England's Lessons Identified

by jamesandimac Mon 10 Nov 2014, 8:41 am

First topic message reminder :

A thread to identify/discuss lessons/failings which England should be learning for continual self improvement in order to give them the best chance possible of succeeding.

Keep it simple, no long rants, and try to offer justifications for your points as well as solutions to the problem. And finally, although we could probably list dozens off issues, try and stick to 3.

I'll start:

1. Back row imbalance. For me the Robashaw and Wood partnership on the flanks has not proven successful in the last number of games against the ABs. I've been very impressed with Robshaw however I think we're missing a larger, more physical 6 to compliment the rumbling 8 and the dog at 7. For me the backrow looked most coomplete in test 1 in the summer and i would like to see the re-introduction of Haskell at 6. Wood should be in direct competition for the 7 shirt with Robshaw in my mind.

2. Lack of game management. Farrell look every bit the player who hasn't had much gametime this season. There were long periods in attacking phases wereby Farrell disappeared and didn't know what to do. As a result England reverted to one out rugby which didnt really offer anything. Until Farrell gets his match practice in and regains his mojo then England need to play another 10 in his stead and Ford would be my preference.

3. Midfield dynamic. Very disappointing showing again from the midfield. Neither offered a running threat and, one pass a piece aside, neither offered the attacking platform for the back three. Midfield remains the biggest question for England and it doesnt help that injuries are hindering the selection process. Twelvetrees offered so much last season and has been discarded due to being bought back too early in the summer (producing a similar performance to Farrell now), he should be afforded another showing in the midfield. 13 is the connundrum, however why not try something new and inventive and play a 13 at 13? Joseph is the form 13 in the country and makes very few mistakes. Hes also rediscovered his eye for the line and has threatening running game.

by fa0019 Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:03 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Sadly, probably yes. Form should obviously be considered, but there are a number of players whose current form is below par – Farrell, Care, Vunipola, Wood, even possibly Brown (not to mention 12T & Ashton) – we can’t drop them all.

Just a few games ago Farrell was a shoo-in, now he shouldn’t ever darken the England doorstep again. Part of his problem is he’s trying to be the complete FH that he isn’t – SL should tell him just to play to his defensive strengths. And I’m not sure he’s fully fit anyway.

It’s all part of the England problem in the backs – keep changing until we hit on the magical combination. Well here’s the thing, that combo doesn’t exist. So a good as any strategy is a defensive look or a more attacking one – depending on the oppo. Currently I think SL’s thinking is just too muddled.

What's this thing about Farrell not being fully fit? I read that he was charging fit. Who made that up as i've heard pundits and commentators say this but then the England coaches deny it and say he's in good shape.

Unless is has suffered an eye injury I don't think it counts into why he can't see a swarm of bokke coming towards him. Being 95% fit only doesn't reduce that skill.

by bluestonevedder Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:33 pm

I thought Eastmond was off to a good start with his twinkle-toe stepping at the start, but he lost the ball and everything fell flat from there. Solid defence from him, but nothing going forward unfortunately.

36 back into the 12 shirt for me. Sure he gives away a few turnovers by forcing offloads, but at least he's trying things and they do sometimes come off. He actually makes decent ground ball in hand too. Solid defence, regardless of that steam-rolling he got a year ago against the Aussies.

Why o why, o why, o why, O WHHHHHY do our forwards CONSTANTLY receive the ball standing still? Absolute basic rugby, and basic physics. Get a head of steam, call for the ball, and smash your way forward a couple of meters. Vunipola seemed to be the only guy doing it, but he couldn't hold onto the ball, so it was all completely worthless anyway.

Robshaw tackled his heart out. Wood needs to find more ways to contribute, otherwise he's on his way out. I reiterate everything that's been said about the back row already. They need to carry more, and carry harder.

Morgan was outstanding when he came on. He played the way a modern day back row should- carrying, tackling hard, making the hard yards, rucking well, and offering support. Definite to start over Billy next week.

We had 2 of the most exciting wingers in English rugby lining up on Saturday, and I completely forgot they were playing. They had to come in field to look for work and poor, poor Anthony Watson. Apparently the summit of Farrell's creativity is an inside pop pass down a channel filled with rabid, blood-thirsty Springboks. Nice one Owen.

I cannot put into words how infuriating it is to watch Owen Farrell and Danny Care play at the moment.

