Top 10 No 10's in world rugby

First topic message reminder :

Wales online have posted their top 10 flyhalves in the world right now (top flyhalves):
1. Sexton (Ire)
2. Foley (Aus)
3. Carter (NZ)
4. Bigger (Wal)
5. Cruden (NZ)
6. Barrett (NZ)
7. Sanchez (Arg)
8. Lopez (Fra)
9. Cooper (Aus)
10. Pollard (SA)

Discuss.....

Bullsbok wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Haha...fair enough Taylor, I just don't rate Cruden that highly at International level. I've never watched him play and thought "that was a top performance", were it's a regular thing with Sexton and pre injuries Carter.

I can't recall all the NZ games but I'd be surprised if I didn't think Cruden had been outperformed this year, I don't think he's had a top game in a black jersey for a while. He did have a breathtaking 20mins against Ireland a few years back, he looks a much better player with SBW outside him imo.

this years been a bit weird and he cost his season by not boarding the plane to SA. Ive seen Sexton play well for Leinster and Ireland and he did very well versus the boks but even then my reaction was...geez he never does that against us. So theres definitely a chip in his mind for the AB's and I think its a case of they know how to rattle him. It seems certain players pick the right mindset to be in for the ABs.

Adam Ashley cooper is one of them, O'Driscoll, Lawes, Hartley, Genia, Habana, JDV, Hooper, Vermulens amongst others always seem to get it right. Sexton, Morne Steyn, Halfpenny are amongst those who never seem to get it right but play well elsewhere. Next year might be the year he undoes that. He's good enough and his side is getting better with him. I think we'll get our answer nbext year.

Morne Steyn ? 31 point haul v All blacks Steyn?

yes thought someone might raise that one. Its more his last 10 or so tests I'm referring to. That one stood out. Since then theyve well and truly worked him out. And I don't count 10 and kicker in the same light. Theyre two different roles. Sextons I mentioned as tongue in cheek as Crudens goalkicking is hopeless.

Its no coincidence that Mornes best match was about goalkicks. In the 10 role he's fairly limited.

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've seen all of Cruden's Int games this year, similar with Sexton and can safely say Sexton has performed on a different level.

Sexton getting nominated for the IRB player of the year (the only FH) is surely an indication he's been the best 10 this year? I think the nominations were done prior to the AI's? (I may be wrong)

I'm an England fan and have no bias to Sexton, he's just a bloody good player. Cruden is a top 10 no doubt and would be top 5 or maybe top 3, he's just not at Sexton's level.

Your opinion pooly, thats fine. He didn't play the ABs this year so thats understandable also. He did last year, and choked a simple kick where others performed well. He was also poor on the tour in 2012. So as I said, this year he get's the nomination, albeit without facing a black jersey. Until he does that he falls short.

Cruden is still yet to play a losing test since being a sub in the already lost 2012. His absence this year has been telling. No one has yet outplayed him on the field...Sexton included.

To be fair Cruden doesnt have to play the All Blacks

Golden wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've seen all of Cruden's Int games this year, similar with Sexton and can safely say Sexton has performed on a different level.

Sexton getting nominated for the IRB player of the year (the only FH) is surely an indication he's been the best 10 this year? I think the nominations were done prior to the AI's? (I may be wrong)

I'm an England fan and have no bias to Sexton, he's just a bloody good player. Cruden is a top 10 no doubt and would be top 5 or maybe top 3, he's just not at Sexton's level.

Your opinion pooly, thats fine. He didn't play the ABs this year so thats understandable also. He did last year, and choked a simple kick where others performed well. He was also poor on the tour in 2012. So as I said, this year he get's the nomination, albeit without facing a black jersey. Until he does that he falls short.

Cruden is still yet to play a losing test since being a sub in the already lost 2012. His absence this year has been telling. No one has yet outplayed him on the field...Sexton included.

To be fair Cruden doesnt have to play the All Blacks

true, but then other don't have to compete with Carter for the position either. He's done that all career.

Taylorman wrote:

Golden wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've seen all of Cruden's Int games this year, similar with Sexton and can safely say Sexton has performed on a different level.

