Opinions on Gatland and his ideas?

First topic message reminder :

Let's try to keep this civil and leave out the ref blaming, we all know who that is aimed at... This thread is set up to question ideas and their implications. It is not intended to criticise anyone but if doing so, please do so constructively and give good evidence.
Gats is a great coach with a great CV, I've always backed him to lead us and I still do. I feel he's got a lot of things right in his coaching career with Wales and the Lions, but also feel he's got a fair few things wrong (only with Wales, not the Lions). I find his post-match comments a bit distasteful;

Sir Warren wrote:Rhys Webb, he's done a box-kick that's gone straight up in the air, that's put us under a huge amount of pressure

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the team playing under his orders to kick? There was too much kicking last night, I'm not sure whether that was the game plan (probably) or the players playing what was in front of them. England just ran it back it us like they did last year. How can professionals be so stupid in not to expect this? Before the tournament kicked off Gatland also gave the impression that we'd be reverting back to old ways for this tournament and then try something new at the RWC, perhaps akin to the variation seen from Wales in the autumn series. I don't see the point of not taking this tournament seriously, especially so close to the world cup where winning it would have been a good platform for greater things.

Going back to the point about Webb, I thought he was alright, one of our better performers (even though not many really performed). I believe the culprits were the out of sorts players that he selected, the ones that many fans agreed should not have been selected in the first place. Saying that, nobody really performed to expectations or executed well. I'm not even sure what we were trying to do at the time if I'm honest. We didn't even grow into the game unlike the opposition, we seemed to drift away from it.

Sir Warren wrote:Even if we'd won today, I don't think you can read too much into it ahead of the World Cup in seven months

Sir Clive said something like this before the game last night. It's totally wrong IMO and a loser statement to make. As I said, winning all your games is the ideal build-up for the world cup. That and these teams are group opponents. If that doesn't make the result greatly important for both teams then I don't know what will. Also, surely a wooden spoon would not be ideal going into a tournament containing better teams than in the 6 Nations?

I expect our coach to now come out and say these players underperformed but will be afforded another chance to impress, as this is what usually happens. If we do beat Scotland then everything will be assumed normal, until the same group executing the same style of play get another absolute thumping from a team playing smart rugby (Ireland). The coach isn't the only one at fault. Our players didn't want to be there it seemed from the body language. Our set-up hinders us, as 4 clubs doesn't produce enough players nor can they keep hold of their best ones, hence a very weak bench and some rusty players being played into key positions. Not selecting Adam Jones was a big call, I believe him and Lee should both be in our 23.

So what do we think about his ideas?

B91212 wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:

B91212 wrote:I think the balance is not correct in the forwards. You have a good workmanlike pack but I feel you are maybe missing a carrier or two in the pack. We all know that your big carriers are in the backs but last night thought you needed to keep the England forwards more honest in defending the ruck area so Roberts etc were always running at opposition backs and not backs with one of England`s back 5 forwards able to double up. Brian Moore this week in his torygrapgh column said ideally you`d like a carrier in each row of the forwards and I kind of agree with that. Faletau carriers well but he`s more of a break into space carrier and not a tie defenders up carrier if that make`s sense. Maybe Lydiate has the physical attributes to do it but it doesn`t seem part of his game at the moment. I don`t see much of the Pro12 but is there maybe an ball carrying 8 worth trying with Faletau moving to 6? Or maybe a carrying second row alongside Wyn-Jones (who I thought was one of the better Welsh players last night).

Also agree with the sentiment of picking in form players like Liam Williams but Gatland has set his stall out with 4 big players in the back line and maybe he feels that having more of a flyer type back will disrupt the tactics too much.

It's okay having a predicable gameplan as long as the opposition can`t stop it but it means your in trouble if the opposition can nullify it and you don't have an alternative.

There is a ball carrying 8 that could have been helpful, Dan Baker but he is currently injured. At blindside there is James Thomas who look like the real deal, he has been a handfull for the Dragons. At Hooker there is Kristian Dacey who is a great ball carrier and of course Ken Owens but only just came back last week. Gatland will never drop his pals though.
Navidi is also a much better ball carrier than Warburton.

So there are options but all untried other than Owens. Like you say though it may take injuries before Gatland is prepared to change his favoured (and in my opinion slightly unbalanced) pack.

On a different note I felt last night that Jenkins was off the pace. Been a great servant but if he's not offering much in the loose then they may as well start James and have a stronger front row at the set piece.

