Has anyone changed their opinion of the new European competition since it started?

First topic message reminder :

Getting away from the point scoring exercises on the other thread, have the games or the way the quarter finalists panned out actually made anyone change their opinion of the competition from before it kicked off?

It hasn't been a good year for the Pro12 but I don't think that is connected with the competition itself, more the natural cycles of sporting ups and downs.

Don t be that person!

TJ wrote:Sine - I guess we have prodded them enough now.  the nonsense is exposed.  Don't try to defend googles tax arrangements tho

I'm not going to defend Google's tax arrangements anywhere. Its up to the British Gov. to sort out their own legislation to deal with any issues they have with Google in the UK. Maybe they could also have a look at the tax arrangements in Isle of Man and Jersey before criticising Ireland

Sin é wrote:

TJ wrote:Sine - I guess we have prodded them enough now.  the nonsense is exposed.  Don't try to defend googles tax arrangements tho

I'm not going to defend Google's tax arrangements anywhere. Its up to the British Gov. to sort out their own legislation to deal with any issues they have with Google in the UK.  Maybe they could also have a look at the tax arrangements in Isle of Man and Jersey before criticising Ireland

Maybe they could also look at the French Nuclear Power company (EDF) that got the go ahead recently to build a power plant in England with Heavy British Government support. 'Tax' is a word - Government assistance to companies is the topic. Let's open the books on all Eiuropean nations and see where a host of creative accounting mechanisms diguise lots of Governmental inducements. Oops.... no way...can't make the 'markets' nervous again - better to find a mat to sweep all that stuff under.

Sin é wrote:

TJ wrote:Sine - I guess we have prodded them enough now.  the nonsense is exposed.  Don't try to defend googles tax arrangements tho

I'm not going to defend Google's tax arrangements anywhere. Its up to the British Gov. to sort out their own legislation to deal with any issues they have with Google in the UK.  Maybe they could also have a look at the tax arrangements in Isle of Man and Jersey before criticising Ireland

it's not called a "double irish" for nothing.

it is Ireland's taxes that need looking at, not the UK's. Ireland is providing the loophole, not the UK.

I point you to my comments above Quins.  The UK aren't above 'assisting' to induce......... and neither are any of the rest of them.  I'll believe in a purity of aboveboardness when a total audit is done on all forms of inducement all across Europe.  I'm mightily sick taking governmental lessons from our 'helpful' European neighbours.

Government isn't a hobby, it's a competition - and we're all involved in that one for our own self-serving interests.  And Ireland does its business in its way to protect its interests - as China does, as the UK does, as Germany does, as the US does.  Only problem Ireland has is that the rest of you guys don't like the competition and think a bit of muscle pressure might scare us off...and keep us thinking small like we're meant to think.    

It won't.  We'll just keep getting more creative in how we play the 'market' game...just like the rest of you.  You're no saints now...are yis?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Don t be that person!

:-)

SecretFly wrote:I point you to my comments above Quins.  The UK aren't above 'assisting' to induce......... and neither are any of the rest of them.  I'll believe in a purity of aboveboardness when a total audit is done on all forms of inducement all across Europe.  I'm mightily sick taking governmental lessons from our 'helpful' European neighbours.

Government isn't a hobby, it's a competition - and we're all involved in that one for our own self-serving interests.  And Ireland does its business in its way to protect its interests - as China does, as the UK does, as Germany does, as the US does.  Only problem Ireland has is that the rest of you guys don't like the competition and think a bit of muscle pressure might scare us off...and keep us thinking small like we're meant to think.    

It won't.  We'll just keep getting more creative in how we play the 'market' game...just like the rest of you.  You're no saints now...are yis?

it would be a competition if everyone was competing. But its not. Ireland is part of the EU and the Euro so will have to play by the rules of the club now everyone has realised quite how badly Ireland was allowing companies to cheat the rest of the club. You cant claim its all healthy competition if Ireland is screwing over its supposed partners. Luxembourg too.