Sexton getting nominated for the IRB player of the year (the only FH) is surely an indication he's been the best 10 this year? I think the nominations were done prior to the AI's? (I may be wrong)

I'm an England fan and have no bias to Sexton, he's just a bloody good player. Cruden is a top 10 no doubt and would be top 5 or maybe top 3, he's just not at Sexton's level.

Your opinion pooly, thats fine. He didn't play the ABs this year so thats understandable also. He did last year, and choked a simple kick where others performed well. He was also poor on the tour in 2012. So as I said, this year he get's the nomination, albeit without facing a black jersey. Until he does that he falls short.

Cruden is still yet to play a losing test since being a sub in the already lost 2012. His absence this year has been telling. No one has yet outplayed him on the field...Sexton included.

To be fair Cruden doesnt have to play the All Blacks

true, but then other don't have to compete with Carter for the position either. He's done that all career.

Ah sure Sexytoes had ROG to compete with

The point about Carter playing 12 and he was doing so very well for Crusaders was Slade
was the incumbent at 10.The TEAM being more important than the individual Cruden I
suspect was still carrying an injury.

During his sabbatical/suspension, Slade incidentally was the best in NZ including Barrett
and is an outstanding goalkicker.Crusaders are blessed  with him,Carter and Tom Taylor
and he is no mug at 10 either.

emack2 wrote:The point about Carter playing 12 and he was doing so very well for Crusaders was Slade
was the incumbent at 10.The TEAM being more important than the individual Cruden I
suspect was still carrying an injury.

During his sabbatical/suspension, Slade incidentally was the best in NZ including Barrett
and is an outstanding goalkicker.Crusaders are blessed  with him,Carter and Tom Taylor
and  he is no mug at 10 either.

Not ideal though Alan. Blackadders already said the AB's won't be a consideration at 10 next year so the scenario where DC plays 10 all year, dominates the AB position then falls over in the quarters gives us a repeat of the last two Cups. he hogs the 10 position in a way that no one gets exposure then fals over, leaving the whitebait Donald scenario all over again.

Slade should be a dedicated 10 with the Highlanders to give us a best chance- Barrett, West, Cruden, DC and Slade- all playing 10 all year, fighting it out for the AB spot, and all playing sxv- the next best level. DC won't be a 12 in Hansens no. 1 side. That will be Nonu or SBW.

I see West featuring at some point, and he's a better goalkicker than Barrett and Cruden, and kicks over 50 meters. He and Cruden play a vey similar game so we would get consistency there. ust don't see DC lasting.

Carter actually hasn't really been given a chance yet and deserves one last crack,if fit he`ll
be in the squad.So I`m sure would be Cruden,Beaumont and Slade IF you start Cruden then
a goalkicker is needed.Thats Slade,Carter is not an option at 12 agreed and injuries permitting there won`t be any bolters.

A squad of 31 is lllogical standard set up is two of each positions covered plus an extra sh
and hooker.Obviously there will be some utility options in that squad to fit in players RWC`s
are won by goalkickers and dropkickers mostly after the group stage.

thats if you discount Cruden's ability to sort his goalkicking. He's kicked well before and I think theres more chance of that than Carter making it through to 2016 uninjured - that is a pipe dream. DC's his own worst enemy. He keeps saying if he can't live up to his own standards then he won't play. He's one of those strong driven thinkers and simply tries to take his body to go where his mind does and it just won't any longer. Its always all or nothing for DC, so he ends up with nothing.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

The Saint wrote:Also interesting that Biggar was MOTM and Trev has gone quiet...

Welsh pundit gives welsh player man of the match shocker.

Welsh website puts Biggar 4th best FH in world shocker.

Saint talking spheres shocker

Trev being wrong... Somehow, for me, this is not a shocker...

ABs flying under the radar with our sh*t first fives.

Hansen, you genius you.

Actually ebop I'm waiting for Walesonline to do their list of the top 10 coaches in World Rugby, Shag probably wont get a mention.

Gatty will be on top for having the biggest ($wise) contract.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Actually ebop I'm waiting for Walesonline to do their list of the top 10 coaches in World Rugby, Shag probably wont get a mention.

