Scottish Fans already on Cotter's back!!!

Was on Scottish Rugby facebook page on Saturday after that disgrace and did say that Vern Cotter NEEDS TIME to improve Scotland and the ammount of fellow fans who "blame Vern for loss" was unreal/ludicrous!

Imho, if he has a poor World Cup and 2016 6 Nations then MAYBE start questioning his position but tbh, giving coaches the sack after 2yrs is stupid!

So, IF anyone here is questioning Vern, I will ask you the same as I did on Facebook! Who will be next; Wayne Smith, Ewen McKenzie, Eddie Jones or Todd Blackadder??? All of these are no better than Vern in my humble opinion!!

I am as annoyed as every Scot just now but questioning head coaches future after 6 games is just RIDICILOUS!

Rant over!

Discuss.

of course this is absolute nonsense

if cotter leaves the next coach wont be any of the class of coaches above, more likely some second rate club manager out of a job

It is absolutely far too early for Vern Cotters tenure to be questioned and certainly not the right time to even consider changing him.

That said, I can (as a neutral) understand the frustration of the Scottish fans. For several years (including years before Vern Cotter) Scotland had been showing glimpse's in their play that they could play well but always seemed to fall short, snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. This also has not changed under Cotter so far.

Like Ireland under Kidney towards the end of his reign, Scotland have the team, seem to be coached well but often fall short. I believe more that its a psychological issue rather than a coaching issue.

I rarely look at the Scottish rugby facebook page, because the people who comment normally have no interest in rugby, with the exception of the 6 nations and generally make crazy comments.

That said, I think Vern should take a portion of the blame for the loss.  Yes the players let themselves down, but there were some questionable decisions from the coaching staff as well (uncertainty who was captain after Laidlaw left the pitch, waiting until there was only a couple of mins left before replacing players who were under performing etc).  I don’t think anyone should be getting away blame free.  I would also add that in no way do I think Vern’s job should be at risk nor am I calling for a new head coach, just that it probably wasn't his best performance as a coach and some of the blame will fall on his shoulders as well as the players.

I have full faith in Vern and believe he will leave the role in a better place than when he took over, but Saturday wasn't a great day for him (or the team).

Scottish Shaun wrote:Was on Scottish Rugby facebook page on Saturday after that disgrace and did say that Vern Cotter NEEDS TIME to improve Scotland and the ammount of fellow fans who "blame Vern for loss" was unreal/ludicrous!

Imho, if he has a poor World Cup and 2016 6 Nations then MAYBE start questioning his position but tbh, giving coaches the sack after 2yrs is stupid!

So, IF anyone here is questioning Vern, I will ask you the same as I did on Facebook! Who will be next; Wayne Smith, Ewen McKenzie, Eddie Jones or Todd Blackadder??? All of these are no better than Vern in my humble opinion!!

I am as annoyed as every Scot just now but questioning head coaches future after 6 games is just RIDICILOUS!

Rant over!

Discuss.

I've started to notice Scottish Rugby (inc Edinburgh and Glasgow) using Facebook less and less these days and more going on to twitter. The idea for businesses to use Facebook is to gain fans/customers by generating positive support. On signings or match results most comments are negative. People (a minority) are usually ill-informed; why is the player not selected, coach know's nothing!! answer - that'll be because he's injured. So can't blame them.

I rate Cotter and he should be given plenty of time and chances to make his mark (I'm talking RWC 2019). The coaches we have with Scotland, Edinburgh and Glasgow are as good a group as we've had in a very long time. There's bags of experience there in Cotter and Solomons, and some new ideas coming through with Toonie. It's a good group.

That all said, I do not agree that we should just put up and shut up, drink the Kool Aid, and agree with every single decision he makes. This forum has been built to generate debate and discussion around rugby matters, discuss selections and strategy, tactics and planning. Provided it's constructive and reasoned criticism, I'm all in favour.

My pet hate is the response along the lines of "well the coaches know more than we do, so let's just give them a break". I would be rather shocked if Cotter didn't know more about rugby than me, but I still see plenty room to discuss and debate the actions taken.

Still, calling his position into question at this stage is just daft.....

I think it is far too early for cotters head to role as he is only 10 games into his reign and the summer tour was very much a transition period where he didn't have full reign.
However I don't think he is blameless in this 6 nations campaign, a few choices in team selection have been v poor....strokosh, Blake to name a couple!