We're at a crossroads now where Lancaster has to put aside his lexicon of inspiring and jingoistic vocabulary, and actually make a decision to better our team. Either he jeopardises his integrity from a fans' perspective and perseveres with Farrell, or he relegates Farrell from the EPS and risks distancing himself from a fellow England coach. I'm hoping that the environment he's created in camp would mean that the latter option isn't an issue, but who knows?

A serious shake-up is needed, and I personally think it starts with Owen Farrell. Am I pinning the entire failing on Faz? Don't be ridiculous. Obviously errors such as handling and positioning are on an individual-level, but we have absolutely no creativity in attack at the moment.

by Geordie Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:54 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Sadly, probably yes. Form should obviously be considered, but there are a number of players whose current form is below par – Farrell, Care, Vunipola, Wood, even possibly Brown (not to mention 12T & Ashton) – we can’t drop them all.

Just a few games ago Farrell was a shoo-in, now he shouldn’t ever darken the England doorstep again. Part of his problem is he’s trying to be the complete FH that he isn’t – SL should tell him just to play to his defensive strengths. And I’m not sure he’s fully fit anyway.

It’s all part of the England problem in the backs – keep changing until we hit on the magical combination. Well here’s the thing, that combo doesn’t exist. So a good as any strategy is a defensive look or a more attacking one – depending on the oppo. Currently I think SL’s thinking is just too muddled.

What's this thing about Farrell not being fully fit? I read that he was charging fit. Who made that up as i've heard pundits and commentators say this but then the England coaches deny it and say he's in good shape.

Unless is has suffered an eye injury I don't think it counts into why he can't see a swarm of bokke coming towards him. Being 95% fit only doesn't reduce that skill.

FA

Hes been carrying an ankle injury i believe it is since before te end of last season. Was it one of the finals he got it. You ca see sometimes whe he kicks he pulls up on his ankle.

He's thus not fit, and subsequently not played barely any games for Sarries - Charlie Hodgson has been the main FH.

Farrell isnt a skilled player he relies on his power, kicking etc...so when he doesnt have that...hes a nothing player.

For me its time to ditch the Farrell experiment and focus on players who have genuine rugby skills (natural) like Ford, Burns, Cipriani ad possibly young Slade aswell.

by lostinwales Mon 17 Nov 2014, 12:54 pm

And to think that Care and Brown were just ridiculously good last year. *sigh...

by fa0019 Mon 17 Nov 2014, 1:36 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Barney McGrew did it wrote:Sadly, probably yes. Form should obviously be considered, but there are a number of players whose current form is below par – Farrell, Care, Vunipola, Wood, even possibly Brown (not to mention 12T & Ashton) – we can’t drop them all.

Just a few games ago Farrell was a shoo-in, now he shouldn’t ever darken the England doorstep again. Part of his problem is he’s trying to be the complete FH that he isn’t – SL should tell him just to play to his defensive strengths. And I’m not sure he’s fully fit anyway.

It’s all part of the England problem in the backs – keep changing until we hit on the magical combination. Well here’s the thing, that combo doesn’t exist. So a good as any strategy is a defensive look or a more attacking one – depending on the oppo. Currently I think SL’s thinking is just too muddled.

What's this thing about Farrell not being fully fit? I read that he was charging fit. Who made that up as i've heard pundits and commentators say this but then the England coaches deny it and say he's in good shape.

Unless is has suffered an eye injury I don't think it counts into why he can't see a swarm of bokke coming towards him. Being 95% fit only doesn't reduce that skill.

FA

Hes been carrying an ankle injury i believe it is since before te end of last season. Was it one of the finals he got it. You ca see sometimes whe he kicks he pulls up on his ankle.

He's thus not fit, and subsequently not played barely any games for Sarries - Charlie Hodgson has been the main FH.

Farrell isnt a skilled player he relies on his power, kicking etc...so when he doesnt have that...hes a nothing player.

For me its time to ditch the Farrell experiment and focus on players who have genuine rugby skills (natural) like Ford, Burns, Cipriani ad possibly young Slade aswell.

Interesting that Mike Catt said he had no injury worries but have heard pundits say otherwise.

Anyhow in full agreement about his play. You can't carry players at this level.

It reminds me of the Lee Mears/Tom Youngs experiment... the look at his workrate etc.... yes but he can't scrum?

