Leinster vs Bath - 4th April 15:15BST

First topic message reminder :

Leinster Rugby:

15Rob Kearney 14Fergus McFadden 13Ben Te'o 12Ian Madigan 11Luke Fitzgerald 10Jimmy Gopperth 9Isaac Boss
1Cian Healy 2Sean Cronin 3Mike Ross 4Devin Toner 5Mike McCarthy 6Jordi Murphy 7Sean O'Brien 8Jamie Heaslip (capt)

16Richardt Strauss 17Jack McGrath 18Martin Moore 19Tom Denton 20Dominic Ryan 21Eoin Reddan 22Gordon D'Arcy 23Zane Kirchner



Bath Rugby:

15Anthony Watson 14Horacio Agulla 13Jonathan Joseph 12Kyle Eastmond 11Matt Banahan 10George Ford 9Micky Young
1Paul James 2Rob Webber 3Kane Palma Newpor t4Stuart Hooper (capt) 5David Attwood 6Carl Fearns 7Francois Louw 8Leroy Houston
16Ross Batty 17Nick Auterac 18Max Lahiff 19Matt Garvey 20Alafoti Fa'osiliva 21Peter Stringer 22Sam Burgess 23Tom Homer


Match Officials
Referee Jerome Garces (France)
Touch Judge 1 Christophe Berdos (France)
Touch Judge 2 Patrick Pechambert (France)
Fourth Official Eric Gauzins (France)
TMO Eric Gauzins (France)
Citing Commissioner Yves Thieffine (France)

Can't see Leinster beat Toulon away. I wonder does that win save Matt O'Connor's job?

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:I honestly thought that the last penalty should have been awarded to Bath and not Leinster... Anyways, well done Leinster on the win and well done Bath for a fine fightback and some very nervous moments.

Me too. I never, ever expect Garces to make the right decision at times like that.

would not have begrudged Bath extra time in that match, they did very well to get back so close. Stringer made a hell of a difference when he came on for them.

If they had got a penalty at the end they would have went through on trys scored with no extra time (I think). Wouldnt have been able to argue with that result TBH

Don't know why that penalty is being debated. The first offence was in from the side. Then Strauss flicked the ball. First offence wins, penalty leinster.

Would like the see the final tackle stats - at one point in the game Leinster had made 37 tackles, missed 17. Absolutely awful stuff.

I think Bath can feel exactly how Glasgow felt after the game at the rec, scrum lost them the game despite being confortably the better team ball in hands!

kunu wrote:Don't know why that penalty is being debated. The first offence was in from the side. Then Strauss flicked the ball. First offence wins, penalty leinster.

Would like the see the final tackle stats - at one point in the game Leinster had made 37 tackles, missed 17. Absolutely awful stuff.

I thought that stat was wrong, terrible tackling from Leinster. Ended with 78 tackles made, 26 missed.

kunu wrote:Don't know why that penalty is being debated. The first offence was in from the side. Then Strauss flicked the ball. First offence wins, penalty leinster.

Would like the see the final tackle stats - at one point in the game Leinster had made 37 tackles, missed 17. Absolutely awful stuff.

Was it a ruck though?

Golden wrote:
If they had got a penalty at the end they would have went through on trys scored with no extra time (I think). Wouldnt have been able to argue with that result TBH

Commentator said that a few times, however:

http://www.epcrugby.com/europeanrugbychampionscup/rules.php wrote:2.5 In the event of a tie at full-time in the quarter-finals, semi-finals or final, extra time of 10 minutes each way will be played. If the scores remain tied, the winner will be determined as follows:
(a) the club that scored the most tries in the match (including extra time) or
(b) if equal, by a place-kick competition.

Too many mistakes from Bath today. If they had won a penalty at the end there, and elected to go for goal, then it would have been the sort of kick Ford might easily have missed on his kicking form today.

Good match to watch for the neutral. Not sure Bath substitutes added as much impact as they needed. The scrum continued to be a problem, and Burgess knocked on from a very promising position.

Bath played all the rugby Bit disappointed in their backline though, Ford aside. The front row and Madigans boot won the game. Madigan was good (one or two of our other backs would do well to learn from him how to straighten the line) but I can only think that it was those missed kicks that cost Ford the MOM award.

Leinster didn't show much to suggest that they will go any further in the competition.

nathan wrote:

kunu wrote:Don't know why that penalty is being debated. The first offence was in from the side. Then Strauss flicked the ball. First offence wins, penalty leinster.

