F1 2015 Bahrain GP Thread - Spoilers of Practice/Qualifying & Race

[Fernando]

First topic message reminder :

Last year Nico Rosberg and Lewis Hamilton held spectators spellbound as they duelled in what was the first night-time race in Bahrain. In the end, it was Rosberg who lost out - so what better place for him to avenge that defeat and also record his first victory of 2015?

Lewis Hamilton (GBR) Mercedes AMG F1 W05 and Nico Rosberg (GER) Mercedes AMG F1 W05 battle. Formula One World Championship, Rd3, Bahrain Grand Prix, Race, Bahrain International Circuit, Sakhir, Bahrain, Sunday 6 April 2014. © Sutton Motorsport Images
There are new elements in play this year of course. The tension in the Mercedes camp is notably higher than it was heading into Bahrain last year. And Ferrari are markedly closer. We can expect the red cars to present another strong challenge to the Silver Arrows in the heat of Bahrain. What we don't know yet is how strong that challenge will be.

Vettel, who like Rosberg and Hamilton has been on the podium in every race so far this season, was sixth in last year's desert epic. All the attention was focused at the front however.

The safety car made a rare appearance courtesy of Lotus's Pastor Maldonado tipping Sauber's Esteban Gutierrez on to this head with 10 laps to run, which put Rosberg, running the soft tyre for his final stint, right onto the tail of the medium-shod Hamilton. The Briton had to mount several robust defences, but clung on to take the narrowest of victories.

"Of course, everyone remembers the race last year and it would be great for the fans if we can put on another great show for them this time," Rosberg says. "If we can do that but with the two top steps in a different order it would be fantastic!

"China was a frustrating weekend for me and I'm glad we have another race right away to get straight back to work. I know I just need to find a little bit more in myself to get back to the top step. I've never won in Bahrain but I've taken the last two pole positions here and also set the fastest lap at this circuit on my Formula One debut, so I know I have the pace.

"It won't be so easy with the competition breathing down our necks. But that makes for even more exciting racing, so I'm looking forward to a great battle and I'm determined to come out on top."

Hamilton, however, is buzzing after his triumph in China.

"It's been a great start - but for me last season showed that you can never feel too comfortable and that's even more the case this time around with Ferrari right there with us.

"I don't actually have the best record in Bahrain compared to other circuits. Last year was my first win here and it was definitely one I'll remember after a great fight with Nico. That's what I love about racing and it's a special feeling to come out on top in a battle like that. I'm in a good place right now. The momentum is with me, so the target is to carry that on and hopefully repeat last year's performance."

Vettel, too, is in a much better place than he was this time last year.

"We have made a great start to the year and the win in Malaysia was wonderful," the Ferrari driver says. "We've taken a podium in each of the three races so far this year, so we are on the right track, and we just need to keep putting the pressure on Mercedes to see what happens next."

Kimi Raikkonen, meanwhile, had his best race of the season in China, and has an excellent record in Bahrain. The Finn has taken six podiums here, more than any other driver - with his 2006 fightback a particular highlight, when he finished third for McLaren after starting from 22nd due to suspension failure in qualifying. Yet to claim a podium in his second spell with Ferrari, this weekend could be the perfect ground to make the breakthrough.

The 5.412-kilometre Bahrain International Circuit is always very dusty and slippery early on but improves quite dramatically as it rubbers in. It requires plenty of downforce and good torque to accelerate the cars out of the tight corners. It's also heavy on the brakes and the rear tyres, and the most marginal on the calendar on fuel with 1.8 kg consumed per lap.

The need for medium to high downforce should favour Mercedes, as might the acceleration and fuel factors, but the higher temperatures may play to Ferrari's strengths even though it will once again be a night race. The SF15-T's excellent front end will doubtless be a strong asset too.

It's thus difficult to call right now whether the two will go head-to-head the way they did in Malaysia, or whether Mercedes will retain the upper hand they enjoyed in China.

It's equally tricky to call who will lead the charge for the lower points-paying positions. While Williams seem to have a firm claim to be the third best team at present, it's incredibly close behind with Red Bull, Lotus, Toro Rosso and Sauber all in the mix.

Of that quartet is it Sauber who currently lead the way, their cause helped by another double points score in China - although Marcus Ericsson's 10th place owed much to the late heartbreak suffered by teenage sensation Max Verstappen. Lotus too could have scored with both men - while Romain Grosjean claimed the team's first points of the year with a strong seventh, team mate Pastor Maldonado scuppered his own hopes by running far too deep into the pit entry at mid-distance.

