The Scottish 6N Wooden Spoon Thread

by Scottish White Line Fever Sat Mar 14, 2015 6:48 pm

After another defeat today, I'm struggling to see many positives emerge from this Six Nations now.

The defence was woeful once again this evening - it's unacceptable for a team to tackle like that at this level. England thoroughly deserved their win. I don't fancy us to beat Ireland so realistically that leaves us picking up yet another Wooden Spoon.

Other than Hogg's performances this 6N, there hasn't been much else to take from this year's tournament. Part of the issue I feel is that not many of our squad have experience of winning tournaments and so haven't experienced winning in "big" matches. Hopefully Glasgow can get over the line in the Pro12 this year, because it could help develop a "winning culture" and get many of our key players used to winning tight matches. It wouldn't necessarily have made a big difference to the England match, but it might have given us the edge in the Italy match or even the France and Wales matches.

For the Ireland match, I think we need to shake things up and give more game time to the likes of SHC, Toolis and Watson. We literally have nothing to lose because we could already have the Wooden Spoon by then, depending on how Italy get on tomorrow. I would also like to see Fraser Brown start because we need to prepare for him starting against SA or Samoa if Ford is injured.

I would add though that we haven't had the rub of the green this tournament - the rebounding penalties, Cole not getting a yellow and the break of the ball at times has not favoured us.

Discuss....

by TJ Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:17 pm

A few more positioves - Russell really looks the part - remember this is still his first full pro season is it not. Our first choice centres match most - but depth is not there. Fife looks a decent second choice winger. Pack OK - but needs an harder edge. mMaul defense much better today

Overall tho - a poor tournament. 3 games we could have and perhaps should have won we managed to lose.

by The Saint Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:29 pm

I'm backing you guys to do one on Ireland. But even if you do I don't think there is that many positives to take from this. The team looked better drilled back in the autumn.

by **RDW** Sat Mar 14, 2015 7:59 pm

Hogg has been by some distance our player of the tournament

Denton was good - he made more ground in 50 minutes than Beattie did in 3 games.

Tonks to me looks comfortable at international level - we've not seen him at 10 yet really, but he looks to have the temperament for it.

Bennett also looks right at home at this level.

Fife on the other hand is not. He missed at least 3 tackles on Nowell (one of the smallest guys on the pitch) and that's completely unacceptable.

As much as it pains me to say it, Matt Scott was a big reason for our midfield defence being awful. What happened to the Matt Scott that was knocking on the door of lions selection 2 years ago?

Laidlaw surely needs to be dropped - he was so flat with no zip about him at all.

Gray has been very quiet all tournament - we really can't forget he's only 21 (today!)

As has Harley - what has happened to these players?

by luvtotup Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:06 pm

We could have lost that by a cricket score if England had taken their chances. We need all our guys fit otherwise we are in trouble- our depth is woeful. There are some good young forwards coming through plus project players like Strauss etc but where are the backs? Dunbar was a huge loss .

by Scottish White Line Fever Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:16 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Hogg has been by some distance our player of the tournament

Denton was good - he made more ground in 50 minutes than Beattie did in 3 games.

Tonks to me looks comfortable at international level - we've not seen him at 10 yet really, but he looks to have the temperament for it.

Bennett also looks right at home at this level.

Fife on the other hand is not. He missed at least 3 tackles on Nowell (one of the smallest guys on the pitch) and that's completely unacceptable.

As much as it pains me to say it, Matt Scott was a big reason for our midfield defence being awful. What happened to the Matt Scott that was knocking on the door of lions selection 2 years ago?

Laidlaw surely needs to be dropped - he was so flat with no zip about him at all.

Gray has been very quiet all tournament - we really can't forget he's only 21 (today!)

As has Harley - what has happened to these players?

