Half way through the pool stages what do we think of the ERCC?

First topic message reminder :

I am a feeling bit disappointed with the European tournaments this year and haven't felt engaged with them a much as with the old Heineken and Amlin.

I think much of my disillusionment is to do with the new TV contracts, I always prefer to watch live rugby but have really enjoyed Heineken weekends over the last decade with usually all 12 Heineken matches and several Amlin ones being on Sky. Admittedly this was pretty useless for those who don't have Sky, or don't have a local pub/club with it, but at least it was all in one place.

Now with there being less matches and with only half the Champions Cup being on Sky, and hardly any of the Challenge cup matches on TV at all, I have been much less engaged with the competition. This morning I was feeling quite cheerful about it being a rugby weekend but having looked at the TV schedule I can see that there is no European rugby on Sky tonight and that tomorrow the match between my own club, the blues, and London Irish isn't being televised .

Sin é wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Sin é wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:It's generally been stated (I'm not sure where, I think it's been in IRFU branch meetings or supportors meetings) that the Irish Provincial wages budgets are around the English cap. No idea if that includes the Central Contracts, I've heard it did and that it didn't (different provinces perhaps?). Also, what does around the level mean? If it was under they would have said under, right? So it's probably a bit over, and is a bit £10k? £100k? £1M? And is that still the case? Have they got lower than the English cap? Higher? Stayed the same?  The Provincial player salary budget is a complete mystery as far as I can tell. Same with the Scots. From memory the Italian superclubs had bigger player budgets than the English cap, but not 100%.

It would be great if it could happen but even then where do you put the line? With Welsh regions at £3.5M? Or the English cap £5M (or whatever it is now)? )Or the French at 10M Euros?

A simpler way to level the playing field would be a percentage of the new players salary (maybe 10%) should be payable to whatever Club/Province/Union developed them (from underage upwards).

As for provincial wages - they vary. I believe Ian Madigan is on 350K per year which is pretty good (and he isn't on a central contract).

You serious Sin!? A reserve outhalf and part time inside centre on how much?

Thats what they claim on Whiff of Cordite (and they seem to be in the know a bit). Utility backs are worth a lot.

If that is true it might be worth deleting the post before too many Welsh fans catch on. The ground breaking dual contracts got Warburton (the Welsh captain) £275k (I think), which is about the same as that (I'm presuming you gave it in €).

Cost'a living Hammer. Poor Ian finds it much harder on his pokitts buying the old loaf of bread, milk and tea than Warburton would over in UKdom Wales.

Oh, and luxury apartments and expensive motors and girlfriends.............. they don't come cheap in Dublin either! It's a terrible place to live if you want to have a bling lifestyle...

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:That pool competitivity you're citing as still being present is increasingly between French and English clubs - with some others just hanging in.

Not at all. The two most competitive pools (in terms of 3 sides still vying for top spot) that I highlighted involve:

Clermont
Saracens
Munster

and

Quins
Leinster
Wasps

For the record, I've never seen you post on here before so re. the rest of your reply I wasn't referring to you

SecretFly wrote:Cost'a living Hammer.  Poor Ian finds it much harder on his pokitts buying the old loaf of bread, milk and tea than Warburton would over in UKdom Wales.

Oh, and luxury apartments and expensive motors and girlfriends.............. they don't come cheap in Dublin either!  It's a terrible place to live if you want to have a bling lifestyle...

True. They should set up a pro team in Hull. The exact same house in Hull that I was going to buy was £100k more in Cardiff (both in similar areas) and we're not talking a big house, it was nearly double the price. With a fixed salary cap we could run riot. Although it does make more sense now, with the Dublin players needing to be kept in caviar and champaigne it must strain the budget a bit.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

And as for the 6 Nations not driving European rugby... unsuprisingly, your comment applies to your own little patch called England. Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy are all dependent upon international representative rugby to try to keep the sport competitive at the higher level. Which keeps the 6 Nations and WCs advancing as well. In other words the 6 Nations international structure is the centrifugal force of European rugby whether you happen to like that or not. (I didn't say it was the centrifugal force of English rugby.) As a Leinster supporter, it is quite clear that the Irish provinces have gotten where they are by mimicking that representative structure.

Of the fully pro teams in Europe about three quarters are in England and France and for these teams the 6N is not the driving force. So yes I dispute the idea that the 6N is the driving force of European Rugby. I accept that it is the driving force of the Pro12 teams.

I do not even think the 6N is the driving force of international rugby for all countries. For England the RWC is the aim and whilst the 6N is important it is a means to an end.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:
Irish rugby would not be where it is today if they had simply handed out random franchise names and hired professional players from anywhere.