Would like the see the final tackle stats - at one point in the game Leinster had made 37 tackles, missed 17. Absolutely awful stuff.

Was it a ruck though?

As far as I understand, the "gate" only exists before a ruck is formed, and you can give away penalties by joining a not yet formed ruck when not through the gate. Once a ruck is formed the gate is replaced by the hindmost foot rule.

Engine#4 wrote:Bath played all the rugby Bit disappointed in their backline though, Ford aside.  

Watson was a constant threat, otherwise though all three centres offered little and Banahan and Agulla seemed to have grease on their hands. Agulla was a threat whenevr he managed to actually catch the ball.

Final stats have leinster missing 1 in every 3 tackles. So so bad.

You could argue the toss over a few of the calls but in the end handling errors cost Bath.

I think Bath being down to their 3rd choice TH was lucky for Leinster - without the scrum dominance I think it would have been a different story - plus Bath unlucky with a few calls.

I think one area Leinster should never feel lucky to dominate is the scrum. After all, they have 6 international front rowers, each of whom are very good. It's an area they have definately under performed in during the competition, but really we have no excuse for not putting other teams under pressure with the experience available.

True but Bath injuries there can't have helped.

Absolutely, I just wish Leinster had more of a killer instinct. They should expect dominance with the players they have available, ie all 4 of Ireland's props. Even if Bath had David Wilson available Leinster would have the better scrum on paper, with genuine front line internationals to bring off the bench. It's just a drop in the ocean of things which annoy me about this Leinster team!

They'll certainly need to improve for the semi I would say.

So kunu, do you think that the pressure on MOC will have eased after this win or do you think (given the win but how close it was at home and that Leinster did not play well in the last 20mins) that the pressure may actually increase on him?

Toulon should have beaten us by a lot more last year. If we play them again, they will rack up the points and hopefully force leinster into reevaluating their game. We can't keep playing like this.

So probably out of pro12 playoffs and unconvincing winner of their QF but likely out in the semi in France. Will this be considered a good season for Leinster fans?

Nachos Jones_1 wrote:So kunu, do you think that the pressure on MOC will have eased after this win or do you think (given the win but how close it was at home and that Leinster did not play well in the last 20mins) that the pressure may actually increase on him?

I think the pressure will remain unchanged. One really annoying thing about MOC is that he always harps back to the "win is a win" mentality when questioned about Leinster's performance. He doesn't seem to have a problem with the team's lack of direction. For that reason they would really need a big loss to derail him. I'm sure the dwindling numbers showing up for Leinster games won't go unnoticed however! I would agree with the sentiment that the Irfu are not too unhappy to see Leinster playing such rudderless rugby in the World Cup year, the less club games in line for the Ireland players the better!

A win is a win though. I don't think we should get into a cycle of sacking coaches whenever we're not the best in Europe.

Irish teams will always have to punt on relatively unknown or inexperienced coaches because we just don't have the budgets of the French or English. We got it very right with Cheika and Schmidt. O'Connor hasn't won many fans. But he hasn't been terrible. Just mediocre when compared to Joe Schmidt. I'll judge him when the season is over.

I honestly think he has been terrible. I don't have a problem with not being best in Europe, I have a big problem with under performing though. The players are holding up leinster at the moment, the breakdown and scrum saved us. Our general phase play is so clueless it's painful. The team has no identity at all, there's nothing you associate with Leinster at the moment.

If we dropped out in the group stages but played with some ambition and direction I would be much happier.

kunu wrote:Final stats have leinster missing 1 in every 3 tackles. So so bad.

1 in 4 i thought.

104 attempted, 78 made, 26 missed.

Don't even have the excuse of finding the wrong stats. I used those stats and calculated it incorrectly. Literally a schoolboy error.

Meh you're still in a semi. Wasps might do you a favour tomorrow. Otherwise I would say that's it.

Don't be so hasty.  

Leinster shouldn't be winning but are... or drawing...

Maybe next time it might be the first game of the year that they'll win and actually fully deserve it!

Oh BTW get that Stringer man back here now. Should never have been forced to leave - if Munster didn't want him he'd still have added a bundle to any of the other 3 sides at 9.

VinceWLB wrote:Well Bath clearly looked like the better team, scrum aside.

.