Agreed re Hogg and Bennett - our best two players today, along with Denton who was a massive improvement on Beattie. It's difficult to judge Tonks because he hasn't had enough game time - he's worth persisting with, but where does he fit in for the WC? If Weir and Jackson are fit, I'd probably pick Jackson as back-up 10 with Tonks to cover both 10 and 15. Cowan had a very solid game again today (I don't see him as being in the same class as Rennie at his peak but that can't be helped).

Matt Scott had a poor 40 minutes today - I think he's stalled due to injuries and Solomons' persistence at playing him at 13. He flew out the line more than once today, which is what he does at 13 not 12! I think Gray's been okay - he's not a flashy lock, but he does get through quite a lot of work, prior to this weekend he had made our most tackles I think. Harley has been very quiet as well - has to work on his ball carrying and link-up work before the WC.

Ford has been pedestrian at times - have we seen him break the gain line at any time this 6N? Dynamism is becoming a pre-requisite for modern-day hookers and Ford lacks it. I would retain him through the WC but would then look in the direction of Brown/Bryce/McInally.

Laidlaw needs to be told to move the ball sharper or be dropped for SHC/Cusiter/Pyrgos. Realistically, however, that won't happen and he's a shoe-in for the WC.

by majesticimperialman Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:18 pm

I know Scotland are looking like good wooden spoon contenders, but they cannot be seen as a bad side IMO they have played well. it is just that other teams have played better/ or been that little bit more lucky (Italy penalty try) at the last minute of the game.

by englandglory4ever Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:25 pm

Nz would have put a cricket score on that Scotland team. They aren't very good.

by Scottish Shaun Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:46 pm

I am beginning to lose faith/patience with Vern Cotter.

Am I the only one and if not then, who should we replace him with?

I say either Bryan Redpath or Wayne Snith or possibly Nick Mallett and a complete change in other coaches but god knows who with?

Discuss?

by lostinwales Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:48 pm

But what did you expect from this match? Scotland showed they had a lot more under the kilt than last year, but were always going to be up against it this game. The score was a good deal closer than it could have been

by TJ Sat Mar 14, 2015 8:49 pm

Scottish Shaun wrote:I am beginning to lose faith/patience with Vern Cotter.

Am I the only one and if not then, who should we replace him with?

I say either Bryan Redpath or Wayne Snith or possibly Nick Mallett and a complete change in other coaches but god knows who with?

Discuss?

Gies a break. Vern is still newish in post. He has got the team playing heads up rugby and looking dangerous at times and a huge improvement on previous coaches. Its not like there are loads of quality coaches begging to coach us - he should stay for a while and get really integrated into the setup - he won't be off after the WC to anotehr international post.

by tigertattie Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:00 pm

TJ wrote:A few more positioves - Russell really looks the part - remember this is still his first full pro season is it not. Our first choice centres match most - but depth is not there. Fife looks a decent second choice winger. Pack OK - but needs an harder edge. mMaul defense much better today

Overall tho - a poor tournament. 3 games we could have and perhaps should have won we managed to lose.

Jeez TJ, what game were you watching??? Russell was like a dazzled rabbit in the headlights!

by TJ Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:02 pm

tigertattie wrote:
TJ wrote:A few more positioves - Russell really looks the part - remember this is still his first full pro season is it not. Our first choice centres match most - but depth is not there. Fife looks a decent second choice winger. Pack OK - but needs an harder edge. mMaul defense much better today

Overall tho - a poor tournament. 3 games we could have and perhaps should have won we managed to lose.

Jeez TJ, what game were you watching??? Russell was like a dazzled rabbit in the headlights!

He also gave some great passes and was very solid defensivly. Not a bad game from him at all. ONe real clanger tho

by Scottish White Line Fever Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:06 pm

TJ wrote:
Scottish Shaun wrote:I am beginning to lose faith/patience with Vern Cotter.

Am I the only one and if not then, who should we replace him with?

I say either Bryan Redpath or Wayne Snith or possibly Nick Mallett and a complete change in other coaches but god knows who with?

Discuss?