Who is it that handed out random franchises? Certainly not England or France whose game is based on clubs many of whom have amongst the longest histories in world rugby.  My own team Gloucester have only been going since 1873 and have long been at the heart of the community.  Presumably you are refering to the Pro12 which involves many manufactured teams with no real history or support.

As for hiring players from anywhere you cannot be referring to the English clubs where English qualified players make up more than 70% of the players and this percentage is increasing.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

And as for the 6 Nations not driving European rugby... unsuprisingly, your comment applies to your own little patch called England. Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy are all dependent upon international representative rugby to try to keep the sport competitive at the higher level. Which keeps the 6 Nations and WCs advancing as well. In other words the 6 Nations international structure is the centrifugal force of European rugby whether you happen to like that or not. (I didn't say it was the centrifugal force of English rugby.) As a Leinster supporter, it is quite clear that the Irish provinces have gotten where they are by mimicking that representative structure.

Of the fully pro teams in Europe about three quarters are in England and France and for these teams the 6N is not the driving force. So yes I dispute the idea that the 6N is the driving force of European Rugby. I accept that it is the driving force of the Pro12 teams.

Hi Exiled,

As I said before... there seems to be a constant mis-hearing of what we're saying to each other!

To try and be clearer again:  England and France do not constitute "European Rugby" alone that is exactly the point! It's not that Scotland, Italy, Wales and Ireland make up European rugby either. But without those countries being competitive then "European rugby" becomes an increasingly irrelevant term and rugby becomes a more localised English and French concern as a top sport. So if the fragile forces of compromise that have allowed the "peripheral" European rugby countries to compete and develop over the last decade of professionalisation are sidelined, corroded and undermined... well then "European rugby" may well become an increasingly irrelevant term. English and French rugby will continue to do very well by such a shift... but "European rugby" which cannot sustain the same widespread hyper-professional league system will not. Of course you're free to only care about English rugby and Gloucester's great and long heritage and sneer at us apparent 'blow-ins'. But imagine a rugby world where England playing Ireland or Scotland was only as competitive as it is in rugby league... not exactly a strategy for further developing rugby as a European sport. This is why the continual sidetracking of these arguments into legal-technical debates about the Euro competition being a competition between 3 leagues seems so strange to most of us on this side - it's about the consequences not the technical debate.

Exiledinborders wrote:

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:
Irish rugby would not be where it is today if they had simply handed out random franchise names and hired professional players from anywhere.

Who is it that handed out random franchises? Certainly not England or France whose game is based on clubs many of whom have amongst the longest histories in world rugby.  My own team Gloucester have only been going since 1873 and have long been at the heart of the community.  Presumably you are refering to the Pro12 which involves many manufactured teams with no real history or support. As for hiring players from anywhere you cannot be referring to the English clubs where English qualified players make up more than 70% of the players and this percentage is increasing.

 
Again...  this shows the complete misapprehension of what is being said and the sensitivites involved. Despite your dismissive tone... I was and am... Yes...  speaking directly and specifically about the direction of the Irish provinces as clubs and the strategies for promoting and developing rugby as a sport here in Ireland. I think the misapprehension surrounding all this concerns most English club supporters beliefs that it can only be about point-scoring on you English (and some rhetoric coming from our side only reinforces that). But it really is not about claiming that Irish and Pro-12 Rugby is charitable and moral while the PRL clubs are materialistic and evil. This hyper-professionalism is an issue that cuts across rugby boundaries (as well as sport in general) and has long been a concern as regards the direction of the sport in this country. Witness the calls already emanating from within Irish rugby just this week:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/other-rugby/ferris-irfu-are-holding-provinces-back-from-success-30839724.html
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/international-rugby/is-irish-rugby-going-the-way-of-the-welsh-30839719.html

The development of the sport within Ireland and within the Provincial clubs has been a real phenomenon over the last decade. It has drawn more people into rugby than ever could have been expected. That system represented a fudged compromise between the traditional "respresentational" idea of the Provinces - which had a long history in themselves - and the professional idea of independent "franchises". They most likely would not have succeeded in Ireland in the way they have (with such strong traditional Gaelic games structures that go way back to the 19th century like Gloucester) if they had not mimicked this representational structure. This was how over 80,000 (at the time the biggest attendance for a club rugby match ever) turned out to see Leinster and Munster in 2009. It was a phenomenon because uniquely (for Ireland) you could go down to your local stadium and see one or two of the greatest professional players on the planet competing alongside a large majority of professional Irish talent that was home-bred and developing. Strange though it may seem to you, that was almost unique in Ireland (for a major international sport).

