Bath and Slammin Sam

Is it me or are the Bath half backs deliberately trying to freeze out Slammin Sam? In the limited time he has played I think they have passed the ball to him about 3 times in total. When I coached you always wanted to use your strengths in the team. Bath seem happy to use Sam as a decoy runner or simply just ignore him. That Bath coach needs his bumps felt. Is the Bath coach suffering from some kind of jealousy problem? The owner must wonder why on earth he went to all the trouble to get him. Never mind the money spent. Give Sam the blinking ball for goodness sake.

It's you

Very much you.

Bath are trying to use him but it's early days. Sometimes he's a decoy, so he's not supposed to always get the ball. During the last match, it was unfortunate that he came on just as the game got dragged into a series of dud set pieces, in stark contrast to the helter skelter play during the rest of the match. I did notice that he wasn't always quick enough to get back into position, which isn't too surprising given how new the experience is for him.

I think he needs to start some more games, otherwise he will never learn.  Coming on with 10 minutes left seems to achive nothing.

He's already started 1 euro game and also some a league fixtures

And an A league game?

Two a league games I think. One at 6 one at 12

He scored a try on one, it made the BBC news and everything.

I think they are using him when needed but he's also being used as an extra flanker in the backs to hit rucks and tackle the oppositions big boys, basically he's brad Barrett mkII

He's played a full game against Monpellier and two full A league games the last one against Exeter Braves last week, where he played his best game so far as a blindside flanker. The win means bath make the semi's of the A league so thats at least another full 80 for Sam on Monday night. Baths next few games are below and how much gametime sams likely to get IMO.

04/01/15 Leicester AVIVA Premiership  - 0/10 mins
05/1/15 WORCESTER CAVALIERS  v BATH UNITED - full 80
10/01/15 Wasps AVIVA Premiership  - 10/15 mins
18/01/15 Toulouse European Rugby Champions Cup - 10/15 mins
25/01/15 Glasgow Warriors European Rugby Champions Cup-10/15 mins
31/01/15 Harlequins LV= Cup  - full 80
07/02/15 Ospreys LV= Cup- full 80

Hopefully we will win the semis against worcester in the A league game and there will be another full 80 in January as well. Bath are doing a commendable job with him so far and with the sheer weight of media/public attention and expectation both club and player will come in for some stick in the early days. Stu lancaster watched the A league game last week and afterwards said he was impressed with Sam so far and mentioned the Saxons game again. He's definitely shaping up to be a blindside flanker, he just loves the physical stuff (and he's good at it !)

I really can't see him having an international career at 6. His size and power make him stand out at centre, but at 6 he's up against the likes of Wood, Croft (who is probably quicker than him as well), Haskell, Clark and potentially Robshaw as well (if a true openside emerges).

If he sticks at 6 he'll be back in league by next year.

We'll see, 2015 RWC is probably too soon in either position in my opinion. Sam has the same physical characteristics as the most successful league convert ever...Brad Thorn, at 6ft 5, 18 odd stone and also has a similar level of mental grit. He is bigger than Haskell, Clark and Wood and much heavier and more robust than Croft. If Brad Thorn can learn to hit rucks and jump at a lineout then Sam will pick it up. At inside centre his speed and handling will be competent but not great at Blindside he doesn't have to worry about being a creative player but can use his size, strength and power all over the field as he loves the rough stuff.

Well I hope you're right, I just don't see it myself.

I think he can convert successfully he's clearly got a lot of talent. I just think he's only going to be ready for a union season by the summer and that'll leave him a year short of being ready for the RWC.

He certainly brings more physicality than any if the current flanker options in the EPS. The players already in there offer a viable lineout option and are all better at the breakdown though. Be interesting to see where he'd fit in given neither the backrow nor the midfield look balanced currently.

I would personally have him focus at 12, and get him into the SBW mould of an offloading centre/defensive rock.

Still, he's a fantastic athlete, seems a smart bloke and hard as nails. I wish him all the best.