I feel the problem lies more with his assistants Jonathan Humphries and Massimo Cuttitta the forwards and scrum coach.
The forwards are a shadow of the what they were in recent years. Lacking in tactics, technique and physicality. Yes we are missing some key players in the pack but we still have good players and should not have been as poor as what we have been.
There seems to be no plan b in forwards tactics, against Italy they mauled us to death which was an expected tactic from Italy. Scotland should have been prepared for it with different tactics to counteract it but it seemed as if nothing had been prepared.
The scrums have been a problem for a while with us getting on the wrong side of the ref. Cuttitta has been scrum coach for a while now and the scrums do not seem to have improved during his time.

I think Cotter needs to be given free reign to choose his own coaches as I think Humphries, cuttitta and possibly even Hodge are not up to international level.

Majestic83 wrote:I think Cotter needs to be given free reign to choose his own coaches as I think Humphries, cuttitta and possibly even Hodge are not up to international level.

100% agree with this. He inherited a sub-standard group from SJ and should have been allowed to build his own team. Perhaps he'll be given this opportunity after the World Cup, I certainly hope so.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:I think Cotter needs to be given free reign to choose his own coaches as I think Humphries, cuttitta and possibly even Hodge are not up to international level.

100% agree with this. He inherited a sub-standard group from SJ and should have been allowed to build his own team. Perhaps he'll be given this opportunity after the World Cup, I certainly hope so.

Clark Laidlaw was announced as London Irish's new backs coach yesterday, he would have been ideal as Scotland's backs coach. Transformed the Hurricanes into one of the best attacking teams in super rugby this season and comes with lots of experience from New Zealand where he has learnt the trade after a good playing career in Scotland.
Plenty of good forwards coaches about that could replace the donkey that is jonathan Humphries. The ex Scotland prop Matt Proudfoot is doing a great job at the stormers!

If the scottish fans aren't happy we could swap him with Saint-André.

shuren34 wrote:If the scottish fans aren't happy we could swap him with Saint-André.

No thanks! He's making a proper mess of France - completely muddled selection process.

Majestic83 wrote:

I think Cotter needs to be given free reign to choose his own coaches as I think Humphries, cuttitta and possibly even Hodge are not up to international level.

???? Did a guy like Vern agree to come on-board without having his own chosen assistants? I didn't realise that. He's a fool if he did - the best part of the ball was in his court during those negotiations. But maybe he demanded he'd get the opportunity to change people and just hasn't gotten round to it yet.

Cuttitta has certainly been involved for a good couple years if not longer and Humphries was certainly in place before Cotter came on board. Hodge was kicking coach but got promoted to backs coach by cotter once he arrived.
The Scotland team are a little lightweight on coaches compared to the amount involved with the England national team, All Blacks, Australia.

Yesterday I questioned Verns competancy on a few items. Namely, why wasnt Laidlaw subbed at 50 mins when it was obvious that he was innefective. Why was no Plan B instigated. Why were the players unclear towards the end of the game who the captain was when Laidlaw had gone off. And why was Horne asked to kick the penalty when he hadnt had that resonsibility all day?
These are clearly management issues that lie squarely on his shoulders or his leadership team who should have been briefed on that eventuality by him. I never suggested it was time for his head on a plate, that's just football mentality.
However I do think it's valid to raise the questions regarding those basics, especially when the buffoonery of Scott Johnson is still vividly scarring on the memory. We should be able to question why raw basics are lacking. Yes he needs to be given time, 3 years at least. But I also think that the points above are basics that should have been in hand and not tripping us up.
I would like to think that VC, is more than a bit embarrassed that those basic errors have occurred.
I also stand by my feelings that the players need to have a good look at themselves too, as there were no shining lights really.
As for facebook, I've never been on it, as it appears to be cheep and shallow and too accessable. If you don't like what's on there, don't go there.

Pretty much agree on what's been said - far too early to be calling for is head, but he certainly still has to take some of the blame.

The biggest thing for me at the weekend, which hasn't been discussed so much, was what exactly was our game plan and tactics? In the AIs and against France and Wales you could see what we were trying to do, but I just couldn't see it against Italy and we seemed to be playing a game that suited them, not us.

Were his tactics at fault, or was it just the players' execution? I suspect it is a bit of both.

agreed RDW, there seemed to be no structure about the team on Saturday and we definitely played to Italy's style instead of playing to our own style and tactics which we did in the autumn.
We got sucked into their game plan and didn't have any other plan for how to play around that.

Maybe Vern is a genius and he is lulling everyone into thinking that we really are hopeless ahead of the world cup and then going to turn the style on and win it like Dodson's plan has been all along!

Playing Devil's advocate with Laidlaw here, it is easy with hindsight to criticise the decision to keep him on.

