missed Winterbottom.

Clive Woodward, depsite having been an innovative coach in Australia and at LI and Bathy, was never really a coach for England. He was an out and out manager, who more than anything ensured that the England players preparations were perfect. On one tour when the hotels provided by ARU had beds too short for 2nd rows and was on a noisy strip, SCW reacted by moving them lock stock and barrell to a new hotel using his personal credit card. Everything was checked to the nth degree after that.


So for me SCW was a world class manager but the likes of Brian Ashton was a great coach. Ashton however, like Andy Robinson who was a world class forwards coach, was a lousy Head Coach/Manager.

Then again most Head Coaches do little coaching it seems.

LondonTiger wrote:Clive Woodward, depsite having been an innovative coach in Australia and at LI and Bathy, was never really a coach for England. He was an out and out manager, who more than anything ensured that the England players preparations were perfect. On one tour when the hotels provided by ARU had beds too short for 2nd rows and was on a noisy strip, SCW reacted by moving them lock stock and barrell to a new hotel using his personal credit card. Everything was checked to the nth degree after that.


So for me SCW was a world class manager but the likes of Brian Ashton was a great coach. Ashton however, like Andy Robinson who was a world class forwards coach, was a lousy Head Coach/Manager.

Then again most Head Coaches do little coaching it seems.

I think it was SA in Cape Town but yeah heard that story (perhaps there is two occurances??). In the old days the host team would choose the hotel, SARU put England in some 3* hotel which the bok U21 was using. So he got his wife to book out the Mount Nelson which is the oldest/probably at the time the finest hotel in the city.

I agree, was more a manager than a coach... but a great manager none the less.

Aha you are right - I had the wrong country.

A lot of it too is down to the captain at the time.

Woodward had Johnson
Various AB coaches have/had Maccaw
SA had John Smit

Just those three off the top of my head but I think those players had just as much impact on the field as any coach may have had off the field

yappysnap wrote:A lot of it too is down to the captain at the time.

Woodward had Johnson
Various AB coaches have/had Maccaw
SA had John Smit

Just those three off the top of my head but I think those players had just as much impact on the field as any coach may have had off the field

And John Hart had Taine Randall...say no more...

Taylorman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:A lot of it too is down to the captain at the time.

Woodward had Johnson
Various AB coaches have/had Maccaw
SA had John Smit

Just those three off the top of my head but I think those players had just as much impact on the field as any coach may have had off the field

And John Hart had Taine Randall...say no more...

I actually rated Taine but it was a bit crazy replacing Fitzpatrick with what 90 caps, 10+ years in the test setu[ with a chap who was a youngster with relative inexperience. Tough call.

I think one of the big things about beig a top class coach is not being stubborn and accepting if you have got something wrong.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think one of the big things about beig a top class coach is not being stubborn and accepting if you have got something wrong.

+ 1 and that were lies the problem with most ex players.

I think also that natural players and those who push the obsession of training and ethic to a whole new level find it difficult to coach players.

Different sport but Roy Keane was never going to be a good manager. Why because a) his talent was in part natural and b) he was a model professional in terms of preparation to the game. Same with Graeme Sousness.

Good coaches are often failed players, ones that dearly wanted to be great players but couldn't quite cut it. Either they were just too small, just not quick enough,... but for coaching, that's a benefit.
These guys will have spent a lifetime wondering how to breakdown a defence... rather than a simple "throw it to goliath, he'll slam it home".

I think they also understand when players fail. I recall when Danny Care got a yellow card in the Jonno era or something. I would have feared to walk back into that changing room if I was he.

Jonno was a relaxed player but he had very very high standards. If the coach said hit that ruck for the 100 time today, he'd hit that ruck. Some players perhaps would question that and I think its difficult for a elite player to not simply judge players by their own Everest like standards.

fa0019 wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

yappysnap wrote:A lot of it too is down to the captain at the time.

Woodward had Johnson
Various AB coaches have/had Maccaw
SA had John Smit

Just those three off the top of my head but I think those players had just as much impact on the field as any coach may have had off the field

And John Hart had Taine Randall...say no more...

I actually rated Taine but it was a bit crazy replacing Fitzpatrick with what 90 caps, 10+ years in the test setu[ with a chap who was a youngster with relative inexperience. Tough call.

Well you would be amongst the minority...actually no...you might be it!

Nobody has mentioned Communication skills

Players defo don't make great coaches. Some of the worst performing domestic coaches in NZ are ex-ABs. Some were great ABs and captains even! How many coaches make great players? None I imagine.

Going back to the op.  I am not a huge fan of Howler as a coach, however IMO his accomplishments as a coach (Grand Slams, lions series win, 6Ns) totally dwarf anything he achieved as as player (one hec?).