Gies a break. Vern is still newish in post. He has got the team playing heads up rugby and looking dangerous at times and a huge improvement on previous coaches. Its not like there are loads of quality coaches begging to coach us - he should stay for a while and get really integrated into the setup - he won't be off after the WC to anotehr international post.

Absolutely don't get rid of VC - he's our best coach in years. The issue is that he took the post 12 months too late, we just wasted 12 months of possible development time under SJ and it's left VC with comparatively little time to create and impose a suitable plan for our players to adhere to. With the players we have at our disposal, and their current levels of experience, this WC is coming 12 months too early. If the WC were in September 16, we would be in a far stronger position - an extra 18 months to get Bennett, Russell, J.Gray etc further game time and a full year for Strauss and Nel to get up to speed at international level. But this is the situation we're in and it can't be helped.

by R!skysports Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:18 pm

TJ wrote:
tigertattie wrote:
TJ wrote:A few more positioves - Russell really looks the part - remember this is still his first full pro season is it not. Our first choice centres match most - but depth is not there. Fife looks a decent second choice winger. Pack OK - but needs an harder edge. mMaul defense much better today

Overall tho - a poor tournament. 3 games we could have and perhaps should have won we managed to lose.

Jeez TJ, what game were you watching??? Russell was like a dazzled rabbit in the headlights!

He also gave some great passes and was very solid defensivly. Not a bad game from him at all. ONe real clanger tho

Russel was very poor again. Totally out of his depth and looks panicked. He is new and should continue to get experience but to say he was well is stretching it.

by majesticimperialman Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:24 pm

I think that Scotland are improving with every game they play.

NO, i do not think that Scotland should get rid of Vern Cotter. It is because of him Scotland are playing the way they are.

by Calder106 Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:38 pm

The disappointing thing is that Scotland only seem to be competitive in an attacking sense for the first half of games. Against France and England no points scored in the second half, against Italy 3 points, Wales was better with 13 points ( I think) but even that included a last minute try. In the France and England matches we barely crossed half way in the second half and against Italy we were definitely second best after the break. Don't know why this is. Do the other teams adjust better at half time ?

by Majestic83 Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:55 pm

Scottish Shaun wrote:I am beginning to lose faith/patience with Vern Cotter.

Am I the only one and if not then, who should we replace him with?

I say either Bryan Redpath or Wayne Snith or possibly Nick Mallett and a complete change in other coaches but god knows who with?

Discuss?

Seriously? Cotter hasn't even been in the job for a year. Give the guy some time, swapping coaches all the time is not the way to go. Let him build up his team and see what happens like he did at clermont. Suggesting Bryan redpath would be a very poor decision. Not the best of records as a head coach.
Where the problem lies with Scotland's coaches are the assistant coaches. Mainly jonathan humphries, massimo cuttita and Duncan hodge. I don't think any of those 3 are up to it and are of good enough quality. Since humphries took over as forwards coach the pack have not performed as well. The scrum has been an issue and doesn't seem to be improving with cuttita who has been scrum coach for 3 to 4 years now. Hodge is newish as backs coach but doesn't have much experience.
The best option for backs/attack coach would have been Clark Laidlaw who is currently the Hurricanes backs coach and doing a great job. Signed for London Irish for next season so was available!

by Scottish Shaun Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:00 pm

Ok, then change other coaches then and let Vern get his own people in place.

I am not calling for Cotter's head YET but am losing faith after every week.

I am sick of all this expectation yet nothing happens during these competitions! I mean, Glasgow are top so something is seriously wrong, what is it!? And don't say refereeing decisions because that excuse won't wash with me!

by Majestic83 Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:07 pm

I think one of the biggest problems with the scotland team is a psychological issue. they could do with investing in a very good won as I think if they get some belief into some of those players we will see a huge difference.

by Scottish White Line Fever Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:14 pm

Majestic83 wrote:I think one of the biggest problems with the scotland team is a psychological issue. they could do with investing in a very good won as I think if they get some belief into some of those players we will see a huge difference.

