Any stories behind the great fights ??

While Jim Jeffries was Champion Jack Johnson was hustling for a title shot but getting nowhere..Jeffries himself said he wasn't going to fight a black man for the title....Anyway Johnson goes into this bar to look for Jeffries and finds him drinking with his mates....

He goes up to his table and say's "Stop avoiding me and give me my rightful shot "

Jeffries gets up and say's "I'm not fighting a black guy for the Heavy title but what I will do is put $2600 on the bar and we can go into the cellar over there right now and If you come up the steps before me you can keep it...."

Johnson say's "I'm not some common cellar fighter and walks out"...........

There is another Johnson Jeffries story. Apparently Stanley Ketchel went to visit Jeffries in his training camp for the Johnson fight a few days before the fight was due to take place. He was apparently so concerned by how poor Jeffries looked he concocted a plan that when he was called into the ring to take a bow and greet the fighters, as was the tradition for the times, he was going to take a swing at Jeffries, hoping that knocking him out or breaking his jaw would cause the fight to be abandoned, thus saving his friend and white folk in general the shame of being humiliated and beaten by a black man.

News of this got back to promoter Rickard and was so spooked by the possibility of this happening that he ensured Ketchel was not called to enter the ring and take a bow before the fight and gave specific instructions to folk at ringside that Ketchel should be prevented from entering the ring. Obviously you never know how true these things are but Stanley was certainly enough of a loose cannon to come up with such an idea.

Couple of stories about one of the nicest guys in Boxing Tommy Hearns......

First one was after the Hagler fight....Hearns broke his right hand in the first round....In the dressing room after he said to Manny Steward "Don't mention the hand at the post fight conference ...It's Marvin's night and I don't want to take anything away from his victory"..

David Haye take note..

Next up was after he beat number 1 middle contender "Black Gold" Shuler on the Hagler-Mugabi card..........Shuler died in a motorcycle accident a couple of days later.....Hit a truck If memory serves correctly..........Anyway Hearns sent the family the NABF belt he'd just taken from him and wrote "It looked a lot better on him than it does on me".........

Rowley wrote:There is another Johnson Jeffries story. Apparently Stanley Ketchel went to visit Jeffries in his training camp for the Johnson fight a few days before the fight was due to take place. He was apparently so concerned by how poor Jeffries looked he concocted a plan that when he was called into the ring to take a bow and greet the fighters, as was the tradition for the times, he was going to take a swing at Jeffries, hoping that knocking him out or breaking his jaw would cause the fight to be abandoned, thus saving his friend and white folk in general the shame of being humiliated and beaten by a black man.

News of this got back to promoter Rickard and was so spooked by the possibility of this happening that he ensured Ketchel was not called to enter the ring and take a bow before the fight and gave specific instructions to folk at ringside that Ketchel should be prevented from entering the ring. Obviously you never know how true these things are but Stanley was certainly enough of a loose cannon to come up with such an idea.

First time I'd heard that.............Excellent stuff !!

Mike Tyson:
Involved in a boy boy girl girl tryst with a couple of Tokyo's HOE-spitality in Tokyo before he was ROBBED against Douglas

The excuses just keep coming...

One story I heard about Douglas Tyson is it was not even Tyson in the ring. Mike could not be bothered to take the fight so he sent a look a like, just like Return of the Mack singer Mark Morrison did for his community service. So Douglas did not even beat Mike Tyson.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:Mike Tyson:
Involved in a boy boy girl girl tryst with a couple of Tokyo's HOE-spitality in Tokyo before he was ROBBED against Douglas

You just trumped their aces with that one onethree.

Rowley wrote:One story I heard about Douglas Tyson is it was not even Tyson in the ring. Mike could not be bothered to take the fight so he sent a look a like, just like Return of the Mack singer Mark Morrison did for his community service. So Douglas did not even beat Mike Tyson.

Is this true?

If so it explains quite a lot. Tyson was just not himself that night and the fight came shortly after the death of long time mentor and inspiration Cus D'mato. Tyson was not mentally in the right place at the time so it seems very plausible that a lookalike could have been used.

cheers for thai Rowley I will no doubt investigate some more and get back to you.

Rowley wrote:One story I heard about Douglas Tyson is it was not even Tyson in the ring. Mike could not be bothered to take the fight so he sent a look a like, just like Return of the Mack singer Mark Morrison did for his community service. So Douglas did not even beat Mike Tyson.