Its not like the old days when England were so dominant they could pick weak props like Ubogu and still they'd have forwards dominance. The margins are so small these days.

You need 10s who are as good behind the back foot as they are with the front foot. You need chaps that have a 50m kicking range, a robin hood pass and the confidence and arrogance to go for it when others think he's nuts.

The bread and butter of a 10 is to control the game, run the backline and play in the parts of the field you. If a guy can only do this with a deputy behind him then he is not a real 10.

Yes JW needed Mike Catt whenever Serge Betsen played the field but Owen Farrell needs it when Mike Ross/Gethin Jenkins/ Euan Murray/Jannie Du Plessis and James Slipper play.

by englandglory4ever Mon 17 Nov 2014, 3:43 pm

Care is the form 9 in England. OK a sloppy interception aside he played pretty well. He was certainly no worse than Brown was the week before who quite rightly kept his place. Youngs has done nothing to warrant a start yet.

The players that should start are:-

Webber. A better ball carrier and scrummager than Hartley and much less likely to be sent off.
Morgan. More experience and less prone to mistake after mistake like Billy V.
Ford. Clearly the form England 10 in the AP and must surely get his turn now.
Rokoduguni. Watson showed he is not up to the defensive challenge just yet at this level.

If fit I would start Burrell for Eastmond and Launchbury for Attwood. We also need another heavy ball carrier at 6 somebody like Ewers who will take the ball up with real venom. Wood doesn't do it.

That overall performance in the first half was very poor. Too many stupid and unnecessary penalties by a whole host of players. Totally unacceptable.

by englandglory4ever Mon 17 Nov 2014, 3:47 pm

lostinwales wrote:And to think that Care and Brown were just ridiculously good last year. *sigh...

They still are the best 9 and 15 we have at the moment by a long stretch.

by fa0019 Mon 17 Nov 2014, 3:54 pm

englandglory4ever wrote:Care is the form 9 in England. OK a sloppy interception aside he played pretty well. He was certainly no worse than Brown was the week before who quite rightly kept his place. Youngs has done nothing to warrant a start yet.

The players that should start are:-

Webber. A better ball carrier and scrummager than Hartley and much less likely to be sent off.
Morgan. More experience and less prone to mistake after mistake like Billy V.
Ford. Clearly the form England 10 in the AP and must surely get his turn now.
Rokoduguni. Watson showed he is not up to the defensive challenge just yet at this level.

If fit I would start Burrell for Eastmond and Launchbury for Attwood.

That overall performance in the first half was very poor. Too many stupid and unnecessary penalties by a whole host of players. Totally unacceptable.

Gave away the penalty at the beginning too so he personally gave away 10 points at the beginning of the match. As good as you are, you act like that you will be worth less than you are costing the team and a chap who doesn't do a lot bar the percentages is a better bet long term.

The thing about Care is what is he offering the team? He has a better pass than Youngs and is more zippy around the park but his kicking game isn't what it should be and if you're off form as a SH you will literally crush your own backline's chances of scoring. Its such a vital position.

Its less about Youngs doing enough to take the shirt... if Care is having poor game after poor game then you have to make a change.... even if it's just to keep Care from getting to comfortable.

by lostinwales Mon 17 Nov 2014, 3:55 pm

BBC sports wrote:Northampton Saints centre Luther Burrell has been called into a 28-man England squad for Saturday's autumn Test against Samoa at Twickenham.

Burrell, who scored three tries during this year's Six Nations, has been added to the squad along with James Haskell, Calum Clark, Richard Wigglesworth and Billy Twelvetrees.

Twelvetrees, who rolled an ankle playing for Gloucester last Friday night, will have his fitness assessed, Courtney Lawes is expecetd to be OK despite suffering what coach Stuart Lancaster described as a "stinger".

Bath's Kyle Eastmond, who suffered concussion during Saturday's defeat against South Africa at Twickenham, is going through the return-to-play protocols in the hope that he will be ready.

England squad: Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby), Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), George Kruis (Saracens), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Calum Clark (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (Wasps), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain), Billy Vunipola (Saracens), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers), Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints), Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Owen Farrell (Saracens), George Ford (Bath Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Marland Yarde (Harlequins).

by Alex_Germany Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:06 pm

If Ford is starting (apparently he will against Samoa), then do England need a second goal kicker?

