Lydiate makes first Ospreys start

First topic message reminder :

Dan Lydiate makes first Ospreys start against Scarlets on Saturday
15 Evans
14 Dirksen
13 Beck
12 Matavesi
11 Walker
10 Biggar
9 Webb
8 Ardron
7 Tipuric
6 LYDIATE
5 King
4 AWJ
3 Arhip
2 Baldwin
1 Thomas
It will be a long day at the office in the scrum tomorrow I suspect unless we can minimise that part of the game, should be a very good crowd, short of capacity but not by too much, should be a good occasion and hopefully a home win

bedfordwelsh wrote:In all honesty before North not many of our big names have gone directly to English clubs, Peel, Taylor and James are the only ones I can think of.  Peel should have still played for Wales while at Sale certainly didn't stagnate or go backwards, Taylor was coming to end of his carear and James has had very good season Bath.

The others have gone to French clubs and between them we have seen varying degrees of success.

After he left Scarlets Peel was never the same. Sale Sharks were on the wane and haven't recovered.

I was thinking of players like Martin Roberts, Martyn Thomas, etc who were not getting into the Welsh squad that often, but were good players.

Actually the players in the modern era who made the most succes in England or France was probably Rob Howley...

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:In all honesty before North not many of our big names have gone directly to English clubs, Peel, Taylor and James are the only ones I can think of.  Peel should have still played for Wales while at Sale certainly didn't stagnate or go backwards, Taylor was coming to end of his carear and James has had very good season Bath.

The others have gone to French clubs and between them we have seen varying degrees of success.

After he left Scarlets Peel was never the same. Sale Sharks were on the wane and haven't recovered.

I was thinking of players like Martin Roberts, Martyn Thomas, etc who were not getting into the Welsh squad that often, but were good players.

Actually the players in the modern era who made the most succes in England or France was probably Rob Howley...

Never rated either of those Martyns and Peel was on fire his first few seasons at Sale. Agree about Howley but you have to add Alfie and Stephen Jones to it as well as they were real successes out in France, Delve was a huge success with Bath and Gloucester as well.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:In all honesty before North not many of our big names have gone directly to English clubs, Peel, Taylor and James are the only ones I can think of.  Peel should have still played for Wales while at Sale certainly didn't stagnate or go backwards, Taylor was coming to end of his carear and James has had very good season Bath.

The others have gone to French clubs and between them we have seen varying degrees of success.

After he left Scarlets Peel was never the same. Sale Sharks were on the wane and haven't recovered.

I was thinking of players like Martin Roberts, Martyn Thomas, etc who were not getting into the Welsh squad that often, but were good players.

Actually the players in the modern era who made the most succes in England or France was probably Rob Howley...

Never rated either of those Martyns and Peel was on fire his first few seasons at Sale.  Agree about Howley but you have to add Alfie and Stephen Jones to it as well as they were real successes out in France, Delve was a huge success with Bath and Gloucester as well.

Wellies and Alfie are good points, Delve didn't play for a region before Gloucester RFC though?

Maes,

Not a Region no but wasn't he at Newport before going to Bath?  Stephen Jones only played a season for a Region

I don't buy the myth that Stevo improved by playing in France, I honestly think the perception of him improved rather than the player. Before he left he was a Scarlets flyhalf, which by definition means he is underrated by 60% of the population due to our tribalism. He went to France and got appreciation for his game. And the Welsh being Welsh decided that he must have improved if the French rate him so highly. I would even say the same applies to Alfie, to a point, although Toulouse did throw him in at fullback (and wing and centre) where as we had not tired that before.

As for George North, I think he is still developing. He was hot and cold for the Scarlets, although when he was hot it made up for the times when he was not. Personally I would have him back in a heartbeat (if we could afford him) however, I would not say that he is getting worse at the Saint, I would probably say he is developing more. But that is more to do with him being young, and naturally improving, rather than because the Aviva/Saints is a better environment to learn in than back here.

Well hopefully less will move now that the DC system is there as a net to assist holding on to our best and our mediocre players.

It is raising the quality of the game as a whole in Wales, at all levels that is the priority. We need the depth to go below to the smaller clubs.