Worth remembering that we were leading the entire game up until the last play.  There technically was no need to go chasing the game - perhaps VC was hoping that we could work our way into their half and get some penalties to keep extending the lead - he maybe wanted Laidlaw on to kick the goals and not have to rely on rookie kickers.

Yes it was clear that Laidlaw was slowing everything down, but we were winning still and maybe he wanted to consolidate that before bringing the young guns on.

Just a thought - don't shoot me!

It's a fair point RD.
Said at half time I was so disappointed to be only a point up, meant the prospect of SHC coming on if the scores stayed close were very slim.
Although having said that was weird we didn't quite stick to that plan of kicking the goals. We won a penalty on the 10m line about 55 minute mark & laidlaw went for touch despite only being 4 ahead on the board.

Also wouldn't pay any heed to the Facebook posts, so one scottish user suggesting that being kicking out of the 6nations into a 2nd their tournament would do us good

I can't remember the exact incident, and I am not in a position to watch it back, but something went on at around 53 mins as I recall, and at that stage I though, yes, time to get Laidlaw off and SHC on to inject some pace and variety. There was just no urgency or structure.
As has been suggested above, Maybe VC has had a grim realisation that he needs to spell everything out.
Maybe he needs to adopt the approach of his mate Joe Schmidt and meticulously plan the structure and then allow the players their own freedom to decision make and operate within that structure?
It's also correct above that we seemed to be trying to fight fire with fire (albeit a cooler less aggressive version of it) rather than playing our own game.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Playing Devil's advocate with Laidlaw here, it is easy with hindsight to criticise the decision to keep him on.

Worth remembering that we were leading the entire game up until the last play.  There technically was no need to go chasing the game - perhaps VC was hoping that we could work our way into their half and get some penalties to keep extending the lead - he maybe wanted Laidlaw on to kick the goals and not have to rely on rookie kickers.

Yes it was clear that Laidlaw was slowing everything down, but we were winning still and maybe he wanted to consolidate that before bringing the young guns on.

Just a thought - don't shoot me!

I think you may well have arrived at Cotter's logic, but it comes back to Maj's point. For Scotland to be effective we need to play the game on our terms and to a style that suits us, which means being proactive rather than reactive from the bench. There are sides out there who can play the game every which way and still win, but we are not one of them.

Under Robinson we had a really solid pack but useless backs, to turgid games in poor conditions with endless picks and drives suited us well. We now have the reverse, a backline that wants quick ball in the wide channels, but a more traditional pack suited to a faster and less structured game. Laidlaw would have been a far better asset under Robinson than he is to Cotter. Annoyingly, what we really need is a 25 year old Mike Blair at 9.

Sorry I just posted a similar comment on the "Dear Vern" thread without having looked at this one first. Although VC is not entirely blameless for the defeats we've suffered, it's far far too early to call for him to be sacked. He has the makings of being the best coach we've had in years, and I'd give him at least another couple of years before I would start to question him.

Does his contract not expire after the WC? If so, it's difficult to see who exactly would replace him, but I guess Toonie will be a candidate. If he leaves and Toonie moves up to Scotland, I wouldn't mind seeing a Chris Paterson/Mike Blair (if retired) coaching team at Glasgow, as they strike me as being very clued up tactically and come across very well on TV/in their columns.

People have to realise (as everyone here does) that it will take at least a couple of years for our young squad to develop, in the same way as it did for England when Lancaster took over.

I personally don't see why the guy is rated so highly. He's achieved little. Before he began the autumn with Scotland I got told by a fan on here that he was a better coach than Gatland... That made me laugh, surely now is proof otherwise.

Saint.

A coach can only do so much with the players he has at his disposal.

I personally think that since he ( cotter) got involved with Scotland they have got better has a team.

I'm not too sure what VC's plan is if I'm being honest. He said in the interview his view wasn't being understood by the players, but was seemingly happy in the Autumn? Has he changed what style he wants to play?

It seems to me like he wants to take Glasgow's backs and just copy and paste them into the Scotland team. Not so much giving them 'a license to have a go' but just getting them doing what they should be doing given they are half-decent players. What coach would say don't take chances?

In the forwards, they just don't seem to be powerful enough or, crucially, intense enough. Look at the intensity of the breakdown before the Irish try by both teams. We'd just lose the ball here:



0:12

Seriously though, I think VC should take some criticism. Laidlaw never looks hurried to get to the ball, and is not in the form of the Autumn. After Laidlaw's performance vs Italy, in hindsight SHC should have started vs Italy. VC should have known that from training.