Tomas Francis, poached?

As far as I know Francis has a welsh parent, hence he qualifies for us. Just how Welsh is he? Unless someone can prove otherwise, I think he's been in England all his life and got his first taste of pro rugby with English teams Doncaster, London Scottish and now Exeter chiefs where he seems to be doing really well. Seeing as England invested in this guy, isn't this poaching? I'm not going to go on and complain too much as we have a TH crisis, so the big lad could be a good asset to us over the next few years. However not sure agree with all the eligibility criteria though, as nations will just keep nicking players from one another and eventually the lower nations will lose out. Exeter have done it again, they continue to start from the bottom up and produce good players and teams - they're a good blueprint for any team wanting to do well.

I believe its a Welsh grandparent not a parent. Always a tenuous avenue to qualification, but there's no evidence England want or need.

Fair enough, even more disputable then. True, I think England are concentrating on 3 players on each side (LH and TH) at the moment; but if Gatland actually believes this guy is capable of playing international rugby then I'm sure he would also be capable of making the England team one day as well. I don't think it's in the interest of fairness either, but like I said we have a TH crisis so I'll take it...

Genuinely the Rock of Exeter's season! Chiefs fans are very worried that he'll play for Wales and be poached by a region! gutted if that does happen! He's am scrummaging monster

I'd guess that most Wales fans are very hopeful of that happening! My money is on a dual contract with WRU children the Ospreys.

Has Welsh roots then he can play for Wales simple really. What I have read is pretty much what Tiger/Chief has said a monster in the scrum. Seems he has given the England set up notice of his skill set but has been ignored. Croeso i Cymru

Thing is England may need to poach him back. Their 2nd and 3rd choice tightheads in the squad are out, and all the other recently capped and Saxons ones havent been playing either.
As he hasnt been capped at any level by Wales yet theres nothing to stop England calling him up for the weekend.

Gooseberry wrote:Thing is England may need to poach him back. Their 2nd and 3rd choice tightheads in the squad are out, and all the other recently capped and Saxons ones havent been playing either.
As he hasnt been capped at any level by Wales yet theres nothing to stop England calling him up for  the weekend.

He's training with them so if he is picked nothing England can do about it. Seems as if he has made his decision and after all there is nothing between Wales and England since rugby began.

The only things I can think of that may make him decide for England (if they even got in touch) could be if he wants to stay in Exeter where he's settled, and that England can pay more for appearances ( I have no idea if that's true).

All just theoretical though.

Play him for Wales but leave him playing for Exeter, would be my suggestion. Everyone's happy!

He's quite a young guy still and having played for Doncaster, Scottish and now Exeter i wonder how settled he is. Clearly he is not affraid to move to progress his career. I'm never sure how to feel about these situations as i'm part of the group who feel you can have a strong connection to different countries. If he does play for Wales (i believe even if he just sits on the bench he is tied to us) then i can see him taking  dual contract and ending up at the O's. Interesting to know how Gats found out about him and his Welsh connection.

Griff wrote:Play him for Wales but leave him playing for Exeter, would be my suggestion.  Everyone's happy!

Exeter only happy if they can maintain the number of EQP players they need to get the RFU funding.

Every time I see the name of this thread I can't help thinking that there must be a truly enormous saucepan

He's a proud Yorkshire lad - if Donny hadn't been relegated, there's a good chance that he wouldn't have spread his wings and still be with them. He may have seen Wales in the distance from the M5, but I dunno if he's ever been there before this week.

He's certainly raw, but it's a nonsense to say that England have ignored him. Even if Stuey and co didn't watch all the Prem games and monitor the EQ players, Baxter would have been on the phone to them.

He's behind Cole, Wilson, Thomas, Brookes and S Wilson within the England setup (not necessarily in ability) but I'd have laid a decent amount of money on him being called up for the Saxons if he hadn't been injured at the time.

Never mind being poached from England he played for Scotland U20's last year! The SRU should have offered Tomas (maybe they did?) a place at Glasgow or Edinburgh when it became obvious he was good enough to play a level above the English Championship.
The Rev Murray is almost at the end of his career and the next batch of Scottish tight heads aren't exactly feared by the rest of the world.
Maybe its just the name: Tomaso Allan also jumped ship, in his case to Italy, now Tomas Francis leaps towards Wales!
Obviously no place for a doubting Tomas in Scotland's ranks!!!

sensisball wrote:Never mind being poached from England he played for Scotland U20's last year! The SRU should have offered Tomas (maybe they did?) a place at Glasgow or Edinburgh when it became obvious he was good enough to play a level above the English Championship.
The Rev Murray is almost at the end of his career and the next batch of Scottish tight heads aren't exactly feared by the rest of the world.
Maybe its just the name: Tomaso Allan also jumped ship, in his case to Italy, now Tomas Francis leaps towards Wales!
Obviously no place for a doubting Tomas in Scotland's ranks!!!