With so little to choose between the teams in terms of raw performance, tyre management could be decisive. Though 54 percent of the lap is run at full throttle, nearly 80 percent is spent cornering, which works the tyres extremely hard. And the track has the highest degree of asphalt roughness seen in all of the season's races, to the detriment of the tyres' thermal degradation.

To cope with such demands, Pirelli have brought their P Zero white-marked medium and yellow-marked soft tyres to this race. "We have the same tyre choice as we did in China, although there will obviously be a bit more temperature involved," motorsport director Paul Hembery explains. "However, with the race taking place in the evening, conditions won't be as aggressive as they were in Malaysia - or even Bahrain two years ago, when the race was still run during the day.

"A defining characteristic of Bahrain now is that tyre performance changes over the course of the weekend as we slowly edge towards afternoon sessions. Last year's Bahrain Grand Prix had a thrilling finish because of the safety car with 10 laps to go, leading to a great battle between the two Mercedes team-mates. It's harder to know what to expect this year - apart from the fact that it's very unlikely to rain!"

In terms of strategy, Pirelli are expecting a two-stop race, similar to last year's race. The same two DRS zones will also be in operation. The first has a detection point on the exit of Turn 9, with activation on the back straight between Turns 10 and 11. The second is activated on the main straight and the run down to Turn 1, with the detection point located just before Turn 14.

The weather is forecast to be around 33 degrees Celsius on Friday, but slightly cloudier and therefore cooler on Saturday and Sunday, at 29 and 28 degrees C respectively. By race time on Sunday, ambient temperatures are expected to fall to around 25.

The race will start at 1800 local time (1600 BST) and will run over 57 laps.

[Jermaine2015]

Nico has to take positives from this wk end and just needs a bit of luck to get back to nailing poles, I think it's a cop out to say any success is because of having the best car. Vettel in theory has the 3rd best car but was poor, doesn't change tge fact hes a class driver.  Nico did vettel 3 times and it was better the whole race.

Nico's car was a darn lot faster than Sebastian's so that doesn't hold any water...

[rycoys]

I think in terms of performance rather than result, he was 4th on the 1st corner after being 3rd on the grid which lost him so much time on Hamilton again! But fought back and the aggressive overtaking on vettel showed the fight pundits and fans said had been lacking.

[rycoys]

That doesn't hold much weight really the only reason nico past vettel and beat him was because the car was faster? If that's the case the only reason lewis won was because he hadthe fastest car? And is kimis car faster then vettel? Like I say the fastest car argument is just a cop out for not giving a driver credit. Nico was better than vettel simple!

[CaledonianCraig]

I think in terms of performance rather than result,  he was 4th on the 1st corner after being 3rd on the grid which lost him so much time on Hamilton again! But fought back and the aggressive overtaking on vettel showed the fight pundits and fans said had been lacking.

Microscopic crumbs of comfort and not enough to feed any life back into his title hopes as far as I am concerned.

[Gerry SA]

That doesn't hold much weight really the only reason nico past vettel and beat him was because the car was faster? If that's the case the only reason lewis won was because he hadthe fastest car? And is kimis car faster then vettel? Like I say the fastest car argument is just a cop out for not giving a driver credit. Nico was better than vettel simple!

Well it's fairly obviously that the Mercedes has been the best car from 2014 onwards.

19/23 races wins with these new turbo engines.

Sorry to break it to you, but the best car(fastest) 9/10 always wins.

[CaledonianCraig]

That doesn't hold much weight really the only reason nico past vettel and beat him was because the car was faster? If that's the case the only reason lewis won was because he hadthe fastest car? And is kimis car faster then vettel? Like I say the fastest car argument is just a cop out for not giving a driver credit. Nico was better than vettel simple!

No Lewis has virtually identical car to Nico and yet always wrings more pace out of it - well virtually always - than Nico. Nico though is in a faster car than the Ferraris.

[Mad for Chelsea]

I tend to side with CC on most of this thread actually.

First up, the Hamilton debate. What Hamilton is doing is basically the same as what Vettel did in his second title year (2011?) where he basically had the best car by a distance, and a team-mate who seemed still hungover from falling short of the title the previous year. Sound familiar? Yep.