Funnily enough I would have picked a 228 pound in shape Douglas to beat Evander...........People forget Holy was only a slight 11/8 favorite for that fight...........Went out to 4/1 when Buster weighed 245.........

Really looking forward to that fight...

Could have been a great Heavy fight that one.............Unfortunately Buster reverted to type..

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

Rowley wrote:One story I heard about Douglas Tyson is it was not even Tyson in the ring. Mike could not be bothered to take the fight so he sent a look a like, just like Return of the Mack singer Mark Morrison did for his community service. So Douglas did not even beat Mike Tyson.

Is this true?

If so it explains quite a lot. Tyson was just not himself that night and the fight came shortly after the death of long time mentor and inspiration Cus D'mato. Tyson was not mentally in the right place at the time so it seems very plausible that a lookalike could have been used.

cheers for thai Rowley I will no doubt investigate some more and get back to you.

Bert Cooper ??

TopHat24/7 wrote:The excuses just keep coming...

Not only do I think Provo is a great win for Bradley.............I'm apparently a Tyson fan now.....

Always learning new stuff every day on 606..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:The excuses just keep coming...

Not only do I think Provo is a great win for Bradley.............I'm apparently a Tyson fan now.....

Always learning new stuff every day on 606..

Did I say I was talking to you, you dim-witted oaf.

Get over yourself.

HINT: My comment immediately followed the comment of the person to whom I was replying. You know, like a normal conversation....

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:The excuses just keep coming...

Not only do I think Provo is a great win for Bradley.............I'm apparently a Tyson fan now.....

Always learning new stuff every day on 606..

Did I say I was talking to you, you dim-witted oaf.

Get over yourself.

HINT: My comment immediately followed the comment of the person to whom I was replying.  You know, like a normal conversation....

This is the only way you can contribute on threads like this isn't it ????

That the best response you can come up with? Not nice getting so regularly shown up by someone you conside 'beneath you', is it??

Ferdie Pacheco wrote in his book that he actually saw film that has not been shown of Dempsey - Willard.  Apparently it was kearns (Dempsey's manager) that showed it to him with a twinkle in his eye !! It showed him removing a metal pike from Dempsey's glove after the first round of the fight.....Considering he bet a third of his purse on a one round KO....I tend to believe the fight Doctor..

Pacheco couldn't believe the damage Willard sustained in one round of Boxing...Considering the weight gap neither can I..

Source.............."Ferdie Pacheco's twelve greatest rounds of alltime"... Quality read by the way !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Ferdie Pacheco wrote in his book that he actually saw film that has not been shown of Dempsey - Willard.  Apparently it was kearns (Dempsey's manager) that showed it to him with a twinkle in his eye !! It showed him removing a metal pike from Dempsey's glove after the first round of the fight.....Considering he bet a third of his purse on a one round KO....I tend to believe the fight Doctor..

Pacheco couldn't believe the damage Willard sustained in one round of Boxing...Considering the weight gap neither can I..

Source.............."Ferdie Pacheco's twelve greatest rounds of alltime"... Quality read by the way !!

http://thecruelestsport.com/2014/07/04/hard-times-the-mystery-of-the-jack-dempsey-jess-willard-fight/

"With the plaster of Paris angle debunked, conspiracy buffs in the 1970s focused on the “Railroad Spike Theory,” based on photos of an unidentified object seen in the ring at the end of the chaotic first round. A large cigar-shaped object–the magic bullet of the Dempsey-Willard mystery–can clearly be seen on the canvas, where Willard sits in a gruesome heap. Unfortunately for iron spike enthusiasts, video footage of the fight shows that Dempsey is nowhere near Willard when the object is first seen. Dempsey floored Willard for the umpteenth time late in the first and when the bell rang, he retreated across the ring. At this point, no object is visible, but the next shot reveals it clearly. Unlike something out of Sigmund Freud, however, here the cigar seems merely to be a cigar. As Monte Cox pointed out in his exhaustive treatment on the loaded gloves controversy, Dempsey would not have been able to grip an iron spike since he can be seen with open gloves throughout the first round, holding the ropes, for example. “How could Dempsey be holding an iron spike in his left hand when his hand is grabbing the ring ropes after the first knockdown?” asks Cox. “How could he push Willard in the clinches with open gloves if he had something in his hands?” In the end, the iron spike seems to be as implausible as the Plaster of Paris scheme."