I dont think we want him at 12 long term (and it doesnt seem to be ideal for him either) but its the best position for him to get experience in now. I think we have better options (and prospective options) at 12, but at 6 or maybe even 8 he could be something really special.

This RWC is almost certainly too much of an ask, and he had to know that when he switched codes. He doesn't seem to be in the catagory of league players who switched because they thought Union would be easy, found it wasn't and switched back.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I would personally have him focus at 12, and get him into the SBW mould of an offloading centre/defensive rock.

Still, he's a fantastic athlete, seems a smart bloke and hard as nails. I wish him all the best.

Why would Bath want to do this when they have the exciting combination of Eastmond and Joseph in the centres? I think it would be mad to split them up.

To the OP, there is a lot more to rugby than just giving the ball to your biggest player..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:I would personally have him focus at 12, and get him into the SBW mould of an offloading centre/defensive rock.

Still, he's a fantastic athlete, seems a smart bloke and hard as nails. I wish him all the best.

Why would Bath want to do this when they have the exciting combination of Eastmond and Joseph in the centres? I think it would be mad to split them up.

To the OP, there is a lot more to rugby than just giving the ball to your biggest player..

Clubs have been known to have more than one option in each position, and Burgess/Devoto could provide an excellent alternative to Eastmond/Joseph.

You could also similarly point out that Bath have decent backrow options as well, with Fearns, Garvey, Louw, Mercer and Houston. Who is Burgess going to oust?

You are absolutely correct - it's not just about picking a big bloke and letting him get on with it. But SBW is a good example of how having a big bloke in the centres can really work for you if you deploy their strengths correctly. No reason why Burgess can't become another SBW or Jauzion if coached properly.

Still, I'm a huge fan of Eastmond and Bath have a top class midfield going on with Ford, Eastmond and Joseph, and I do not think Burgess should break it up until he can prove himself at reserve level.

SBW is actually smaller and lighter than Burgess ! and some comments have been made regarding SBW's lack of top end pace which centres really need, SBW obviously makes up for it by unrivalled offloading and physical presence but Burgess is probably slower and his off loading isn't as good.  With bath I agree that at inside centre we have Devoto and Eastmond who are pure class and I i doubt Burgess will surpass them in playmaking talent. In the backrow we have
Louw, Houston, Garvey (1st choice)
Mercer/Sisi, Alfie, Fearns (2nd Choice)

I would see Garvey as a must start but he can play 2nd row so a shift there is possible with Garvey and Attwood in the engine room. Fearns is always getting injured, Louw is away alot with South Africa and Mercer is down the pecking order so i can see Burgess getting game time in the 6 shirt.  

My ideal for next year would be

Auterac Webber Wilson
Garvey, Attwood
Burgess, Vermeulen, Louw
Matawalu, Ford
Roko, EAstmond Joseph, Agulla
Watson  

Subs: Catt, Batty, Thomas, Hooper, Fearns

Bath with a million pound backrow there. That would look intimidating on the team sheet.

Just went on a league forum to see how they are reacting to the whole SB switching codes thing. They really do have more of their fare share of bitter and twisted types.

It's quite funny really.

Burgess starts at 13 outside Eastmond tomorrow

Have to admit, Burgess does attract a lot of attention, and I think a lot of people are interested to watch his progress.  Not attracting attention similar to SBW, but simply to see if he can play the game and then play it at a high level.  Interested as a club opponent and as an England supporter.

By the way, what are the League forums saying? They feel betrayed? Or just another jump for more cash?

doctor_grey wrote:Have to admit, Burgess does attract a lot of attention, and I think a lot of people are interested to watch his progress.  Not attracting attention similar to SBW, but simply to see if he can play the game and then play it at a high level.  Interested as a club opponent and as an England supporter.

By the way, what are the League forums saying?  They feel betrayed?  Or just another jump for more cash?

Jump for cash mainly, with some comments about SB doing it to manage his future career better as Union wont be as tough on his body as League is

Other stuff consists of derision applied to any comment about union being hard to master/ being appalled by how little he is doing in Union compared to what he would be doing in League/ the usual contempt for the size of international Union compared to the might of League. Some of the stuff makes me very grateful for League keeping the worst of those guys off Union forums like this.