As many sensible people rightly say, the Premiership in Wales has to be a strong league for the regions to do well. And that transfers below that level to the grassroots.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I don't buy the myth that Stevo improved by playing in France, I honestly think the perception of him improved rather than the player.  Before he left he was a Scarlets flyhalf, which by definition means he is underrated by 60% of the population due to our tribalism.  He went to France and got appreciation for his game.  And the Welsh being Welsh decided that he must have improved if the French rate him so highly.  I would even say the same applies to Alfie, to a point, although Toulouse did throw him in at fullback (and wing and centre) where as we had not tired that before.

As for George North, I think he is still developing.  He was hot and cold for the Scarlets, although when he was hot it made up for the times when he was not.  Personally I would have him back in a heartbeat (if we could afford him) however, I would not say that he is getting worse at the Saint, I would probably say he is developing more.  But that is more to do with him being young, and naturally improving, rather than because the Aviva/Saints is a better environment to learn in than back here.

SS,

I think thats a fair point on both and a lot of said that once you are out of the goldfish bowl you can relax more, that said I think both improved maybe not to the degree some may think but for me they added something to their game that was lacking when home.

Whether they simply feared the press/fans/media backlash players get in Wales who knows but in their case the move certainly worked.

maestegmafia wrote:Well hopefully less will move now that the DC system is there as a net to assist holding on to our best and our mediocre players.

It is raising the quality of the game as a whole in Wales, at all levels that is the priority. We need the depth to go below to the smaller clubs.

As many sensible people rightly say, the Premiership in Wales has to be a strong league for the regions to do well. And that transfers below that level to the grassroots.

Maes,

Wish I had you optimism but for me its still a mess and until some of the big names start signing these DCs then I remain unconvinced.  Yes I know Warbuton and Lydiate are now on them but both had very little choice but to sign.

A lot of the other stars Biggar, AWJ, Tipuric, Williams etc are all resigning for their Regions, which yes in itself is good as they are staying in Wales but who will actually sing these DCs?

bedfordwelsh wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I don't buy the myth that Stevo improved by playing in France, I honestly think the perception of him improved rather than the player.  Before he left he was a Scarlets flyhalf, which by definition means he is underrated by 60% of the population due to our tribalism.  He went to France and got appreciation for his game.  And the Welsh being Welsh decided that he must have improved if the French rate him so highly.  I would even say the same applies to Alfie, to a point, although Toulouse did throw him in at fullback (and wing and centre) where as we had not tired that before.

As for George North, I think he is still developing.  He was hot and cold for the Scarlets, although when he was hot it made up for the times when he was not.  Personally I would have him back in a heartbeat (if we could afford him) however, I would not say that he is getting worse at the Saint, I would probably say he is developing more.  But that is more to do with him being young, and naturally improving, rather than because the Aviva/Saints is a better environment to learn in than back here.

SS,

I think thats a fair point on both and a lot of said that once you are out of the goldfish bowl you can relax more, that said I think both improved maybe not to the degree some may think but for me they added something to their game that was lacking when home.

Whether they simply feared the press/fans/media backlash players get in Wales who knows but in their case the move certainly worked.

The media attention is far more concentrated in France than Wales, but neither GT or Wellies speak the language well enough to know. L'Equipe can make the Western Mail seem like a level headed well edited broad sheet at times.

But its aimed more at home based players rather than imports so they get left alone to a degree.

And lets be fair Stevo and Alfie's 'improvement' is based on the Welsh public's view of them, and how many Welsh people read L'Equipe?

Also I'm definitely with Bedford with regards the DCs at the moment, they are starting to look pretty much a gimmick. Also it is starting to look very much when the super six were going to be on CCs, and then we find out that the players were all either signing renewals or sodding off elsewhere, or Adam Jones' case going unemployed rather than signing.

wayne wrote:

TJ wrote:

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne, it wasn't that bad a tackle.  He has lifted beyond 90 degrees but not 'driven' to the ground.  Yellow was fair, and he got a slap for it too which could 'technically' have been a yellow/reversed pen.  It evened out with the tries (second one especially).