Gatty will be on top for having the biggest ($wise) contract.

cheika be up there?

I dont know what Cheika earns, but there was an article in Herald on Sunday suggesting that Gatland is on approx $1.5m whereas Shag is ariound half a mill, Lancaster was well ahead of Shag as well.

Taylorman wrote:...He didn't play the ABs this year so thats understandable also. He did last year, and choked a simple kick where others performed well. He was also poor on the tour in 2012. So as I said, this year he get's the nomination, albeit without facing a black jersey. Until he does that he falls short...

Still don't buy that line, Taylorman. No-one had a problem realizing Botham was one of the best in the game despite a poor record against a dominant West Indies side. Playing well against the All Blacks isn't a necessary condition for judging the quality of a player.

It's not even a sufficient condition. Nigel Redman put in a virtuoso performance when England beat New Zealand in 1993 but that doesn't make him one of our greatest ever locks.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I dont know what Cheika earns, but there was an article in Herald on Sunday suggesting that Gatland is on approx $1.5m whereas Shag is ariound half a mill, Lancaster was well ahead of Shag as well.

cheikas not in it for the buks, he's made millions making dresses or something like that.(cheap shot I know but if an individual/ ARU decision is that a non test coach can take up both the Tahs and Wallabies in a World cup year then he'd better be a good coach). So far, regardless of the reasons, that's not the case. Club rugby is not test rugby, and he's learning that very quickly.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Taylorman wrote:...He didn't play the ABs this year so thats understandable also. He did last year, and choked a simple kick where others performed well. He was also poor on the tour in 2012. So as I said, this year he get's the nomination, albeit without facing a black jersey. Until he does that he falls short...

Still don't buy that line, Taylorman. No-one had a problem realizing Botham was one of the best in the game despite a poor record against a dominant West Indies side. Playing well against the All Blacks isn't a necessary condition for judging the quality of a player.

It's not even a sufficient condition. Nigel Redman put in a virtuoso performance when England beat New Zealand in 1993 but that doesn't make him one of our greatest ever locks.

fair enough and each to his own. Thought Sexon was great versus the Boks. He actually reminds me a lot of Barrett. Similar build and game and they both have that gangly running style...awkward but effective, without looking very athletic.

Biased newspaper prints a one man subjective list and 606v2 goes mental debating it like it's an official awards list. What's wrong with you people?!

I'm shocked that you are calling Walesonline biased.

ebop wrote:I'm shocked that you are calling Walesonline biased.

Sarcasm???! If you read these boards enough you can't miss Welsh posters dismissing the paper, calling them The Fail (in reference to their previous name 'The Western Mail'), calling Andy Howell 'Andy Bowel', etc.

You'll be hard pressed to find a Welsh poster defending that paper.

All good Griff, our media are understandably as equally biased as they all are. Easy to get all indignant, when in the end, it matters nowt. Just a bit of fun.

ebop wrote:All good Griff, our media are understandably as equally biased as they all are. Easy to get all indignant, when in the end, it matters nowt. Just a bit of fun.

No worries. However, for the record the Welsh media is the most biased. Hands down!

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I dont know what Cheika earns, but there was an article in Herald on Sunday suggesting that Gatland is on approx $1.5m whereas Shag is ariound half a mill, Lancaster was well ahead of Shag as well.

There are plenty of club coaches on more than that - what's keeping Gatland in Wales?

The Great Aukster wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I dont know what Cheika earns, but there was an article in Herald on Sunday suggesting that Gatland is on approx $1.5m whereas Shag is ariound half a mill, Lancaster was well ahead of Shag as well.

There are plenty of club coaches on more than that - what's keeping Gatland in Wales?

Countless opportunities to keep getting one over on BOD, Keith Wood, and all their Guinness-drinking leprechaun cronies. #BODgotdropped

As this topic was primarily about the player that was in 4th place, and the OP couldn't even get that right, on the Forum of said player, this article has NOT even been mentioned, that's what we think of anything printed by the Eastern Fail.