I think both are off the pace. We need Lee to up his game next time out. I'd have both Gethin and James on the bench covering LH and TH; as in the current squad I believe that is our best option. Andrews and Jarvis is a no go area. I also don't think players like Baldwin are capable of impact, though he is quite a reliable player.

As you said, James Thomas has been very good. If he wore another colour jersey you can guarantee he would be in that Wales squad. I've also talked about Baker at 8 and Faletau at 6, it didn't go down too well with my fellow Dragons supporters...but still it is something I would at least like to see.

I've not seem much of Lee other than the summer tests but after all the talk before the game being about Cole maybe not being ready it was Lee who looked less match fit to me, he seemed to be blowing pretty hard early on. Last night will have helped for next week though, as long as he can train properly then I expect he will be more up to speed for the next game.

Back to your backrow. You have 3 players who I rate highly but in theory all 3 can (and I think actually have in the past) play 7. That's fine but shows that they probably not major ball carriers. Okay as long as you have other carriers in the front five. Looked what happened when we (England) tried to play Robshaw, Croft & Wood. I can't remember exactly what went down on the day but my therapist says that eventually I will have to move on .

"ideas?"? Plural? As in an alternative to plan A?
If Gats has a plan B it must be throwing on Hook for the final 5mins. Plan C, the fecking roof.

Gatland would argue that we didnt even execute Plan A.

In retrospect this match was exactly like Ireland a year ago, we didn't look anywhere near like scoring in the 2nd half, just utterly dominated territory wise and the back line couldn't score in a game of 7s.

Reading the previous posts there is nothing I don't agree with.

After watching  Scotland today I believe we will struggle to score any tries through their much improved defence. We have all been talking about the lack of a plan B for the last 4 years and nothing has changed not even any of the coaches or selection policies.

I still believe Wales have a very good group of players but power play, we are at a disadvantage as we don't have the depth of these players (if anybody gets injured).

If Wales keep playing the same players regardless of form and style we can forget getting out of our group in the RWC.

Phillips, Andrews, Preistland should not be in the squad and North and JD2 should be on the bench replaced by the two Williams (Liam and Scott) and replace Phillips by Davies. The number of tries being scored through North a concern.

As stated above the forwards could not handle England as in the game last year but we made the same mistakes e., G Jenkins getting stuffed, James should have started.

alun,

Spot on really though I don't think Phillips was any worse than Webb yesterday in fact the game speeded up a bit when Phillips came on, but Webb is still No1 and hopefully it was just an off day.

Even before this weekends games I didn't fancy our trip to Scotland and that's not changed, our lineout was poor and against the Gray brothers it won't be any easier. Their pack looked solid at scrumtime though Murray won't be available so that's something I guess.

Gatland has ideas ? I thought he had plan A and errm, plan A ? Once the ref got a refresher of the laws during the break, Wales had no answer to England and were nilled in the second half. What a great team talk he must have given.

Steve_rugby wrote:Gatland has ideas ? I though he had plan A and errm, plan A ? Once the ref got a refresher of the laws during the break, Wales had no answer to England and were nilled in the second half. What a great team talk he must have given.

Gatland's plan A is simple crash ball through Jamie Roberst.......Did he play yesterday?

He (Gatland) does not seem to have a plan B.

Most discussion here is about the backs - the merits of the Williamses vs Cuthbert vs JD2, etc.  I agree with the consensus, but am more worried about the forwards. We are getting hurt in the set pieces and lack ball-carriers. But few credible options seem to be available. And here Gatland's conservatism is to blame. He has stuck with the same starters repeatedly so there is very little international experience amongst the alternatives. England, by contrast, have cover in depth across the park. Now it is partly down to their much bigger  player pool, but also selection strategy.  What happens if Faletau gets injured just before the WC?

samuraidragon wrote:Most discussion here is about the backs - the merits of the Williamses vs Cuthbert vs JD2, etc.  I agree with the consensus, but am more worried about the forwards. We are getting hurt in the set pieces and lack ball-carriers. But few credible options seem to be available. And here Gatland's conservatism is to blame. He has stuck with the same starters repeatedly so there is very little international experience amongst the alternatives. England, by contrast, have cover in depth across the park. Now it is partly down to their much bigger  player pool, but also selection strategy.  What happens if Faletau gets injured just before the WC?

At last some sanity! Wales lost because the front 5 were a poor second all game. The problem Wales have is lack of suitable replacements. Lee will hopefully be sharper next game, he has not played for a month, it was however Jenkins who appeared to struggle in the scrums. Hibbard does little in the set piece but is still better than Baldwin. Ball and Alan Wyn are quite similar and I would like to see a specialist lineout option like Charteris, but who would you drop.