Anyway, it wont be allowed to continue or happen again.

its not Ireland that is the problem - its companies exporting their profits thats the problem and the answer is in legislation like they have in the states. If companies there act like Google and Starbucks and export all their profits using "licensing fees" or similar devices then the US government simply taxes on turnover.

actually the US govt doesnt do that.

the problem is precisely countries like Ireland and Luxembourg offering sweetheart deals that cost the rest of the EU billions in lost taxes, in exchange for low tens of millions of boost to the celtic tiger. If companies want to do business in the EU, then all nations need to play by the same tax rules for profits generated in each others countries.

thing is, Apple and Google are US companies that make lots of profits in the US, so they do pay fair US taxes on their US proft. it's their overseas profit where they take the p1ss.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/11/25/can-we-please-get-this-straight-apple-and-google-do-not-avoid-us-corporate-tax/

I always find this place interesting, we seem to have a debate on cross border tax evasion going on here and one on eugenics going on on the Scotland France thread. Can we start another Welsh civil war to get back to something vaguely rugby related, or villageist depending on your point of view.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

TJ wrote:Sine - I guess we have prodded them enough now.  the nonsense is exposed.  Don't try to defend googles tax arrangements tho

I'm not going to defend Google's tax arrangements anywhere. Its up to the British Gov. to sort out their own legislation to deal with any issues they have with Google in the UK.  Maybe they could also have a look at the tax arrangements in Isle of Man and Jersey before criticising Ireland

Maybe they could also look at the French Nuclear Power company (EDF) that got the go ahead recently to build a power plant in England with Heavy British Government support.  'Tax' is a word - Government assistance to companies is the topic.  Let's open the books on all Eiuropean nations and see where a host of creative accounting mechanisms diguise lots of Governmental inducements.  Oops.... no way...can't make the 'markets' nervous again - better to find a mat to sweep all that stuff under.

The UK government in order to ensure security of power supplies is guaranteeing a price for EDF to produce power in the future. That in no way harms another country.

Ireland and Luxembourg are helping companies avoid tax in the UK. It may be legal but it is not right. Even worse is that when Ireland had problems the UK helped bail it out. So Ireland screws the UK taxpayer and then expects the UK taxpayer to save it. Nice!

The UK taxpayer is ending up subsidising the french Electricity consumer - thats the issue. ONly one company was even interested in building this plant, Tories refuse on ideological grounds to have it built by the state so EDF had them over a barrel. EDF is partly state owned by the French state so the French government and French consumers will benefit from our government overpaying for Electricity from this plant

Exiledinborders wrote:Even worse is that when Ireland had problems the UK helped bail it out. So Ireland screws the UK taxpayer and then expects the UK taxpayer to save it. Nice!

Settle down. The global banking system is inextricably linked. I was working in London/Dublin in finance at the time and was intimately involved with many of this and the UK "bailout" of Ireland, was done to protect UK's banking industry from their own over-exposure to Irish banks. The irish tax payer has paid more per capita to bail out not just Irish banks, but the bond traders across europe then the UK, and have no need to be lectured after 8 years of misery.

doesnt change the fact that the irish govt of the time cut deals with big corporates like apple and google, which as they come to the light of day now, are disgraceful, immoral and incompetent.

the UK "lent", fully expecting to be repaid in full, about GBP7bn. they did so because the UK is not part of the ECB and so had no exposure to the EUR90bn ECB bailout of Irish banks, and wanted to show solidarity. Nothing to do with protecting the UK banking industry.

wonder how much tax apple and google have avoided paying in the UK as a result of this irish arrangement over the past 10 years....GBP10-20bn i reckon.

quinsforever wrote: wanted to show solidarity. Nothing to do with protecting the UK banking industry..

Hilarious...

so how did the UK's lending differentiate itself from the ECB's to target specifically its own banks as you allege? was it senior, was it to particular banks that the UK banks had exposure? No. you obviously dont understand how bank credit and creditors work. stick to inter-dealer-broking. it was part of the ECB and IMF package.

