Welsh centres - the missing spark in midfield

by Guest Wed 03 Dec 2014, 11:49 am

It has been discussed in another thread, that Wales are lacking a bit of creativity in midfield, and calls for Henson or even Hook to return to the 12 position have been made.

Whats the problem with Roberts/Davies combo?

Both rely on physicality and getting over the gain line, neither have a great passing or kicking game, Davies on top form is a good distributer but not as creative as other players. When Wales are on the front foot, these 2 work well, when Wales are on the back foot, nothing happens in midfield.

What are Wales' current options?

Most of Wales' current centres offer the same thing in attack, they're mostly good runners with little distribution or kicking game.

Scott Williams - good runner in attack, but not a lot of creativity

Corey Allen - hasn't been in great form recently, needs to work on his distribution

Ashley Beck - not convinced he has made the step up to international level, but hes still young and deserves another chance, returning from injury he needs to show the form he showed for the Ospreys

Gavin Henson - is having a good run of games for Bath, and playing well, he is getting on a bit at 32, but he still has something to offer the squad, can kick, defend and distribute

James Hook - centre isn't his preferred position, but I think he has played well there in the past

What are Wales' potential options?

Tyler Morgan - promising talent

Rhys Patchell - can make a decent centre

Steve Shingler - seems average to me

by The Saint Wed 03 Dec 2014, 12:03 pm

Davies was the problem as he's off form. Put Scott Williams in the centre. It's just a question of who plays 12 and 13 out of him and Roberts.

by **profitius** Wed 03 Dec 2014, 12:37 pm

Gatland won't sacrifice physicality for skill.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 03 Dec 2014, 12:44 pm

JD has very good hands and is more skillful than people give him credit for but as me and Saint have both said he wasn't fully fit and we should have played Sc Williams.

by Barney McGrew did it Wed 03 Dec 2014, 12:51 pm

Part of the problem at centre is that Roberts seems to have gone from Jamie 'sick-note' to Jamie 'feet for hands'. If you can keep his fit AND able to hold onto the ball that'd help. JD is usually class.

by offload Wed 03 Dec 2014, 12:58 pm

Centre isn't the problem. Roberts had a good series and JD was back from injury.

The problem is our back three. North was poor, 1/2p was not an attacking force and in general the wingers didn't look for enough work. Spark will come when 11,12,13,14 and 15 start operating more together and maybe get coached differently? 1/2p was rock solid and kicked well, but he's not countering well. 12 and 13 have little opportunity to create if the back three are absent.

by Comfort Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:01 pm

I actually think JD2 & Scott Williams is our best centre partnership when both are fit and on form. Jd2 has an underrated little kicking game (and hes a lefty) and his distribution gets slammed but its actually not that bad. He clearly wasnt fit/on-form this AIs but was decent enough in his showings.

Scott Williams is still learning tactically imo, hence his head down approach sometimes, missing overlaps and rushing out of the line defensively etc. Hopefully he's learning and this will die down more and more, it has been doing so for a while to be fair.

I'd love to see a backline of

Webb
Biggar
Halfpenny
Scott Williams
JD2
Cuthbert/North (whoevers on better form)
Liam Williams

by bedfordwelsh Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:20 pm

For me we have looked more attack minded every time Li Williams moved to XV. I know some will dis-agree but these guys have skills but they are coached by a poor attack coach who doesn't utilise their strenghts enough.

Howley going would be a huge plus point for me.

by Comfort Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:23 pm

BW im with you on that. Although we started seeing more variation over the AIs its about 3 years too late.

Who's out there for the role though even if Gats was to get rid of him...

by bedfordwelsh Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:25 pm

Not sure how this would sit with a lot of people or how successful he would be but I would like Shane Howarth to be considered.

by iantobquick Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:28 pm

We also lack any pace off the mark at 10, 12 and 13 I feel. There's no breaking of the defence in this respect so is difficult to get behind other than the banging. Our pace is on the wings and at FB and as offload states they seem to be not looking to come in to the line.

by offload Wed 03 Dec 2014, 3:00 pm

iantobquick wrote:We also lack any pace off the mark at 10, 12 and 13 I feel. There's no breaking of the defence in this respect so is difficult to get behind other than the banging. Our pace is on the wings and at FB and as offload states they seem to be not looking to come in to the line.