The big difference to last year is that Hamilton seems to have his Saturdays sorted out. There were two main reasons Rosberg stayed close last year:
1) Just how far Mercedes were ahead of the pack, allowing him basically a guaranteed second spot at worst if both cars finished. This has reduced this year, with Ferrari being competitive, and Rosberg has already been beaten by a Ferrari twice.
2) Qualifying. Last year Rosberg out-qualified Hamilton quite badly IIRC. Given Rosberg couldn't overtake Hamilton on track this was significant, as despite Hamilton winning a few races from 2nd on the grid Rosberg managed a few wins from pole nonetheless. This year Hamilton seems to be qualifying much better, and given Rosberg still doesn't seem to be able to pass Hamilton on the Sunday this doesn't bode well for him...

With that in mind, I don't expect Rosberg to be much of a threat to Hamilton this year. Vettel and Raikkonen could challenge, but their car still needs an improvement to be right up there. I suspect they will aid Hamilton rather than hinder him by taking points off Rosberg.

All in all Sunday's result went very well for Hamilton, with Rosberg and Vettel struggling (relatively speaking), and after four races he has a pretty significant lead already (more than a race win). Of course, it can all change very quickly (particularly with a DNF or two), but right now it does seem like Hamilton could very well run away with the title.

[rycoys]

I know that but doesn't change what I said nico was better than vettel not just because of the car.

[rycoys]

Will be interesting when nico finally gets a pole!

[Guest]

Will be interesting when nico finally gets a pole!

I'd expect Hamilton will just simply overtake him, instead of moaning over the radio.

[GSC]

To be fair to Nico, there were team order in play that time

[mystiroakey]

I know that but doesn't change what I said nico was better than vettel not just because of the car.

Well yes he probably was- vettel had a mare of a race and had the extra pit.

Well done to bottas for keeping him behind but he used kimis strategy and had softs at the end- which proved to much for Vettel. I still think Vettel had underlying set up issues all race though.

The sad thing is that Nico had one of his better races yet still only came third. That to me tells me the mercs can not be that dominant. Rosberg may not be a top driver but he is no slouch.. Unless the breaking issue really did mess his race up. Maybe he just didn't know how to reset the breaks back to default as lewis did.. I take it the team cannot tell the drivers how to do this.

[CaledonianCraig]

I know that but doesn't change what I said nico was better than vettel not just because of the car.

That to me tells me the mercs can not be that dominant. Rosberg may not be a top driver but he is no slouch.

Mercedes have had four out of four pole positions, three out of four wins and third is the worst finish either of their two cars have had - that screams dominant to me. Red Bull were called out as a dominant force and even they never had such a start to a season so lets be consistent here.

[mystiroakey]

they have also split the mercs twice- Lewis has had 4 poles- rosberg two 3rds.

that screams a much closer season than last

[CaledonianCraig]

they have also split the mercs twice- Lewis has had 4 poles- rosberg two 3rds.

that screams a much closer season than last

Well it would be tough for it not to be closer than last season but that isn't my point here. My point is that the level of domination Mercedes has is at the very least on a par with what Red Bull had and I would say quite confidently that it even surpasses their domination.

[mystiroakey]

Yes we are talking about two different points- I am talking about the present - you are talking about when RB had the quickest car.

Mercs dominance surpassed almost any time i can remember last year- but not this. very standard year with one quickest car and another trying there hardest to catch up and not to far of the pace

[CaledonianCraig]

Well talking the present - Mercedes are still more dominant than Red Bull were at their peak.

[mystiroakey]

no i wouldn't say there is sufficient data for that at all. You are just clutching at straws making that suggestion. They may be , they may not be, they may be on par. More data is needed

[CaledonianCraig]

We are talking present now. Four races into a season and Red Bull never had a start like Mercedes have had - that is statistically a fact. So, in the present, here and now Mercedes are more dominant than Red Bull were. Yes it MAY change but I doubt it this season.

[mystiroakey]

yeah but is that down to lewis?

or is it down to the car ?

or is it down to rosberg having a mare or being a worse than we thought driver?

you have to factor in the drivers. and 4 races is not a significant amount of data to judge. its a foolish assessment to judge on a few races.

we know ferrari have a good race pace, we know they have utilized better strategy, we know they have decent qualifying pace. they have beaten the top qualifier last year twice already.

but I unlike you am not going to make a judgement call on the data that suggests Ferrari are much better than you think, because its only 4 races in.