Did Cox ever see this video that Pacheco saw?


And where is the video now? And is there any chance it could ever come into the public domain?

Apparently Jersy Joe Walcott was hired as a sparring partner for Joe Louis befoe Louis fought Max Shmeling. Walcott however was fired after 2 days becasue he floored Louis 3 times.

Don't know if this is true but Walcott was a crafty so and so.

kearns fell out with dempsey. Came up with the plaster theory. When that got debunked he came up with the spike theory. Not much of a credible witness really.

I don't get the spike/nail theory. How (in theory) was it used to advantage? Was he supposedly slashing him with punches? Was it meant to be in his glove in front of his knuckles? That would break your hands.

I'm pretty sure the original boxing gloves had a metal bar in them, those, that you grabbed a hold of, giving the glove form. I thought they were in use up to johnson, not sure when they were decommissioned from use though.

Herman Jaggery wrote:Did Cox ever see this video that Pacheco saw?

Did Pacheco?

Jack Dempsey vs Jack Johnson, Did it happen?
http://sportsjournalists.com/forum/threads/jack-dempsey-vs-jack-johnson-did-it-happen.42735/

Boxing, moreso than any other sport I can think of, loves to wallow in mystery and conspiracy. It's not surprising given its illegal nature in most of the country up until the early 20th century, but it does leave us with many seemingly contradictory and nebulous factoids to sort through.

One whispered rumor that stretches back to the 1920s is this:

In 1921, immediately following his record-breaking million-dollar gate fight against Georges Carpentier, heavyweight champion of the world Jack Dempsey quietly drove up to Saskatoon, Canada and, in an illegal prizefight staged by high-roller gamblers, met and knocked out Jack Johnson, the former heavyweight champion who had been released from prison in July of that year.

A tall tale perhaps, and one that begs many questions - Dempsey made $300,000 to fight Carpentier, how much could a hundred-or-so high rollers offer the champ for a private bout? The biggest elephant in the ring, of course, is the lack of confirmatory evidence in the papers of the day. Or so I thought.

A seller on eBay claims to have an original copy of a 1921 newspaper, "The Brooklyn Eagle", which purportedly has a round-by-round description of the bout as relayed to them from a firsthand source in attendance.

Now this rumor of a Dempsey vs Johnson fight stretches all the way back to this period, but neither Dempsey nor Johnson ever confirmed it, or even debunked it to my knowledge. Boxing historian Monte Cox gives the following account of Dempsey's reaction to the rumor:

Lew Eskin, former Boxing Illustrated Editor, wrote an article about it in Dec 1985 Fightbeat magazine. He asked Dempsey about it who was evasive. The only thing Jack would say is he boxed a series of exhibitions during that time. He asked Dempsey if he could publish the story in B.Ill. but Dempsey said, "Not Now" which Eskin took to mean not in his lifetime. The bout with Jack Johnson was allegedly an under the table affair for rich gamblers.

One of the truly intriguing aspects of Jack Dempsey was that as a mature adult world champion, he worked tirelessly to recreate his image as that of a gentleman, and did a good job of it too. He took diction lessons, read a newspaper from front to back every single day, and made every effort to distance himself from gamblers and other shady types (Al Capone was a big Dempsey fan and actually offered to promote Dempsey after Jack split from Doc Kearns - Dempsey quickly and quietly declined). But there is no doubt that during his hardscrabble years as a young hobo and itinerant worker, Dempsey couldn't help but associate with such men - heck, he worked in brothels and speakeasies all over Colorado and Utah! Dempsey was so ashamed of this aspect of his life that he outright denied all of it after his career was over; even the 1917 Fireman Jim Flynn fight in Utah, a dive so blatant that both fighters were chased out of town and boxing banned, is stated by Dempsey himself as being completely on the level - the journeyman Flynn KO'd Dempsey with one punch within 10 seconds (for his part Dempsey took his money, rumored to be $500, and was fighting in California 3 weeks later).

So Dempsey was not above doing the bidding of gamblers during his young and hungry years out west. Could he have repaid a favor to some by fighting Jack Johnson in some remote Canadian basement only 4 years after the Flynn debacle? I don't know, but I'd sure be curious to read that article!