Ianto - absolutely no offence intended here, but "be quick" is the phrase I use when I want my dog to do his business. I won't be able to read your future posts without that thought..... Wink

by iantobquick Wed 03 Dec 2014, 3:09 pm

I am pretty quick actually!

by Comfort Wed 03 Dec 2014, 3:13 pm

ianto, in that case fancy a run at 12? mo1

by iantobquick Wed 03 Dec 2014, 3:25 pm

This all sounds like "bored at work". Back to subject...I don't see much Rugby so is Owen W at Leicester a bet for 10 or 12 or are we heading for our fast tracked Kiwi. Either way I would really love to see some stepping and go in midfield. Someone mentioned Patchell at 12 but he'll end up another Hook I reckon, 10, 12, 15 etc...I would like him tested at 10 for a good spell 'cos the little bits I have seen of him I really like.

by LordDowlais Wed 03 Dec 2014, 3:44 pm

Patchell is NOT a center, the same as North is NOT a center, these players are luxury players, I want a center who can tackle, not one that is a revolving door !!!!

by bedfordwelsh Wed 03 Dec 2014, 3:48 pm

iantobquick wrote:This all sounds like "bored at work". Back to subject...I don't see much Rugby so is Owen W at Leicester a bet for 10 or 12 or are we heading for our fast tracked Kiwi. Either way I would really love to see some stepping and go in midfield. Someone mentioned Patchell at 12 but he'll end up another Hook I reckon, 10, 12, 15 etc...I would like him tested at 10 for a good spell 'cos the little bits I have seen of him I really like.

I doubt he will get a spell at 10 now Anscombe is here.

by LordDowlais Wed 03 Dec 2014, 3:51 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
iantobquick wrote:This all sounds like "bored at work". Back to subject...I don't see much Rugby so is Owen W at Leicester a bet for 10 or 12 or are we heading for our fast tracked Kiwi. Either way I would really love to see some stepping and go in midfield. Someone mentioned Patchell at 12 but he'll end up another Hook I reckon, 10, 12, 15 etc...I would like him tested at 10 for a good spell 'cos the little bits I have seen of him I really like.

I doubt he will get a spell at 10 now Anscombe is here.

No, he will be played at 15. Which is a shame as I think he would have made a pretty good 10, a complete oposite of Dan Biggar if you like, which is always a good option.

by gavstar Thu 04 Dec 2014, 3:43 pm

I started the Henson call on the other thread and for me he still covers all areas with a proven skill set in each . 32 yes, weary from a tough career ..no. lots of gaps in playing, and his fitness has never been in question according to all the coaches his training and fitness were never an issue.
for me he 's a ready made fit. someone on the other thread said Henson is ok but nothing special. I said he doesn't have to be special, just put something there that we haven't got . he's also good at the drop goals (poor Dan ! )
he used to be a Gats man, and Edwards put him in charge of defence calls. At the moment I can't think of any other player that has so much going for him.
maybe this is the age now that he is finally mature. According to psychologists we start to mature and take responsibility at 32!!! so who knows. Until we find a better fit why not ?
Patchell is best at 15 I think, Owen Williams will get there ,but hot and cold, typical youngster, and anscome is supposedly best at 15 more room to influence, likes only deep at 10 , which doesn't fit welsh plans.

by Seagultaf Fri 05 Dec 2014, 4:42 pm

iantobquick wrote:We also lack any pace off the mark at 10, 12 and 13 I feel. There's no breaking of the defence in this respect so is difficult to get behind other than the banging. Our pace is on the wings and at FB and as offload states they seem to be not looking to come in to the line.

