Time to get rid of the scrum?

First topic message reminder :

Ok, this might be a little bit sensationalized heading, but.....

The way the scrum is now can not, and should not be allowed to continue

All 3 games (and almost every game that now is played) were mired by the inconsistent and frankly baffling scrum decisions - with most scrums not ending up with the ball coming out. No-one had a clue why one team got awarded free kick / penalty / re-set vs the other and it seemed to be random decisions

It is ruining the game of rugby!

The scrum is now determining the outcomes of matches and is becoming too much of an important factor in a game.

It is being used to get points, win games and get players sin binned, rather than a way to re-set the game while tieing in some players

It is not what the scrum was created for

The way it is now is the same as awarding a penalty for a squint throw at a line out - the 'penalty' far out ways the crime

So how do we fix the scrum, because in actual fact I like the concept of the scrum and the real battle for the ball

My thought - instead of awarding a penalty for an infringement award a free kick instead - less incentive to 'drop' the scrum or cheat (which all teams try to do) and means that you can have a royal battle for the ball without fear of being sent of

What your thoughts

Sorry, but I have to bring this up again

2 games and the scrums have been a joke - completely a toss of the coin on what the decision is - about 90% not being completed -

It is one aspect of the game that is destroying it and needs fixed

Austin Healey was tearing his hair out over the scrums in the Exeter-Bath game. Given how much he paid to have new thatch installed, you can imagine how frustrated he was.

When a fairly clued-up commentator like Ben Kay spends a match telling you that the referee has probably got his scrum decision wrong again, then it begins to wear you down as a viewer.

When the referees began penalizing crooked feeds again, we celebrated the return of hooking. Unfortunately, the dynamics of the scrum have changed so much, hooking sides can be pushed off their own ball despite having the advantage of deciding when to put the ball in.

As a consequence, it seems some referees have gone back to ignoring crooked feeds which means we are in lottery mode again.

It's shambles. Watch older games when the front rows controlled engagement. It was a much cleaner and quicker affair. Often the scrum was formed and stable long before the half went to collect the ball for the feed. No idea why it was messed with.

Italy seemed to have the upper hand in the scrums when it mattered, so no surprise to see this thread re-emerge. There was some good, solid scrums in the France vs Wales game, both seemed a bit even and the penalty count there was fairly low. But according to quinsforever our scrum was constantly creaking, yet we win the game and Samson Lee gets MOTM - work that one out because he's a real headscratcher.

Rugby Fan wrote:Austin Healey was tearing his hair out over the scrums in the Exeter-Bath game. Given how much he paid to have new thatch installed, you can imagine how frustrated he was.

When a fairly clued-up commentator like Ben Kay spends a match telling you that the referee has probably got his scrum decision wrong again, then it begins to wear you down as a viewer.

When the referees began penalizing crooked feeds again, we celebrated the return of hooking. Unfortunately, the dynamics of the scrum have changed so much, hooking sides can be pushed off their own ball despite having the advantage of deciding when to put the ball in.

As a consequence, it seems some referees have gone back to ignoring crooked feeds which means we are in lottery mode again.

I see it the other way round, its when the ball is fed straight that the lottery occurs.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Austin Healey was tearing his hair out over the scrums in the Exeter-Bath game. Given how much he paid to have new thatch installed, you can imagine how frustrated he was.

When a fairly clued-up commentator like Ben Kay spends a match telling you that the referee has probably got his scrum decision wrong again, then it begins to wear you down as a viewer.

When the referees began penalizing crooked feeds again, we celebrated the return of hooking. Unfortunately, the dynamics of the scrum have changed so much, hooking sides can be pushed off their own ball despite having the advantage of deciding when to put the ball in.

As a consequence, it seems some referees have gone back to ignoring crooked feeds which means we are in lottery mode again.

I see it the other way round, its when the ball is fed straight that the lottery occurs.

Agreed. I know it's meant to be a competition for the ball, but I'd be very happy for the crooked feed to be accepted. If you win a scrum I think you deserve to have some sort of advantage from that, beyond being pushed off the ball and penalised because your hooker isn't able to put all his weight through. If you collapse it our whatever, fine, but seems a bit unfair at the moment.

The Saint wrote:Italy seemed to have the upper hand in the scrums when it mattered, so no surprise to see this thread re-emerge. There was some good, solid scrums in the France vs Wales game, both seemed a bit even and the penalty count there was fairly low. But according to quinsforever our scrum was constantly creaking, yet we win the game and Samson Lee gets MOTM - work that one out because he's a real headscratcher.

Not to mention Samson Lee had to basically play for 80 minutes because of no appropriate cover on the bench, Jarvis shouldn't be anywhere near the team.

That fat guy Atonio is a terrible scrummager and was broken in half on several occasions.