The most interesting thing I saw was along the lines of how perfect his skill set is for a league forward (possibly the best in the world when he left) but questioning how transferable these skills are to Union.

(Personally I don't have a problem with League, just find it on average more boring and repetative than Union. I think a lot depends on if you prefer your players to cuddle the opposition or the ground)

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Have to admit, Burgess does attract a lot of attention, and I think a lot of people are interested to watch his progress.  Not attracting attention similar to SBW, but simply to see if he can play the game and then play it at a high level.  Interested as a club opponent and as an England supporter.

By the way, what are the League forums saying?  They feel betrayed?  Or just another jump for more cash?

Jump for cash mainly, with some comments about SB doing it to manage his future career better as Union wont be as tough on his body as League is

Other stuff consists of derision applied to any comment about union being hard to master/ being appalled by how little he is doing in Union compared to what he would be doing in League/ the usual contempt for the size of international Union compared to the might of League. Some of the stuff makes me very grateful for League keeping the worst of those guys off Union forums like this.

The most interesting thing I saw was along the lines of how perfect his skill set is for a league forward (possibly the best in the world when he left) but questioning how transferable these skills are to Union.

(Personally I don't have a problem with League, just find it on average more boring and repetative than Union. I think a lot depends on if you prefer your players to cuddle the opposition or the ground)

Thanks, mate.  I am not much of a League guy either, for the same reasons as you.  I might watch the occasional State of Origin only because one of my mates here is an Aussie who played both League and Union, and he doesn't like to watch alone.

I have always felt the two sports take a different kind of toll on the body, despite some similarities between them:  League as the mid-point between Rugby Union and American Football.  From a physicality point of view, just different, neither as harder or easier.  But essentially supporters of each sport will prefer their own and portray their own sport as more difficult or challenging.    

On a slightly different subject, as Rugby Union continues to grow and attract more money and better athletes, pays increasingly higher salaries, and continues its global growth, I wonder about the long term viability of League as a proper professional sport, at least in UK - a regional sport in a country which is really not so large.  Frankly, I wonder if it can survive anywhere outside Australia.

He's starting at 13 on Sunday. Let's hope they pass the blinking ball to him.

englandglory4ever wrote:He's starting at 13 on Sunday. Let's hope they pass the blinking ball to him.

They did and he made no impact.

Slightly unfair as once Eastmond went off the whole Bath backline made no impact.

He did score a nice try though.

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Have to admit, Burgess does attract a lot of attention, and I think a lot of people are interested to watch his progress.  Not attracting attention similar to SBW, but simply to see if he can play the game and then play it at a high level.  Interested as a club opponent and as an England supporter.

By the way, what are the League forums saying?  They feel betrayed?  Or just another jump for more cash?

Jump for cash mainly, with some comments about SB doing it to manage his future career better as Union wont be as tough on his body as League is

Other stuff consists of derision applied to any comment about union being hard to master/ being appalled by how little he is doing in Union compared to what he would be doing in League/ the usual contempt for the size of international Union compared to the might of League. Some of the stuff makes me very grateful for League keeping the worst of those guys off Union forums like this.

The most interesting thing I saw was along the lines of how perfect his skill set is for a league forward (possibly the best in the world when he left) but questioning how transferable these skills are to Union.

(Personally I don't have a problem with League, just find it on average more boring and repetative than Union. I think a lot depends on if you prefer your players to cuddle the opposition or the ground)

Thanks, mate.  I am not much of a League guy either, for the same reasons as you.  I might watch the occasional State of Origin only because one of my mates here is an Aussie who played both League and Union, and he doesn't like to watch alone.

I have always felt the two sports take a different kind of toll on the body, despite some similarities between them:  League as the mid-point between Rugby Union and American Football.  From a physicality point of view, just different, neither as harder or easier.  But essentially supporters of each sport will prefer their own and portray their own sport as more difficult or challenging.    