JD2 is lightening quick off the mark and very quick over distance also, Roberts is also no slouch. Both are significantly quicker than Hook or Henson who seem to be the popular solution. I agree with the other posters who criticised the back three, Halfpenny has lost his attacking spark, Cuthbert is way off form and North looked knackered from his workload in the Aviva. I would be tempted to play a back three of Liam Williams at 15 and Halfpenny and North on the wing.

Also as good as Biggar has been this autumn he is still not a creative 10. He is now playing closer to the gainline but does not seem comfortable there (a bit like Farrel) but Wales cannot afford to drop either JD2 or Roberts for a Twelvetrees style second five eighths.

by bedfordwelsh Fri 05 Dec 2014, 4:48 pm

Cuthbert was in way better form during he AIs than North was.

by Guest Fri 05 Dec 2014, 5:08 pm

Thats really not saying much though, both were mostly anonymous in attack except for that try against Australia

by bedfordwelsh Fri 05 Dec 2014, 6:16 pm

IM,

I agree but just get peeved when the default option is for everyone to drop Cuthbert. Their defence is as poor as each other and their strike rate pretty much the same as well but North is definately the golden boy of some.

by gavstar Fri 05 Dec 2014, 7:52 pm

how creative a 10 is depends a lot on space he has when he's passed the ball, and the creativeness of those outside him to do more with the ball when they get it. we've seen chips through, a few delayed passes putting people in to space , great kicks for chase and attack. hook was called creative......usually went on his own isolatd etc.
we would see more along the creative lines if dan wasn't so flat , had more in the pocket periods, and we had an attacking fullback. where wales are asking 10 to play nullifies some creativity other than the kicking game which is excellent. if 10 is expected to create a break from standing up flat at international level, those around have to move, think ,become decoy runners, and stop playing robotic rugby. dan in an armchair ride is not going to happen in the welsh set up. dan has put people in try scoring positions and they have wasted the opportunities, mainly through poor basic skills. forget the gym for a bit and get back to keeping the ball in hand more and MOVING instead of looking for contact. That said , the players will play to orders , so back to square 1.
Barnes said last night dan is his second choice at the moment to sexton for the lions, and in the sunday times dan had 10 out of 10 , he plays where and what he's told, and some want him to play differently....not going to happen.

by Guest Fri 05 Dec 2014, 9:30 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Cuthbert was in way better form during he AIs than North was.

Way better? I'd say that North was poor and very quiet while Cuthbert was just less so. Not sure I'd say way better. That would suggest that Cuthbert was good! Maybe I just didn't see him doing the good stuff. But wingers usually stand out and I can't recall anything good by Cuthbert.

by bedfordwelsh Fri 05 Dec 2014, 9:36 pm

Griff wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Cuthbert was in way better form during he AIs than North was.

Way better? I'd say that North was poor and very quiet while Cuthbert was just less so. Not sure I'd say way better. That would suggest that Cuthbert was good! Maybe I just didn't see him doing the good stuff. But wingers usually stand out and I can't recall anything good by Cuthbert.

Yeah ok maybe not way better but was better than North and like said I just get peeved when the default for a lot of people is to automatically drop Cuthbert, for me there isn't much between them at all.

by Guest Fri 05 Dec 2014, 9:47 pm

I agree. In terms of strike rate I think they're about similar for wales (a guess though)? Defence is not great from either. I guess George gets the plaudits more perhaps as his club form is often better. So for him if he has a bad game then he's just off form as he's tearing it up for Saints, but if Cuthbert has a bad game then he hasn't got a great deal of club form to fall back on and people call for him to be dropped for displaying no form at all.

by bedfordwelsh Fri 05 Dec 2014, 10:05 pm

Yeah agree with that Griff and in fiarness to him North was on fire for Saints before the AIs, as for their strike rate just done bit of googling:

North Caps 45, Tries 19 (95pts) try every 2.3 games

Cuthbert Caps 30, Tries 14 (70pts) try every 2.1 games

So nothing in it at all really, bit of a side issue but if he can stay fit on form etc at only 22 with 45 caps already how many could North get I wonder.