The concern is that this phenomenon (whatever it's faults) will not survive these changes. Any chance that Scotland and Italy might create an equivalent rugby renaissance or expansion through similar structures looks far more unlikely (let alone Georgia and Romania as mentioned earlier). And as the news article above illustrates, there are many in the Irish Provinces who will now want to leave behind the amateurish old ideals of representation. If they want to compete with the increasing centralisation of high-level rugby in England and France, then they will have to buy in players like any other hyper-professional side and the provinces will more and more leave behind their central role in developing Irish players at the highest standard in every position.

Nobody knows where this will end up. And many of us would actually prefer to go down the route of focusing on the development of rugby outside the concerns of the PRL and LNR and the new Champions Cup. But, unfortunately, that does not seem realistic to those closer to the action. Perhaps it will not change things all that much after all. ...But to many of us that appears unlikely. The feeling is that this may very well usher in a change of direction for the sport. And rugby as a professional game - like soccer - may well end up split between the poles of TV superstars playing in far-off, elite, post-representative leagues driven by big money on one side and peripheral, uncompetitive, untelevised, below-representative standard, local leagues on the other. By no means will that be the fault of the Champions Cup alone... In fact if, as seems very possible, competitivity begins to decline among the Pro-12 participants, then this format will no doubt come under attack again as still being too much of a compromise... But it is another big shift in that direction.

Nos na Gaoithe wrote:

Hi Exiled,

As I said before... there seems to be a constant mis-hearing of what we're saying to each other!

To try and be clearer again:  England and France do not constitute "European Rugby" a... But it is another big shift in that direction.

Yeah, yeah. Except Irish provinces will be in the knockout stages and in the final again this season. The AP teams will run out of steam as usual.

Nothing to worry about here. Move along.

I think the new format is a disgrace.  Zebre getting thumped by Gloucester instead of Northampton is clearly going to set the Italian national side back years.  Welsh teams rising to the top of their Challenge Cup pools and looking likely to make the knockout stages is no way near as beneficial to them or Wales as coming bottom of a Championship Cup pool.  And what Edinburgh really needed was to lose more games, not have a European clean sweep, that won't have done their Scottish players any good, Cotter wants them as demoralised as possible.

A fine a rosey splenetic.

Now what about them stragglers in the ERChampionsC? Would they not be better off highrolling it in the ..........ERChallengeC?

Everyone in every pool of ERCC is now going to get through to at least the semis? Yep, that's more like it, that's the way things were meant to be. Competivity right to the end

God, but some of yous love the little peoples in their little contests, playing for their little trophies - bless 'em all, the little angels. Sure won't they be loving themselves being top of the pile in a contest of shyte heaps.

secretfly that's the problem you treat the Challenge Cup with contempt because you've become too used to having top tier european rugby handed to you on a platter.

You believe top tier European rugby should be given to every Pro12 country irrespective of how good they are. A god given right - not something that must be earned........

Well maybe to ensure everyone earns their place we should exclude teams who breach their leagues salary cap rules.

beshocked wrote:secretfly that's the problem you treat the Challenge Cup with contempt because you've become too used to having top tier european rugby handed to you on a platter.

You believe top tier European rugby should be given to every Pro12 country irrespective of how good they are. A god given right - not something that must be earned........

No, you treat the Challenge Cup teams with contempt by saying they have no rights to share the top table with the better part of English and French rugby.  
You treat the smaller teams with contempt by platituding them all over the place with smarmy lines about how much they'll like having something to at least fight for and win at the bottom, in the sewer, that TV ain't interested in.  

The English and French don't mind - they never do, they have a subtantial foot in both contests (as always) so they can choose which to watch to make themselves feel good about themselves.  
"Hmmm, will I watch a little Challenge cup this weekend????  Oh it's not being Televised!  So I'll watch the BIG one then with the gold tinted lettering.... we're in that too and it's ever such a good show"

Nope, it's people like you who sneer the little peoples and their little inconsequential contests..... I sneer the competition created for them

Of course the Welsh and the Irish have never had automatic qualfication but lets not get the facts get in the way of hyperbole

NB: The Scots had it for a period of 8 years and The Italians for a total of 4 years

rodders you don't have a salary cap....perhaps every country should do the same?

secretfly telling them that they have to earn top tier rugby is showing them contempt?

You are the one demeaning the Challenge Cup by calling it a sewer and repeatedly saying it's worthless. This comes from someone who has little to no experience of the competition.