As far as the backs, well its not easy to attack from behind the gain line. Webb kicked poorly but he was under pressure all game. Biggar missed another tackle to let in England's second try. Also concerned about his option taking, I only recall Roberts being sent down the no 10 channel once and that was in the second half! But Phillips looks well past his best and Priestland is no better than Biggar. So other than finding a place for Liam Williams what do you do?

JDizzle wrote:It's always easier for a s/h coming off the bench to add pace to the game than the starting 9. We consistently see it. Webb didn't have his best game yesterday, box kicking was poor but it very much looked like part of the game plan for him to take his time at the base. Plus his pass is a million times better than Phillips's.

I do agree with that too.

My opine is simply that Gatland doesn't have any ideas right now and we are in the brown and smelly right up to the roof

majesticimperialman wrote:

Steve_rugby wrote:Gatland has ideas ? I though he had plan A and errm, plan A ? Once the ref got a refresher of the laws during the break, Wales had no answer to England and were nilled in the second half. What a great team talk he must have given.

Gatland's plan A is simple crash ball through Jamie Roberst.......Did he play yesterday?

He (Gatland) does not seem to have a plan B.

Think that was kind of the gist of the post you quoted.

Seagultaf wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:Most discussion here is about the backs - the merits of the Williamses vs Cuthbert vs JD2, etc.  I agree with the consensus, but am more worried about the forwards. We are getting hurt in the set pieces and lack ball-carriers. But few credible options seem to be available. And here Gatland's conservatism is to blame. He has stuck with the same starters repeatedly so there is very little international experience amongst the alternatives. England, by contrast, have cover in depth across the park. Now it is partly down to their much bigger  player pool, but also selection strategy.  What happens if Faletau gets injured just before the WC?

At last some sanity! Wales lost because the front 5 were a poor second all game. The problem Wales have is lack of suitable replacements. Lee will hopefully be sharper next game, he has not played for a month, it was however Jenkins who appeared to struggle in the scrums. Hibbard does little in the set piece but is still better than Baldwin. Ball and Alan Wyn are quite similar and I would like to see a specialist lineout option like Charteris, but who would you drop.

As far as the backs, well its not easy to attack from behind the gain line. Webb kicked poorly but he was under pressure all game. Biggar missed another tackle to let in England's second try. Also concerned about his option taking, I only recall Roberts being sent down the no 10 channel once and that was in the second half! But Phillips looks well past his best and Priestland is no better than Biggar. So other than finding a place for Liam Williams what do you do?

Play Rob Evans and the Sheriff should be added to the squad ASAP too, if he came through the Scarlets game(s). I do think a Scarlets front five as much as possible is better for us. I would pick Tipuric, though given the way we were outmuscled second half, he wouldn't have made any difference yesterday.

My team

Williams, 1/2P, Williams, Doc, Amos, Biggar, Webb, Taulupe, Tips, Warby, Ball, AWJ, Lee, Hibs (Owen if fit), Evans.

Not wholesale changes per se. Rewards more form and has a bit more solidity in the scrums (I hope) and certainly the lineout.

Biltong wrote:Saint, first of all, kicking is part of the game, any kick is too much if it is poorly executed or poorly conceived.

In the first half the Welsh kicking was top notch, it worked in that it kept Wales in the right areas of the field and it found plenty of space behind the opposition.

In the second half however the kicking became aimless and that is when it becomes too much.

Wales did very well at the breakdowns, they were committed, their scrum looked to struggle at times, and by memory did you not lose a few line outs?

The problem for Wales lies in their predictable play, and not varying the point of attack, there are also very few attempts to offload in the tackle.

I noticed in the second half a distinct effort from the England defenders to cluster and choke tackle the runners. This a) prevented the offload b:) often led to an England scrum - Wales having failed to go to ground for the ruck. Not sure how many times I saw this, but is was an evident feature of England's second half.

The poor performance was down to the forwards being absolutely mangled in scrum and on the gainline,

I think we start Rob Evans next week and also a few other changes to keep people on their toes,

People will point to a lack of plan B. It is difficult to impose any plan without the platform of a scrum, I counted four penalties given away at scrum time. The scrums we did win, we won while going backwards which makes it more difficult for the backs to get over the gainline. That meant everyone had to work harder which meant more fatigue and more basic errors - e.g poor kicks, box kicks and missed lineouts.