For me the biggest boost for these players would be Glasgow winning the Pro12 (and Edinburgh winning the Challenge Cup) because, at present looking through our squad, there aren't many players (maybe just Maitland?) who have actually won a major title, whether that's the Pro12, AP, the European Cups or Super Rugby. As such, they aren't used to winning "big" matches when the pressure is really on or when it is tight going into the last ten minutes. They're not a "championship" team if that makes sense? There's perhaps an inferiority complex when they come up against multiple 6N winners in the Welsh or Irish players, and the same with England and France. Obviously, that's no excuse for Italy, but if they had this experience of closing out a championship or cup final then they would have the experience, like taking your time in kicking a penalty in the last few minutes to touch and not being greedy with your yardage.

by Scottish Shaun Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:15 pm

If they can't get up for a huge derby then they shouldn't be playing!

by Scottish White Line Fever Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:17 pm

I'm not saying they're not getting "up for a huge derby" - as Maj said, it's a lack of belief and self-doubt. Basically, I fear our players don't think they're good enough because they haven't won multiple Heineken Cups or Six Nations' or Pro12s etc which their opposition may have done. If these guys start winning titles at domestic level, then that winning culture will hopefully cross into the Scotland squad.

by Majestic83 Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:18 pm

Scottish Shaun wrote:If they can't get up for a huge derby then they shouldn't be playing!

Rubbish!

I'm sure the players were up for it but there is far more that effects a players performance than just being 'up for it'

by Majestic83 Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:19 pm

Scottish White Line Fever wrote:I'm not saying they're not getting "up for a huge derby" - as Maj said, it's a lack of belief and self-doubt. Basically, I fear our players don't think they're good enough because they haven't won multiple Heineken Cups or Six Nations' or Pro12s etc which their opposition may have done. If these guys start winning titles at domestic level, then that winning culture will hopefully cross into the Scotland squad.

by TJ Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:51 pm

I think there is a psychological issue here. Some of these players - the experienced ones know nothing but losing in a Scotland shirt. Today the heads did not go down which is better than the past but we have lost 3 games we were in a position to win. thats choking

I think the real issue is leadership. For me Kellybrows is the answer

by GLove39 Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:57 pm

Speaking of back room staff, would someone at the SRU please get on a plane to South Africa & grovel at Richie Gray's feet. Beg, bribe etc anything to get him back to sort out our rucking.

by Majestic83 Sat Mar 14, 2015 11:59 pm

GLove39 wrote:Speaking of back room staff, would someone at the SRU please get on a plane to South Africa & grovel at Richie Gray's feet. Beg, bribe etc anything to get him back to sort out our rucking.

Agreed, his contract is up after the World Cup so needs to be a priority to get him involved with scotland and the pro teams.

by TJ Sun Mar 15, 2015 12:07 am

Riskysports wrote:

Russel was very poor again. Totally out of his depth and looks panicked. He is new and should continue to get experience but to say he was well is stretching it.

Really - Russell was not very poor. he looked exactly what he is - a very talented but inexperienced player - he has under 20 pro team starts does he not. Give him a break. He did not flap and panic and shovel on Poopie. he stood up to the gain line, and moved the ball on as appropriate. he made his tackles. He is right at the beggining of his career and he is potentially the best 10 I have seen in a Scotland shirt since Rutherford. Remember Toonie as a ten? at least one brainfart a game. Russell will mature and get better - he is not the finished article but he is a very good player indeed

by **LondonTiger** Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:19 am

A lot depends on the criteria you set. Compared to what you should expect from an international player, Russell did not have a good game at all. If you choose to take into account his inexperience he did OK. It could be noted that he has started more tests than his opposite number.

by bsando Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:45 am

Scotland's 6N 1st half points

8 10 16 13

48

Scotland's 6N 2nd half points

0 13 3 0

16

Says a lot in my opinion, we are letting other teams dictate games in the final 40 and seem to love defending. Need to keep possession longer in the right areas of the paddock.

by Scottish White Line Fever Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:52 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/31891844 I'm slightly concerned that VC is saying we defended well. I hope he's just saying this to the press, but is hammering the players in the dressing room. I think part of the issue was that we tried to target Ford and put him under pressure (basically the same as England did to Russell) by trying to get outside him and preventing him passing it wide, but it obviously backfired and perhaps England had anticipated it.

