The English salary cap - Premiership report due on Wednesday, 4 February

First topic message reminder :

Simmering silently on the back burner have been reports from 20 December last year ( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/11305609/Saracens-and-Bath-under-investigation-for-alleged-salary-cap-breach.html , http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-2881625/Clubs-face-salary-cap-probe-Report.html).

Saracens and Bath each face fines of up to £10/£1* cap overspend plus (I believe) a points deduction.
*£4/£1 if only for one season.

A useful primer on sports caps in general and an overview of the English Premiership cap is at http://www.lawinsport.com/features/item/the-salary-cap-in-rugby-union

Personally, I hope that the book, the shelves then followed brick by brick, the whole effin' library is thrown at Wray and Craig should they have be caught fiddling the rules.

Not that the rules are in themselves necessarily legal...

Bathite, regarding redeveloping the Rec or moving, I can understand why there's an issue enlarging the stands that are by the riverside as it would spoil the view for the tourists, but why can't they build/develop on the side of the ground adjacent to the sports hall which is just a big concrete block ?

Hammerofthunor I didn't say Saracens are well run. I said if club X is poorly run they should do something about it. That includes Saracens. Saracens can be run better I am sure of that.

As for Bath I don't know whether they are.

In Saracens and Bath's cases they need to look to increase revenue and crowds to become less reliant on money from generous benefactors.

Though whatever you say about Wray and co, they have acquired a stadium in London for Saracens - that is notoriously difficult.

I seriously think there is a lack of understanding of how tough it is for London clubs to get that first step towards sustainability which of course is your own home big enough to sustain your growth. Only need to see the plight of the likes of Wasps and London Welsh who had to relocate - as well as talking about the clubs mentioned by Irish londoner like Richmond and Blackheath.

Beschocked, I don't think anyone is (or should be) questioning the investment Wray and chums have made into the infrastructure of Saracens, be that through the stadium, EQ player development, the training setup at Old A's, their community work, the Wembley days out, etc. Indeed IMHO many clubs should be copying that side of things, which is an area that by and large Saracens are the Premiership leaders in.
However if they have breached the salary cap by the sort of margins that have been talked about, then that is a serious breach of the rules and should be dealt with accordingly.
There may be a case made that previously some clubs have got off lightly for the same offence, but I don't think that will be taken into account, and given the penalty imposed on London Welsh for fielding an unregistered player if they (or any other club) have done this then a similar punishment should be enforced.
In a way PRL/RFU have made their bed in this area by their treatment of LW and it's now likely to come home to roost on the big boys.

beshocked wrote:
To be honest I think the cap is focussed on too much by fans - instead of looking at their own faults and flaws they blame the supposed advantage certain clubs have for their own failings.

So you saying a race to spend the most isn't a fault or flaw?

I know you are sticking up for your club, but at least try and make sense. No way in the world is a club spending big amounts whilst being paid for by a single benefactor a good thing. What if that benefactor up sticks and leaves. The club is left with a bunch of expensive contracts that they cannot afford and so will likely go bust.

Irish Londoner wrote:Bathite, regarding redeveloping the Rec or moving, I can understand why there's an issue enlarging the stands that are by the riverside as it would spoil the view for the tourists, but why can't they build/develop on the side of the ground adjacent to the sports hall which is just a big concrete block ?

There are a multitude of problems, but that plan is halted by the fact that the council own that block of concrete - actually the only public leisure centre in bath and the car park that surrounds it. The plan for the full stadium redevelopment included revamping that whole area to include a hotel as well, but that plan is held up by the extension on the side opposite the river.

Bathite, thanks for the info - let me guess - for every solution the council have a problem ?

Pretty much mate. In fact it is even more complicated than that, as there is a charity commission involved, that own the Rec and a group of people argue it should be for public use, not profit making sport. However, that argument is a little floored considering the uplift in business in restaurants, pubs and alike during a game day

Time to move out of town, shame but its beyond a joke now.

Irish Londoner don't disagree with that - I just think certain clubs shouldn't be pointing the finger.

Nathan sure you could argue it's a flaw but then you're just deflecting away from other problems.

Some clubs need benefactors, not every club has their own stadium they can call their own.

Of course it's ideal for clubs to be sustainable but that's Saracens and Bath's problem.

You do understand that if you fine the clubs like as much as some posters want - you'll probably wipe them out anyway?

Is a destruction of Saracens or Bath what you want?

I know Portnoy's Complaint definitely wants to see it.... he's jumped the gun so far but perhaps he'll get his way in the end.

What I want to see Mr Shocked, is a game that is recognisable as the one which bears more of a semblance to amateurism than the obscene depths that football has sunk.

I don't think that many supporters of the game do either.

I bet you wouldn't want to support a hybrid cap based on [ed: consumer] turnover subject to a strict maximum. That would be more likely to ensure financial stability of all participants both financially and competitively.

Heavens; even if the best-supported clubs in the land's pips are squeaking as it is, logic tells me that even the current cap is unsustainable.

God, I've been Dumb!   Really dumb.  It's amazing how dumb you can be without fully knowing it until a wiser man pops up and doesn't even have to sweat to solve a puzzle.

For months I've been confabing with beshocked - and after so many months you try to steer away from the dreaded formalities that can often keep a stiffness going that should never be there with fwiends or indeed familiar enemies.

So I was wondering for months how to simply shorten his title.  I mean I find it easy most times.  Portnoy is Portnoy, majestic is majestic, Tiger is tiger... rodders helped us all out by shortening his own name anyway from rodderism........ but for some reason I couldn't think how to shorten beshocked's!  Bizarre.