Griff wrote:Biased newspaper prints a one man subjective list and 606v2 goes mental debating it like it's an official awards list. What's wrong with you people?!

Biased? Is that another word for s**t Griff?

Current NZ Rugby World - Front page picture of Danny Boy Carter - "Why Dan Carter is still the best 10 in the world"

I put it back on the shelf..almost $10 for total BS again.

Taylorman wrote:Cruden easily for me. Versus England and Oz at Eden Park layed better than any 10 this year, including Pollards one good test and Sextons AI's who gets a good year by not playing the AB's- a side he's not capable of having a good outing against...at least yet.

If anything Barrett has proved he's not a starting 10 so the lower on the list as possible for me if it means hes not going to get selected there again.
Of the AI's yes agree with Sexton.

More than happy with Cruden, Slade and I believe Ihaia West will figure strongly next year should the wheels of fortune (injury etc) go his way.

Harsh. He played very well until his botched kick at goal in the last outing.

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Cruden easily for me. Versus England and Oz at Eden Park layed better than any 10 this year, including Pollards one good test and Sextons AI's who gets a good year by not playing the AB's- a side he's not capable of having a good outing against...at least yet.

If anything Barrett has proved he's not a starting 10 so the lower on the list as possible for me if it means hes not going to get selected there again.
Of the AI's yes agree with Sexton.

More than happy with Cruden, Slade and I believe Ihaia West will figure strongly next year should the wheels of fortune (injury etc) go his way.

Harsh. He played very well until his botched kick at goal in the last outing.

unfortunately you only get remembered for the key turning point sometimes...that was one. On the other hand the AB's know of his abilities and will be focussing on keeping the lid on that one.

Few 10's have good games versus the ABs. ROG and Stephen Jones played I think 23 or so tests between them versus the ABs and usually had bad matches. That's why Pollards effort was really annoying. He easily outplayed Barrett and ran through our line at will.

Letting a 10 dictate the play is an absolute no no in test rugby- the AB's know this more than most as we have always had good 10's with Fox, Merts, Spencer to a point, Carter and Cruden basically running the show for the last 30 years. Our current crop is of a pretty good level.

Taylorman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Cruden easily for me. Versus England and Oz at Eden Park layed better than any 10 this year, including Pollards one good test and Sextons AI's who gets a good year by not playing the AB's- a side he's not capable of having a good outing against...at least yet.

If anything Barrett has proved he's not a starting 10 so the lower on the list as possible for me if it means hes not going to get selected there again.
Of the AI's yes agree with Sexton.

More than happy with Cruden, Slade and I believe Ihaia West will figure strongly next year should the wheels of fortune (injury etc) go his way.

Harsh. He played very well until his botched kick at goal in the last outing.

unfortunately you only get remembered for the key turning point sometimes...that was one. On the other hand the AB's know of his abilities and will be focussing on keeping the lid on that one.

Few 10's have good games versus the ABs. ROG and Stephen Jones played I think 23 or so tests between them versus the ABs and usually had bad matches. That's why Pollards effort was really annoying. He easily outplayed Barrett and ran through our line at will.

Letting a 10 dictate the play is an absolute no no in test rugby- the AB's know this more than most as we have always had good 10's with Fox, Merts, Spencer to a point, Carter and Cruden basically running the show for the last 30 years. Our current crop is of a pretty good level.

The thing is some teams dont use the 10 to dictate play , When Du Preez starts he's the general and dictator not his flyhalf. Same with Genia on top form especially ,so the flyhalf never looks like he's having a good game simply because he's not the one dictating play for his team.

Bullsbok wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Cruden easily for me. Versus England and Oz at Eden Park layed better than any 10 this year, including Pollards one good test and Sextons AI's who gets a good year by not playing the AB's- a side he's not capable of having a good outing against...at least yet.

If anything Barrett has proved he's not a starting 10 so the lower on the list as possible for me if it means hes not going to get selected there again.
Of the AI's yes agree with Sexton.

More than happy with Cruden, Slade and I believe Ihaia West will figure strongly next year should the wheels of fortune (injury etc) go his way.