Regarding Russell, I think he did some good things, kicked okay when he had to and tackled well. BUT, on the whole, the negatives outweighed the positives - his passing was a mixed bag and Lawes gave him a torrid time all afternoon. I think he's just going through a slight dip in form (his first since breaking into the Glasgow team really), so we will learn more from how he pulls through the next 6-12 months than how he's gone in the past 12 months. He's still young and learning his trade - definitely remains our first choice and our best prospect at 10 for many years. He's had a tough couple of games, but hopefully he bounces back next week against Ireland.

Agreed about trying to get Richie Gray back to deal with the breakdown - I don't really see what Humphries has brought to be honest. Our forwards were at their best under Andy Robinson, but we just didn't have a good set of backs at that time.

by Scottish White Line Fever Sun Mar 15, 2015 10:54 am

bsando wrote: Scotland's 6N 1st half points

8 10 16 13

48

Scotland's 6N 2nd half points

0 13 3 0

16

Says a lot in my opinion, we are letting other teams dictate games in the final 40 and seem to love defending. Need to keep possession longer in the right areas of the paddock.

We're also leaving a lot of points out there in the first half - we missed try opportunities just before half time against England (Cole's penalty didn't help), Wales (battered their line for 5 minutes and came away with nothing) and France (I think we had a couple of chances just before half-time but I can't be certain).

by **George Carlin** Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:01 am

LondonTiger wrote:A lot depends on the criteria you set. Compared to what you should expect from an international player, Russell did not have a good game at all. If you choose to take into account his inexperience he did OK. It could be noted that he has started more tests than his opposite number.

Only if you really believe it is necessary to put the boot in still further. picard

I actually don't think that's even correct, but if we insist on comparing the two players - then let's do it holistically:

Ford                             Russell

87   Professional Games     27

27     Age Grade Caps         5

10   Full international caps   8

Ford was playing professionally at age 16 and started with the Tigers fully 3 years before Russell started with his pro club.

In what possible respect could inexperience be discounted when deciding how well someone played?

by rainbow-warrior Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:10 am

I feel your pain Scotland, after all Wales were the same not that long ago.

Scotland are entertaining to watch and I am sure with some positive coaching you will turn the corner. I know Ireland and Wales were gunning for you .. but that's an annual thing.

You'll get there.

by Tattie Scones RRN Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:16 pm

Our best passages of play where we have usually scored are when we ruck quickly, offload around the fringes and support the ball carrier. We did it yesterday after we finally woke up in the firt half and had england on the ropes with a try and a penalty after Cole was caught being a cheating bar steward.

So why oh why did we go back to the sheeite kick chase game that we are so poor at???

Whoever kicks an up and under next week should be taken out by a sniper in row z. We cannot do that against the Irish.

by **BigGee** Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:40 pm

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Our best passages of play where we have usually scored are when we ruck quickly, offload around the fringes and support the ball carrier. We did it yesterday after we finally woke up in the firt half and had england on the ropes with a try and a penalty after Cole was caught being a cheating bar steward.

So why oh why did we go back to the sheeite kick chase game that we are so poor at???

Whoever kicks an up and under next week should be taken out by a sniper in row z. We cannot do that against the Irish.