Just ammended and yep according to good old wikipoop thats correct though doubt includes the AIs.

by Guest Fri 05 Dec 2014, 10:13 pm

Have you got that the wrong way round Bedford?! On those figures North's rate is 2.5 and Cuthbert's in 2.1!

by bedfordwelsh Fri 05 Dec 2014, 10:27 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Yeah agree with that Griff and in fiarness to him North was on fire for Saints before the AIs, as for their strike rate just done bit of googling:

North Caps 45, Tries 19 (95pts) try every 2.3 games

Cuthbert Caps 30, Tries 14 (70pts) try every 2.1 games

So nothing in it at all really, bit of a side issue but if he can stay fit on form etc at only 22 with 45 caps already how many could North get I wonder.

Just ammended and yep according to good old wikipoop thats correct though doubt includes the AIs.

by bedfordwelsh Sun 07 Dec 2014, 7:25 pm

Centres aside lets hope Gatland and Co give real consideration to Owen Williams up at Leicester. Few mistakes today but overall a really good mature and calm game, not saying he the answer or the complete package yet but he's definately someone we could do with in the set up.

by majesticimperialman Sun 07 Dec 2014, 9:26 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Centres aside lets hope Gatland and Co give real consideration to Owen Williams up at Leicester. Few mistakes today but overall a really good mature and calm game, not saying he the answer or the complete package yet but he's definately someone we could do with in the set up.

I watched the game today and a cannot believe that he was left out of the Ais.

He must surely be in the 6ns squad. Or is Gatland and co hoping that Priestland gets himself fit again?

by Guest Sun 07 Dec 2014, 9:31 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:Centres aside lets hope Gatland and Co give real consideration to Owen Williams up at Leicester. Few mistakes today but overall a really good mature and calm game, not saying he the answer or the complete package yet but he's definately someone we could do with in the set up.

I watched the game today and a cannot believe that he was left out of the Ais.

He must surely be in the 6ns squad. Or is Gatland and co hoping that Priestland gets himself fit again?

The thing is Maj, we've asked Leicester fans about Owen Williams numerous times on here, and fans of other english teams. How's he doing, should he be in the Welsh squad, etc. Most of the time English fans have said he's ok but nothing spectacular. He seems solid to me, kicks his goals. But the feedback I've seen means he's no better than what we've got. He might add some depth though, so should be added on that basis. But we need an X factor 10 at a the moment. I think Gats is holding out for one of them.

by bedfordwelsh Sun 07 Dec 2014, 9:35 pm

maj,

Not overly sure, he was originally picked for the summer tour but a bit of ill discipline cost him a place then. Whether leaving him out of the AIs was a further warning to keep it clean etc guess we won't know.

I agree he has to be in the 6 Nations not slating Biggar at all but I have always liked players competing who offer different things horses for courses etc etc.

by Gwlad Mon 08 Dec 2014, 3:03 am

I think the biggest problem both Roberts and Davies has is that neither are great passers of the ball. Added to that, team orders seem to be that JR is used as a route 1 option and the entire gainline strategy in Wales midfield seems to revolve around that direct running- though against SA there were signs of him trying to offload pre tackle and being used as a decoy while clearly the plan was to get the ball wide quickly.
JD is rusty and I think he will find his form again in the 6 Nations, but in terms of the OP the only real option this close to the RWC seems to be Scott Williams who varies between being a fine replacement and a complete liability.
I think both Henson and Hook have something very different to these 3 to offer- time on the ball being the main thing, especially Henson, but I don't think either are really in Gatland's plans other than in the event of a real crisis. Hook has had his day I'm afraid although with Priestland's obvious demotion to No2 I can actually see Hook coming back in to fill the bench spot until Anscombe is ready.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 08 Dec 2014, 8:18 am

I think JD gets a rough deal with regards his passing skills he has very good hands IMO, as for O Williams he may not be better than what we have but he is different to what we currently have (Hook aside) and I always like having diff styles available.

