Wales bad team over night or fading star?

First topic message reminder :

Ive heard varying opinions over what Wales result against England means. The consensus is that 'Wales haven't become a bad team over night'.

I've had a look at Wales results over the past 18 months (covering a relevant time frame). Wales have played 16 test matches won 7 and lost 9. So Wales have won only 44% of their games since November 2013.

Wales certainly are not a 'bad' team but surely these results show that Wales are also a average team and have fallen fairly dramatically from their days as being the best in the NH?

samuraidragon wrote:Concern is Wales success has been built on an unusually (for Wales)  powerful pack, allowing half-backs to ship front-foot ball to big, fast, highly-conditioned three quarters.  Now advantages of power and fitness are fading, set-piece is creaking, we're getting out-muscled and out-mauled.  Good thing Richie Gray went off early, as he was a handful.

We can no longer rely on power plays stemming from ownership of the heaviest pack in the NH, which was anyway an aberrant and temporary state of affairs. Again, unusually for Wales, we have lacked guile at half-back for quite some time  and, with Shane gone, have no unpredictability / X factor on the wing. Players seem mentally stale and unable to think strategically  on the park.  Talking of which, why on earth didn't Halfpenny  take that shot at goal towards the end of the match? Instead we kicked for the corner and in the blink of an eye Scotland nearly scored at the other end (the Webb "high tackle" incident).

Situation cries out for a new game-plan, using more creativity and  footballing intelligence, probably with new blood in the line-up.  

That will be the way ahead after Gatland goes  and he may well be gone by this time next year.

SD,

I agree with most of that but why doesn't he try and blend a bit of both. His reliance on Roberts, JD, North and Cuthbert has been blinkered at the least, I am pretty sure that a Roberts and Sc Williams centre pairing would work as well if not better given Williams is on fire and more of rugby player than a bosh merchant but even then he is no lightweight. Same can be said about Liam Williams starting in place of North or Cuthbert as you then have a bit of both.

That said it would take a complete change of mindset from the coaches and that's where the problem lies.

You guys Samurai & Bedford are talking sense. Are you listening though Gats?

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:You guys Samurai & Bedford are talking sense. Are you listening though Gats?

Trev,

I have said for sometime that I still think Gatland should remain and getting rid now anyway would be mad but he needs to change or at least tweak his style. The two biggest problems for me are McBryde and Howley I have never rated any of them as a coach and when you think they are forwards and attack coaches respectively then look at how poor our set piece and attack has been surely that say it all.

Griff wrote:

beshocked wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:I don't actually think the 6 Nations has been bad for Wales so far.  Psychologically they and England both know that Wales didn't turn up really and they still only just lost.  It seems pretty obvious that Gatland is more concerned about the world cup than the 6 Nations and I think Wales are in a decent place for it.  

They only just lost on the scoreboard, but were nilled in the 2nd half and never looked like scoring outside of the first 10 minutes. They were better at the breakdown 1st half overall but there is little else to take comfort from. They manufactured more chances last year vs England when they lost by a greater margin.

Scotland/Wales was a close game because both teams had good chances to win it, and Wales won because they were much more clinical with their chances.

Absolutely agree. Also the scoreline could have been far greater if Haskell hadn't run into the post and if an England try wasn't unfairly disallowed for "obstruction". Oh and the game was in Wales.

Wales didn't seem to have another gear against either England or Scotland though a lot of credit must be given for managing to absorb a lot of pressure in the 2nd half of each match - it was enough vs Scotland but against England they didn't offer enough.

By that sentiment the scoreline could have been less to England too if North had grabbed Joseph's shirt rather than grabbing air! But that would be ridiculous. My point: you can't guess a different outcome based on ifs and buts! You sound like a Scotland fan!

Spot on Griff. However, I fixed an error for you

rainbow-warrior wrote:Lost a close match to England by 5 points beat Scotland away.  Played P8ss poor in both games but hardly all doom and gloom.  Dreamers and WUM's make of it what you will.  
Certainly agree that Wales lost the game rather that England winning it after all isn't that the way when the scores are reversed.... well unless there's 27 points in it.