Italy's decision to drop Castro for Cittadini probably won them the match in the end.

My main problem with the scrum is the amount of time it takes to get one going, has to be nearly a minute each scrum and that s before you have a reset or the ball is put in.

so much time is being wasted by the Ref.

TightHEAD wrote:My main problem with the scrum is the amount of time it takes to get one going, has to be nearly a minute each scrum and that s before you have a reset or the ball is put in.

so much time is being wasted by the Ref.

Agreed. On Saturday before the Wales v France game, BBC Wales showed some highlghts of the same fixture in 1999. It was so refreshing to see two packs go down as soon as a scrum was called.

I'm a huge fan of scummaging (as an ex scrum half) and even though we are in better shape than a couple of years ago it's still a mess.

TheRugbyMaster wrote:It's  shambles. Watch older games when the front rows controlled engagement. It was a much cleaner and quicker affair. Often the scrum was formed and stable long before the half went to collect the ball for the feed. No idea why it was messed with.

I believe that the general opinion is that it has been constantly tinkered with over the last 10 years to try and keep the Australians on-side (albeit under the guise of injury prevention), basically the Aussies can't scrum and apparently scrums aren't good for their TV figures as the viewers are more used to the non-contested RL scrum.

There was nothing wrong with the old set and shove of previous years and it was a lot easier to referee, mainly becuase the referees kept out of it.

Bring back a proper scrum!

I have never heard those reasons for the Australians prefering the recommencement of play by a faster scrum, but what I have heard from Aussies is that there is  more Rugby in a game of Rugby League than there is in a game of Rugby Union. in fact League scrums are so good they dont even need lineouts, they have a scrum.

Might  not pay to be too dissmissve of those TV figures either, Aussie Rugby League is into their third year of a five year deal with its broadcasters,  Worth $1.025 Billion. Rugby Union could never get near that.

Dont underestimate the damage that scrums do to Rugby Union.

aucklandlaurie wrote:I have never heard those reasons for the Australians prefering the recommencement of play by a faster scrum, but what I have heard from Aussies is that there is  more Rugby in a game of Rugby League than there is in a game of Rugby Union. in fact League scrums are so good they dont even need lineouts, they have a scrum.

Might  not pay to be too dissmissve of those TV figures either, Aussie Rugby League is into their third year of a five year deal with its broadcasters,  Worth $1.025 Billion. Rugby Union could never get near that.

Dont underestimate the damage that scrums do to Rugby Union.

Interesting perspective Laurie. My own assumption was that scrum changes were largely driven by safety concerns and that other experimental rules were looked at to "speed up the game" and get more rugby into the Union game. Either way I'm not sure I'd say that scrums "damage" Union - perhaps financially in Australia but nowhere else. My understanding is that in Australia 4x more people participate in League than Union, the only major rugby nation where it dominates (?). In England, including all levels of participation the figure is about 20X in favour of Union. Scrums matter a lot to the huge majority of Unions fans and despite the rule changes they are still a mess.

Make an accidental knock on a free kick not a scrum.
When the ball is at the feet of the no8 there should be a time limit to play the ball thereby stopping teams waiting for a penalty.

1, Time off for scrum time
2, Straight feed but at the time of the sh's choosing, giving advantage to the side in possession
3, Free kicks instead of penaties (though penalty tries should remain) backed up with Yellow cards
4, 'use it' call if held at back of the scrum and not attempting pushover try

Why does the engagement of a scrum have to be such a collision (I know the hit has been reduced but it's still there),if the engagement was made like it is with uncontested scrums then both sides could settle in and just push when the ball is fed.I think any early shove would be more obvious and it would also stop teams from stepping back to make it look like the opposition are shoving early.

We can't 'get rid' of the scrum- who do you restart after a knock on?- but we could change it to a league style huddle…that would improve the game wouldn't it? Persoanlly i think we should go back to the good old days…no words, just bind up and crash together ball in, ball out. Job done. It is the rules and tweaks that are ruining it. As someone once said, before Tony Blair you could do almost anything in the UK as long as there wasn't a law against it, after Tony Blair you could only do something if a law said you could. My totally subliminal point being that the constant rules and changes are turning it into a farce. Take the shackles off and just restart the game, free kick to the opposition if you don't have the ball in immediately. Free kick the first time the scrum goes down etc. Or, sack it entirely and replace with a free kick restart. Would be sad and the end of Rugby Union.

Just the tighthead, the loosehead and the hooker. That's all that should be involved. Two sets of those guys, give them the carpark to fight it out for the 80 and the game goes on inside.

It's the childish messing of those three guys (six guys) that hold the show up
It gets really laughable when the ref starts telling them the rules!!!!!!!!!!!!????????????? These guys have been Professionals for four, five or ten years and they're still at school during an International?