And if Henry Slade were deemed ready, would he play inside centre or outside centre? He's treated as an outside centre and flyhalf, but if you can play these two positions you should be able to play inside centre.

A 10,12,13 of Ford, Slade, Burrell (also recovered) could be tried, with Slade taking the >40m penalty shots.

(I did have a nightmare that Lancaster decided to play Farrell at 12, which I thinki is a sackable offence)

by fa0019 Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:07 pm

I think Vunipola also has to go visit some boot camp in the USA too. He looks like a 1980s prop and quite simply for someone who is meant to be some rampaging bull, he barely beats the gain line and gets taken down by most players on their own.
Morgan has never been a Alberts like bull yet he picks such clever lines. I don't know what he needs to do to get in the side.

I remember watching a match Sarries vs. Toulouse last year when Vunipola faced some young French no8 who was beat Harinorduquy to the jersey... think his name was Galan. He literally tore Vunipola to shreads.... it looked like man vs. boy.... and that guy has never even tested for France then or since.
Its no wonder England's backs look so impotent when Vunipola is the only forward making the gainline (just), the rest are not up to scratch.

In 2003 England had Vickery, Thompson, Jonno, Dallaglio, Hill who could all drive very well either by grunt or guile. You just don't see the same type of players at the moment. They have been replaced with judo wrestling, sound tacklers but poor drivers.

by englandglory4ever Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:11 pm

Twelvetrees was a walking mistake the last time he played for England. Execution and decision making under pressure was very poor. Also likely to get his clearance kicks charged down. I'd be apprehensive if he started again. He reminds me of Balshaw and Banahan.

by fa0019 Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:14 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:If Ford is starting (apparently he will against Samoa), then do England need a second goal kicker?

And if Henry Slade were deemed ready, would he play inside centre or outside centre? He's treated as an outside centre and flyhalf, but if you can play these two positions you should be able to play inside centre.

A 10,12,13 of Ford, Slade, Burrell (also recovered) could be tried, with Slade taking the >40m penalty shots.

(I did have a nightmare that Lancaster decided to play Farrell at 12, which I thinki is a sackable offence)

Ford is literally the size of Pat Lambie. He does need to bulk up a little doesn't he... if his kicking range is <10metre line only then it changes the mindset of the opposition completely. Not that Farrell has a great range himself but still.

by Tiger/Chief Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:23 pm

Just for reference Slade has played a lot of rugby at 12 but currently Exeter are playing with a battering ram ( Sam Hill ) at 12 and a distributer/balanced runner at 13 in Henry Slade

by Tiger/Chief Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:26 pm

Another point, Slade is s try scoring 13 but in a very different capacity to Burrell and Tuilagi! Seems to evade people in positions he has no right to!

He also takes all of Exeter's long range kicks

by lostinwales Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:41 pm

Tiger/Chief wrote:Another point, Slade is s try scoring 13 but in a very different capacity to Burrell and Tuilagi! Seems to evade people in positions he has no right to!

He also takes all of Exeter's long range kicks

So what we are saying is that Farrell definitely isnt the messiah, Burns and Cips are just false prophets, jury is still out on Ford, but Slade just might be angel

by Alex_Germany Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:45 pm

No, we're saying Slade might make a good centre and can share kicking duties with Ford or Burns (Cips and Farrell are OK at long range kicks). He can provide the long range penalty threat that Henson used to for Wales - and I though 12Trees might for England.

Maybe in a few years Burgess will push him from centre to flyhalf.

by jamesandimac Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:53 pm

I see Lancaster is keeping his options open for the weekend despite reducing the training squad down to 28. I imagine training tomorrow will be pretty full on what with those who played at the weekend desperate to prove a point and those who are on the fringes keen to impress their case. And that's only a good thing.

I know people are keen to keep some sort of consistency of selection and not rock the boat too much but for me I'd like to see 7 changes to the starting line up with Webber, Haskell and Morgan coming into the pack and Youngs, Ford, Twlevetrees and Burrell (wasn't sure about rushing him back but he's proved his fitness last week so makes sense to bring him back in and reintroduce a partnership that proved successful earlier this year).

See how that side goes and if its goes well keep it unchanged for Australia the following week.