Ah rainbow-warrior, another who has suddenly found his wifi password after a couple of weeks! Jolly good to see you back old chum

bedfordwelsh wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:Concern is Wales success has been built on an unusually (for Wales)  powerful pack, allowing half-backs to ship front-foot ball to big, fast, highly-conditioned three quarters.  Now advantages of power and fitness are fading, set-piece is creaking, we're getting out-muscled and out-mauled.  Good thing Richie Gray went off early, as he was a handful.

We can no longer rely on power plays stemming from ownership of the heaviest pack in the NH, which was anyway an aberrant and temporary state of affairs. Again, unusually for Wales, we have lacked guile at half-back for quite some time  and, with Shane gone, have no unpredictability / X factor on the wing. Players seem mentally stale and unable to think strategically  on the park.  Talking of which, why on earth didn't Halfpenny  take that shot at goal towards the end of the match? Instead we kicked for the corner and in the blink of an eye Scotland nearly scored at the other end (the Webb "high tackle" incident).

Situation cries out for a new game-plan, using more creativity and  footballing intelligence, probably with new blood in the line-up.  

That will be the way ahead after Gatland goes  and he may well be gone by this time next year.

SD,

I agree with most of that but why doesn't he try and blend a bit of both.  His reliance on Roberts, JD, North and Cuthbert has been blinkered at the least, I am pretty sure that a Roberts and Sc Williams centre pairing would work as well if not better given Williams is on fire and more of rugby player than a bosh merchant but even then he is no lightweight.  Same can be said about Liam Williams starting in place of North or Cuthbert as you then have a bit of both.

That said it would take a complete change of mindset from the coaches and that's where the problem lies.

I'm not sure I like North being lumped in with the 'bash bash bosh' merchants on his team. Yes of course he can bash people - he's 6'4" in a positon were others generally are not so big. However, if you look at one of his many highlight reels he is really good in open play. He can skin people, run good lines, good angles, show people a clean pair of heels, etc. He's scored some really good tries for Saints this year running from deep. So I don't think he needs dropping for a more running winger - he is a running winger. He just needs to either come in field and look for work or we need to create some space for him to show what he can do. Roberts on the other hand is a bosh merchant. He's not one for open spaces! He'd find contact on an empty pitch! But it's good to have a blend I feel. I love a centre partnership like Scott Gibbs and Guscott, or Gibbs and Grenwood - one crash ball, one more running. Two crash ball centres just stops everything dead, and while I appreciate that JD2 isn't a typical crash ball merchant he's more blunt than he is subtle. We need a play making 13 desperately. Even though I'm no big fan of Hook as he has been too inconsistent at 10, flaky at 15 and a revolving door at 12, ive quite liked him at 13. I think he has/had the pace, vision, creativity to play that positon and provide an alternative if the crash ball 12 is not used. Anyone else like him around at the moment? Tyler Morgan in the future? What about Cory Allen? Haven't really been keeping up to date on his progress. What sort of player is he?

I think the starting xv are too assured of their positions and are not being pushed to play to their full potential.

Following 2011 6n gats freshened up the squad, I do believe there are players there that can be given a go - Rob Evans, Morgan, Amos

bedfordwelsh wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:You guys Samurai & Bedford are talking sense. Are you listening though Gats?

Trev,

I have said for sometime that I still think Gatland should remain and getting rid now anyway would be mad but he needs to change or at least tweak his style.  The two biggest problems for me are McBryde and Howley I have never rated any of them as a coach and when you think they are forwards and attack coaches respectively then look at how poor our set piece and attack has been surely that say it all.

Beds

I would agree with you if the players you refer too played differently at club level, but they don't.

For me Biggar needs to pull his finger out. I think that knock vs england has dulled his impact. He's better than he has been in the last two games.

Griff wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

samuraidragon wrote:Concern is Wales success has been built on an unusually (for Wales)  powerful pack, allowing half-backs to ship front-foot ball to big, fast, highly-conditioned three quarters.  Now advantages of power and fitness are fading, set-piece is creaking, we're getting out-muscled and out-mauled.  Good thing Richie Gray went off early, as he was a handful.