The UK lent far more money to its own banks that had their own subsidiaries in Ireland. RBS, Lloyds. That is what prevented issues for the UK banks. Nothing to do with the troika lending to Irish banks that were not owned by UK banks.

i would say stick to rugby. but i've seen the one-eyed tat you come out with there.

Don't worry.... be happy Quins A win needs a smile.

cheers fly. am very happy. i always separate business from pleasure. investing and lending is my business. rugby is my pleasure/torture.

quinsforever wrote:so how did the UK's lending differentiate itself from the ECB's to target specifically its own banks as you allege? was it senior, was it to particular banks that the UK banks had exposure? No. you obviously dont understand how bank credit and creditors work. stick to inter-dealer-broking. it was part of the ECB and IMF package.

The UK lent far more money to its own banks that had their own subsidiaries in Ireland. RBS, Lloyds. That is what prevented issues for the UK banks. Nothing to do with the troika lending to Irish banks that were not owned by UK banks.

i would say stick to rugby. but i've seen the one-eyed tat you come out with there.

Ah you were serious! I thought it was just your usual high skilled wumming. Well, its too large a subject to educate you on via message board. Maybe read up a bit more on it and don't go to your usual information sources to get the proper picture. Goodluck! Well done on the saxons win!

quinsforever wrote:cheers fly. am very happy. i always separate business from pleasure. investing and lending is my business. rugby is my pleasure/torture.

An Irishman's Natural Enemy in recent years Congrats on the win. Deserved.

BoE deputy governor a good source?

quinsforever wrote:BoE deputy governor a good source?

As good a source as any Banker and they're another suspicious bunch after the world meltdown.

wolfball wrote:

quinsforever wrote: wanted to show solidarity. Nothing to do with protecting the UK banking industry..

Hilarious...

Indeed it is. the BOE had no choice but to lend to ireland

You are all talking nonsense... George Osborne made the decision to lend to Ireland because he's an Irish aristocrat and heir to the Osborne Baroncracy which inludes huge amount of land and property in waterford.

Exiledinborders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

TJ wrote:Sine - I guess we have prodded them enough now.  the nonsense is exposed.  Don't try to defend googles tax arrangements tho

I'm not going to defend Google's tax arrangements anywhere. Its up to the British Gov. to sort out their own legislation to deal with any issues they have with Google in the UK.  Maybe they could also have a look at the tax arrangements in Isle of Man and Jersey before criticising Ireland

Maybe they could also look at the French Nuclear Power company (EDF) that got the go ahead recently to build a power plant in England with Heavy British Government support.  'Tax' is a word - Government assistance to companies is the topic.  Let's open the books on all Eiuropean nations and see where a host of creative accounting mechanisms diguise lots of Governmental inducements.  Oops.... no way...can't make the 'markets' nervous again - better to find a mat to sweep all that stuff under.

The UK government in order to ensure security of power supplies is guaranteeing a price for EDF to produce power in the future.  That in no way harms another country.

Ireland and Luxembourg are helping companies avoid tax in the UK.  It may be legal but it is not right. Even worse is that when Ireland had problems the UK helped bail it out. So Ireland screws the UK taxpayer and then expects the UK taxpayer to save it. Nice!

Bank guarantees and 'bailouts' have served to "screw" the taxpayers of only one nation and it's not Great Britain. Figures published a few years ago showed that Ireland had the highest cost of the European Banking Crisis per capita at nearly €9,000. The next highest was Germany at $491. The idea that money was lent for any reason that was not self-serving in some way is, as wolfball pointed out, laughable.

Engine#4 wrote:
Bank guarantees and 'bailouts' have served to "screw" the taxpayers of only one nation and it's not Great Britain. Figures published a few years ago showed that Ireland had the highest cost of the European Banking Crisis per capita at nearly €9,000.  The next highest was Germany at $491.  The idea that money was lent for any reason that was not self-serving in some way is, as wolfball pointed out, laughable.