Not sure - first half leinster - second half Bath.

Leinster made ground fairly easily in the first half even if not really threatening the line that much dominating possession and territory. Second half they seemed to lose intensity and Bath stepped it up. Ford however was outstanding. Lookerd world class. England have been waiting a long long time for a complete 10 in the carter mould - have they found one?

Getting more impressed by Ford as each game passes. Sure he still makes mistakes with charge-downs and the odd kick from hand (place kicking could improve too) but he really is a classy player. The try and assist were top drawer.

Tough luck Bath. Leinster had that bit of grit when they needed it, controlled possession (especially in the first half) and kicked their penalties. Much like Ireland.

What a turn around from a few years ago tho - the Pro 12 team grinding out a win based on scrum dominance and penalties and not really threatening the try line much while the AP team scored some good tries and lost. Its a funny old game

I think I might have preferred bath to have won simply for the tries scored - and I was born in the west country.

Leinster had the nous.

They played dreadful rugby.

They hopefully will have a hatful put on them by Toulon - or Wasps if they're fortunate to win.

For all that, the French are in their pomp at club level.   Clermont v Saints was men against boys today - truly demoralising defeat for the Premiership champions.  

The Racing/Saracens match tomorrow should be interesting.   I'm kinda hoping Saracens win it just to stop the French gallop - maybe even - gulp - cheering on Ashton scoring a couple of tries..

TJ surely a "world class" 10 should be able to kick the necessary points to win the match?

beshocked wrote:TJ surely a "world class" 10 should be able to kick the necessary points to win the match?

Em...perhaps.  But World Class does not mean 'machine' or mistake resistant.  All world class players have days they make mistakes.  It's all learning at this point.  Madigan took his kicks, Sexton often misses.  One is considered world class, the other is considered merely a utility player.

beshocked wrote:TJ surely a "world class" 10 should be able to kick the necessary points to win the match?

He should have got the conversion, he knows that - but then narrow margins as both kickers had ones that hit the inside of the far post. Fords bounced out, Madigans over.

Penalty was never going to be knocked over. Dumb choice by Hooper as Ford is not a 50m+ kicker.

beshocked wrote:TJ surely a "world class" 10 should be able to kick the necessary points to win the match?

Nope - a world class kicker should. it doesn't have to be the ten who kicks. How many did he miss today and from how far? world class 10 =/= world class kicker. Ford created the only tries scored today with some great vision awareness and skill. his dummy and run for his try was right out of the top drawer. I'd much rather a player like ford who is a 70% kicker than Farrell who is a 90% kicker ( dunno if thats the percentages but you get the point) To win the WC you will need to score a lot of tries - you have more chance with Ford than Farrell even if Farrell is a better kicker. Ford was 50% today - IIRC the conversion was right out wide which is difficult for anyone and the other was a poor captains decision to go for goal- out of Fords range Longer than he had kicked all season. Not his fault. One of the reasons Chris Patterson had such high kicking % was that he didn't try to go for kicks on the edge of his range.

One of the reasons Bath brought Homer in is surely for his kicking. In a big game like this I would have thought they would have taken the extra kicking responsibility off Ford, started Homer at FB and put Watson on the wing where he's played for the last couple of months internationally.

Ultimately the game was lost in the penalty machine James and 3rd choice TH though, compounded with truly dismal handling errors (particularly from the wings), Eastmond's forward passes and a couple of no look passes from Attwood

niwatts wrote:One of the reasons Bath brought Homer in is surely for his kicking.  In a big game like this I would have thought they would have taken the extra kicking responsibility off Ford, started Homer at FB and put Watson on the wing where he's played for the last couple of months internationally.

Ultimately the game was lost in the penalty machine James and 3rd choice TH though, compounded with truly dismal handling errors (particularly from the wings), Eastmond's forward passes and a couple of no look passes from Attwood

I thought Fearns discipline was also incredibly poor. Bath's discipline in the first half is what cost them. Leinster were not only unable to score a try but actually missed one in four tackles as well. As O'Driscoll intimated, how you can be as indifferent as Leinster and be in the semi-finals of Europe I simply do not know.

Artful_Dodger wrote: As O'Driscoll intimated, how you can be as indifferent as Leinster and be in the semi-finals of Europe I simply do not know.

