Super Saturday, Game 3: England v France

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ENGLAND v FRANCE
Saturday 21 March 2015
KO: 17:00
Twickenham Stadium

Referee: Steve Walsh (ARU)
AR1: John Lacey (IRFU)
AR2: Leighton Hodges (WRU)
TMO: Ben Skeen (NZR)

***********************

A. Teams

ENGLAND
 
15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 36 caps)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 8 caps)
13. Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
12. Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
11. Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 7 caps)
10. George Ford (Bath Rugby, 10 caps)
09. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 46 caps)

01. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 30 caps)
02. Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 65 caps)
03. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 49 caps)
04. Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 22 caps)
05. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 37 caps)
06. James Haskell (Wasps, 57 caps)
07. Chris Robshaw (captain, Harlequins, 36 caps)
08. Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 16 caps)

16. Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 21 caps)
17. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 19 caps)
18. Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons, 9 caps)
19. Nick Easter (Harlequins, 50 caps)
20. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 35 caps)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 20 caps)
22. Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 11 caps)
23. Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby, 19 caps)

FRANCE

15 Scott Spedding, 14 Yoann Huget, 13 Gaël Fickou, 12 Maxime Mermoz, 11 Noa Nakaitaci, 10 Jules Plisson, 9 Sébastian Tillous-Borde, 8 Loann Goujon, 7 Bernard le Roux, 6 Thierry Dusautoir (c), 5 Yoann Maestri, 4 Alexandre Flanquart, 3 Nicolas Mas, 2 Guilhem Guirado, 1 Vincent Debaty.

Replacements: 16 Benjamin Kayser, 17 Rabah Slimani, 18 Uini Atonio, 19 Romain Taofifenua, 20 Damien Chouly, 21 Rory Kockott, 22 Rémi Talès, 23 Mathieu Bastareaud.

B. Head to Head

85 Played 85

45 Wins 33

33 Losses 45

7 Draws 7

147 Tries 135

78 Conversions 77

151 Penalties 90

22 Drop Goals 33

1,218 Points 1,036

Hard to say. On the evidence of this 6N, would Lopez have nurtured the offloading game that France utilised in parts today?

ChequeredJersey wrote:But it did line up with our Hooker and not our caller or catchers changing. Simple logic, plus a knowledge from watching Youngs do this time after time off the bench, should heavily point towards Youngs being at least partially at fault. Though from SL's view I think bringing on a hooker to throw straight away is just stupid

Underthrowing is rare for Youngs - he usually overthrows, but the only lineout we officially lost was indeed underthrown. Of course had he thrown it high enough to evade the Frenchman who had got in front of wood, it would also have been too high for Wood to catch.

The one Owens reprieved us on was a weird thing. Our lineout did a strange hokey cokey putting everything in and out, but promptly forgot haskell was not there.

LondonTiger wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:But it did line up with our Hooker and not our caller or catchers changing. Simple logic, plus a knowledge from watching Youngs do this time after time off the bench, should heavily point towards Youngs being at least partially at fault. Though from SL's view I think bringing on a hooker to throw straight away is just stupid

Underthrowing is rare for Youngs - he usually overthrows, but the only lineout we officially lost was indeed underthrown. Of course had he thrown it high enough to evade the Frenchman who had got in front of wood, it would also have been too high for Wood to catch.

The one Owens reprieved us on was a weird thing. Our lineout did a strange hokey cokey putting everything in and out, but promptly forgot haskell was not there.

I thought it was maybe a deliberate ploy?

That was a super game England. You had me worried at times! Hard luck on the championship (but I'm glad we did win it).

I've never seen a a test match like it, its fair to say. One of those games that will be remembered long from now.

LondonTiger wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:But it did line up with our Hooker and not our caller or catchers changing. Simple logic, plus a knowledge from watching Youngs do this time after time off the bench, should heavily point towards Youngs being at least partially at fault. Though from SL's view I think bringing on a hooker to throw straight away is just stupid

Underthrowing is rare for Youngs - he usually overthrows, but the only lineout we officially lost was indeed underthrown. Of course had he thrown it high enough to evade the Frenchman who had got in front of wood, it would also have been too high for Wood to catch.

The one Owens reprieved us on was a weird thing. Our lineout did a strange hokey cokey putting everything in and out, but promptly forgot haskell was not there.

Agree with LT you can't blame Youngs for the French jumper knowing England's habit to go to the tail in the opposition 22. Youngs has actually thrown better than Hartley this tournament in a contrast to last year.