I'm sorry SS it was plenty bad enough to warrant a red, watch it again when that haze has disappeared, and to your following post I know it is What the F  

I'm with scarlet spiderman on this.  Yellow is fine..  He didn't drive him into the ground.

Just finished watching the game back, TJ, he lifted him with his legs way above his body, Evans got his hand to floor to stop the spear, the next part of his body to hit the ground was his left shoulder, DEFINATE RED, there was a communication issue between Bevan and Mitrea, it wasn't repaired until a few minutes later as was communicated by Bevan.
Why couldn't Mitrea look at the 2 F screens at either end of the field, as many other decent refs do these days and make it his own decision, I've got to say the Scarlet scrum taught us a lesson yesterday, which I was expecting, you cannot put a lightweight 2nd row behind a 5th choice loosehead, I hope Tandy has learnt his lesson here, mystified by Webbs MOTM, there were at least 3 better Ospreys on the pitch in Tipuric, AWJ and my MOTM Dan Evans as well as at least 2 Scarlets, the 2 props, finally unless Ken Owens comes back in on the weekend they should be down to their 4th and 5th choice hooker with Phillips injured and Myhill should be cited for the headbutt at the end of the game    

So Phillips is now cited, it took them long enough to fathom that out, why Myhill wasn't for his headbutt on Thomas is mystifying, unless the citing officer didn't think it was worthy of a red card

Wayne, there is a bit of moaning that Tips hasn't been cited (stamp?) amongst Scarlets fans too. But we shall see the out come of the citing to see if it was really as bad as you claim.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:And lets be fair Stevo and Alfie's 'improvement' is based on the Welsh public's view of them, and how many Welsh people read L'Equipe?

Also I'm definitely with Bedford with regards the DCs at the moment, they are starting to look pretty much a gimmick.  Also it is starting to look very much when the super six were going to be on CCs, and then we find out that the players were all either signing renewals or sodding off elsewhere, or Adam Jones' case going unemployed rather than signing.

Jones and Jenkins have both always suffered from the view that Wales must have dazzling No10s yet they have been our most successful 10s of recent times, with out them we would have lost more games than we already did.

Thomas suffered (like many have done) from his ability to play more than one position at a very high level but I think his most successful period in a Welsh shirt was when he was settled at XV. I seen him and Daf James both play centre for Bridgend against Ebbw and they ripped us to shreds at will but I don't think we ever got to see that combo in a Welsh shirt.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:And lets be fair Stevo and Alfie's 'improvement' is based on the Welsh public's view of them, and how many Welsh people read L'Equipe?

Also I'm definitely with Bedford with regards the DCs at the moment, they are starting to look pretty much a gimmick.  Also it is starting to look very much when the super six were going to be on CCs, and then we find out that the players were all either signing renewals or sodding off elsewhere, or Adam Jones' case going unemployed rather than signing.

Jones and Jenkins have both always suffered from the view that Wales must have dazzling No10s yet they have been our most successful 10s of recent times, with out them we would have lost more games than we already did.

Thomas suffered (like many have done) from his ability to play more than one position at a very high level but I think his most successful period in a Welsh shirt was when he was settled at XV.  I seen him and Daf James both play centre for Bridgend against Ebbw and they ripped us to shreds at will but I don't think we ever got to see that combo in a Welsh shirt.

Probably because Scott Gibbs and Alan Bateman were better more than anything else.

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:And lets be fair Stevo and Alfie's 'improvement' is based on the Welsh public's view of them, and how many Welsh people read L'Equipe?

Also I'm definitely with Bedford with regards the DCs at the moment, they are starting to look pretty much a gimmick.  Also it is starting to look very much when the super six were going to be on CCs, and then we find out that the players were all either signing renewals or sodding off elsewhere, or Adam Jones' case going unemployed rather than signing.

Jones and Jenkins have both always suffered from the view that Wales must have dazzling No10s yet they have been our most successful 10s of recent times, with out them we would have lost more games than we already did.