If anything it will serve to put pressure on the supposed 1st choice players.

by HammerofThunor Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:55 pm

According to someone on BT Sport (Healey?) Ford has said Burgess is going to the backrow, not centre. Whether it lasts or not, we'll have to wait and see.

by bluestonevedder Mon 17 Nov 2014, 4:57 pm

Looking at the statistics from the match, it really was a complete odd-ball of a game.

Territory and possession in England's favour, but we did nothing with it.

The defensive stats are incredible. Only 1 missed tackle (99% completion rate), and 20 defenders beaten compared to SA's 1.

It just goes to show that at this level, the only thing that matters is how clinical you are with the possession you have.

by lostinwales Mon 17 Nov 2014, 5:08 pm

Small gap but gap there is. *Sigh

Manu better be fit for the 6N

by doctor_grey Mon 17 Nov 2014, 6:03 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:No, we're saying Slade might make a good centre and can share kicking duties with Ford or Burns (Cips and Farrell are OK at long range kicks). He can provide the long range penalty threat that Henson used to for Wales - and I though 12Trees might for England.

Maybe in a few years Burgess will push him from centre to flyhalf.

So.........you blokes want to see:
10 Ford
12 Farrell
13 Slade
15 Cipriani

Myler on the bench.

by majesticimperialman Mon 17 Nov 2014, 6:41 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Alex_Germany wrote:No, we're saying Slade might make a good centre and can share kicking duties with Ford or Burns (Cips and Farrell are OK at long range kicks). He can provide the long range penalty threat that Henson used to for Wales - and I though 12Trees might for England.

Maybe in a few years Burgess will push him from centre to flyhalf.
So.........you blokes want to see:
10 Ford
12 Farrell
13 Slade
15 Cipriani

Myler on the bench.

Farrel should either be on the bench or dropped from the match day 23.

Cirpiani is not a full back. Just like Mike Brown is not a winger.

Why try and play players out of position?

by Welly Mon 17 Nov 2014, 6:51 pm

So the talk again is a 3/4ers of
Ford
Farrell
Burrell

furious

Clark better not feature as i'm going to this match.

by Tiger/Chief Mon 17 Nov 2014, 7:48 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Alex_Germany wrote:No, we're saying Slade might make a good centre and can share kicking duties with Ford or Burns (Cips and Farrell are OK at long range kicks). He can provide the long range penalty threat that Henson used to for Wales - and I though 12Trees might for England.

Maybe in a few years Burgess will push him from centre to flyhalf.
So.........you blokes want to see:
10 Ford
12 Farrell
13 Slade
15 Cipriani

Myler on the bench.

I never want to see Owen Farrell at 12 for England!

I would select

10. Ford ( lets hope he steps up )
11. May
12 + 13. Burrell Slade Eastmond depending on game plan.
14. Yarde
15. Brown

I'm not convinced that Brown is good enough to play as a second distributor and Farrell has looked dross without 12trees! For me Slade has to be on the bench offering a kicking game either at 10,12 or 13

by **LondonTiger** Mon 17 Nov 2014, 9:59 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
So.........you blokes want to see:
10 Ford
12 Farrell
13 Slade
15 Cipriani

Myler on the bench.

9 Myler (his uncle played half back in RL)
10 Ford
11 Botica (probably not EQP, but hey if NZ can pick a 10 on the Wing)
12 Farrell
13 Slade
14 Cipriani - surely as defensively sound as Ashton
15 Burns

Sorted

Oh Bench - Andy Goode, Alex Goode and Johny B Goode

by yappysnap Mon 17 Nov 2014, 10:10 pm

I just feel sorry for Joe Ford, must suck to see his bro sometimes!

by doctor_grey Mon 17 Nov 2014, 10:15 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Alex_Germany wrote:No, we're saying Slade might make a good centre and can share kicking duties with Ford or Burns (Cips and Farrell are OK at long range kicks). He can provide the long range penalty threat that Henson used to for Wales - and I though 12Trees might for England.

Maybe in a few years Burgess will push him from centre to flyhalf.
So.........you blokes want to see:
10 Ford
12 Farrell
13 Slade
15 Cipriani

Myler on the bench.

Farrel should either be on the bench or dropped from the match day 23.

Cirpiani is not a full back. Just like Mike Brown is not a winger.

Why try and play players out of position?

Just having a laugh, mate. Nothing more.
As long as Lancaster doesn't read this we should be OK.