England were at times excellent in attack, mainly due to one of the best scrum half performances you are likely to see. They were, however, lazy and tactically inept in defence. The kick chase was lethargic at best as was the line speed in defence giving the French easy yards. Tactically the drift was agonisingly slow from the inside and the players on the outside often rushed up on their own and we're picked off about half the time leaving two on ones. Frustrating.

They were over the edge at times. Can't remember the last time I saw England so fired up. Thought Ben Youngs was almost in tears after scoring the first try

Didn't see Haskell in post game huddle…would he/should he ever play for England again? Even though they only really came third as vunipola did not score a try, I am glad to see reaction of England players who played their hearts out, not 2nd-place-accepters like most of the fans on here.

Should we be rending our shirts tearing our hair gnashing and wailing about being one goal short over five games ? Or applauding a record breaking exhibition of rugby and some fantastic individual performances at HQ on super Saturday ? Haskell....yes bit of a tool on that 'trip'to the bin.

I cannot remember a better game against the French at home in the 6ns. Even the game when France went from under their own goal line and Saintandre score that remarkable under the post.

To think we missed out by 6 points was hard to take really.

Regards Haskell stupid slip and trip, it was just that stupid. Should it cost him his place in the squad? All i do know is we cannot afford any thing like this to happen in the RWC it could cost us big time.

Young's throwing was pretty shocking to be fair, I don't think he can be defended. He's an odd player, he seems quite limited in his skill set which is odd as he used to play centre didn't he?

He adds impact which is good but he makes numerous mistakes and his throwing can be dreadful. Hooker is certainly a position which is pretty open leading up to the WC.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Young's throwing was pretty shocking to be fair, I don't think he can be defended. He's an odd player, he seems quite limited in his skill set which is odd as he used to play centre didn't he?

He adds impact which is good but he makes numerous mistakes and his throwing can be dreadful. Hooker is certainly a position which is pretty open leading up to the WC.

His throwing was statistically better than Harley's this tournament, just goes to show if you have a preconceived notion, it won't chnage

It's not like that all Nathan, he has history (a lot of history) in poor throwing.

I agree he's went quite well this 6N but he's prone to some serious breakdowns which imo is not good enough.

You could say Hartley had an unusual tournement in his throwing stuttered and Youngs had an unusual one in it actually went ok (until the French game). I'll stand by the opinion I've had since he came on to the Int scene, Youngs is not an International hooker.

I also think Hartley has had a very average 6N both in the loose and the set piece, hooker is becoming a little bit of an issue coming into the WC.

To say Hartley had an average 6N is being generous. Lancaster dare not drop him after standing by him. Really not the abrasive hooker he is at his best. Youngs two intercepted throws were both to the man they were picked off because England call the same move every time they're in the 22. We're too obvious.

Youngs has made a positive impact in every game. I'm unsure why he isn't starting.

The England midfield is my main concern. Currently we have two running threats who offer no play making or strategical support to the ten. Heaps pressure on to the half backs. Add in they can't organise a defensive line and that's a concern going into the RWC.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Hard to say. On the evidence of this 6N, would Lopez have nurtured the offloading game that France utilised in parts today?

Good point CJ. Lopez passing and decidion making has been suspect at times and Plisson was good at making the ball go wide (the centres also helped!). However he was a bit lazy in defense and it looked like he never met his SH at times (I blamed them for giving Youngs too much room). I really liked our backs yesterday (fickou, nakaitaci, even Spedding surprised me)but it's true that England defense gave them plenty of room to operate (you cant have players ready to counter attack if they all committed in rucks though and I supposr england thought France would knock on anyway). Still a refreshing change to see France attacks going through more than 5 phases!

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I also think Hartley has had a very average 6N both in the loose and the set piece, hooker is becoming a little bit of an issue coming into the WC.

I have this feeling that Hartley is being too man managed by SL. He is having his natural aggression removed and its affecting his game. Sure he may give away the odd penalty and even get carded from time to time but an aggressive Hartley is a much better player than the passive Hartley.

Youngs doesn't start because of his throwing Sam. I wish there was a better option than him tbh as I doubt he'll ever be up to it on a regular basis.

Webber needs to get his form back

Youngs throwing that was pretty much immaculate before the French game and there the line outs were intercepted by French skill as opposed to the throw. Maybe you are referring to the excellent season he's having at Tigers where his throwing and the line out in general has been about the only reliable aspect of our play. In the HEC we had the best line out success during the group stages (of I remember that opta nugget correctly). Your a year out of date Sgt.

Agree on that Nachos this passive Hartley is largely anonymous.