We can no longer rely on power plays stemming from ownership of the heaviest pack in the NH, which was anyway an aberrant and temporary state of affairs. Again, unusually for Wales, we have lacked guile at half-back for quite some time  and, with Shane gone, have no unpredictability / X factor on the wing. Players seem mentally stale and unable to think strategically  on the park.  Talking of which, why on earth didn't Halfpenny  take that shot at goal towards the end of the match? Instead we kicked for the corner and in the blink of an eye Scotland nearly scored at the other end (the Webb "high tackle" incident).

Situation cries out for a new game-plan, using more creativity and  footballing intelligence, probably with new blood in the line-up.  

That will be the way ahead after Gatland goes  and he may well be gone by this time next year.

SD,

I agree with most of that but why doesn't he try and blend a bit of both.  His reliance on Roberts, JD, North and Cuthbert has been blinkered at the least, I am pretty sure that a Roberts and Sc Williams centre pairing would work as well if not better given Williams is on fire and more of rugby player than a bosh merchant but even then he is no lightweight.  Same can be said about Liam Williams starting in place of North or Cuthbert as you then have a bit of both.

That said it would take a complete change of mindset from the coaches and that's where the problem lies.

I'm not sure I like North being lumped in with the 'bash bash bosh' merchants on his team. Yes of course he can bash people - he's 6'4" in a positon were others generally are not so big. However, if you look at one of his many highlight reels he is really good in open play. He can skin people, run good lines, good angles, show people a clean pair of heels, etc. He's scored some really good tries for Saints this year running from deep. So I don't think he needs dropping for a more running winger - he is a running winger. He just needs to either come in field and look for work or we need to create some space for him to show what he can do. Roberts on the other hand is a bosh merchant. He's not one for open spaces! He'd find contact on an empty pitch! But it's good to have a blend I feel. I love a centre partnership like Scott Gibbs and Guscott, or Gibbs and Grenwood - one crash ball, one more running. Two crash ball centres just stops everything dead, and while I appreciate that JD2 isn't a typical crash ball merchant he's more blunt than he is subtle. We need a play making 13 desperately. Even though I'm no big fan of Hook as he has been too inconsistent at 10, flaky at 15 and a revolving door at 12, ive quite liked him at 13. I think he has/had the pace, vision, creativity to play that positon and provide an alternative if the crash ball 12 is not used. Anyone else like him around at the moment? Tyler Morgan in the future? What about Cory Allen? Haven't really been keeping up to date on his progress.  What sort of player is he?

Fair point Griff maybe (no sorry it is ) the way we use them rather than them just being one dimensional, even Cuthbert has shown clean pair heels/outside etc to opposite numbers. Norths form for Saints is good as you pointed down to the way Saints use him. We should even use Roberts more as a dummy runner sometimes, I think Allen is out injured but from reports not on best of form, then again not sure how much you can judge Blues players by at the mo given all the hassles going on down there.

Its a long while off I think but with Gatlands preference to big lumps then I think Jack Dixon won't be far off maybe him and Morgan at 12 n 13 ready for the 2019 WC

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:You guys Samurai & Bedford are talking sense. Are you listening though Gats?

Trev,

I have said for sometime that I still think Gatland should remain and getting rid now anyway would be mad but he needs to change or at least tweak his style.  The two biggest problems for me are McBryde and Howley I have never rated any of them as a coach and when you think they are forwards and attack coaches respectively then look at how poor our set piece and attack has been surely that say it all.

Beds

I would agree with you if the players you refer too played differently at club level, but they don't.

For me Biggar needs to pull his finger out. I think that knock vs england has dulled his impact. He's better than he has been in the last two games.

Maes,

The two players I referred were the Williams' and they have been the two form backs in Wales and would give us something different to either Roberts/Davies or North/Cuthbert

BamBam wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:Lost a close match to England by 5 points beat Scotland away.  Played P8ss poor in both games but hardly all doom and gloom.  Dreamers and WUM's make of it what you will.  
Certainly agree that Wales lost the game rather that England winning it after all isn't that the way when the scores are reversed.... well unless there's 27 points in it.