Wow, Atila have never seen that before. I am going to do more digging on this and see what I can find out. Interesting stuff.

Rowley wrote:

Herman Jaggery wrote:Did Cox ever see this video that Pacheco saw?

Did Pacheco?

Good question............Might be bollox............Certainly in his book which is worth a dig !!

Personally whether he is full of crap or not..........Dempsey did a lot of damage to a guy 50 pounds heavier...

Still Top 10 for me though...........

As with Manny/May and juice...........If you can't prove it...You take them on face value..

Excellent stuff Atila....

Rowley wrote:Wow, Atila have never seen that before. I am going to do more digging on this and see what I can find out. Interesting stuff.

I read about this rumour on another forum years ago, but then, the reason given for this supposed fight being kept quiet was because Johnson made Dempsey look bad.

Jim Corbett declared in the Los Angeles Herald newspaper....

That he had changed his mind on retirement "Because Fitzsimmons keeps abusing me and keeps stating that he is afraid to meet me again !!".....The former champion states that although he has many theatre engagements lined up he is willing to cancel them all If a decent purse is offered!!.....

Shame what a mouth watering rematch that would have been...........Probably pickem....

If I could pick ten imaginary fights... which could have been made............This would be one of them..

Rowley wrote:Wow, Atila have never seen that before. I am going to do more digging on this and see what I can find out. Interesting stuff.

... the bottom comment on the article atila posted sadly might answer the question

Just checked with Adam Pollack, who has written two volumes about Johnson. His exact answer was no, it never happened. I'm happy to take his word for it.

Rowley wrote:Just checked with Adam Pollack, who has written two volumes about Johnson. His exact answer was no, it never happened. I'm happy to take his word for it.

Friends in high places......

Rowley wrote:Just checked with Adam Pollack, who has written two volumes about Johnson. His exact answer was no, it never happened. I'm happy to take his word for it.

I see how you are Rowley. I put up an article in good faith, and then you discredit the article and me.

Read somewhere that Greb begged Carpentier for a shot at his 175 pound title only for the Frenchman to say his schedule was full for the immediate future.....and to p**s off.....

Apparently this was after Tunney had got a good hiding.......

Can't say I blame him !!

Atila wrote:

Rowley wrote:Just checked with Adam Pollack, who has written two volumes about Johnson. His exact answer was no, it never happened. I'm happy to take his word for it.

I see how you are Rowley. I put up an article in good faith, and then you discredit the article and me.  

Feel bad now for letting facts get in the way of a good story. Would it help if I say I thought Hagler beat Leonard?

The source of the rumour:

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1921/12/04/page/20/article/dempsey-vs-johnson

barely legible but this is the mythical fight it refers to... a series of 'current champs' v greats of the past from 1921. They were into comparing eras even then. It was reprinted as an actual fight in another paper a week later.


Interesting news week in chicago... the trial of fatty arbuckle.

milkyboy wrote:The source of the rumour:

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1921/12/04/page/20/article/dempsey-vs-johnson

barely legible but this is the mythical fight it refers to... a series of 'current champs' v greats of the past from 1921. They were into comparing eras even then. It was reprinted as an actual fight in another paper a week later.


Interesting news week in chicago... the trial of fatty arbuckle.

Toppy was around in 1921 ??

so of our stories so far, any of them have any truth?

I'm liking the tyson 'double' fighting douglas one the best.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

milkyboy wrote:The source of the rumour:

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1921/12/04/page/20/article/dempsey-vs-johnson

barely legible but this is the mythical fight it refers to... a series of 'current champs' v greats of the past from 1921. They were into comparing eras even then. It was reprinted as an actual fight in another paper a week later.


Interesting news week in chicago... the trial of fatty arbuckle.

Toppy was around in 1921 ??

no but he's a round now. boom boom.

It's ok toppy, we know you've slimmed down.

Rowley wrote:

Atila wrote:

Rowley wrote:Just checked with Adam Pollack, who has written two volumes about Johnson. His exact answer was no, it never happened. I'm happy to take his word for it.

I see how you are Rowley. I put up an article in good faith, and then you discredit the article and me.  

Feel bad now for letting facts get in the way of a good story. Would it help if I say I thought Hagler beat Leonard?

Let's not ruin this thread.