Youngs is prone to melt downs at Int level, I'm sure we can agree on that if nothing else. His throwing has been good this 6N but every line out can go eihter way imo, I don't expect him to throw well.

His Tigers form matters little, he's had a good run at Int level now and is prone to the same mistakes. He also seems devoid of brains in the loose which is another matter outside his throwing.

Some players are unable to step up to Int level, Youngs is one of thiose players imo.

Youngs had one underthrow against France (though a good read by the french would have made it impossible for Wood to take it) and one big overthrow against Scotland rescued by Nowell. he is certainly far from Mr Reliable - though no where near as bad as painted.

Statistically (and these should always be taken with a pinch of salt) England lost one lineout during the 130 minutes or so that Youngs was on the pitch, and seven while Hartley was on in approx twice as long.

Against Scotland when England lost their 5th lineout of the season in the opposition 22 (all at that stage while Hartley was throwing) the commentators stated that Hartley's usually accurate radar had faltered.

On top form, Hartley is comfortably Englands best hooker (and for me best in NH). He has not been in top form however - but was worth keeping in the side. Now they just need to find out a way to enable him to play to his potential without risking the inner chimp appearing.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Youngs is prone to melt downs at Int level, I'm sure we can agree on that if nothing else.

I cannot agree with that.

I have seen no genuine evidence of repeated meltdowns - or even one. Closest was coming on against NZ in 2013 where he missed his first two. Youngs haters will blame him, Youngs apologists will point out that Lawes told reporters that for the first he change the call and forgot to tell the hooker and for the second his lifters got their timing wrong.

It's not a case of hating Youngs, I want the best for my country. If he performed consistantly I'd say so but he doesn't. His throwing is just not good enough, I just can't see how anyone would think it was.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's not a case of hating Youngs, I want the best for my country. If he performed consistantly I'd say so but he doesn't. His throwing is just not good enough, I just can't see how anyone would think it was.

i believe you have made your mind up and will never be convinced otherwise. His throwing has been no worse than Hartley or Thomson (though to be fair some days my dead, blind granny stood more chance of hitting a barn door than Wally), and is better than Webber's. It was his throwing (and Hartley's potty mouth) that got him into the Lions team. Throwing to the lineout seems to be a majore issue across Britain and Ireland over recent years. Ford, Best and Hibbard all had what appeared to be the yips at various stages. Even in the AP, with Hartley off form, the only decent thrower is Jamie George.

I thought Parling was running the lineout yesterday.

Unbelievable day of Rugby yesterday, I am still exhausted.

Congrats Ireland, it's going to cost me a pretty penny next week, half the guys I work with are Irish.

What have we learned:

NEGATIVES

Burrell is not the answer at 12 and I am a Saints fan, just too slow.

Watson's tackling makes Ashton a master in that area.

Nowell is to short to field kicks that can get challenged by big wingers, see Ireland with Bowe and yesterday with Huget

Haskell has limited brain cells that frequently short circuit after one good game, did nothing else.

Youngs is prone to panic occasionally, his pass to Lawes shoulder when the ball popped out, he should have recycled, he had support.

Wigglesworth is not an international level 9, he slows everything down too much.

Our box kicking or our chase still leaves a lot to be desired, why kick if you are not going to chase. The attacker going for the ball is in a much better position than the static defender these days.

POSITIVES

Boy, can we play attacking rugby.

We can put out two packs that are the equivalent of just about any other side. When all 100% at least a match for SA, better than anyone else.

Lawes frightens the life out of outside halves and is one of the best locks in the world.

We have Manu to come back, he will have to play 12, Joseph has claimed the 13 shirt for a long time, he is a revelation.

When we do not play mad rugby, we are still good defensively.

Ford has become a reliable kicker, if not in 1/2P class (anyone got any news on him, looked nasty when he got hurt)

We have options at 10 with Farrell to come back if we want to close a game down of Cips if we want to open it up.

Robshaw has proved he can play the out and out 7 role better than just about anybody and adds to that the work and tackling or a 6.

Youngs, Ford and Joseph all work brilliantly together, they seem to read each others minds. Hopefully Care can get back to some sort of form although there could be clash of styles with Ford, needs to be tried though.