Wiki says he was born 27/4/92. He might have been a little on the old side for Scotland U20's last year

The Saint wrote:As far as I know Francis has a welsh parent, hence he qualifies for us. Just how Welsh is he? Unless someone can prove otherwise, I think he's been in England all his life and got his first taste of pro rugby with English teams Doncaster, London Scottish and now Exeter chiefs where he seems to be doing really well. Seeing as England invested in this guy, isn't this poaching? I'm not going to go on and complain too much as we have a TH crisis, so the big lad could be a good asset to us over the next few years. However not sure agree with all the eligibility criteria though, as nations will just keep nicking players from one another and eventually the lower nations will lose out. Exeter have done it again, they continue to start from the bottom up and produce good players and teams - they're a good blueprint for any team wanting to do well.

It works well for Scotland. Nobody steals our players because they are rubbish, and yet we have a whole department at the SRU headed by Sean Lineen dedicated to finding us talent to poach.

Just imagine how good England could have been with Budge Poutney, Eric Peters, Simon Danielli, Jim Hamilton, Tom Heathcote, David Hilton etc.

Poaching.  What does it mean?  Generally it means encroaching on land that doesn't belong to you to shoot game or to fish illegally.

The animal/fish doesn't generally have to much say in the matter  It's just killed, bagged and taken away.

But in these continuing discussions about player 'poaching' - the players themselves get off way too easily.

They're not being put in a bag, they're not being kidnapped, a gun is not being put to their heads to sign contracts or to make decisions against their own free will.

Too much blame is landed with the Union or the teams the player ferrets himself away to.  The player is the chooser who does the runner.  

Yet there is often a tendancy to paint the picture of a little innocent lad off on his way in the world to try to make things better for himself - and his little parcel on the end of a stick in a polka-dot handkerchief - meeting a big, bad, saliva toothed Wolf on the path ready to pounce on his youfff and inexperience.

Ahh - isn't it cute that the little lad isn't all he's made out to be, can fend for himself and is willing to hang his trap-door drawers on any bedpost willing to feed his ambitions.

SecretFly wrote:Yet there is often a tendancy to paint the picture of a little innocent lad off on his way in the world to try to make things better for himself - and his little parcel on the end of a stick in a polka-dot handkerchief - meeting a big, bad, saliva toothed Wolf on the path ready to pounce on his youfff and inexperience.

This is exactly how is works. In our case the parcel contains a collection of Wooden Spoons, with a note saying, "Young man, one day all this could be yours".

The rules are the rules, we may not like them or agree with them but until they are changed teams would be stupid not to use them if they can.

It is what it is to be honest. Tighthead is probably the hardest position to get depth in.
England have done really well as they have recently brought two young promising tight heads in with Brookes and Henry Thomas.
I mean Brookes was in the Irish acadamy for years and England saw he had great potential and qualified for them so get they got him in their set up asap. I don't think that's poaching, i just think it's a good move on their behalf. Now England have really good depth at tighthead and Ireland lost a gem of a player.
We done the same with Jarvis when he was a good scrummager but the change in laws has altered his game.
Francis meets the criteria and he wouldn't be training for wales if he didn't want to play for us. He has the chance and i really hope he takes it becuase we have no one apart from Lee who is up to the job.

Get him on the bench for the Italy game and cap him.

Jhamer25 wrote:I mean Brookes was in the Irish acadamy for years and England saw he had great potential and qualified for them so get they got him in their set up asap.

Brookes represented Ireland at age group qualifying via a parent - but was never in any Irish academy. He was born and bred in England. Went to school in Lancashire and was in Falcons Academy.

Jhamer25 wrote: Now England have really good depth at tighthead and Ireland lost a gem of a player.

But we didn't lose him as if his 'heart' was on trying to play for Ireland, he'd have said no to the England approach.  He said yes, because he's comfortable playing for the country of his birth.
No side loses anyone - players have their own minds and use them to achieve whatever ends they personally want to achieve.