We went back to the kicking game as we were getting squeezed in the second half and could not get out of our own half. You can't play chuck about from your own half against good sides like England, one mistake and you are dead. The problem was not that we are playing a kicking game, just that we are not doing it very well. Laidlaw takes on far to much of this on himself maybe because Russell has still got to learn a lot about managing a game. He is getting the experience the hard way though and hopefully he will learn.

by englandglory4ever Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:44 pm

Scotland kicked because they saw the Irish beat England with their kick chase game. If they can do it then why can't we sort of attitude. The coach got it wrong because their kickers are not in the same league as Ireland's.

by **George Carlin** Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:58 pm

It's not that kick chase is a bad strategy (Edinburgh do it each week) - it's that we don't implement it well. Sam Clyne is a better box kicker than Laidlaw who has neither disguise nor great distance.

Cotter seems to like giving players a solid run in a squad before changing things and that is commendable but for ths last match, I really hope that he regards it as a development opportunity for some of the others. Hamish Watson and Ben Toolis have to make the subs bench or I'm going to have an aneurysm. I'd also like to see Clyne have a full 40 at least.

by R!skysports Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:12 pm

How did we lose to both these teams. France and Italy match.. Shocking

by funnyExiledScot Sun Mar 15, 2015 5:11 pm

George Carlin wrote:It's not that kick chase is a bad strategy (Edinburgh do it each week) - it's that we don't implement it well. Sam Clyne is a better box kicker than Laidlaw who has neither disguise nor great distance.

Cotter seems to like giving players a solid run in a squad before changing things and that is commendable but for ths last match, I really hope that he regards it as a development opportunity for some of the others. Hamish Watson and Ben Toolis have to make the subs bench or I'm going to have an aneurysm. I'd also like to see Clyne have a full 40 at least.

Agreed, we should make some changes for the last game. Nothing drastic, but two or three changes to freshen things up. Hidalgo-Clyne is an obvious one, and would possibly consider dropping Harley for Ashe. Harley has been hugely disappointing this tournament, and right now he's the player making way for Josh Strauss.

by tigertattie Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:47 pm

"It's coming home, it's coming home, its coming, the spoon is coming home"

by bsando Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:23 am

bsando wrote: Scotland's 6N 1st half points

8 10 16 13

48

Scotland's 6N 2nd half points

0 13 3 0

16

Says a lot in my opinion, we are letting other teams dictate games in the final 40 and seem to love defending. Need to keep possession longer in the right areas of the paddock.

1st half - 8 10 16 13 10

vs

2nd half - 0 13 3 0 0

16 points scored in 200 minutes of 2nd half rugby (and a s**t load conceded).. What is going on? Apart from Wales (where we scored at the death) we totally crumbled in he last 40 minutes every game. Worrying signs.. can you believe Glasgow are top of the Rabbo? I can't..

by GLove39 Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:31 am

tigertattie wrote:"It's coming home, it's coming home, its coming, the spoon is coming home"

The Scottish 6N Wooden Spoon Thread CAol1-MWAAEM6FC

by Scottish Shaun Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:34 am

Sooner Cotter and co, the better!!

by Scottish Shaun Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:36 am

Meant to say sooner Cotter and co GO, the better.

Change of coaches AND players needed, every single player from this year dropped and never to play again and get in Under 20s

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Sun Mar 22, 2015 8:22 am

Scottish Shaun wrote:Meant to say sooner Cotter and co GO, the better.

Change of coaches AND players needed, every single player from this year dropped and never to play again and get in Under 20s

You're either on the wind up or you're incredibly deluded. I'll put it down to a few too many post match beers.

In case you actually genuinely believe that Cotter should be sacked, do you honestly believe that; A) another coach of a similar or higher calibre would be interested in coaching Scotland? B) by simply changing coaches (again) the same old issues that plague Scottish rugby will miraculously disappear?

Vern Cotter is an excellent coach. Many of the players he has at his disposal are a very long way from excellent. If we were to get all reactionary and sack him off the back of this it would consign us to another 12 months at the very least of rebuilding, and write off the last 12 months entirely. There would be no overnight improvement that some fans are miraculously looking for and long term would probably put us backwards.

Also the fact that you mentioned Redpath as a possible replacement on another thread is what makes me really think you're on the wind up or just don't watch a lot of rugby

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