Roll on the WC.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's not a case of hating Youngs, I want the best for my country. If he performed consistantly I'd say so but he doesn't. His throwing is just not good enough, I just can't see how anyone would think it was.

i believe you have made your mind up and will never be convinced otherwise. His throwing has been no worse than Hartley or Thomson (though to be fair some days my dead, blind granny stood more chance of hitting a barn door than Wally), and is better than Webber's. It was his throwing (and Hartley's potty mouth) that got him into the Lions team.  Throwing to the lineout seems to be a majore issue across Britain and Ireland over recent years. Ford, Best and Hibbard all had what appeared to be the yips at various stages. Even in the AP, with Hartley off form, the only decent thrower is Jamie George.

If he ever improves I'll change my mind on him, until then I'll wait for his regular collapse.

He's just not good enough currently.

If he improves he will be world class. Youngs could have a perfect season and still I doubt you would change your mind. Your mind is set and evidence is irrelevant.

Right now he is our second best hooker. I wish his throwing were better, but am glad it is no where near as bad as you claim. I wish Webber could fulfill his potential as I wanted him to be our starter by now, but he has not. I wish Lancaster would look at george - but instead he will call up LCD who makes Youngs, Hartley and Webber look like Phil Taylor when it comes to throwing.

What evidence? Give me a set of games (AI, 6N, Summer Tour) when Youngs hasn't missed at least 2 throws in his 20min cameo.

I wish he was better too but the plain reality is his throwing is not Int standard. Perhaps if you took your Leicester goggles off you might see yourself

What a game of rugby that was. I thought the 6 Nations was dead, but this weekend of rugby proves otherwise. Unlucky England, but you gave it a good shot. Lawes put in a mighty hit too, and the reaction of the French players was just cowardly and pathetic.

thank you Saint

The Saint wrote:Lawes put in a mighty hit too, and the reaction of the French players was just cowardly and pathetic.

The French guy certainly wasn't a coward taking the hit. It had neck snapper power.........................

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What evidence? Give me a set of games (AI, 6N, Summer Tour) when Youngs hasn't missed at least 2 throws in his 20min cameo.

No lost lineouts against Wales.
No lost lineouts against Italy
1 against Ireland
no lost lineouts against Scotland (admittedly Nowell saved him)
1 lost lineout against France

No lost lineouts in the AIs
No lost lineouts on the summer tour.

So a grand total of two lost lineouts in 12 months. Serious meltdown.


OK he did not play in AIs and Summer tour - but I have seen people moan how poor he was in them.

Impressive stats. Still no where near Hartley's throwing for me but not quite the train wreck some make out.

Those stats are nowhere near the truth.

If Youngs had misthrown twice in 12 months I'd be at the front of the queue shouting for him.

He fluffed 2 throws against France alone. He never throws well, the jumper always has to do a lot of work or we get lucky with one of his numerous overthrows.

Stats in this case (inaccurate ones at that) do not tell the full picture with Youngs.....he's not good enough.

I don't particularly like Hartley that much but he's generally on a different planet with his darts (bar a poor run this 6N). He nails his man and its most of the time extremley clean.

Youngs is a disaster waiting to happen at Int level, no amount of Tigers bias is going to change that.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What evidence? Give me a set of games (AI, 6N, Summer Tour) when Youngs hasn't missed at least 2 throws in his 20min cameo.

No lost lineouts against Wales.
No lost lineouts against Italy
1 against Ireland
no lost lineouts against Scotland (admittedly Nowell saved him)
1 lost lineout against France

No lost lineouts in the AIs
No lost lineouts on the summer tour.

So a grand total of two lost lineouts in 12 months. Serious meltdown.


OK he did not play in AIs and Summer tour - but I have seen people moan how poor he was in them.

Youngs didn't play in the AI's or the Summer tour, you can't miss if you don't play.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Impressive stats. Still no where near Hartley's throwing for me but not quite the train wreck some make out.

Impressive stats if he'd have played. Stats are not great in this context.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:What evidence? Give me a set of games (AI, 6N, Summer Tour) when Youngs hasn't missed at least 2 throws in his 20min cameo.

No lost lineouts against Wales.
No lost lineouts against Italy
1 against Ireland
no lost lineouts against Scotland (admittedly Nowell saved him)
1 lost lineout against France

No lost lineouts in the AIs
No lost lineouts on the summer tour.

So a grand total of two lost lineouts in 12 months. Serious meltdown.


OK he did not play in AIs and Summer tour - but I have seen people moan how poor he was in them.

Youngs didn't play in the AI's or the Summer tour, you can't miss if you don't play.

Apologies, I didn't see the bottom small text, I'm on my phone.

The trouble with Youngs throwing is that he generally mucks up in a crucial attacking field position where England have done a lot of good work to get to and need to score. Pretty poor really.