Harsh. He played very well until his botched kick at goal in the last outing.

unfortunately you only get remembered for the key turning point sometimes...that was one. On the other hand the AB's know of his abilities and will be focussing on keeping the lid on that one.

Few 10's have good games versus the ABs. ROG and Stephen Jones played I think 23 or so tests between them versus the ABs and usually had bad matches. That's why Pollards effort was really annoying. He easily outplayed Barrett and ran through our line at will.

Letting a 10 dictate the play is an absolute no no in test rugby- the AB's know this more than most as we have always had good 10's with Fox, Merts, Spencer to a point, Carter and Cruden basically running the show for the last 30 years. Our current crop is of a pretty good level.

The thing is some teams dont use the 10 to dictate play  , When Du Preez starts he's the general and dictator not his flyhalf. Same with Genia on top form especially ,so the flyhalf never looks like he's having a good game simply because he's not the one dictating play for his team.

While that may be true it's only successful to a point. Neither of those two have been doing that for a while and it only worked in patches whereas the era's of DC Wilko, Fox, and many more great 10's over the years ran systems far more successfully and consistently than any 9. Du Preez and Genia haven't run the show for yeas and they're still playing.

Taylorman wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Cruden easily for me. Versus England and Oz at Eden Park layed better than any 10 this year, including Pollards one good test and Sextons AI's who gets a good year by not playing the AB's- a side he's not capable of having a good outing against...at least yet.

If anything Barrett has proved he's not a starting 10 so the lower on the list as possible for me if it means hes not going to get selected there again.
Of the AI's yes agree with Sexton.

More than happy with Cruden, Slade and I believe Ihaia West will figure strongly next year should the wheels of fortune (injury etc) go his way.

Harsh. He played very well until his botched kick at goal in the last outing.

unfortunately you only get remembered for the key turning point sometimes...that was one. On the other hand the AB's know of his abilities and will be focussing on keeping the lid on that one.

Few 10's have good games versus the ABs. ROG and Stephen Jones played I think 23 or so tests between them versus the ABs and usually had bad matches. That's why Pollards effort was really annoying. He easily outplayed Barrett and ran through our line at will.

Letting a 10 dictate the play is an absolute no no in test rugby- the AB's know this more than most as we have always had good 10's with Fox, Merts, Spencer to a point, Carter and Cruden basically running the show for the last 30 years. Our current crop is of a pretty good level.

The thing is some teams dont use the 10 to dictate play  , When Du Preez starts he's the general and dictator not his flyhalf. Same with Genia on top form especially ,so the flyhalf never looks like he's having a good game simply because he's not the one dictating play for his team.

While that may be true it's only successful to a point. Neither of those two have been doing that for a while and it only worked in patches whereas the era's of DC Wilko, Fox,  and many more great 10's over the years ran systems far more successfully and consistently than any 9. Du Preez and Genia haven't run the show for yeas and they're still playing.

They dont have to win to run the show thats where the issue is here. The All blacks are near unbeaten but that doesnt mean opposition halfbacks dont have blinders against them .

Butch James won the world cup in 2007

Where would he have ranked pre tournament over

Wilkinson
Larkham
Carter
Evans
Jones
Hook
O'Gara
Hernandez
Michelak

???

It is the most important position on the pitch I grant you that. But its debatable whether or not its key for the player to be world class (i.e. top 5). Its a team sport afterall.

Rather can he run the backline, how's his goal kicking? If bad, can someone else take over without compromising the team?

fa0019 wrote:Butch James won the world cup in 2007

Where would he have ranked pre tournament over

Wilkinson
Larkham
Carter
Evans
Jones
Hook
O'Gara
Hernandez
Michelak

???

It is the most important position on the pitch I grant you that. But its debatable whether or not its key for the player to be world class (i.e. top 5). Its a team sport afterall.

Rather can he run the backline, how's his goal kicking? If bad, can someone else take over without compromising the team?

i rather liked Butch , he always put Carter in check Carter was the better flyhalf to be sure but he did not pull any heroics against Butch James who always seemed to have it in for him with that trademark chest shot

Taylorman wrote:
“
Cruden easily for me. Versus England and Oz at Eden Park layed better than any 10 this year, including Pollards one good test and Sextons AI's who gets a good year by not playing the AB's- a side he's not capable of having a good outing against...at least yet.