Farrell needs a break and should not play this weekend. Same, too, Brown.

by Alex_Germany Mon 17 Nov 2014, 10:34 pm

Seriously - is Slade good enough?

It's too early to say whether he's going to be world class - but he seems to have the right attributes (speed, size, kicking, passing, defence, awareness)* to solve England's inside centre problem.

*Just like 12trees - has those attributes.

by Alex_Germany Mon 17 Nov 2014, 10:38 pm

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/17/england-owen-farrell-samoa-george-ford

I hope this is wrong.

Lancaster: DO NOT PLAY PLAYERS OUT OF POSITION.

I know Farrell has played at 12 for Saracens, but he's hardly lit up the premiership there.

by DaveM Mon 17 Nov 2014, 10:41 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:
Robshaw tackled his heart out. Wood needs to find more ways to contribute, otherwise he's on his way out. I reiterate everything that's been said about the back row already. They need to carry more, and carry harder.

Morgan was outstanding when he came on. He played the way a modern day back row should- carrying, tackling hard, making the hard yards, rucking well, and offering support. Definite to start over Billy next week.

I think the board over-focusses on the carrying ability of the English pack. Now more carrying is nice, but England made plenty of yards at the weekend. For me the backrow deficiency, such as there was one, was at rucks - not enough turn-over and quick ball - and if we want to fix that then we should give Clark and Haskell (and possibly Twelvetrees, who is very decent in a ruck situation) a go. The pack in general competed extremely well with the SA pack (how many big carries did they manage against us?), and that wouldn't have happened 2 or 3 years back.

England have a pack which is basically good enough to win a home World Cup, and a pack which is essentially injury proof because we have excellent strength in depth. The primary problem is with the backs, obviously..........

by DaveM Mon 17 Nov 2014, 10:44 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:Seriously - is Slade good enough?

It's too early to say whether he's going to be world class - but he seems to have the right attributes (speed, size, kicking, passing, defence, awareness)* to solve England's inside centre problem.

*Just like 12trees - has those attributes.

I'd say Devoto is closer to Twelvetrees in terms of attributes.

Slade is an excellent talent, but as he isn't in the 28 for the weekend I suspect we won't see him feature for england until after the WC (at which point he might become the starting 10, as I think he's probably the most rounded of the EPS FHs).

by DaveM Mon 17 Nov 2014, 10:49 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/17/england-owen-farrell-samoa-george-ford

I hope this is wrong.

Lancaster: DO NOT PLAY PLAYERS OUT OF POSITION.

I know Farrell has played at 12 for Saracens, but he's hardly lit up the premiership there.

I'm definitely not a Farrell hater - I think he's played some outstanding rugby for England and will probably do so again. If he were playing well then it might be worth a look with him outside Ford (this could help with the bench in future), but he isn't, he's playing really badly and should be sent back to Sarries to find some form. There's a fine line between loyalty and inflexibility, and I'm worried SL is crossing it here.

Ford, Farrell, Barritt doesn't inspire confidence.

There is another story here though, which is Ford's goal-kicking is obviously concerning the coaching team. Hence my point about Slade potentially being the best long-term option at 10 (or Lozowski - I can't remember the last time I saw a player for the first time and felt so excited).

by majesticimperialman Mon 17 Nov 2014, 10:50 pm

Alex_Germany wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/nov/17/england-owen-farrell-samoa-george-ford

Lancaster: DO NOT PLAY PLAYERS OUT OF POSITION.

I know Farrell has played at 12 for Saracens, but he's hardly lit up the premiership there.

I do hope this is wrong. i do believe that Farrell should be on the bench or dropped from the match day 23 for the Samoa game.
Or is his (DADDY PULLING THE STRINGS) and keeping him in the team?

What about a centre of Barrit and Burrel, or Barrit and Joseph?

Keeping Owen Farrell in the team when he nearly Watson the winger burried in our own half instead of kicking the ball clear.

Besides did he not go off limping last week? isn't that why Ford came on in the first place?