[CaledonianCraig]

yeah but is that down to lewis?

or is it down to the car ?

or is it down to rosberg having a mare or being a worse than we thought driver?

you have to factor in the drivers. and 4 races is not a significant amount of data to judge. its a foolish assessment to judge on a few races.

we know ferrari have a good race pace, we know they have utilized better strategy, we know they have decent qualifying pace. they  have beaten the top qualifier last year twice already.

but I unlike you am not going to make a judgement call on the data that suggests Ferrari are much better than you think, because its only 4 races in.

No it isn't down to Lewis I'd say. The Mercedes would be dominant with another driver with champion mentality ie Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen.

Rosberg is not in the category I mentioned above. A very good support driver as proven by not being out of the top three this year but again that job could be being done by another like-minded driver such as Bottas, Hulkenberg etc etc etc.

You did say you were speaking of the present so we can only go on the four races we have had this season and however you want to spin it it is a better start to a season than the dominant Red Bull had even in its best season. If anything it is even more foolish to try to dispute facts.

Ferrari have definitely improved from last year but that isn't hard to say considering what a bitch of a car that was. It is the second best car on the grid and in right conditions for tyres etc they may snatch the odd wins this season but that is all it will be in my opinion.

Well where do you make a judgement call? It is akin to saying three months into the SPL that you will wait before judging if Celtic will win the league - there are some things you can say with a degree of certainty in sport and one of them is that Mercedes will continue to dominate this season and will end up with at least 12 race wins in my guestimation.

[Guest]

I'd say Mercedes are looking at least 14 or 15 race wins, it will only be a select few opportunities of favourable conditions & Mercedes retirements, giving them chances. The only thing I'd worry for Mercedes, is that they look like they've reached their full potential with this car, there hasn't been that much development going on, in comparison to Ferrari, who's concept is all brand new & appears to have a lot of untapped potential. Ferrari have the engine upgrade coming, bringing 30 more Bhp too, for Canada. I think the gap will slowly come down over the season, although not enough to break the dominance Mercedes have. In the hands of Hamilton they still look upwards of half a second quicker in qualifying & then in the race are able to control the races, while managing the tyres, which showcases quite an advantage they still have. It's only in the hands of Rosberg, that it appears Ferrari are closer than actual reality.

[mystiroakey]

F1 is nothing like the SPL at present. as we know there have been many years where a team has got its upgrades and become the better package towards the middle of the season. Ferrari is in touching distance already so if they can get the better package they could even overtake Merc.

However I doubt it(but not ruling it out) and even if they do i doubt they will by enough to beat lewis.. unless rosberg and lewis get into battles akin to alonso and lewis(rookie season) when Kimi won the championship.

I cant see Merc saying to rosberg- sorry pal you are now no.2 driver!! he just will not buy it. But even so Rosberg is just not getting close enough.

We all need a rosberg pole just to see what happens.. I would still back lewis in the race, but at least it will be interesting..

[dyrewolfe]

Nico has to take positives from this wk end and just needs a bit of luck to get back to nailing poles, I think it's a cop out to say any success is because of having the best car. Vettel in theory has the 3rd best car but was poor, doesn't change tge fact hes a class driver.  Nico did vettel 3 times and it was better the whole race.

Nico's car was a darn lot faster than Sebastian's so that doesn't hold any water...

Yet with soft tyres Kimi was able to chase down and get past Nico (assisted by the Mercs' brake glitch) and was closing in on Lewis when the race ended.

Shows you how variable the Ferrari's performance can be, when you consider Vettel was unable to get past Bottas when both were on medium tyres (still can't believe they didn't put Seb on softs for his last stint as well).

Overall Mercedes still have a performance advantage, but the gap can be cut dramatically if other teams play a smart strategy.


Back on current topic, I really hope Nico does win pole fairly soon, just to see if he can recall his aggressive attitude from Bahrain.

Now Hamilton has a bit of a cushion, how hard would he be willing to push Nico for the win? He showed last season he could race tactically and would settle for a podium on the rare occasions a win was out of reach.

He was playing catch-up the first half of last season. Now he's leading, would Lewis want to try and rub Nico's face in the dirt, or would he settle for second and try to get pole next time?

[CaledonianCraig]

F1 is nothing like the SPL at present.

I never said it was but used the SPL as an example that in some instances in sport we can say things with a degree of certainty such as:-

Celtic will win SPL.

Mercedes will dominate F1 this season.

Tony McCoy would win jockeys title this year.