If anything Barrett has proved he's not a starting 10 so the lower on the list as possible for me if it means hes not going to get selected there again.
Of the AI's yes agree with Sexton.

More than happy with Cruden, Slade and I believe Ihaia West will figure strongly next year should the wheels of fortune (injury etc) go his way.
That doesn't augur well for 2017 Lions then as sexton looks like first on the plane to NZ. An interesting year on that account if our boy Biggar continues to progress or do you not rate him after the last game either T'man?
”

Dontheman2 wrote:Taylorman wrote:
“
Cruden easily for me. Versus England and Oz at Eden Park layed better than any 10 this year, including Pollards one good test and Sextons AI's who gets a good year by not playing the AB's- a side he's not capable of having a good outing against...at least yet.

If anything Barrett has proved he's not a starting 10 so the lower on the list as possible for me if it means hes not going to get selected there again.
Of the AI's yes agree with Sexton.

More than happy with Cruden, Slade and I believe Ihaia West will figure strongly next year should the wheels of fortune (injury etc) go his way.
That doesn't augur well for 2017 Lions then as sexton  looks like first on the plane to NZ. An interesting year on that account if our boy Biggar continues to progress or do you not rate him after the last game either T'man?
”

Lions tours don't go well in NZ anyway I'm afraid Dontheman- 5 test wins in over 100 years or something like that.

I believe NZ is at the level the 4 country formula just doesn't work against. It has gone well against the Boks at times and usually against Oz, but the blending of 4 countries at short notice is too big an ask for the AB's at home who always play together. They've won once. England have won tests here and the other 3 sides have never won in NZ so the Lions are 'marginally' better than the sum of their parts, but here thats usually not enough.

Biggar was good but for me he's one of those names always bandies around at 10 for Wales- Hook, Biggar Priestland- theres no one claiming the position over a period now. If Biggar remains the 10 through till 2017 then no reason he shouldn't perform here but its that consistency in performance in a 10 that's critical. Sexton's the only one getting that in the NH, Farrell even going sideways a bit.

Some interesting comments Gents,Butch "NO HANDS"James don`t rate him but was
great defensively.Jimmy Cowan was the most limited 9 to play for NZ in recent years
except for one thing.He was the best defensive 9 in world rugby and shut down many
better players.

Secondly you can only really judge a 10 if he`s the playmaker behind your first choice
pack and in your first choice backline.

A fully match fit Carter with the backline picked at Eden park as Cruden if not better.
What chance did he have against Scotland the service he got from Perenara was
abysmal.Just when he was getting into his stride he was subbed going by the
numbers again.

Cruden has always needed a back up kicker mostly it was Weepu,and when he
became an AB.It certainly helped he had the then Hurricanes 9,12,13 and 14
playing with him didn't it?

The Lions was THE only viable option when first used but it has lost its relevance
somewhat.Since the tour is too short and since 2005 it has been practice shamefully
to hide test players.1959 would have been a Lions win with a decent goalkicker.

Since 1958 France and 1964,in SA and England in 1971 SA and 73 NZ proved short
one or two match tours with about 6 other games was the way to go.each of those
tours at test level at least was won by them.

Bullsbok wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Butch James won the world cup in 2007

Where would he have ranked pre tournament over

Wilkinson
Larkham
Carter
Evans
Jones
Hook
O'Gara
Hernandez
Michelak

???

It is the most important position on the pitch I grant you that. But its debatable whether or not its key for the player to be world class (i.e. top 5). Its a team sport afterall.

Rather can he run the backline, how's his goal kicking? If bad, can someone else take over without compromising the team?

I rather liked Butch, he always put Carter in check Carter was the better flyhalf to be sure but he did not pull any heroics against Butch James who always seemed to have it in for him with that trademark chest shot

look at the other world cups- Fox in 87, Lynagh in 91, 95 and 03 were actually won by the 10's there, Larkham in 99. All great 10's. The Boks Stansky and James probably not amongst the true elite being lead mainly by Joost and Du Preez around the park so along with Bullsbok's thats more of a South African thing.