I'd like to hear some stories about players who turned down offers from certain Nations because they felt too emotionally connected to their Nation of choice, and were prepared to pay the price of never playing International at all rather than to go against that internal personal principle.  We seldom hear any of those stories.

sensisball wrote:Never mind being poached from England he played for Scotland U20's last year! The SRU should have offered Tomas (maybe they did?) a place at Glasgow or Edinburgh when it became obvious he was good enough to play a level above the English Championship.
The Rev Murray is almost at the end of his career and the next batch of Scottish tight heads aren't exactly feared by the rest of the world.
Maybe its just the name: Tomaso Allan also jumped ship, in his case to Italy, now Tomas Francis leaps towards Wales!
Obviously no place for a doubting Tomas in Scotland's ranks!!!

Tomas Francis has never played for Scotland at any age grade level. He has no Scottish background and doesn't qualify.
When he was at London Scottish Edinburgh looked at him but he chose Exeter instead.

Francis has only become an issue because there is a massive injury crisis in Englands tightheads behind Cole. He hasnt ever been close to the England set up until they find themselves mid tournament missing 8 or 9 candidates.
Against that background its not surprising hes elected to take up the opportunity to train with Wales, and that England didnt bat an eyelid when it happened. Its only after this weeks games that suddenly his names getting chucked in the mix and anyones even noticed hes with Wales...although not tied to them.
There is nothing to stop Lancaster offering him a cap (other than him having a preferred option available), then we would know which way his head and heart lie.

Its not a million miles form what happened with fat morgan who noone thought would get a sniff of an england shirt, till he did.

Brookes fit to go on the bench apparently so crisis over....

Until this season Francis had only played in the Championship. at the start of the season he would have been behind:

Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas - all capped by England.
Wilson Jr, Sinckler, Collier, Balmain - all featured for Saxons or England v Barbarians.


However he has now played and contributed in the premiership. Still, for now, likely to be behind most of those names as Bomber is overly loyal. Up to him what he does if offered the choice. We have seen with players like Heathcote that taking the cap on offer may not always be the most sensible option.

SecretFly wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote: Now England have really good depth at tighthead and Ireland lost a gem of a player.

But we didn't lose him as if his 'heart' was on trying to play for Ireland, he'd have said no to the England approach.  He said yes, because he's comfortable playing for the country of his birth.
No side loses anyone - players have their own minds and use them to achieve whatever ends they personally want to achieve.

I'd like to hear some stories about players who turned down offers from certain Nations because they felt too emotionally connected to their Nation of choice, and were prepared to pay the price of never playing International at all rather than to go against that internal personal principle.  We seldom hear any of those stories.

Dallaglio turned down both Ireland and Italy. Not sure how sure he was of an England cap at the time.

My apologies for mistakenly identifying Tomas as Scottish qualified. I think I must have assumed it when he was playing for London Scottish in the hope that we would have a great future Scottish prop!

HammerofThunor wrote:

Dallaglio turned down both Ireland and Italy. Not sure how sure he was of an England cap at the time.

99.9999999% I think was the official figure

SecretFly wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote: Now England have really good depth at tighthead and Ireland lost a gem of a player.

But we didn't lose him as if his 'heart' was on trying to play for Ireland, he'd have said no to the England approach.  He said yes, because he's comfortable playing for the country of his birth.
No side loses anyone - players have their own minds and use them to achieve whatever ends they personally want to achieve.

I'd like to hear some stories about players who turned down offers from certain Nations because they felt too emotionally connected to their Nation of choice, and were prepared to pay the price of never playing International at all rather than to go against that internal personal principle.  We seldom hear any of those stories.

London Tiger, Sorry i shouldn't have said Irish academies wrong wording i was trying to refer to Ireland's age groups e.g.U18's/19's/20's.

Therefore i do see that as a big big loss for the Irish because even though he did live in England he was still very much a part of the Irish set up. So he was going down one road to Ireland but England gave him a short cut by capping him early for them.
My point was being he just wanted to play senior international rugby and England beat Ireland to it. I mean he would be playing for Ireland now if their U20's were their second choice team (like Wales U20's). My point is being that at the end of the day, if a player has a welsh mother, Irish father and Scottish parent they would choose the first nation who gave them a chance at international honors. Steve Shingler is probably a better example to use than Brookes, even though he was capped to Wales the Scottish team offered him the chance of international rugby first and he jumped ships. Was I angry at him? no, Do I blame him? no it's all about the opportunities at the end of the day.

LondonTiger wrote:Until this season Francis had only played in the Championship. at the start of the season he would have been behind:

Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas - all capped by England.
Wilson Jr, Sinckler, Collier, Balmain - all featured for Saxons or England v Barbarians.


However he has now played and contributed in the premiership. Still, for now, likely to be behind most of those names as Bomber is overly loyal. Up to him what he does if offered the choice. We have seen with players like Heathcote that taking the cap on offer may not always be the most sensible option.