Novak Djokovic will end this year as No.1

These are the instances I mean.

The changes coming in for next season should shake things up a bit but we will see.

[CaledonianCraig]

Of course this isn't any attack on Lewis as all he is doing is what Seb done before him - filling his boots in a superior car but in measuring greatness it clouds things. I'd just love for one of these seasons to be a real close dogfight and give us a world champion that has to use every ounce of their talent to clinch the title.

[dyrewolfe]

Of course this isn't any attack on Lewis as all he is doing is what Seb done before him - filling his boots in a superior car but in measuring greatness it clouds things. I'd just love for one of these seasons to be a real close dogfight and give us a world champion that has to use every ounce of their talent to clinch the title.

Thats something all of us would love to see.

Sadly I think that would require a massive simplification of the rules on car design (to give the smaller teams chance to compete as well).

Can't believe I'm saying this, but it would require someone like Bernie to step in and lay down the law (whether he technically can or not - he seems to have enough influence for whatever reasons). otherwise the Big 5 teams would never agree to it.

On a related note I was surprised to hear him say he would step down if it meant getting VW and Audi on board as works teams. EJ seemed a little taken aback too, but Bernie seemed pretty serious about it.

[CaledonianCraig]

dyrewolfe even if we had two or maximum of three teams relatively evenly-matched at the front it would make for a great spectacle.

[mystiroakey]

Ferrari is pulling back- dont be so defitest- they have an engine upgrade coming . Merc do not and you can tell they are seriously worried about it.

This season is not over yet.

But why are you so surprised by a car that is faster than its closest rival? it happens in 80% of the seasons!! This is F1. unless as Dyrewolfe mentions major changes happen- we will still have this scenario 80% of the time!

[McLaren]

Is anyone else wondering if Ferrari would be even closer to the Mercs if Alonso and Riccardo were in the car?

Are we really to believe that Kimi and Vettel are suddenly 1 and 0.5 seconds respectively faster this season compared to last?

If they have not gained the time they were both loosing last season then the Ferrari could easily be another 0.5 secs closer to the merc.

[dyrewolfe]

dyrewolfe even if we had two or maximum of three teams relatively evenly-matched at the front it would make for a great spectacle.

True, but with so many restrictions on how you're allowed to develop the car and the paradoxically complicated (and expensive) technology that IS allowed, that once a team does gain an advantage, it can be half a season before anyone catches up with them.

A drastic reduction in the complexity of the cars (except anything safety-related) across the board and strict limitations on in-season development would help all teams (budget-wise at least) and make for an even better spectacle, rather than just the usual suspects.

We also need to do away with this ridiculous conservation of fuel and tyres which kills drivers' ability to actually race for long periods.

[dyrewolfe]

Is anyone else wondering if Ferrari would be even closer to the Mercs if Alonso and Riccardo were in the car?

Are we really to believe that Kimi and Vettel are suddenly 1 and 0.5 seconds respectively faster this season compared to last?

If they have not gained the time they were both loosing last season then the Ferrari could easily be another 0.5 secs closer to the merc.

Why not? Its been well publicised that Ferrari have made major improvements in both car design and engine power output (though still not quite on par with Mercedes).

Also your last sentence makes no sense whatsoever...even more so given Vettel was driving for Red Bull last season...

[GSC]

Eh Vettel seems back in the groove this year, Bahrain aside

[McLaren]

Kimi and Seb were easily beaten by their teammates last year and clearly did not maximize the potential of the cars they were driving. Given that, do you believe that they have both regained enough speed to ensure that they are maximising the potential of this years Ferrari?

If they are not, then it is quite easy to imagine either Alonso or Ricciardo getting closer to the mercs in the 2015 Ferrari compared to Seb and kimi.

I don't believe that either of them will have suddenly gained lap time from last season and would predict that with Alonso at the wheel, Rosberg at least, would be under a lot more pressure from Ferrari.

[Fernando]

Well since Kimi & Seb like point and squirt cars id expect Ferrari didn't have to bother making a car to fit him and Fernando. I suspect the fact the car is made for their driving style is the reason for a return to form then anything else.

[Fernando]

Honda has split its turbo, but the way it has done so is different to Mercedes, as the turbo sits within the tight confines of the 'V' of the engine, along with the MGU-H.

To fit a turbo into this space, it appears that Honda has pioneered the use of an axial flow compressor.

Rather than a large centrifugal fan, there are a series of smaller fans along a shaft.