In 2011 we proved it a real struggle and had to go down to our forth 10 in Donald to kick the winning goal and in 2007 DC went off in the knockout match we lost.

A strong 10, whether it be goalkicker, droppie or playmaker will be critical next year, certain of it.

The point is the goalkicker is a MUST in a RWC getting them in 5`s won`t be enough
in 2007.You had at a push McAlister,Mauger,Carter and Evans all were at least adequate
in 2011.

You had Cruden and Weepu but Weepu with a groin strain couldn't kick but for France`s
inability tokick goals on the day they won JUST.

You don`t need your playmaker to be your goalkicker too,but you need at least 2
on the park at all times to be sure.

emack2 wrote:The point is the goalkicker is a MUST in a RWC getting them in 5`s won`t be enough
in 2007.You had at a push McAlister,Mauger,Carter and Evans all were at least adequate
in 2011.

You had Cruden and Weepu but Weepu with a groin strain couldn't kick but for France`s
inability tokick goals on the day they won JUST.

You don`t need  your playmaker to be your goalkicker too,but you need at least 2
on the park at all times to be sure.

Historically yes but they've no always been needed. 87 they didn't need a goalkicker, nor 99. And drop kicks won two others albeit after the same kickers kept them in the game with penalties.

The fact that it's in the NH and slower grounds probably supports that too but in a blowout final obviously one isn't needed.

I just think think the closer matches are a reflection of the number of matches in such a short timeframe- basically, by the time two sides get to the final...they're stuffed, and high octane accuracy isn't the order for the day. And theyre also the best two sides- so as the tournament goes on longer the matches also get tougher, and the bodies more weary.

So they become a battle of attrition, goalkicks making the difference.

I think Hansen is working on that concept- the full rest he was able to give his side before the Wales match alluded to a theory that some matches can be won 'before' the match- i.e.- a fitter, more prepared team was able to finish better and more accurately against wales, than perhaps they finished the last two tours.

Taylorman wrote:

emack2 wrote:The point is the goalkicker is a MUST in a RWC getting them in 5`s won`t be enough
in 2007.You had at a push McAlister,Mauger,Carter and Evans all were at least adequate
in 2011.

You had Cruden and Weepu but Weepu with a groin strain couldn't kick but for France`s
inability tokick goals on the day they won JUST.

You don`t need  your playmaker to be your goalkicker too,but you need at least 2
on the park at all times to be sure.

Historically yes but they've no always been needed. 87 they didn't need a goalkicker, nor 99. And drop kicks won two others albeit after the same kickers kept them in the game with penalties.

The fact that it's in the NH and slower grounds probably supports that too but in a blowout final obviously one isn't needed.

I just think think the closer matches are a reflection of the number of matches in such a short timeframe- basically, by the time two sides get to the final...they're stuffed, and high octane accuracy isn't the order for the day. And theyre also the best two sides- so as the tournament goes on longer the matches also get tougher, and the bodies more weary.

So they become a battle of attrition, goalkicks making the difference.

I think Hansen is working on that concept- the full rest he was able to give his side before the Wales match alluded to a theory that some matches can be won 'before' the match- i.e.- a fitter, more prepared team was able to finish better and more accurately against wales, than perhaps they finished the last two tours.

I saw a post earlier about how Ireland are the most settled side at the end of 2014 and couldnt help thinking that might eventually count against them should injury strike . While the Blacks,Boks,Poms,Welsh,French are chopping and changing especially at flyhalf, Ireland have retained Sexton. What happens when he gets injured? The All blacks current flyhalf situation might end up being their greatest positive if it turns out they have to go to a fourth choice 10 due to injury seeing as all four flyhalf options are being given regular chances to stake a claim

Bullsbok wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

emack2 wrote:The point is the goalkicker is a MUST in a RWC getting them in 5`s won`t be enough
in 2007.You had at a push McAlister,Mauger,Carter and Evans all were at least adequate
in 2011.