I see the challenge cup as a stepping stone. When Saracens have taken part I didn't see it as a sewer, it was the 2nd tier european competition with the aspiration being to win it.

Competition created for the "little" people? Have Munster and Ulster ever taken part? No wonder they turn their nose at such a competition. Leinster took part once from the drop down system but that's just once.

It's hard for you to understand - I get that when you've been handed top tier rugby on a platter every season it's tough to even imagine have to demean yourself by playing in the 2nd tier competition.


Geoff I am not sure if you are joking or not.

Ulster,Leinster and Munster have been in every European top tier competition every year haven't they? Connacht have never finished above those three teams. It's basically auto qualification for those 3 sides.

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:secretfly that's the problem you treat the Challenge Cup with contempt because you've become too used to having top tier european rugby handed to you on a platter.

You believe top tier European rugby should be given to every Pro12 country irrespective of how good they are. A god given right - not something that must be earned........

No, you treat the Challenge Cup teams with contempt by saying they have no rights to share the top table with the better part of English and French rugby.  
You treat the smaller teams with contempt by platituding them all over the place with smarmy lines about how much they'll like having something to at least fight for and win at the bottom, in the sewer, that TV ain't interested in.  

The English and French don't mind - they never do, they have a subtantial foot in both contests (as always) so they can choose which to watch to make themselves feel good about themselves.  
"Hmmm, will I watch a little Challenge cup this weekend????  Oh it's not being Televised!  So I'll watch the BIG one then with the gold tinted lettering.... we're in that too and it's ever such a good show"

Nope, it's people little you who sneer the little peoples and their little inconsequential contests..... I sneer the competition created for them

Fly, from my point of view as a Worcester supporter, I would be delighted if Worcs were playing in the Challenge Cup - it would be a real milestone for the club on the road to recovery. Hopefully this will be a stepping stone to eventual qualification for Champs cup although I might have to wait a while for that... For now the team is having a good run in the British and Irish cup and that will have to suffice but I don't feel that this makes Worcester one of the "little people" but rather a team building for Exeter style greatness!! Mind, to pick up on one of your points, I would feel annoyed if I can't watch my team on tv if and when they're in the Challenge Cup. I know I'm seeing this from an English perspective and that you come at it from a different angle as you feel aggrieved by the reorganisation. I'm not posting this in blind ignorance of your feelings but  because I get perplexed by the regular negativity regarding the Challenge Cup.

stub............ you have a National vested interest (a sizeable one) in both contests.  And just like in the Olympics - it might be a Welsh bowler, or an English runner, or a Scottish cyclist or a Northern Irish rider - there might be a regional aspect to the participant (Worchester for example) but the heart can't deny itself pleasure in the overall sense of Britishness.  

The same is true for rugby.  The AP is an exclusively English league.  That exclusively English league has a subtantial presence in both European contests.  It can never be the case that English rugby has less than six teams to follow in the top competition.  It doesn't matter where the English person comes from or what his local team is that he supports - even if his side doesn't make the big competition and even if his team falls away in the pools of the big competition - he always has a least five more sides to tag his allegiances onto and to place his hopes on.

It is 'European' Rugby - the National pride element IS a major factor in its success - it's another mini Olympics where people from Nations enjoy the rivalries between them.  It's not simply club - it's deeper psyhologically.

So the truth remains - whilst four Nations have had their numbers in ERChampionsCup dropped to one auto entry each - English rugby and French rugby made no compromise and keep 6 apiece.

Yes, from my perspective I can't help but see the inequality in that result.

I get that Fly - it's true that I do greatly enjoy watching competitions with English/British interest in them - wouldn't try deny that. Furthermore I can understand that a potential reduction in participants would damage that enjoyment. I was more trying to explain that from my perspective the Challenge cup has much to offer even though it's not the main event.

Noticed on another thread that you're having a Christmas break from 606 - hope that it's a good one and that Santa is kind!

Secretfly they are still taking part in European rugby though albeit not top tier.

Is it national pride? Perhaps it is for you Irish where the provinces are very much attached to the Irish rugby union but in England there's much more division between club and country.

stub wrote:I get that Fly - it's true that I do greatly enjoy watching competitions with English/British interest in them - wouldn't try deny that. Furthermore I can understand that a potential reduction in participants would damage that enjoyment. I was more trying to explain that from my perspective the Challenge cup has much to offer even though it's not the main event.

Noticed on another thread that you're having a Christmas break from 606 - hope that it's a good one and that Santa is kind!

Just about wrapped up now for the close-down ........... I need the break!!! You enjoy yourself too over the period, stub, and may the new year be good to you.