I do also think too many individuals in that squad are assured of their place, which si a crime when we have so many players playing well in the squad. My starting xv for next week

Rob Evans
Owens (if fit)
Lee
Charteris
Davies
King
Warburton
Faletau

Webb
Biggar
Amos
Roberts
Scott Williams
Halpenny
Liam Williams

Dacey
James
Jarvis
Wyn Jones
Tipuric
Davies (if he is in squad?)
Anscombe

Risca Rev wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:Most discussion here is about the backs - the merits of the Williamses vs Cuthbert vs JD2, etc.  I agree with the consensus, but am more worried about the forwards. We are getting hurt in the set pieces and lack ball-carriers. But few credible options seem to be available. And here Gatland's conservatism is to blame. He has stuck with the same starters repeatedly so there is very little international experience amongst the alternatives. England, by contrast, have cover in depth across the park. Now it is partly down to their much bigger  player pool, but also selection strategy.  What happens if Faletau gets injured just before the WC?

At last some sanity! Wales lost because the front 5 were a poor second all game. The problem Wales have is lack of suitable replacements. Lee will hopefully be sharper next game, he has not played for a month, it was however Jenkins who appeared to struggle in the scrums. Hibbard does little in the set piece but is still better than Baldwin. Ball and Alan Wyn are quite similar and I would like to see a specialist lineout option like Charteris, but who would you drop.

As far as the backs, well its not easy to attack from behind the gain line. Webb kicked poorly but he was under pressure all game. Biggar missed another tackle to let in England's second try. Also concerned about his option taking, I only recall Roberts being sent down the no 10 channel once and that was in the second half! But Phillips looks well past his best and Priestland is no better than Biggar. So other than finding a place for Liam Williams what do you do?

Play Rob Evans and the Sheriff should be added to the squad ASAP too, if he came through the Scarlets game(s). I do think a Scarlets front five as much as possible is better for us. I would pick Tipuric, though given the way we were outmuscled second half, he wouldn't have made any difference yesterday.

My team

Williams, 1/2P, Williams, Doc, Amos, Biggar, Webb, Taulupe, Tips, Warby, Ball, AWJ, Lee, Hibs (Owen if fit), Evans.

Not wholesale changes per se. Rewards more form and has a bit more solidity in the scrums (I hope) and certainly the lineout.

Completey agree with both posts, although as you will see from my post above my selection is far more radical. I think we need to send a shock message to entire squad and almost start preparing to build depth for WC (hence dropping wyn jones etc)

GD,

Why King I must be missing something with him as I don't rate him at all. That would be my back line though.

I read that Jamie Roberts fears losing is shirt to another player...After Fridays game do you think he will keep his shirt?

Who can Wales bring in to the squad and give them the momemtom that they are missing?

BW - tbh I just think lydiate needs to be dropped and I dont think Tips has been on great form either. Id like to see Navidi in the squad if I am honest.

Maj - I think he will. Althought the mood I am in if Tyler Morgan was fit I would put him at 13 and scott williams at 12.

Has anyone heard about what type of preparation there was for this match. Ahead o the autumn matches there was a focus on fitness apparently? Was it the same this time?

Although completely frustrated by that performance I honestly do not buy in to this theory that we are in deep doo doo for the WC. Yes England won convinciingly. Yes they have strength in depth, but other than tuilagi what could those out atm offer over and above what we saw on Friday?

For me to solution is easy to identify - although a little harder to remedy - shore up the scrum!

GD,

Agree on Lydiate though he is there to do one job and he does it, I would shift Warburton to 6 and go with Tipuric as think the game style will suit him.

Roberts didn't play well but he has been on good form for Racing, JD on other hand not been great and not played often so I would go with Roberts n Williams.

As for prep if you read Haskells column he said some of the Welsh boys have told him they were beasted which obviously didn't work

gregortree wrote:

Biltong wrote:Saint, first of all, kicking is part of the game, any kick is too much if it is poorly executed or poorly conceived.

In the first half the Welsh kicking was top notch, it worked in that it kept Wales in the right areas of the field and it found plenty of space behind the opposition.

In the second half however the kicking became aimless and that is when it becomes too much.

Wales did very well at the breakdowns, they were committed, their scrum looked to struggle at times, and by memory did you not lose a few line outs?

The problem for Wales lies in their predictable play, and not varying the point of attack, there are also very few attempts to offload in the tackle.

I noticed in the second half a distinct effort from the England defenders to cluster and choke tackle the runners. This a) prevented the offload b:) often led to an England scrum - Wales having failed to go to ground for the ruck. Not sure how many times I saw this, but is was an evident feature of England's second half.