You found the figures I was after but couldn't find... But ye know quins is just having a nice wum on this so best not to bother

wolfball wrote:

Engine#4 wrote:
Bank guarantees and 'bailouts' have served to "screw" the taxpayers of only one nation and it's not Great Britain. Figures published a few years ago showed that Ireland had the highest cost of the European Banking Crisis per capita at nearly €9,000.  The next highest was Germany at $491.  The idea that money was lent for any reason that was not self-serving in some way is, as wolfball pointed out, laughable.

You found the figures I was after but couldn't find... But ye know quins is just having a nice wum on this so best not to bother

link please. read it on the internet just isnt going to cut it with this one.

are you seriously suggesting that the financial crisis cost to Greece, with 25% fall in GDP, 25% unemployment, and 175% debt/GDP is less than EUR 491 per capital?

wolfs original suggestion was that uk bailout contribution (along with ECB and IMF rather than indirectly via Lloyds and RBS) was to prevent the UK banks from falling over. that is whats really laughable. theBOE and FCA then (BOE solely now) have responsibility for financial stability. the 9bn bailout amount was a political decision "on which the UK govt fully expected to make a decent return and get their money back".

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/government-finance-statistics/excessive-deficit/supplemtary-tables-financial-crisis

Anyway, my opinion has not changed since the new European competition started, everything promised has not come to fruition, the second tier comp is a farce, and there are too many games involving teams from the same country to make it appeal to me. Not enough variety in this new competition for me.

lorddowlais the second tier is a farce because you treat it with disdain. You see yourself as too good and superior for the competition.

You criticise the top tier for not having more variety yet don't acknowledge that now the 2nd tier has more variety.

The 2nd tier has given sides like Connacht and Edinburgh the confidence and hunger they needed to become better sides. As a result they are performing better. Also with qualification for the ERCC as a reward for winning the Amlin they have an incentive to keep pushing in that competition.

Qualification for the RCC isn't a reward for winning the Amlin for some ridiculous reason

quinsforever wrote:
wolfs original suggestion was that uk bailout contribution (along with ECB and IMF rather than indirectly via Lloyds and RBS) was to prevent the UK banks from falling over. that is whats really laughable. theBOE and FCA then (BOE solely now) have responsibility for financial stability. the 9bn bailout amount was a political decision "on which the UK govt fully expected to make a decent return and get their money back".

I wonder how much toxic debt directly from RBS and it's subsiduries books has been serviced by the Irish tax payer via Nama over the last few of years....

BamBam wrote:Qualification for the RCC isn't a reward for winning the Amlin for some ridiculous reason

The opportunity to qualify is available if you haven't already qualified by league position and win the Challenge Cup.

I prefer the qualification format of the new competition, but alot of the games in the Champions Cup were very one-sided, especially in the last two weeks. Which is funny because it was more competitive in that more teams could qualify for the quarter finals than last year at the same stage.

To me what this new format has really highlighted is the lack of variety available in European rugby. If you compare to football, you have 5 major countries with a top tier of 20 teams, and then another 10 - 15 countries with leagues who can all qualify to play each other in a big European Cup. We don't have that. We have 2 countries with a domestic competition at the required level, and another league which is a mini-European competition. The same teams play each other all the time. Ulster V Leicester. Ospreys V Treviso. If I think of potential matches, only Leinster V Leicester, or Leinster V Saracens seems fresh. Practically every other match up I can think of, I have seen in the last few seasons. At the moment I would much rather watch Connacht V Exeter than Munster V Clermont, mainly because its new.

If you compare to the southern hemisphere, they are far more progressive than us as they create new teams to keep things fresh. Do we need to do that? However I don't know where they could go.