by gavstar Mon 08 Dec 2014, 12:40 pm

the reason we don't have different styles favoured by the gats gang is because the game is played one way. you do not go off plan. this is the way you play, this is the plan. the only position where there is a possibility of playing gats way but adding another attacking option is full back, and halfp does not present himself as an attacking full back. the centres run straight, and jd may kick ahead, that's it.
sending someone on to 'change the game' has long gone. we now have subs coming on to continue with the game plan and maybe execute aspects of the game better than the ones that have been taken off. why would gats & co want to change the game with someone different when they have never ever said their plan was wrong, or doesn't work, when every man and his dog has seen games lost through playing the same tactics for the full 80.
when asked about the tactics gats always says its the execution not being accurate, clinical etc never the tactics needing a change.
so we need an excellent kicking game under pressure.

by bedfordwelsh Mon 08 Dec 2014, 12:49 pm

gav,

I would say that has changed a bit with the introduction of Webb, he is not in the same mould as Phillips and I would say that Biggar and Priestland are not in same mould either.

by Gwlad Mon 08 Dec 2014, 7:10 pm

Gavstar

Gatland beat SA by changing the game plan. It was clear the message was get the ball wide and quick, and there was evidence that offload is back in the armory. Actually, what Wales used to be great at was off load and hi tempo rugby, making the most of the last 3rd when the game opened up, what NZ did to them this time round.

Over the course of Gatland's reign this has been eroded to some extent by his obsession with big backs and a route 1 approach based on JR carrying into 10/12. That tactic is very limited and has definitely been found out by the SH. The approach to SA was very different and more like the Wales of old.

by Guest Mon 08 Dec 2014, 8:15 pm

I actually think the game plan is limited by the skills of the players, the high tempo offloading game was with a completely different set of players, the current generation are more physical and abrasive.

When Gatland's gameplan works, it works really well (England 2013 and Australia 3rd Lions test). When it doesn't work, the team falls to pieces (Ireland 2014).

by bedfordwelsh Mon 08 Dec 2014, 9:36 pm

IM,

I agree but why only use it occasionally why not use it as the main weapon.

by Guest Tue 09 Dec 2014, 11:09 am

The excuse we here is they were unable to get it going, either because the other team out play them, or individuals are not doing something correctly.

Either way, I don't know why they persist on trying to get into game plan A even if its obvious its not working. I would love to see a high tempo offloading game, but I don't think the current selection of players in the backline are capable of it, at least not at test rugby level.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 09 Dec 2014, 12:02 pm

But they are though, you mentioned the England and Lions games and North, Doc, JD and Halfpenny were involved in both those games so they have the skill set but at mo for some reason they not using it unless it seems our backs are against the wall/last resort type thing.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue 09 Dec 2014, 12:39 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:But they are though, you mentioned the England and Lions games and North, Doc, JD and Halfpenny were involved in both those games so they have the skill set but at mo for some reason they not using it unless it seems our backs are against the wall/last resort type thing.

That is one thing that really gets to me about Welsh rugby. Over the course of the AIs so much was made about our lack of mindset when it comes to the big teams, and closing games out. But it is our mindset fullstop that is iffy. Your spot on our players are all big game players, but sadly they are not small game players. The only way I can see us changing this is if we start to drop players. Say to Roberts, well against Fiji you were dire, so Scott Williams is starting against NZ etc. We all know what the first XV is going to be for the big games, and the players know it too. If a big game player faulters against the smaller nations they remain in the team for the big game to 'prove themselves', and if a small game player plays well, he may be lucky enough to bench warm in the big game, and then come on when all is lost.

by bedfordwelsh Tue 09 Dec 2014, 2:57 pm

SS,

Couldn't agree more, IMO nobody is to big to be dropped but we have seen for years that certain players keep getting picked no matter what yet other players were dropped immediately or never given a fair crack.

The likes of Delve, Robinson and more recently Biggar were always picked in a much changed side as if to keep the peace then when that side struggled it looked to have justified the coaches decisions.

You're right about being able to pick the team for the biug games, though I was pleasantly surprised to see the likes of Webb and James picked over Phillips and Jenkins.

JD shouldn't hve been brought straight back in, give Sc Williams or Allen a run and Li Williams should have started from the off and not only because players were injured.

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