Ah rainbow-warrior, another who has suddenly found his wifi password after a couple of weeks! Jolly good to see you back old chum

Been no where pal. Wi-fi password??? Really!

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:You guys Samurai & Bedford are talking sense. Are you listening though Gats?

Trev,

I have said for sometime that I still think Gatland should remain and getting rid now anyway would be mad but he needs to change or at least tweak his style.  The two biggest problems for me are McBryde and Howley I have never rated any of them as a coach and when you think they are forwards and attack coaches respectively then look at how poor our set piece and attack has been surely that say it all.

Beds

I would agree with you if the players you refer too played differently at club level, but they don't.

For me Biggar needs to pull his finger out. I think that knock vs england has dulled his impact. He's better than he has been in the last two games.

Maes,

The two players I referred  were the Williams' and they have been the two form backs in Wales and would give us something different to either Roberts/Davies or North/Cuthbert

The forwards and the backs not specially Davies and Roberts, North etc...!

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:You guys Samurai & Bedford are talking sense. Are you listening though Gats?

Trev,

I have said for sometime that I still think Gatland should remain and getting rid now anyway would be mad but he needs to change or at least tweak his style.  The two biggest problems for me are McBryde and Howley I have never rated any of them as a coach and when you think they are forwards and attack coaches respectively then look at how poor our set piece and attack has been surely that say it all.

Beds

I would agree with you if the players you refer too played differently at club level, but they don't.

For me Biggar needs to pull his finger out. I think that knock vs england has dulled his impact. He's better than he has been in the last two games.

Maes,

The two players I referred  were the Williams' and they have been the two form backs in Wales and would give us something different to either Roberts/Davies or North/Cuthbert

The forwards and the backs not specially Davies and Roberts, North etc...!

Bare in mind though that Howley and McBryde are dealing with the cream of the crop in Wales rather than just Regional level players they should at least be able to make sure we have a stable set piece and a functional lineout and at least make us look threatening in attack.

Well I have for sometime now been saying that Paul James should start for us, some have agreed others not so but when the legend the legend that is Graham Price says same who am I to argue.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Well I have for sometime now been saying that Paul James should start for us, some have agreed others not so but when the legend the legend that is Graham Price says same who am I to argue.

No but both of you could open your eyes and see the bleeding obvious, because James quite clearly showed he was not our best LH in his last Wales start; nor has he made a big enough impact when coming off the bench in recent games.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Well I have for sometime now been saying that Paul James should start for us, some have agreed others not so but when the legend the legend that is Graham Price says same who am I to argue.

BW, I agree, he is a much better scrummager than Gethin and as far as I'm concerned it his his primary job, can't remember who but somebody on here keeps repeating that he keeps on getting pinged, I don't know whether you watched our game yesterday on Sky and one of the commentators said our Moldovan prop Arhip has been also pinged numerous times, yet if you asked the majority of our supporters they would opt for him before Jarvis

James is too thick to be a really good international prop. Jenkins is an intelligent player and we need brains. Wales lost to England because we were stupid, bad calls, poor tactical decisions by players lacking in the ability to make instinctively good decisions..

Without Adam Jones as well, we are lacking massively. Because Samson lee is not a very bright lad either.

Picking James as first choice LH is a tried and tested failure.
I agree with JD1 on getting Tipuric in the game earlier. Again he plays heads up rugby.

But Jenkins now has a rep with refs as a poor scrummager who snaps at the waist - the sign of awful strength and technique. TBH I think I would rather play James. And the other change that makes sense is to play Tipuric at 7 - which of course will never happen to Warby.

Jenkins has been awful in the scrum in the last 2 games and for me that is what he is there for first and foremost, Jenkins is getting pinged constantly at the moment as well and like I said if the legend that is Pricey says so then it's good enough for me .

Of course we all know it won't happen because Jenkins is one of Gatlands untouchables so we will continue to get smashed in the scrum and give away penalty after penalty.

I imagine we will see one change this week and that's Williams over Cuthbert though I am not totally convinced he will make that call either.