My suggestion is a knock out tournament similar to the FA Cup. All teams involved, random draw, maybe some home and away legs for quarter or semi finals, but ultimately you lose and you're out. You would have potential giant-killings and it could be very exciting and intense for these matches. I do understand teams might not be happy as they would lose gate/ tv money from the guaranteed group games, but player welfare could be better due to lack of matches. The fact that we are going into a Six Nations without Tuilagi, Lawes, Launchbury, Cole for England and O'Brien, Sexton, Healy for Ireland is very frustrating.

quinsforever wrote:
link please. read it on the internet just isnt going to cut it with this one.

beshocked wrote:lorddowlais the second tier is a farce because you treat it with disdain. You see yourself as too good and superior for the competition.

Bollox, Bilsh!t and rubbish, I do not treat it with disdain, it is not me who sees it that we are too superior for the competition.

Why don't you ask the French why they are putting 2nd and 3rd string sides out in it ? Stade Francias bombed out of the competition without so much as a wimper, yet they are riding high in the league, why are we watching teams like Rovigo getting 100+ put on them ? What has happened to this third tier tournament ?, where is all this extra money for the Champions Cup ? Where are the big new sponsors for this new fandangled cup gone ?

It's all a farce, and if I wanted to watch English teams vs English teams I would just watch the English league, the same goes for the French vs French, there has been the odd one off decent game, but as a spectacle, or a package, it is boring. It was all built on false promises which makes it even more hard to stomach.

Indeed my lord!

Billions of extra dosh - not happened
More competative top tier without lopsided pools - not happened
more competitive 2nd tier - not happened
3rd tier - not happened

lorddowlais you're the one writing off the Amlin.

I don't disagree that there are issues that need sorting out - if certain teams are not going to try then they should be punished. A new structure is going to have some issues.

TJ it's not as simple as waving a magic wand and hey presto! It takes work from everyone.

Give it time.

beshocked wrote:TJ it's not as simple as waving a magic wand and hey presto! It takes work from everyone.

Thats not what we were told at the start of the whole damn thing, even though we could already see what was going to pan out, it is all a farce, but I suppose you will defend it to the bitter end, so we both have our opinions and I will respect your views, but I still think it's crap.

Lorddowlais it's not ideal no but I do think it's better than it was.

The BT sport coverage is far superior to that of Sky.

There were enough decent matches for it to be great.

Would the quarter final line up really much different in the old layout?

I do think the new structure is helping the likes of Edinburgh and Connacht.

It's not the competitions' fault that the Welsh clubs have been rubbish this season. Let's be honest, we all want to see our team's and countries do well.

The Welsh are not doing poorly because of the new format - it's the WRU battle with the regions that has hurt Wales more. Instead of working together they seem to be constantly at logger heads.

In contrast the RFU and PRL have an uneasy alliance - both are doing solidly. There is some balance which has led to England being competitive both internationally and on the club scene.

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked wrote:TJ it's not as simple as waving a magic wand and hey presto! It takes work from everyone.

Thats not what we were told at the start of the whole damn thing, even though we could already see what was going to pan out, it is all a farce, but I suppose you will defend it to the bitter end, so we both have our opinions and I will respect your views, but I still think it's crap.

Indeed - we were told all the money was lined up. fortunately the celtic unions were not as gullible as many on here and insisted on a floor for their funding from the comp - which has meant that the PRL teams are getting much less this year. As for all the rest of it - again we were told it would happen this year. Many on here bought the nonsense but many of us knew it was nonsense guess who has been proved right - the sceptics not the gullible.

the most damming part is the unfair qualification now simply meant weak french and English teams in the cup giving easy points and ensuring second place qualifiers came from their groups. Look at the teams with no wins. Sale - no wins and cannon fodder, Castre - no wins and canon fodder. Even the Weak Pro 12 teams managed to win a game. thus nest year can we please go to 5/5/8+2 for qualification - it gets rid of the weak teams and is fairer

Not sure I picked up on a game with Castre so can't really comment but I saw Sale Munster and Sale Saracens and Sale were far from being cannon fodder. We still obviously have Treviso who shouldn't really be there.

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais it's not ideal no but I do think it's better than it was.