Yes I noticed that too. Ireland did it to us last year too (and previously I think) so I think England watched a few videos and realised we're no good at dealing with it. It's a good tactic. If you hold us up you get a turnover. If we do manage to get the ball to the ground the resultant mess on the floor means we have slow ball and potentially some attacking players stuck in the mess and not in the back line.

Ireland have been masters at it for sometime now.

Griff wrote:

gregortree wrote:

Biltong wrote:Saint, first of all, kicking is part of the game, any kick is too much if it is poorly executed or poorly conceived.

In the first half the Welsh kicking was top notch, it worked in that it kept Wales in the right areas of the field and it found plenty of space behind the opposition.

In the second half however the kicking became aimless and that is when it becomes too much.

Wales did very well at the breakdowns, they were committed, their scrum looked to struggle at times, and by memory did you not lose a few line outs?

The problem for Wales lies in their predictable play, and not varying the point of attack, there are also very few attempts to offload in the tackle.

I noticed in the second half a distinct effort from the England defenders to cluster and choke tackle the runners. This a) prevented the offload b:) often led to an England scrum - Wales having failed to go to ground for the ruck. Not sure how many times I saw this, but is was an evident feature of England's second half.

Yes I noticed that too. Ireland did it to us last year too (and previously I think) so I think England watched a few videos and realised we're no good at dealing with it. It's a good tactic. If you hold us up you get a turnover. If we do manage to get the ball to the ground the resultant mess on the floor means we have slow ball and potentially some attacking players stuck in the mess and not in the back line.

I think Haskell is the main reason for this tactic - he has been doing it all season for Wasps and has the strength and technique to do it well, I couldn't see Wood doing this as well.

Haskell had a great game I thought, would have been my MoM

As I said on the match thread, I believe that Gatland has over-coached this Welsh team. He has drummed his one and only game plan into their heads so much so that the Welsh players seem afraid to divert from it. Wales, like France, used to have that great flair and unpredictability about their play and that has vanished under Gatland.

What Wales need is for Warburton to take charge on the field (like what Martin Johnson did under SCW) and get Wales thinking and reacting to the game situation.

when you beat Scotland at a canter - will this doom and gloom dissipate at all?

Gats is a great coach, although I tend to agree with the poster and think he should be prevented from talking to the media as much as possible.
His game plan is true to the skills of the players he has at his disposal and I always thinks that is what any team should do. Play to your strengths and let the opposition adapt to your game plan if they want, but adapting I think is a sign of weakness.

MissBlennerhassett wrote:Gats is a great coach, although I tend to agree with the poster and think he should be prevented from talking to the media as much as possible.
His game plan is true to the skills of the players he has at his disposal and I always thinks that is what any team should do. Play to your strengths and let the opposition adapt to your game plan if they want, but adapting I think is a sign of weakness.

I am struggling to see how adapting to an oppositions game is a sign of weakness. England came out with a pre-defined game plan on Friday but after 10-15 mins, realised it wasn't working so adapted on field to Wales game plan, nullified it and played them off the park. Its not weakness, I feel its a strength.

Nachos Jones wrote:

MissBlennerhassett wrote:Gats is a great coach, although I tend to agree with the poster and think he should be prevented from talking to the media as much as possible.
His game plan is true to the skills of the players he has at his disposal and I always thinks that is what any team should do. Play to your strengths and let the opposition adapt to your game plan if they want, but adapting I think is a sign of weakness.

I am struggling to see how adapting to an oppositions game is a sign of weakness. England came out with a pre-defined game plan on Friday but after 10-15 mins, realised it wasn't working so adapted on field to Wales game plan, nullified it and played them off the park. Its not weakness, I feel its a strength.

Totally disagree, I don't think England changed their game plan at all. They just did it better, more accurately and upped the intensity. The great teams play their own game, to their strengths with their best starting 15. Once you start selecting specific players to counteract the opposition, or bring in new game plans, you're already handing over the advantage. Look at all the greatest teams in any sport over the years and you'll see that consistency, they may (will) evolve as a team but they won't change from week to week depending on who they're playing.

I believe that England did change their game plan, they did not pick a team to counter Wales but did visibly change their approach after going 10-0 behind. You call it upping the intensity, agreed but I also see that as a change in approach. I feel that great teams have that ability to recognise on field issues, change and adapt their approach to win games. that's exactly what England did on Friday night. Wales simply did not and continued with the same game plan / approach and got done.