Gwlad wrote:But Jenkins now has a rep with refs as a poor scrummager who snaps at the waist - the sign of awful strength and technique. TBH I think I would rather play James. And the other change that makes sense is to play Tipuric at 7 - which of course will never happen to Warby.

I think Wales had a very effective scrum under the old engagement, with two big guys who were very good at winning the hit (whether by fair means or dark arts) and securing a steady stream of penalties. For what it's worth, I think a big part of that hinged (pun intended) on binding in a way that gave huge leverage over the opposing prop's upper body.

Under the new engagement, the emphasis has changed from power and angles at the hit to being able to maintain a strong body position under pressure over a period of time, and the Welsh scrum just doesn't seem to have adapted to this as well as their counterparts. That might partly be down to simply not having enough props to choose from, but it also suggests a failure of coaching.

As for Warburton/Tipuric, I think Wales have played better whenever I've seen them both on the pitch together. I've never been as impressed with Lydiate as many people seem to be - he's very, very good at one thing but I'm not convinced the balance of the back row is better with him than with the other two together.

Gatland seems to me a bit of an idee fixe kind of coach - almost the opposite of McGeechan, who seemed to me the master of identifying the strengths in the players at his disposal and finding ways to use them together. I suspect he still has a lot to add to the game, but I wonder if he needs a higher powered assistant who can challenge him. As an England fan, I kind of hope we don't find out.

Poorfour wrote:

Gwlad wrote:But Jenkins now has a rep with refs as a poor scrummager who snaps at the waist - the sign of awful strength and technique. TBH I think I would rather play James. And the other change that makes sense is to play Tipuric at 7 - which of course will never happen to Warby.

I think Wales had a very effective scrum under the old engagement, with two big guys who were very good at winning the hit (whether by fair means or dark arts) and securing a steady stream of penalties. For what it's worth, I think a big part of that hinged (pun intended) on binding in a way that gave huge leverage over the opposing prop's upper body.

Under the new engagement, the emphasis has changed from power and angles at the hit to being able to maintain a strong body position under pressure over a period of time, and the Welsh scrum just doesn't seem to have adapted to this as well as their counterparts. That might partly be down to simply not having enough props to choose from, but it also suggests a failure of coaching.

As for Warburton/Tipuric, I think Wales have played better whenever I've seen them both on the pitch together. I've never been as impressed with Lydiate as many people seem to be - he's very, very good at one thing but I'm not convinced the balance of the back row is better with him than with the other two together.

Gatland seems to me a bit of an idee fixe kind of coach - almost the opposite of McGeechan, who seemed to me the master of identifying the strengths in the players at his disposal and finding ways to use them together. I suspect he still has a lot to add to the game, but I wonder if he needs a higher powered assistant who can challenge him. As an England fan, I kind of hope we don't find out.

I'd agree with pretty much all of that.

The scrum's become a problem for us in the last year. I'd still have Adam Jones in the squad as he rarely goes backwards even though he isnt dominating any more. Samson Lee is a such a young player to become the foundations for a scrum at test level. I'd advocate using Rob Evans at LH (even just off the bench) and I'd look to get Ken Owens back in the frame ASAP (and getting Dacey involved - he and rob Evans look mobile, intelligent ball playing forwards who dont mind doing the work in the tight).

I've said for some time now that Warbs/Tips is a very good flank partnership, destructive and creative in some measure. I'd also advocate trying Faletau at 6 if Dan Baker comes back from injury well and can recapture his form of the earlier season, hes a very good ball-carrying 8 and I think Faletau is a great all-rounder.

As far as the backs go, swap JD2 for Scott Williams, Swap Cuthbert for North and tell Rhys Webb if he wants to play like Mike Phillips he'll be dropped from the squad because everything good about his game is going missing and hes becoming a smaller, weaker Phillips - which to me says it all about the coaching.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Jenkins has been awful in the scrum in the last 2 games and for me that is what he is there for first and foremost, Jenkins is getting pinged constantly at the moment as well and like I said if the legend that is Pricey says so then it's good enough for me .

Of course we all know it won't happen because Jenkins is one of Gatlands untouchables so we will continue to get smashed in the scrum and give away penalty after penalty.