It's been a weird year but that line about sums it up.  Everyone thinks it's been an absolute disaster season for Leinster ... often playing like genuine amateurs in some games.  That's not being 'bad' in the context of how high and how good they've played in the past but simply bad in the context of what a really bad team in any league looks like.

I know the Big Boys have been missing to an extent but, even so, that's been the situation in overall perception and yet here we are - they're semi-finalists in Europe again and are still in with a fighting chance (if slim) of making the play-offs of the Pro12 .....

Bath's discipline in the first half is what cost them. .

Which is really rather surprising seeing as it was their good discipline that got them past Glasgow

TJ wrote:

beshocked wrote:TJ surely a "world class" 10 should be able to kick the necessary points to win the match?

Nope - a world class kicker should.  it doesn't have to be the ten who kicks.  How many did he miss today and from how far?  world class 10 =/= world class kicker.  Ford created the only tries scored today with some great vision awareness and skill.  his dummy and run for his try was right out of the top drawer.  I'd much rather a player like ford who is a 70% kicker than Farrell who is a 90% kicker ( dunno if thats the percentages but you get the point)  To win the WC you will need to score a lot of tries - you have more chance with Ford than Farrell even if Farrell is a better kicker.  Ford was 50% today - IIRC the conversion was right out wide which is difficult for anyone and the other was a poor captains decision to go for goal- out of Fords range  Longer than he had kicked all season.  Not his fault. One of the reasons Chris Patterson had such high kicking % was that he didn't try to go for kicks on the edge of his range.

I agree. For instance, Halfpenny is a world class kicker. He is not a ten.

Ford is a world class ten and not a great place kicker. Bath and England need to find a solution. Homer at full back for Bath is fairly obvious. Farrell at twelve is an option for England.

Has anyone actually seen Homer kicking for Bath so far? Dreadful.

Ford's accuracy has improved significantly, while his kicking percentage for England is similar to Farrell's - his main issue is he just does not have the range to kick 50m goals.

VinceWLB wrote:So probably out of pro12 playoffs and unconvincing winner of their QF but likely out in the semi in France. Will this be considered a good season for Leinster fans?

No way,we'd have to win the European Cup before I'd consider it a successful season and even then it wouldn't be a huge success.Our league form has been very poor despite having by far the best squad depth in the league,finishing outside the top 3 is a disaster.

Beshocked has a point. As great as Ford is with the ball, would England be wise to rely on him in a big RWC match?

Sexton is actually a good a kicker, he knocks them over from everywhere. His problem seems to be with the big high pressure kicks his nerves effect his technique and he misses some. But what he brings in defence, with ball in hand and with his tactical kicking means he really dominates games so much that it far outweighs his odd missed kick. I don't think Ford is quite at that level yet. He's definitely a genius in the making but I think the RWC might be coming a bit to soon for him.

Ford is a quality player and I don't think that his kicking is that bad myself. If Wilkinson spends some time with him then he will improve no end.

I would certainly have him over Farrell in the England team. Farrell may be the better kicker but Ford brings so much more, he brings more balance to England than Farrell does. He does actually remind me a lot of a young Wilkinson (before he was more seen as a kicker) with his attacking style. Right man at the right time for England I think.

Any talk or Farrell is irrelevant until such time as he recovers full form.

As for Leinster it doesnt matter how well you play, as long as you play just a little bit better than the team you are playing against

lostinwales wrote:Any talk or Farrell is irrelevant until such time as he recovers full form.

As for Leinster it doesnt matter how well you play, as long as you play just a little bit better than the team you are playing against

We really didn't play better than Bath though. Leinster keep surviving because they've got 13 out of the 22 that won the six nations against Scotland, and are very difficult to beat. Rugby exists as entertainment, and leinster have absolutely nothing to give. For all their criticisms, I thought Ireland were still entertaining - they had intensity and some great moments of skill. Leinster rarely show anything at all these days.

Leinster were very poor I thought. Never threatened the Bath line and despite their dominance up front they couldn't make it pay.

Bath played the better rugby by miles but just looked like a few players light up front. They're good to watch though

Ford could will be a world class player when/if he becomes more consistent. How did Leicester let him leave? I suppose its similar to the Hanrahan situation in Munster.

At the time he wasn't really ready to be first choice, its a shame as if he had waited 6months flood left and he would of been first choice regardless.

Still annoys me that Leicester put all the hard work in developing him and then couldn't keep hold of him. Professional rugby I suppose.