You had Cruden and Weepu but Weepu with a groin strain couldn't kick but for France`s
inability tokick goals on the day they won JUST.

You don`t need  your playmaker to be your goalkicker too,but you need at least 2
on the park at all times to be sure.

Historically yes but they've no always been needed. 87 they didn't need a goalkicker, nor 99. And drop kicks won two others albeit after the same kickers kept them in the game with penalties.

The fact that it's in the NH and slower grounds probably supports that too but in a blowout final obviously one isn't needed.

I just think think the closer matches are a reflection of the number of matches in such a short timeframe- basically, by the time two sides get to the final...they're stuffed, and high octane accuracy isn't the order for the day. And theyre also the best two sides- so as the tournament goes on longer the matches also get tougher, and the bodies more weary.

So they become a battle of attrition, goalkicks making the difference.

I think Hansen is working on that concept- the full rest he was able to give his side before the Wales match alluded to a theory that some matches can be won 'before' the match- i.e.- a fitter, more prepared team was able to finish better and more accurately against wales, than perhaps they finished the last two tours.

I saw a post earlier about how Ireland are the most settled side at the end of 2014 and couldnt help thinking that might eventually count against them should injury strike . While the Blacks,Boks,Poms,Welsh,French are chopping and changing especially at flyhalf, Ireland have retained Sexton. What happens when he gets injured? The All blacks current flyhalf situation might end up being their greatest positive if it turns out they have to go to a fourth choice 10 due to injury seeing as all four flyhalf options are being given regular chances to stake a claim

Yes that's true...you just never know. At the moment we are suffering with too many 10's (relatively speaking). Our backplay isn't as consistent as it was when just DC or Cruden ran the show on their own. So its options versus consistency that is the trade off. Ireland are certainly getting consistency with Sexton...options?

Look at Oz in 2011. They played the same side week in and week out in the 3N as NZ and SA experimented, went into camp. Oz then had many key injuries and were stuffed by the time the semi was played- Cooper one of them. Mind you, our 10's dropped like flies again as well.

Madigan and Jackson have also received a lot of caps recently. Other options include former young player of the year JJ Hanrahan or Ian Keatley of Munster.

At the moment though I think only Madigan could reach Sexton's level but the problem is his coach at Leinster prefers a fairly out of form average Gopperth for some bizzare reason.

Ireland just needs to make sure Sexton is fit and ready before the worldcup, play him for 2.5 games during the pool stages after which he should be able to manage 3 games in a row. he's less injury prone than his kiwi counterparts too.

I think Ireland have had a fair few injuries and have done pretty bloody well-yes Sexton is a massively important player for them but with Ferris and BOD retiring added to O'Brien being out of the AIs then the guys they are developing along with the class of those coming back are making them very formibable indeed.

Healy was injured too.

Do people not think Biggar is in the top 10 of flyhalves in the world?

Ignoring the list.

Comfort wrote:Do people not think Biggar is in the top 10 of flyhalves in the world?

Ignoring the list.

I think he is the best in the UK, still behind Sexton, and behind some of the Southern Hemisphere stars in France, but he is deffo the best in Wales, England and Scotland.

Would like to see Biggar get an extended run at 10 from a SH point of view (albeit one living in Ireland). So the 6N will be really interesting. Think guys like Priestland and Hook have maybe been used in too many tests where I've been watching for me to get a real handle on the lad-but he is in pretty good shape at the moment. He'll certainly get more of a run into the WC than half of the players on that list-four Kiwi tens and Cooper's not exactly first choice. Lopez looks sharp as well.

LordDowlais wrote:

Comfort wrote:Do people not think Biggar is in the top 10 of flyhalves in the world?

Ignoring the list.

I think he is the best in the UK, still behind Sexton, and behind some of the Southern Hemisphere stars in France, but he is deffo the best in Wales, England and Scotland.

do you mean Giteau? cant see anyone else. Goosen has been good as well but hasnt started many games.

Farrell & perhaps Ford are better than Bigger. Farrell certainly is, Ford needs to be tested out at Int level a little more.