There's a lot of agreement on this thread. That's not a good thing, though.

It's because this game showed us just how many problems we have.

Tactically, we have an unchanging gameplan, which works well against 2nd tier sides and sides who are under-prepared or psyched-out. But it's easy to prepare for. The fact that this has been said for the past few years, and nothing has changed, shows that the coaches think this is the best they can do, and the players have grown to agree.

The team selection highlighted how rigid this thinking has become - Liam Williams has been on fire lately, but his style is just too different and scary for Gats. The back row combo and breakdown tactics worked brilliantly for a year or two, but now that's been found out, and watching Lydiate v Haskill really highlighted how Wales have stagnated.

And then we have the long-established problem of insufficient money and talent to develop a concentrated, competitive elite level game (back in the day, Graham Henry thought Wales could support 2 professional regions, not 4).

*Sigh* World cup wimberry picking, anyone?

LondonTiger wrote:when you beat Scotland at a canter - will this doom and gloom dissipate at all?

No. I highlighted this as a potential scenario in the OP. It happens often. It happened just last year; get stuffed by Ireland, stuff France, put in a half-hearted performance against England and end up convincing losers. Scotland is a must win game but we also need to see some change.

is it too late in the day to change for the World Cup?

rumpelstiltskindoh wrote:There's a lot of agreement on this thread. That's not a good thing, though.

It's because this game showed us just how many problems we have.

Tactically, we have an unchanging gameplan, which works well against 2nd tier sides and sides who are under-prepared or psyched-out. But it's easy to prepare for. The fact that this has been said for the past few years, and nothing has changed, shows that the coaches think this is the best they can do, and the players have grown to agree.

The team selection highlighted how rigid this thinking has become - Liam Williams has been on fire lately, but his style is just too different and scary for Gats. The back row combo and breakdown tactics worked brilliantly for a year or two, but now that's been found out, and watching Lydiate v Haskill really highlighted how Wales have stagnated.

And then we have the long-established problem of insufficient money and talent to develop a concentrated, competitive elite level game (back in the day, Graham Henry thought Wales could support 2 professional regions, not 4).

*Sigh* World cup wimberry picking, anyone?      

Lydiate has always been limited, when do you ever see him making breaks or going on charges? We could have had a decent ball carrier who is in form but Navidi wasn't selected for whatever reason. Gatland won't change his game plan, he won't change the starting 15 and we're just going to have to support them.

You're right in all respects, IronMike. Lydiate's chop tackling worked brilliantly at first, because it was a skill that had been forgotten or overlooked. Now its one of the features of the Welsh game that oppositions know and prepare for, and Lyds has little else to his game (not his fault, he does what he is told).

Still - "Come on Wales!", etc

Good Op saint. Gatland gets his teams well drilled, fit and prepared to play his way and nothing else. Wales have bought into this and it's been a success up till now. Astute coaches have worked this out. Agree with griff, he's a stubborn sod and is loathed to change his ways, especially with player loyalty. He's a top coach tho, his record speaks for itself.
Huge game next week..

It was a poor team performance but I didn't think Lydiate was one of the standout poor performers. Haskell was good, but there aren't many teams who have a 6 like that right now; perhaps just Ireland, NZ and SA do. That said, the back-row combo that has been effective in the past seemed to be ineffective. I'm not sure what changes we'd make though, bringing in Tips is most certainly not the answer. I think a certain James Thomas should be called up to cover blind-side....

The Saint wrote:It was a poor team performance but I didn't think Lydiate was one of the standout poor performers. Haskell was good, but there aren't many teams who have a 6 like that right now; perhaps just Ireland, NZ and SA do. That said, the back-row combo that has been effective in the past seemed to be ineffective. I'm not sure what changes we'd make though, bringing in Tips is most certainly not the answer. I think a certain James Thomas should be called up to cover blind-side....

Its difficult to know what to do to be honest. I actually see a lot of Declan Kidney's approach in Gatland. Kidney was brilliant at first and really getting some good results, however, after the law changes and other coaches figuring out his approach, he looked very average and was so arrogant as to not change his ways. I can see Gatland going down that same path at a rate of knots. To me, its so sad to see the brilliant individuality and creativity removed from Welsh rugby.

Nachos Jones wrote:

The Saint wrote:It was a poor team performance but I didn't think Lydiate was one of the standout poor performers. Haskell was good, but there aren't many teams who have a 6 like that right now; perhaps just Ireland, NZ and SA do. That said, the back-row combo that has been effective in the past seemed to be ineffective. I'm not sure what changes we'd make though, bringing in Tips is most certainly not the answer. I think a certain James Thomas should be called up to cover blind-side....