Max Baer on before and after his Heavyweight encounter with Braddock ......

"I left a packed dressing room of well wishers to go and fight Braddock.......When I returned after the fight I nearly caught a cold it was that empty"...

Apparently while he was dying on the floor of his hotel room with a heart attack the bell boy came in and found him.........

Bell boy : I'll get the "House" Doctor..

Baer : No get me a "People" one.....

I've heard a story a few times about Ray Robinson drinking a pint of blood in front of Jake La Motta. The reason for this was because he wanted to I guess, intimidate La Motta?

If it's true, I don't know what's worse, drinking a pint of blood, or drinking your own urine like Marquez supposedly does.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Jim Corbett declared in the Los Angeles Herald newspaper....

That he had changed his mind on retirement "Because Fitzsimmons keeps abusing me and keeps stating that he is afraid to meet me again !!".....The former champion states that although he has many theatre engagements lined up he is willing to cancel them all If a decent purse is offered!!.....

Shame what a mouth watering rematch that would have been...........Probably pickem....

If I could pick ten imaginary fights... which could have been made............This would be one of them..

Shame the cowardly f*ck never gave Peter Jackson the rematch/title shot he said he would...c*nt!!!!!!!!!

Corbett was an extremely odd guy. He frequently put up any number of obstacles in the way of fighting people and was dismissive of a number of opponents, such as Jackson, Fitzsimmons and Choynski at various points of his career. The odd thing is, once he finally could be persuaded to fight Corbett was brave as lion. Fought Jackson to an absolute standstill, and was happy to continue and his fight with Choynski on the barge was as brutal as probably any that has ever been fought. Very odd paradox.

Still doesn't excuse him reneging on his promise to give Jackson the rematch he deserved

As Sato said in Karate Kid II "Your cowardice make air STINK!"

There endeth the lesson

Didn't Ken Norton get to the arena late for the Foreman fight? Apparently he'd gotten himself into a frenzy and was dazed and confused or something when. he entered the ring. Hard to confirm, as Foreman had him dazed thirty seconds into the fight.

Some time before his fight against Gerrie Coetzee in Pretoria, big John Tate apparently had a love tryst with Austrian-South African supermodel Mercedes Kornfeld. Apparently their sexual energies were quite compatible. Was obviously a death blow to the Apartheid regime to find out that not only was there a black person who was a better athlete than their best, who won the world title in the heart of Apartheidness, Loftus Versveld, Pretoria... but he had the gall to then shag the hottest lady in the land, and give her the time of her life. For her part, Kornfeld got arrested under the "Immorality Act".

Boxing "nice guy" big George Foreman actually tore a midget IN HALF with his bare hands after one of his 90's wins, supposedly Alex Stewart. Certainly gives credence to Holmes' claims that it was all an act.

Roberto Duran's lightweight nemesis, Esteban De Jesus was sentenced to life after killing a 17-year-old over a traffic dispute. Years later he discovered he'd contracted HIV prior to his imprisonment from sharing needles and drug paraphernalia with his older brother.

De Jesus was later pardoned so that he could spend his final days with his family. A month before he passed, old foe Duran paid him a visited.

Duran embraced and kissed De Jesus and instructed his daughter to do the same. HIV/AIDS was a relatively mysterious disease at the time at the time (back when mass hysteria led to people fearing it could be caught from human contact - even toilet seats).

An extraordinary display of compassion and respect from Duran that belied his public image - that of the snarling, pitiless wild man.

As all hell broke loose at ringside after Marvin Hagler stopped Alan Minter in London, debris rained down from the cheap seats. After being hit on the back with a bottle, Vito Antuofermo wheeled around to find a thug with his fist cocked facing him. Wrong move. Vito levelled him before fleeing with George Kimball.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:Boxing "nice guy" big George Foreman actually tore a midget IN HALF with his bare hands after one of his 90's wins, supposedly Alex Stewart. Certainly gives credence to Holmes' claims that it was all an act.

Years ago, there was a story that George killed a donkey with a sledge hammer by hitting it on the head until it died.

I have met a lady who claims to have met Foreman a few times and she showed me a photo of her meeting him. She claims that he is indeed a class act. I guess it all depends on which side of the bed he got out of that day.

I heard the donkey deserved it. He was a bad ass.

milkyboy wrote:I heard the donkey deserved it. He was a bad ass.