I thought that Lancaster would of learnt the hard when he played Mike Brown on the wing in 2012 All Blacks game.

by doctor_grey Tue 18 Nov 2014, 4:05 am

Like most of us I think playing Farrell at 12 this weekend is a mistake. Or, in fact, playing him at all. Against the Boks he wasn't playing well and then appeared to come off injured. So, why put him at 12 where he will have more contact than at 10? The pressure on him will be the same. Rather than have the pressure of initiating play, he will now have to execute. Unfortunately, I see nothing positive to come out of this. He needs to be away from England to rest and re-focus. Plus, Ford will be looking over his shoulder for the moment when Lancaster decides to move Farrell back to 10. Probably the worst scenario of all.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 18 Nov 2014, 6:54 am

It seems a lot of people want to see Farrell out of the matchday squad.

The question I keep putting is - and I'm sure it is one that the coaches consider - who covers centre among your reserves?

Apart from the scrum half and fly half substitutes, you only get one more back on the bench. None of our other available fly halves, and none of the starting back three can cover the position.

If you choose a centre on the bench, then you need wing and full back cover.

Lancaster gets rightly criticized for playing people out of position, but his squad is actually specialized in the same areas, and that gives us little flexibility. None of our back three options can cover the midfield. In the past, we've had Tait, Delon Armitage and Simpson-Daniel. I'm sure no-one can forget that Banahan played wing and centre for England. Lewsey and Cueto knew the team patterns well enough to do a job there at a pinch..

We've got a centre who plays occasional fly half (Twelvetrees) two fly halves who have played full back (Burns and Cipriani) and a full back who has played fly half (Goode). None of these would make me very comfortable if they had to slot in their other position at Test level, so setting up the bench to to rely on them to do that as their primary responsibility seems risky.

One of the problems with having a high attrition rate among our wingers is that none of them have enough squad experience to slip into the midfield if required. This conundrum is one reason Lancaster wanted to experiment with Tuilagi on the wing, and why he still thinks about Farrell at inside centre.

by jamesandimac Tue 18 Nov 2014, 7:10 am

Lancaster has mentioned reigniting the U20 midfield of Ford Farrell and Tuilagi throughout the year and I think he would've done before now if it weren't for injury.

Farrell has good attributes to play 12 however he hasn't got a running threat to speak of which is a concern. In that midfield though the running threat would come from 10 and 13 so it might work, however having Barritt in place of Tuilagi is worrying as again there will be no attacking threat from the midfield.

Farrell needs to bench this weekend that much is evident.

by Alex_Germany Tue 18 Nov 2014, 7:56 am

jamesandimac wrote:
Farrell has good attributes to play 12 however he hasn't got a running threat to speak of which is a concern.

There are lots of nice to haves for a 12 - having a running threat is the most important (maybe after a defence).

There was a comment somewhere:
"Care looked a bit off form last Saturday. Why not put him on the wing and bring in Youngs"

by Bluedragon Tue 18 Nov 2014, 9:48 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Fat Morgan to start with Vunipola on the bench. Do both boys spend their off-time contesting who can eat the most cheeseburgers at McDonalds?
Dr Grey
Personally I thought Morgan was very impressive yesterday. He carried very well...both in to contact and what he's best at into space...shows intelligence.
Also his tackling was top class. He made 2 absolutely key tackles that I can remember which were try saving. He needs to be given a chance to show he can perform like that consistently with Billy V off the bench.
I agree with you Morgan was very good. Probably one of the best England players on the pitch. But doesn't his recent history seem to show good play followed by matches where he seems out of sorts and giving the appearance of being out of shape? ? If he can wean himself off the cheeseburger diet I think he could be a real game-changer at 8. And I would like to see that.

This is morgan off the cheeseburgers. When the scarlets first picked him up from Merthyr rfc he was 22 stone. Took a season to get all the chub off him to his current svelte like figure. This is the thinned down version...........

Nigel Davies in 2011 : “He has come from nowhere over the last two years. He was 127kg when he came to us two years ago, just a big, fat blob and in the programme he has developed. He always had the raw ability, that power and pace, we just needed to make him into an athlete and that’s what has happened over the last two years."

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/big-ben-doing-rush-job-1839941
Erm

by doctor_grey Tue 18 Nov 2014, 11:36 pm

This is the Morgan with a Hercules-like body???

OK, just joking, but he has tended to disappear in some matches after showing up with some real good high impact performances. Gives me the impression of being out of shape or not maintaining his fitness. If Gloucester and/or England can get him over the hump and he starts to deliver consistent performances, he could be one of the best Number 8s in the world. And I think it must be conditioning.

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