The issue is all except Cole and Balmain ( didnt remember he had been called up at all) arent playing at the minute for one reason or another.
So basically it looks like Tigers are going to get royally screwed unless someone gets well quickly.

Gooseberry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Until this season Francis had only played in the Championship. at the start of the season he would have been behind:

Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas - all capped by England.
Wilson Jr, Sinckler, Collier, Balmain - all featured for Saxons or England v Barbarians.


However he has now played and contributed in the premiership. Still, for now, likely to be behind most of those names as Bomber is overly loyal. Up to him what he does if offered the choice. We have seen with players like Heathcote that taking the cap on offer may not always be the most sensible option.

The issue is all except Cole and Balmain ( didnt  remember he had been called up at all) arent playing at the minute for one reason or another.
So basically it looks like Tigers are going to get royally screwed unless someone gets well quickly.

As already mentioned Brookes is fit for the weekend

lostinwales wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Until this season Francis had only played in the Championship. at the start of the season he would have been behind:

Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas - all capped by England.
Wilson Jr, Sinckler, Collier, Balmain - all featured for Saxons or England v Barbarians.


However he has now played and contributed in the premiership. Still, for now, likely to be behind most of those names as Bomber is overly loyal. Up to him what he does if offered the choice. We have seen with players like Heathcote that taking the cap on offer may not always be the most sensible option.

The issue is all except Cole and Balmain ( didnt  remember he had been called up at all) arent playing at the minute for one reason or another.
So basically it looks like Tigers are going to get royally screwed unless someone gets well quickly.

As already mentioned Brookes is fit for the weekend

Good timing from him then! England have a bit more depth than many other countries there

The Saint wrote: However not sure agree with all the eligibility criteria though, as nations will just keep nicking players from one another and eventually the lower nations will lose out.

If anything its the "lower nations" (as in this case) that stand to benefit form the system as is. Countries with big resources and a large player base (eg England) put through a large number of professional players in centrally funded academies and age grade sides. On top of this theres a number of guys like Francis who develop form the sides. Not all of them will make Saxon or Senior squads and get tied down, many will be available for the likes of Wales and Scotland to continue to pick up and offer a chance to.

Jhamer25 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote: Now England have really good depth at tighthead and Ireland lost a gem of a player.

But we didn't lose him as if his 'heart' was on trying to play for Ireland, he'd have said no to the England approach.  He said yes, because he's comfortable playing for the country of his birth.
No side loses anyone - players have their own minds and use them to achieve whatever ends they personally want to achieve.

I'd like to hear some stories about players who turned down offers from certain Nations because they felt too emotionally connected to their Nation of choice, and were prepared to pay the price of never playing International at all rather than to go against that internal personal principle.  We seldom hear any of those stories.

London Tiger, Sorry i shouldn't have said Irish academies wrong wording i was trying to refer to Ireland's age groups e.g.U18's/19's/20's.

Therefore i do see that as a big big loss for the Irish because even though he did live in England he was still very much a part of the Irish set up. So he was going down one road to Ireland but England gave him a short cut by capping him early for them.
My point was being he just wanted to play senior international rugby and England beat Ireland to it. I mean he would be playing for Ireland now if their U20's were their second choice team (like Wales U20's). My point is being that at the end of the day, if a player has a welsh mother, Irish father and Scottish parent they would choose the first nation who gave them a chance at international honors. Steve Shingler is probably a better example to use than Brookes, even though he was capped to Wales the Scottish team offered him the chance of international rugby first and he jumped ships. Was I angry at him? no, Do I blame him? no it's all about the opportunities at the end of the day.

Big assumption there. You're assuming he would have played for Ireland U20 if it meant never playing for England? Didn't he only play for Ireland because England hadn't come sniffing and as soon as they showed an interest (as in U20) he jumped at the chance.

Just checked back, and indeed Brookes was in the England U20 squad.

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/main/s245/st148583.htm


(ps you coudl make a decent side side out of that squad)

Francis seems a pretty similar story to Jarvis, English born and played all his rugby here but with a Welsh grandparent. I don't have a problem with someone wanting to further their career, in Jarvis' case, he was a 3rd choice prop at Bath and about as far away from an England call up as I am, so its hard to blame him for taking that chance.

Of course the different is that Francis seems a bit better...!

Well I do not know how much truth is in this, but a certain head coach from one of the Welsh regions has been spending a lot of time with Tomas Francis whilst he has been training with the Welsh squad.