I imagine we will see one change this week and that's Williams over Cuthbert though I am not totally convinced he will make that call either.

Hold on you claim he has been pinged 'constantly' these past few games. Tell me how many times he got pinged then because from what I know he got pinged twice against England and once against Scotland. But people fail to remember that Dan Cole also got pinged twice (once in the scrum) and also gave a free kick to us at scrum time. It really confuses me when people say he gets pinged all the time because he is getting smashed in the scrum. Considering we had Aaron Jarvis at tight head last Saturday as well our scrum done well as Gethin had the nudge on Cross most the time.

The man is our best loosehead and overall one of our best players in the team. Paul James IS NOT the answer, either Rob Evans or Nicky Smith (when fit) should be second pick behind Gethin and ahead of James.

Also if you watch scrum V back at the end of Grahams segment on the front row argument he said he would keep with Gethin, Hibbard and Lee. The whole point of his speech was that Adam should still be in the welsh team and that he didn't understand how Paul James could still be picked as an impact player and Adam couldn't as both there strengths are scrummaging; he never actually said he would start Paul ahead of Gethin.

The fact that Wales has such a small population it is actually fairly remarkable they are able to produce such talent. I reckon they have as many top quality rugby player as Ireland anyway yet we have a significantally bigger population. Same goes for Samoa and Fiji.

GunsGerms wrote:The fact that Wales has such a small population it is actually fairly remarkable they are able to produce such talent. I reckon they have as many top quality rugby player as Ireland anyway yet we have a significantally bigger population. Same goes for Samoa and Fiji.

They (Wales) should have though.  They've been longer at it than us in a culturally pervasive way.  In Ireland, the game has only become 'commonerfied' in the last 15 or so years.
It's us that's doing pretty damn okay for ourselves in comparison - against some of the odds we started out with when Professionalism began.

NZ can't have a much bigger population than Wales can it?

Its a little bigger alright.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The fact that Wales has such a small population it is actually fairly remarkable they are able to produce such talent. I reckon they have as many top quality rugby player as Ireland anyway yet we have a significantally bigger population. Same goes for Samoa and Fiji.

They (Wales) should have though.  They've been longer at it than us in a culturally pervasive way.  In Ireland, the game has only become 'commonerfied' in the last 15 or so years.
It's us that's doing pretty damn okay for ourselves in comparison - against some of the odds we started out with when Professionalism began.

I reckon that is a bit of a myth to be honest.

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The fact that Wales has such a small population it is actually fairly remarkable they are able to produce such talent. I reckon they have as many top quality rugby player as Ireland anyway yet we have a significantally bigger population. Same goes for Samoa and Fiji.

They (Wales) should have though.  They've been longer at it than us in a culturally pervasive way.  In Ireland, the game has only become 'commonerfied' in the last 15 or so years.
It's us that's doing pretty damn okay for ourselves in comparison - against some of the odds we started out with when Professionalism began.

I reckon that is a bit of a myth to be honest.

I don't.  The myth is that it's a myth because people have short memories and want to somehow feel they were always at the heart of things.  We weren't.  Rugby in Wales is much more deep seated and endemic culturally than it is still only truly becoming in Ireland.  
I don't think the 'growth' has reached a peak yet in Ireland but I do know it's taken us longer to allow the sport to become a natural part of us than can be said about Wales.  Rugby in Wales was their GAA...it's in their DNA- you can see it in the way they play it when they're not controlled by an overly systems orientated coach - much more free-spirited, instinctive and inventive than any of the other 'Home' nations.

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The fact that Wales has such a small population it is actually fairly remarkable they are able to produce such talent. I reckon they have as many top quality rugby player as Ireland anyway yet we have a significantally bigger population. Same goes for Samoa and Fiji.

They (Wales) should have though.  They've been longer at it than us in a culturally pervasive way.  In Ireland, the game has only become 'commonerfied' in the last 15 or so years.
It's us that's doing pretty damn okay for ourselves in comparison - against some of the odds we started out with when Professionalism began.

I reckon that is a bit of a myth to be honest.