The BT sport coverage is far superior to that of Sky.

There were enough decent matches for it to be great.

Would the quarter final line up really much different in the old layout?

I do think the new structure is helping the likes of Edinburgh and Connacht.

It's not the competitions' fault that the Welsh clubs have been rubbish this season. Let's be honest, we all want to see our team's and countries do well.

The Welsh are not doing poorly because of the new format - it's the WRU battle with the regions that has hurt Wales more. Instead of working together they seem to be constantly at logger heads.

In contrast the RFU and PRL have an uneasy alliance - both are doing solidly. There is some balance which has led to England being competitive both internationally and on the club scene.

beshocked, the Welsh teams were never any good in the competition, but that never used to stop me from camping out infront of the tele for a whole weekend of European rugby regardless who was broadcasting it, this time though, when I have seen the fixtures it did not get my attention like the old format did, I do not want to see English V English or French V French in the group stages, I want to see how teams that do not play each other often compare when playing each other in another competition. Just to make things clear, my opinion on this new CC has nothing to do with how the Welsh regions are performing in it.

Are the Pro12 derbies more or less interesting than AP or T14 derbies - same old teams playing the same old teams just in a different competition?

There were 4 inter-pro12 games, 4 inter-AP games and just 2 inter-T14 games this season in the Champions Cup. 10 out of a total of 60 pool games.

Last season's HC provided 12 derby games, all but 2 between Pro12 sides, out of 72 pool games.

Which of these seems more rounded?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure I picked up on a game with Castre so can't really comment but I saw Sale Munster and Sale Saracens and Sale were far from being cannon fodder. We still obviously have Treviso who shouldn't really be there.

Sale didn't win a single game - clearly outclassed and thus buy the PRL logic shouldn't be there. Results are everything. Trevisio won a game. So clearly a better side more desrving to be in the tournament

Obviously I am only on a bit of a wind up but if it had been a fairer spread of teams qualifying on a truely meritocratic basis we could have had Edinburgh and Connacht instead of Sale and Castre - would the two Pro 12 teams have added more to the tournament? certainly would have spread interest wider and shown more variety - and I bet both teams would have won a game ( actually Castre were not the 6th french team so still likely to qualify) Any team who wins no games does not deserve to to be in the tournament. Treviso did better than Sale and Castre

Beshocked - Edinburgh are badly damaged by this new format.

Last season there were just two fixtures in the pool stages out of 72 involving teams from the same country, compared to 6 this year from a total of 60. A European competition involves different European teams playing against each other so I'd say the previous version was far more rounded.

The Great Aukster wrote:Last season there were just two fixtures in the pool stages out of 72 involving teams from the same country, compared to 6 this year from a total of 60. A European competition involves different European teams playing against each other so I'd say the previous version was far more rounded.

Totally agree. Lets face it no one wants to be watching the likes of Wasps v Quins or Sale v Sarries. What a crock.

If we want a pan europe comp lets go for 4 english, 4 french, 4 Irish, 4 welsh, 2, scots, 2 italians.

..

TJ wrote:Beshocked - Edinburgh are badly damaged by this new format.

As several people have lumped in Edinburgh and Connacht together, while my team (Connacht) are not badly damaged, i want to clarify that Connacht's improvement this year has, in my view, 0 to do with the new european format. Our improvement is due to Lam's policy of picking Irish youth + non-Irish players better then the typical journeymen we get, finally coming to fruition after a couple of seasons of near misses. Connacht has improved because we have the best players we have ever had, with argueably our best ever coach.

The Great Aukster wrote:Last season there were just two fixtures in the pool stages out of 72 involving teams from the same country, compared to 6 this year from a total of 60. A European competition involves different European teams playing against each other so I'd say the previous version was far more rounded.

So, last season there were 10 Pro12 teams that had 4 fixtures against another Pro12 team, a team that they've played regularly over the years and know inside out. This season only 4, and apparently it's far less rounded, despite more variety?