Anyway, Shock it is from here on in

Beshocked, I'm not deflectibg anything. It's well documented about our poor form this year. You however, are telling us to all look at our own problems instead of yours. Isn't that a classic case of deflection, the very thing you excuse everyone else of?

Bathite wrote:Pretty much mate. In fact it is even more complicated than that, as there is a charity commission involved, that own the Rec and a group of people argue it should be for public use, not profit making sport.

Well in that case Bath can stay at the Rec in perpetuity

On the more serious note of the cap, it's rock and a hard place time, if you link the cap to the club income effectively you are going to make it impossible for a club like Falcons, Irish or any promoted Championship club to advance and ensure that a cycle of the top four stays as the top four as the established clubs with their own big stadiums will always have most money - effectively it's pulling up the drawbridge to stop anyone threatening the big clubs - rather like Financial Fair Play as done in football.

On the other hand, I think a lot of fans are not happy that clubs can run at an ongoing loss for years and surviving only on the financial support of benefactors, some of whom have apparently unlimited funding and are prepared to use it to gain advantage to get the best players and pay the top wages, to the extent that the business model of other clubs means that they are unable to compete at least not without taking huge financial risk.

Portnoy's Complaint Not everything about amateur rugby is rosy.

Concussions are great aren't they? Everyone are being softies for thinking of the safety of players like North.....

I don't like everything in the professional game either but it's better than the old days IMO.

The greed of the RFU is something I dislike for example.

You only want to see hybrid cap because you want to continue to see the dominance of Leicester....

Nathan I know what Saracens problems are. No deflection needed. As for the so called breaking of the salary cap - no one knows the real story till it's revealed (if it's ever revealed).


My relationship with Saracens is complicated - I staunchly defend them yet I know their weaknesses and flaws. Though saying that not everything is bad about the club. Needs balance.

There is an always a stick for you to beat another team with if you choose to use it.....

E.g. If it's not accusations of breaking the salary cap, it's the amount of foreigners or you're only there because of the money etc.



secretfly I don't see you as an enemy - just someone who has a different view point to me.


Should I shorten your name to Fly?

Entertainment 'enemy' in discussionary terms I was meaning, shock You're no ways an enemy of mine....

Fly suits me fine

Two sides to every argument - you could say that Wray and Craig are egotistical A holes who want to destroy the integrity of English club rugby with their excess spending and are pushing their own agendas.

Equally you could say Wray and Craig are two passionate rugby fans who want to help their local areas by supporting a local club, helping local communities and improving the profile of rugby in London and Bath respectively. Also they are helping the English national side with their players. Doing their bit to the development of young Englishmen.

Also you could say that Wray is an A hole for speaking his mind about the cap or equally you could admire his openness and honesty. He's not hiding his opinions.

It's not as simple as Wray and Craig are demonic beings sent to destroy rugby.

I agree that it is not simple beshocked, there are always two sides to the coin.

However, I cannot agree with your earlier assertions that for the good of rugby any punishment for breaking the cap by Saracens or Bath should be minor or swept under the carpet entirely. If they've broken the rules they should be punished as per the guidelines, irrespective of the fact that they are top clubs.

I have no axe to grind with Saracens. I know they do a lot of good community work, but I do dislike the way that certain individuals within the organisation seem to want to push the boundaries that have been agreed by all clubs, whether those clubs like it or not. This is about rugby as a whole and not about Saracens and Bath.

Bath I dislike intensely. Yes, that it partly due to them having nabbed a lot of our best players, but also they are the only side I've been to a match against where their fans behaved appallingly, and I am aware anecdotaly of similar behaviour from club officials.

Ozzy3213

It's RWC year, England are the hosts. Whether you agree or not, it would be bad for England if two of their AP clubs got given a good ol' kicking in the punishment stakes in the build up.

Plus both teams are supplying a sizeable enough contribution to the England squads.

Plus it's hugely embarrassing - instead the appropriate authorities could get the clubs to tighten their belts behind the scenes or even deal with it after the RWC.

Why do you think some bans conveniently run out before a big game? Oh look Kruis is back just in time for the Wales game - that's lucky......

Oh and for all we know so far - salary breaches in general have been mostly kept hush. We know there is no transparency.

It's not nice to lose players I respect that - every team has lost players to other clubs.

Wasps must be still annoyed at losing Billy for example though him playing with his brother was obviously part of that - his family wanted them in the same team.

Wasps have formed a very competitive backrow though with Johnson,Haskell and Hughes.


Bath have another LI player.... Homer... wow...

The game of rugby is in general more important than the RWC. So that's an entirely inappropriate argument to hold back on any punishment on cheats of the cap.

In any case, the levels of punishments appear to be set in stone and are administered by the PRL and not the RFU.

And I only raised this topic because because the dates were reported in the media.

Maybe it's been settled out of court, somehow?

Portnoy's Complaint I guess it's just funny coming from a Tigers fan..... I personally don't think Tigers as historically a squeaky clean team either.

I doubt you were thinking of the greater good of the game when Neil Back cheated to help you beat Munster in that notorious HC final. Plus of course having the notorious Dean Richards in charge.....

Ignore the potential consequences at your peril.

I know all about that. Neil I still have bad thoughts about.

And Deano did his bad bit for Quins.

And Tigers I have said on here many times, I suspect of historically cheating the cap even without any evidence to prove it.

However , now there there are the tools in the bag to prevent major violations and I wholly approve of them.

You however seem to want to sidestep the issue or have a 'tap on the wrist' meted out. I cannot agree with you. I'd like to see Wray and Craig both hammered for the good of the game in England.