On a slightly different subject, as Rugby Union continues to grow and attract more money and better athletes, pays increasingly higher salaries, and continues its global growth, I wonder about the long term viability of League as a proper professional sport, at least in UK - a regional sport in a country which is really not so large.  Frankly, I wonder if it can survive anywhere outside Australia.

I have been saything this to a mate of mine who supports League for a while. Have both Salford and Bradford had financial trouble lately? Union seems to have a good amount of growing to go for the next decade at least. It would seem that if you want to make a decent living or play in the Olympics then switchig to Union may be the best option in the future. I doubt the sport will die but i think it has some really tough times ahead and if Sky ever pulled the plug then i could well see it becoming an average salary sport in the UK.

Coleman wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Have to admit, Burgess does attract a lot of attention, and I think a lot of people are interested to watch his progress.  Not attracting attention similar to SBW, but simply to see if he can play the game and then play it at a high level.  Interested as a club opponent and as an England supporter.

By the way, what are the League forums saying?  They feel betrayed?  Or just another jump for more cash?

Jump for cash mainly, with some comments about SB doing it to manage his future career better as Union wont be as tough on his body as League is

Other stuff consists of derision applied to any comment about union being hard to master/ being appalled by how little he is doing in Union compared to what he would be doing in League/ the usual contempt for the size of international Union compared to the might of League. Some of the stuff makes me very grateful for League keeping the worst of those guys off Union forums like this.

The most interesting thing I saw was along the lines of how perfect his skill set is for a league forward (possibly the best in the world when he left) but questioning how transferable these skills are to Union.

(Personally I don't have a problem with League, just find it on average more boring and repetative than Union. I think a lot depends on if you prefer your players to cuddle the opposition or the ground)

Thanks, mate.  I am not much of a League guy either, for the same reasons as you.  I might watch the occasional State of Origin only because one of my mates here is an Aussie who played both League and Union, and he doesn't like to watch alone.

I have always felt the two sports take a different kind of toll on the body, despite some similarities between them:  League as the mid-point between Rugby Union and American Football.  From a physicality point of view, just different, neither as harder or easier.  But essentially supporters of each sport will prefer their own and portray their own sport as more difficult or challenging.    

On a slightly different subject, as Rugby Union continues to grow and attract more money and better athletes, pays increasingly higher salaries, and continues its global growth, I wonder about the long term viability of League as a proper professional sport, at least in UK - a regional sport in a country which is really not so large.  Frankly, I wonder if it can survive anywhere outside Australia.

I have been saything this to a mate of mine who supports League for a while. Have both Salford and Bradford had financial trouble lately? Union seems to have a good amount of growing to go for the next decade at least. It would seem that if you want to make a decent living or play in the Olympics then switchig to Union may be the best option in the future. I doubt the sport will die but i think it has some really tough times ahead and if Sky ever pulled the plug then i could well see it becoming an average salary sport in the UK.

Much as I find League dull and limited I doubt that it will have real problems due to any growth of rugby. The opportunities to transfer to rugby are really limited to three positions. Even there more probably fail to learn the complexities of rugby than succeed.

He's in an article on the Beeb again.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30678502

Union harder to learn than expected, and he doesnt like lineouts (doesnt understand them)

I thought Burgess had a good game on Sunday. A pretty good performance up against a determined Tigers side. The apprentice is doing well.

lostinwales wrote:He's in an article on the Beeb again.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30678502

Union harder to learn than expected, and he doesnt like lineouts (doesnt understand them)

Nice interview. I have been watching him with interest. Bath seem to me to be introducing him in the right way and he seems to have done OK so far

He is good at saying the right thing and does seem to have a great attitude.

I think the biggest issue is time. The RWC is almost certainly too soon.

I think he'd be a legend in League, in Union he'll be a very, very good 6...but in 2 years minimum. He'd be an average to good 12 i think.

In the meantime, I know this won't be popular but I think Haskell is our best 6 for the World Cup by some way.

Hood83 wrote:
In the meantime, I know this won't be popular but I think Haskell is our best 6 for the World Cup by some way.