Thomas suffered (like many have done) from his ability to play more than one position at a very high level but I think his most successful period in a Welsh shirt was when he was settled at XV.  I seen him and Daf James both play centre for Bridgend against Ebbw and they ripped us to shreds at will but I don't think we ever got to see that combo in a Welsh shirt.

Probably because Scott Gibbs and Alan Bateman were better more than anything else.

Bateman still plays at quite a decent (ish) amateur level, not bad for a 95 yr old

wayne wrote:

wayne wrote:

TJ wrote:

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne, it wasn't that bad a tackle.  He has lifted beyond 90 degrees but not 'driven' to the ground.  Yellow was fair, and he got a slap for it too which could 'technically' have been a yellow/reversed pen.  It evened out with the tries (second one especially).

I'm sorry SS it was plenty bad enough to warrant a red, watch it again when that haze has disappeared, and to your following post I know it is What the F  

I'm with scarlet spiderman on this.  Yellow is fine..  He didn't drive him into the ground.

Just finished watching the game back, TJ, he lifted him with his legs way above his body, Evans got his hand to floor to stop the spear, the next part of his body to hit the ground was his left shoulder, DEFINATE RED, there was a communication issue between Bevan and Mitrea, it wasn't repaired until a few minutes later as was communicated by Bevan.
Why couldn't Mitrea look at the 2 F screens at either end of the field, as many other decent refs do these days and make it his own decision, I've got to say the Scarlet scrum taught us a lesson yesterday, which I was expecting, you cannot put a lightweight 2nd row behind a 5th choice loosehead, I hope Tandy has learnt his lesson here, mystified by Webbs MOTM, there were at least 3 better Ospreys on the pitch in Tipuric, AWJ and my MOTM Dan Evans as well as at least 2 Scarlets, the 2 props, finally unless Ken Owens comes back in on the weekend they should be down to their 4th and 5th choice hooker with Phillips injured and Myhill should be cited for the headbutt at the end of the game    

So Phillips is now cited, it took them long enough to fathom that out, why Myhill wasn't for his headbutt on Thomas is mystifying, unless the citing officer didn't think it was worthy of a red card

Two refs countless replays and a long delay for a tackle that was barely worth a penalty and now it’s a citing.... you couldn’t make it up!!!

I have no doubt that the incompetent fools who run the game in Wales will now ban the player. There were at least 3 far worse incidents in that game including a stamping but a player lifted horizontal is now worth a citing. Don’t get me wrong incidents such as O’Driscoll on the Lions tour should be stamped out but Phillips tackle although rather foolish was not in the same league.

Seagultaf wrote:

wayne wrote:

wayne wrote:

TJ wrote:

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne, it wasn't that bad a tackle.  He has lifted beyond 90 degrees but not 'driven' to the ground.  Yellow was fair, and he got a slap for it too which could 'technically' have been a yellow/reversed pen.  It evened out with the tries (second one especially).

I'm sorry SS it was plenty bad enough to warrant a red, watch it again when that haze has disappeared, and to your following post I know it is What the F  

I'm with scarlet spiderman on this.  Yellow is fine..  He didn't drive him into the ground.

Just finished watching the game back, TJ, he lifted him with his legs way above his body, Evans got his hand to floor to stop the spear, the next part of his body to hit the ground was his left shoulder, DEFINATE RED, there was a communication issue between Bevan and Mitrea, it wasn't repaired until a few minutes later as was communicated by Bevan.
Why couldn't Mitrea look at the 2 F screens at either end of the field, as many other decent refs do these days and make it his own decision, I've got to say the Scarlet scrum taught us a lesson yesterday, which I was expecting, you cannot put a lightweight 2nd row behind a 5th choice loosehead, I hope Tandy has learnt his lesson here, mystified by Webbs MOTM, there were at least 3 better Ospreys on the pitch in Tipuric, AWJ and my MOTM Dan Evans as well as at least 2 Scarlets, the 2 props, finally unless Ken Owens comes back in on the weekend they should be down to their 4th and 5th choice hooker with Phillips injured and Myhill should be cited for the headbutt at the end of the game    

So Phillips is now cited, it took them long enough to fathom that out, why Myhill wasn't for his headbutt on Thomas is mystifying, unless the citing officer didn't think it was worthy of a red card

Two refs countless replays and a long delay for a tackle that was barely worth a penalty and now it’s a citing.... you couldn’t make it up!!!