Its difficult to know what to do to be honest. I actually see a lot of Declan Kidney's approach in Gatland. Kidney was brilliant at first and really getting some good results, however, after the law changes and other coaches figuring out his approach, he looked very average and was so arrogant as to not change his ways. I can see Gatland going down that same path at a rate of knots. To me, its so sad to see the brilliant individuality and creativity removed from Welsh rugby.

Kidney arrogant? That made me laugh! One of the most humble men going.

Breadvan wrote:Good Op saint. Gatland gets his teams well drilled, fit and prepared to play his way and nothing else. Wales have bought into this and it's been a success up till now. Astute coaches have worked this out.  Agree with griff, he's a stubborn sod and is loathed to change his ways, especially with player loyalty. He's a top coach tho, his record speaks for itself.
Huge game next week..

Ronan O'Gara's comments on Gatland.

thescore.ie wrote:O’Gara’s criticism is all the more stinging given that he has coached four current Welsh internationals during his two seasons at Racing Metro.
Warren Gatland, I think, brainwashes them into thinking that they’ll run over teams, they’re physically more dominant and fitter than teams.
“But as Mike Phillips keeps reminding me, if they’re playing South Africa or New Zealand; you can’t really say that to players. At this stage, I think they need to tweak something. It’s not good enough anymore.

http://www.the42.ie/ronan-ogara-gatland-criticism-wales-1926005-Feb2015/

Sin é wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

The Saint wrote:It was a poor team performance but I didn't think Lydiate was one of the standout poor performers. Haskell was good, but there aren't many teams who have a 6 like that right now; perhaps just Ireland, NZ and SA do. That said, the back-row combo that has been effective in the past seemed to be ineffective. I'm not sure what changes we'd make though, bringing in Tips is most certainly not the answer. I think a certain James Thomas should be called up to cover blind-side....

Its difficult to know what to do to be honest. I actually see a lot of Declan Kidney's approach in Gatland. Kidney was brilliant at first and really getting some good results, however, after the law changes and other coaches figuring out his approach, he looked very average and was so arrogant as to not change his ways. I can see Gatland going down that same path at a rate of knots. To me, its so sad to see the brilliant individuality and creativity removed from Welsh rugby.

Kidney arrogant? That made me laugh! One of the most humble men going.

Declan Kidney is and always will be a very humble man personally. I was referring to his arrogance towards the end in refusing to adjust his approach to the new laws. As a Munsterfan, Kidney will always be a legend in my eyes but he failed terribly in the last year of his tenure due to the afore mentioned reasons.

Nachos Jones wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

The Saint wrote:It was a poor team performance but I didn't think Lydiate was one of the standout poor performers. Haskell was good, but there aren't many teams who have a 6 like that right now; perhaps just Ireland, NZ and SA do. That said, the back-row combo that has been effective in the past seemed to be ineffective. I'm not sure what changes we'd make though, bringing in Tips is most certainly not the answer. I think a certain James Thomas should be called up to cover blind-side....

Its difficult to know what to do to be honest. I actually see a lot of Declan Kidney's approach in Gatland. Kidney was brilliant at first and really getting some good results, however, after the law changes and other coaches figuring out his approach, he looked very average and was so arrogant as to not change his ways. I can see Gatland going down that same path at a rate of knots. To me, its so sad to see the brilliant individuality and creativity removed from Welsh rugby.

Kidney arrogant? That made me laugh! One of the most humble men going.

Declan Kidney is and always will be a very humble man personally. I was referring to his arrogance towards the end in refusing to adjust his approach to the new laws. As a Munsterfan, Kidney will always be a legend in my eyes but he failed terribly in the last year of his tenure due to the afore mentioned reasons.

What new laws did he fail to adjust to? Lets not forget Kiss introduced the choke tackle into rugby union under Kidney's watch. Its also fairly pathetic of you not to acknowledge the injury problems that Ireland had in his last season with Ireland (i.e., Peter O'Mahony on the wing against Italy because Earls & Luke Fitz got injured), not to mention losing Sexton.

It has also worked out very well for Schmidt in that Sexton & Murray were well blooded by Kidney.

Sin é, not really sure I am being pathetic but thanks for the not being arrogant yourself there. We all know, as you do as well the laws that came into the game under Kidney's tenure. Maybe labelling him arrogant for not adjusting was a tad too far and I will change that to reluctance to change.