Gooseberry wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Until this season Francis had only played in the Championship. at the start of the season he would have been behind:

Cole, Wilson, Brookes, Thomas - all capped by England.
Wilson Jr, Sinckler, Collier, Balmain - all featured for Saxons or England v Barbarians.


However he has now played and contributed in the premiership. Still, for now, likely to be behind most of those names as Bomber is overly loyal. Up to him what he does if offered the choice. We have seen with players like Heathcote that taking the cap on offer may not always be the most sensible option.

The issue is all except Cole and Balmain ( didnt  remember he had been called up at all) arent playing at the minute for one reason or another.
So basically it looks like Tigers are going to get royally screwed unless someone gets well quickly.

As already mentioned Brookes is fit for the weekend

Good timing from him then! England have a bit more depth than many other countries there

The Saint wrote: However not sure agree with all the eligibility criteria though, as nations will just keep nicking players from one another and eventually the lower nations will lose out.  

If anything its the "lower nations" (as in this case) that stand to benefit form the system as is. Countries with big resources and a large player base (eg England) put through a large number of professional players in centrally funded academies and age grade sides. On top of this theres a number of guys like Francis who develop form the sides. Not all of them will make Saxon or Senior squads and get tied down, many will be available for the likes of Wales and Scotland to continue to pick up and offer a chance to.

Who would that be then? You really think we are lower that you? What after a 5 point win? I'd look at the history between both nations before spouting too much lad. These people are available because they have Welsh roots and considering the entire island used to be Wales that's hardly odd is it goosegog.

LordDowlais wrote:Well I do not know how much truth is in this, but a certain head coach from one of the Welsh regions has been spending a lot of time with Tomas Francis whilst he has been training with the Welsh squad.

Lord, I'd already put it on the Club board, on the Ospreys topic, if and it is a BIG IF, he does join us, it really will be a big step in the right direction, him and Dmitri as our front line tightheads, Nicky Smith and Paul James looseheads and Brendon Leonard scrum half coming in, things are looking really good for next year, cover for Evans at full back and somebody to cover centre would really improve our options for next season IMO, ymlaen Gweilch.

wayne wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well I do not know how much truth is in this, but a certain head coach from one of the Welsh regions has been spending a lot of time with Tomas Francis whilst he has been training with the Welsh squad.

Lord, I'd already put it on the Club board, on the Ospreys topic, if and it is a BIG IF, he does join us, it really will be a big step in the right direction, him and Dmitri as our front line tightheads, Nicky Smith and Paul James looseheads and Brendon Leonard scrum half coming in, things are looking really good for next year, cover for Evans at full back and somebody to cover centre would really improve our options for next season IMO, ymlaen Gweilch.

Ah, I should have known that you would be all over this one wayne, you seem to be realy in the know when it comes to the Ospreys, a certain second rower who used to play for Neath during the 90's told me about Tandy being with the Welsh squad and talking to him about this yesterday afternoon, what do you think the chances of him comming to the Ospreys are ? If he comes he would be 1st choice infront of Arhip for my liking.

LordDowlais wrote:

wayne wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well I do not know how much truth is in this, but a certain head coach from one of the Welsh regions has been spending a lot of time with Tomas Francis whilst he has been training with the Welsh squad.

Lord, I'd already put it on the Club board, on the Ospreys topic, if and it is a BIG IF, he does join us, it really will be a big step in the right direction, him and Dmitri as our front line tightheads, Nicky Smith and Paul James looseheads and Brendon Leonard scrum half coming in, things are looking really good for next year, cover for Evans at full back and somebody to cover centre would really improve our options for next season IMO, ymlaen Gweilch.

Ah, I should have known that you would be all over this one wayne, you seem to be realy in the know when it comes to the Ospreys, a certain second rower who used to play for Neath during the 90's told me about Tandy being with the Welsh squad and talking to him about this yesterday afternoon, what do you think the chances of him comming to the Ospreys are ? If he comes he would be 1st choice infront of Arhip for my liking.

Dmitri IMO has done a fantastic job this year, he had to be played too often and for too long, we have a record of giving sitting players and newcomers equal game time at the beginning of a season, IIRC Webb and Fotualii fought for the scrum half job when Fotualii first came to us, by the time of the second season, because of some Webb howlers, Fotualii was number 1, yet since he's left Rhys has come on leaps and bounds, the battle has done him the power of good, the thing was picked up by somebody on our forum with an eagle eye (not me) in a list of photographs from the Welsh Training session yesterday by the Huw Evans Photographic Agency and it all developed from there, Tandy did say in a recent press conference he knows about our scrummaging problems and they were always looking for new players, so with yesterdays evidence 2+2 = 4, but knowing our luck it'll be 5.