I have no doubt that the incompetent fools who run the game in Wales will now ban the player. There were at least 3 far worse incidents in that game including a stamping but a player lifted horizontal is now worth a citing. Don’t get me wrong incidents such as O’Driscoll on the Lions tour should be stamped out but Phillips tackle although rather foolish was not in the same league.

Seagul, I'm a 67 year old who is blind in one eye (Glaucoma), who very rarely criticises a Ref on the day of the match, yet because it was shown on the large screens a number of times I commented here on Saturday night, and then watched the whole game through on Sunday morning, and my initial thoughts were verified if you think that Evans was only HORIZONTAL, you are either more visually impaired than I am, or you are lying, Evans had to put his hand down first and the next part of his body to hit the ground was his left shoulder, as for two refs giving their verdict who would they be, because if Bevan was one, he is NOT a REF any more, and there were communication issues between him and Mitrea which were not repaired until after this incident, I would think Phillips was trying to make a point to the Ospreys for the way he was got shot of by us, and yes he was extremely foolish and it was dangerous, and I wouldn't mind betting he'll get away with it.

I don't think it's the worst we have seen and to be honest from my POV I thought yellow was sufficient even maybe harsh that's my view point.

However the players know (or should) know the rules these days and they know that tackles like that will generally get punished with a yellow.

wayne wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

wayne wrote:

wayne wrote:

TJ wrote:

wayne wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Wayne, it wasn't that bad a tackle.  He has lifted beyond 90 degrees but not 'driven' to the ground.  Yellow was fair, and he got a slap for it too which could 'technically' have been a yellow/reversed pen.  It evened out with the tries (second one especially).

I'm sorry SS it was plenty bad enough to warrant a red, watch it again when that haze has disappeared, and to your following post I know it is What the F  

I'm with scarlet spiderman on this.  Yellow is fine..  He didn't drive him into the ground.

Just finished watching the game back, TJ, he lifted him with his legs way above his body, Evans got his hand to floor to stop the spear, the next part of his body to hit the ground was his left shoulder, DEFINATE RED, there was a communication issue between Bevan and Mitrea, it wasn't repaired until a few minutes later as was communicated by Bevan.
Why couldn't Mitrea look at the 2 F screens at either end of the field, as many other decent refs do these days and make it his own decision, I've got to say the Scarlet scrum taught us a lesson yesterday, which I was expecting, you cannot put a lightweight 2nd row behind a 5th choice loosehead, I hope Tandy has learnt his lesson here, mystified by Webbs MOTM, there were at least 3 better Ospreys on the pitch in Tipuric, AWJ and my MOTM Dan Evans as well as at least 2 Scarlets, the 2 props, finally unless Ken Owens comes back in on the weekend they should be down to their 4th and 5th choice hooker with Phillips injured and Myhill should be cited for the headbutt at the end of the game    

So Phillips is now cited, it took them long enough to fathom that out, why Myhill wasn't for his headbutt on Thomas is mystifying, unless the citing officer didn't think it was worthy of a red card

Two refs countless replays and a long delay for a tackle that was barely worth a penalty and now it’s a citing.... you couldn’t make it up!!!

I have no doubt that the incompetent fools who run the game in Wales will now ban the player. There were at least 3 far worse incidents in that game including a stamping but a player lifted horizontal is now worth a citing. Don’t get me wrong incidents such as O’Driscoll on the Lions tour should be stamped out but Phillips tackle although rather foolish was not in the same league.

Seagul, I'm a 67 year old who is blind in one eye (Glaucoma), who very rarely criticises a Ref on the day of the match, yet because it was shown on the large screens a number of times I commented here on Saturday night, and then watched the whole game through on Sunday morning, and my initial thoughts were verified if you think that Evans was only HORIZONTAL, you are either more visually impaired than I am, or you are lying, Evans had to put his hand down first and the next part of his body to hit the ground was his left shoulder, as for two refs giving their verdict who would they be, because if Bevan was one, he is NOT a REF any more, and there were communication issues between him and Mitrea which were not repaired until after this incident, I would think Phillips was trying to make a point to the Ospreys for the way he was got shot of by us, and yes he was extremely foolish and it was dangerous, and I wouldn't mind betting he'll get away with it.  