I know full well the injuries that affected the Ireland squad but that does not change the fact that he was one of Irelands most successful coaches who brought many players onto the International scene, players that were good enough to not seriously affect the stability of the Ireland team. He simply did not change his approach to his tactics and as a result, was not getting nearly enough out of an Ireland team than he could (possibly should) have in the last year and a bit of his tenure.

Anyway, this has gone way off topic. I was simply referring to the similarities that I personally have noticed in the decline of Ireland under Kidney towards the end and what I see may be happening to Wales under Gatland.

I could be incredibly wrong and more than likely am but that's just how I personally see it.

You have made a claim that he failed to react to the changes in laws. What law did he fail to react to?*

Even Brian O'Driscoll admits that Ireland were destroyed with injuries in his last season.

For the record, the removal of the hit in the scrum has been a great help to Ireland (& the Provinces) and a disaster for Wales - Adam Jones was very good on the 'hit'!

Gatlands a good coach but I feel the Welsh setup could do with the introduction of a new assistant/attack coach. The infusion of a new ideas every few years is very important IMO to prevent the game plan and the international camps from going stale for the players.

Gatlands been there for 8 years. It's kind of inevitable that It will stagnate without the injection of new ideas. dont think this will happen though as A) whose free at this time of year and B) gatland doesnt strike me as the kind of guy who will listen another coach.

Golden wrote:Gatlands a good coach but I feel the Welsh setup could do with the introduction of a new assistant/attack coach. The infusion of a new ideas every few years is very important IMO to prevent the game plan and the international camps from going stale for the players.

Gatlands been there for 8 years. It's kind of inevitable that It will stagnate without the injection of new ideas. dont think this will happen though as A) whose free at this time of year and B) gatland doesnt strike me as the kind of guy who will listen another coach.

If you compare Gatland to someone like Joe Schmidt the difference in how they approach games is night and day. Schmidt will change a game plan that is tailored to the team he is playing against, Gatland uses a cookie cutter from 2008 and hopes the players will execute it. And if it doesn't work, he just writes the game off and might make substitutions on the 75th minute.

Gatland would not want to be challenged by new staff. The reason why his contract was not renewed with Ireland was because he would not hire a defence coach (which Woody, who was captain, wanted him to get). Eddie O'Sullivan as backs coach was also forced on him.

IronMike wrote:

Golden wrote:Gatlands a good coach but I feel the Welsh setup could do with the introduction of a new assistant/attack coach. The infusion of a new ideas every few years is very important IMO to prevent the game plan and the international camps from going stale for the players.

Gatlands been there for 8 years. It's kind of inevitable that It will stagnate without the injection of new ideas. dont think this will happen though as A) whose free at this time of year and B) gatland doesnt strike me as the kind of guy who will listen another coach.

If you compare Gatland to someone like Joe Schmidt the difference in how they approach games is night and day. Schmidt will change a game plan that is tailored to the team he is playing against, Gatland uses a cookie cutter from 2008 and hopes the players will execute it. And if it doesn't work, he just writes the game off and might make substitutions on the 75th minute.

Not sure about that. I think Schmidt just plays very low risk rugby.

TheRugbyMaster wrote:The Welsh problems begin and end with distribution from the ruck in broken play.

Rhys Webb and Philips were clones of each other. They offered nothing. Welsh players were carrying fearlessly and creating what should've been momentum.mbut at each breakdown Webb and then Philips held a committee meeting,pointing and mouthing off and dallying, then either a shuffling pass to a lateral and leaden footed mid fielder or forward who was enveloped by a waiting and set line.

Both are too slow to arrive, too indecisive and kicked away possession continually and with no accuracy. Wales threatened just once in the game. Once. Due to England's awful narrow defence, they scored.

The back line all but gave up, had no chance to run lines, and halfpenny was only engaged when returning the ball from deeps - notably with little in the way of support.

It was a snail paced lack lustre abomination. Can this be what garland is coaching? I hope not.

Couldn't agree more RugbyMaster. Why our 9's feel the need to direct the forwards into position at every ruck I have no idea. If they don't know where to stand to protect the 9 by now, they will never know.
Another point. Hopefully, Gats now knows we will never out muscle England so how about trying something different and going for a back row of Tips, Warbs and Toby to try and win using a faster game. Lydiate offers nothing but a tackling game. Pretty sure that Tips knows how to tackle so what have we got to lose other than a bit of grunt which is not working for us anyway.