Don't know why that wouldn't be popular, on form Haskell is the best English backrower playing and has been for the majority of the season. Best English captain in the league too.

Well he (Haskell) needs to do better when given a chance.

Too true, the Hask has been about for many a year but his outstanding performances in a white shirt have been few. His form at club is outstanding at the moment and its a real shame this bug hit him hard before the AI's as that was his chance to wrestle the shirt from Wood. Hask needs to smash it now at the Six nations to out perform Wood, but im glad he's a nailed on squad man now as his leadership, experience and ability to boost morale will be an asset in the world cup. RWC backrow players ?
Robshaw
Wood
Morgan
Haskell
Vunipola and one of...

Johnson,Clark,Kvesic,Fraser,Armitage,Croft ...bloomin competitive !

Sounds about right. I was pretty dissapointed during the AI but it's not far to judge too much on that given his bug, as you said. I have a feeling it'll be Clark. That way they two 8 that are similar and 4 flankers that are similar.

Before the AI's wasn't Hask's last run of games the '13(?) 6N's where he partnered Robshaw and was very impressive?

Yeah and in the WC before he got bizarrely replaced I thought he was playing very well as well. I think he's been better for England than is sometimes credited.

Especially as to be recognized as good in the 6 role you have to be almost invisible on the pitch (doing the dark arts) wwooooooo

TJ wrote:

lostinwales wrote:He's in an article on the Beeb again.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30678502

Union harder to learn than expected, and he doesnt like lineouts (doesnt understand them)

Nice interview.  I have been watching him with interest.  Bath seem to me to be introducing him in the right way and he seems to have done OK so far

I think hes done well too. Looks a bit perplexed at time with the breakdown but has made good yards in contact as expected and defended well - which is subtly impressive because I'm sure hes been targetted by the oppostition.

If that try had of been awarded there might be a more positve slant on his performances so far - he brushed Tait off like he was nothing, so it shows his potential.

I suppose given his rep expectations are huge and everything he does, or doesn't, is heavily scrutinised. Measuring his performances so far you'd say he looks a good solid RU player already but unfortunately for him he's going to be judged against Sonny Bill Williams and expected to looks spectacular and stand out each time he plays.

yappysnap wrote:Before the AI's wasn't Hask's last run of games the '13(?) 6N's where he partnered Robshaw and was very impressive?

Not run of games I don't think. Morgan got injured against Scotland, so Haskell played 6 v Ireland the following week with Wood shifting to 8, but they also messed around with Lawes and Croft at 6 during that series.

rodders wrote:

TJ wrote:

lostinwales wrote:He's in an article on the Beeb again.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30678502

Union harder to learn than expected, and he doesnt like lineouts (doesnt understand them)

Nice interview.  I have been watching him with interest.  Bath seem to me to be introducing him in the right way and he seems to have done OK so far

I think hes done well too. Looks a bit perplexed at time with the breakdown but has made good yards in contact as expected and defended well - which is subtly impressive because I'm sure hes been targetted by the oppostition.

If that try had of been awarded there might be a more positve slant on his performances so far - he brushed Tait off like he was nothing, so it shows his potential.

I suppose given his rep expectations are huge and everything he does, or doesn't, is heavily scrutinised. Measuring his performances so far you'd say he looks a good solid RU player already but unfortunately for him he's going to be judged against Sonny Bill Williams and expected to looks spectacular and stand out each time he plays.

People forget that Sonny Bill had that whole season at Toulon, where he was pretty quiet, learning the game from Wilko. It took him a bit of time after that first season until he started playing the superstar stuff

Exactly, whereas Sam is right on the radar in England - should have sent him over to Ulster sure no one watches the pro12 ...

I reckon if it wasn't for this pipe dream of him playing in the world cup, we might have even seen him playing games for a club like Bedford (not sure if Bath have a relationship with a similar team as Leicester do with Bedford)

I think you're right BamBam. Definitely overhyped his arrival

Scored a try today against Wasps.

Burgess had a good game today, hard man to stop !