Wayne you are clearly very emotional over this event, my opinion though stands. We saw endless replays on the TV and both the Italian and Derek Bevan (the video Ref) felt that Yellow was sufficient. My opinion remains that even that was harsh. This interpretation was introduced to outlaw "Spear Tackles" like the one on O'Driscoll on the Lions tour and Warburton in the World cup. Unfortunately in the very small minds of the old farts who administer the game, if a player is lifted 1 degree beyond horizontal, this is now deemed a Tip Tackle and they suggest this is treated in the way as a "Spear Tackle". It's not the same, its an over reaction and is spoiling the game!

As far as communication issues between the officials, yes there were, although I suspect that the Italian gentleman's command of English was the biggest issue. These problems went right through the game and included the second Ospreys try, which Bevan said should not be given, but was awarded anyway!

The one thing that we appear to agree on is that the citing commission will inevitably mess this up as they always do!

Just watched the video - the ref got it right it was a Yellow not a Red

No spear but above the horizontal

geoff999rugby wrote:Just watched the video - the ref got it right it was a Yellow not a Red

No spear but above the horizontal

3 week ban, 4 weeks normally reduced to 3 for exemplary previous behaviour, too much in my opinion, it warranted a red as I said, if he had been sent off then, I would have been happy. As I said he was trying to get a bit of his own back for the way we treated him, just a bit too exuberant.

I can't believe it warranted a ban, but I apologise to you Wayne, the citing panel say you were right, and I was wrong.

Hopefully Harry Robinson will be out and we will be forced into giving Jordan a go on again on the wing. Scott Williams and Cawdor are back though. I think we will go for, depending in injury -:

Sanjay, Tagi/Parkes, Reggie, Scott , Harry/Jordan, Priest, Aled;
Evans, Myhill, Samson, Ball, Snyman/Earle, Shingler, Cubby, Barclay
(Harris, W Jones, Rh Jones, Earle/Rawlings, McCusker/Pitman; Cawdor, Hughes, Parkes/Jordan)

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I can't believe it warranted a ban, but I apologise to you Wayne, the citing panel say you were right, and I was wrong.

Hopefully Harry Robinson will be out and we will be forced into giving Jordan a go on again on the wing.  Scott Williams and Cawdor are back though.  I think we will go for, depending in injury -:

Sanjay, Tagi/Parkes, Reggie, Scott , Harry/Jordan, Priest, Aled;
Evans, Myhill, Samson, Ball, Snyman/Earle, Shingler, Cubby, Barclay
(Harris, W Jones, Rh Jones, Earle/Rawlings, McCusker/Pitman; Cawdor, Hughes, Parkes/Jordan)

No apologies needed SS, if he had been given a red in the match it would have been enough for me as I said earlier, is Cawdor Gareth Davies, wouldn't you have preferred Shingler to Priest, I would have and who is Cubby.

Cubby is James Davies. I also think Davies (Cawdor) and Shingler are Scarlets best half-backs.

I think personally I would go for Shingler in the centre with Scott,and Rhys and Gareth Davies at halfback. King is looking aged now, and Shingler can provide reliable points,allowing Rhys to play freely. However Pivac hasn't utilised Shingler half as much as I would have expected, and with this Parkes lump here now,I doubt Shingler will feature much at all, except as a bench warmer.

Priest and Shingler is a good 10/12 combo, Williams is still a good 13. From what I've seen of Parkes so far he is unimpressive.

Whoever you play in the 9, 10, 12 and 13 positions, IMO you have to ask more pertinent questions of our midfield defence and keep our backrow honest, you undoubtedly have the best of the front row exchanges, but that was the only facet of last weeks game where you had superiority, other parts of your game really need to step up to the mark.