I don't.  The myth is that it's a myth because people have short memories and want to somehow feel they were always at the heart of things.  We weren't.  Rugby in Wales is much more deep seated and endemic culturally than it is still only truly becoming in Ireland.  
I don't think the 'growth' has reached a peak yet in Ireland but I do know it's taken us longer to allow the sport to become a natural part of us than can be said about Wales.  Rugby in Wales was their GAA...it's in their DNA- you can see it in the way they play it when they're not controlled by an overly systems orientated coach - much more free-spirited, instinctive and inventive than any of the other 'Home' nations.

Stop Fly, you're bringing a tear to my eye! Oh, the memories...

I would like to see Evans Owens and Lee in the red of Wales in the not to distant future.

The best scrum in Wales is Scarlets. Pick Rob Evans, Owens and Lee...

For those on about Jenkins giving away penalties, James gives away the same amount of penalties... Our front row are giving away penalties...

The players need to work harder on their set piece.

Walss are class all over the pitch, but what's gone wrong is sticking to the predictable game plan. The rush defence is well understood now. Teams just kick kick kick until Wales are exhausted and then whop them in the last quarter. On attack Wales are still trying to load the midfield and teams are merely aligning big units to counter it. Behind the ruck Wales are pedestrian even when they get over the gain line they just wait for the opposition defence to set. Changes needed at 9 and coach.

I notice Webb is coming in for some stick, does anyone believe he's being told to kick it all the time? He tends to play better for the Ospreys. When he's with Wales he seems like he's got weight on his shoulders, like there's some pressure on him. I've said for years I'd like to see Gareth Davies slot in, but he'll have to play his way in right now with Webb deservedly holding the shirt.

The Saint wrote:I notice Webb is coming in for some stick, does anyone believe he's being told to kick it all the time? He tends to play better for the Ospreys. When he's with Wales he seems like he's got weight on his shoulders, like there's some pressure on him. I've said for years I'd like to see Gareth Davies slot in, but he'll have to play his way in right now with Webb deservedly holding the shirt.

His service is slow as well at the moment, think we have to stick with him at the moment though.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

The Saint wrote:I notice Webb is coming in for some stick, does anyone believe he's being told to kick it all the time? He tends to play better for the Ospreys. When he's with Wales he seems like he's got weight on his shoulders, like there's some pressure on him. I've said for years I'd like to see Gareth Davies slot in, but he'll have to play his way in right now with Webb deservedly holding the shirt.

His service is slow as well at the moment, think we have to stick with him at the moment though.

Just begs the question, why is Phillips on the bench? Yes he used to be one of our best players but he should have been let go over a year ago.

So what are we expecting from the announcement later, not what we want him to do but what we expect him to do.

I expect Lee to come back in and I expect Li Williams to keep place at expense of Cuthbert with North coming back in.

That said it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Williams is dropped for North and we see the same starting side against England rolled out again.

WALES TEAM TO FACE FRANCE

Leigh Halfpenny (Toulon); George North (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Davies (ASM Clermont Auvergne), Jamie Roberts (Racing Metro), Liam Williams (Scarlets); Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Rhys Webb (Ospreys); Gethin Jenkins (Cardiff Blues), Scott Baldwin (Ospreys), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Luke Charteris (Racing Metro), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Ospreys), Sam Warburton (Cardiff Blues, capt), Taulupe Faletau (Newport Gwent Dragons).
Replacements: Richard Hibbard (Gloucester), Paul James (Bath), Aaron Jarvis (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Wasps), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys), Mike Phillips (Racing Metro), Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Scott Williams (Scarlets)

Well I must admit I am surprised but disappointed as well.

Didn't think he would drop Hibbard but not upset he has, glad he has gone with Charteris but think bit harsh on Ball to lose out altogether, disappointed but not shocked that he has yet again gone with Jenkins (bet he will get smashed at scrum again) and disappointed but not shocked that Cuthbert is dropped for St George when both have same weaknesses yet Cuthbert has better strike rate.

4 changes Bedford, looks like you posted that the same time I posted a match thread. I'm not as disappointed this week tbh.