This design spins up quicker, although it may lack the maximum possible boost, which is not such an issue in this fuel-limited formula.

Aligned on the same shaft as the compressor is the MGU-H and the exhaust-driven turbine; the latter appears to sit behind the engine and is of a more conventional design. Honda hopes to improve driveability and reduce the size of the envelope of the engine with this layout.

Above the turbo is a compact, low-line aluminium inlet plenum chamber. Inside, the inlets are turned through 90 degrees to reduce the height of the chamber, while still allowing for variable-length inlet trumpets.

Fernando Alonso, McLaren, Bahrain GP 2015

More conventionally, the oil tank and MGU-K are located at the front of the engine and under the left-hand cylinder bank respectively.

Finally, and again unconventionally, the ERS module ahead of the motor combines the battery and both control electronic boxes (one each for ERS-K and ERS-H) into one unit.

This creates a lower and lighter unit that requires less space under the fuel tank area, which again aids aerodynamic packaging.

Of course, all of this tight packaging means that there's precious little space for external cooling.

All of the ERS elements will require water or oil cooling, which has led to reliability problems and Honda needing to cap power to keep temperatures under control and prevent coolant leaks via the seals around the spinning shafts.

Although Honda continues to have reliability problems, the fundamental design of the power unit is valid and will eventually become both powerful and reliable.

That will mean McLaren's aerodynamic packaging gains can be fully realised over time.

[Guest]

Looks very complex, sorting their issues out will take a significant period of time & money, something the sport is trying to distance itself from. They came to the party one year late, need another year to sort out their troubles & now F1 has agreed to end this engine regulation/format after three years. Typical McLaren foul up, if you ask me.

[GSC]

Frankly I couldn't disagree more. Look at Ferrari and Mercedes this year compared to Red Bull. Its a major advantage to have a specialist engine partner focussing on your team. Both teams can design their cars around the engine due to knowledge that buying teams won't have access to.

McLaren weren't in a position to be competitive with a Mercedes engine this year, so why not amplify the short term pains for lucrative long term rewards.

[Guest]

Agree with GSC, being a works team for McLaren was the only way of competing for championships, customer teams pick up the crumbs. It is a regulation change in 2017, but it's still V6's, so the transition won't be drastic, that work or ideas being thought of now, will be insignificant then, as LiamB is suggesting.

McLaren won't be challenging this season, but they knew that there would be short term pain. This partnership was always a long term project & progress is already being made.

[CaledonianCraig]

But why are you so surprised by a car that is faster than its closest rival? it happens in 80% of the seasons!! This is F1. unless as Dyrewolfe mentions major changes happen- we will still have this scenario 80% of the time!

And as long as that situation crops up in F1 it is my perrogative not to get too excited or praiseworthy of drivers winning world titles in effectively a one horse race if the team-mate is not of champion material. I took this stance with Schumacher when he had no competition, I did it with Vettel and I do it now with Hamilton.

[mystiroakey]

That's fine. You have said it 20 times and no one has disputed it.

[dyrewolfe]

Heh. We sound like a bunch of old farts pining for the days of Mansell vs Piquet and Prost vs Senna.

It is sad though when you witness these seemingly (statistically) amazing achievements which, on closer analysis, turn out to be not that great after all.

This sort of thing did happen in the past (e.g. the 86/87 season when McLaren were the only team running turbo engines and stomped the rest of the field, or the '93 Williams(?) that had active ride control and loads of other gadgets that made it the class of the field). But those sort of seasons were unusual, rather than the norm.

[CaledonianCraig]

Heh. We sound like a bunch of old farts pining for the days of Mansell vs Piquet and Prost vs Senna.

It is sad though when you witness these seemingly (statistically) amazing achievements which, on closer analysis, turn out to be not that great after all.

This sort of thing did happen in the past (e.g. the 86/87 season when McLaren were the only team running turbo engines and stomped the rest of the field, or the '93 Williams(?) that had active ride control and loads of other gadgets that made it the class of the field). But those sort of seasons were unusual, rather than the norm.

I am no expert and can't recall the technicalities of F1 when it was more competitive but it seemed to me to be far more liberal on the design side of things. Teams then seemed to have their own little gadgets or aero designs that gave them an edge over other teams so it kept things more open. Nowadays or at least I'd say in the last ten fifteen years there are so many technical regulations that all creativity is being taken out of the design side of things. I mean there are ride height limits, rear and front wing limits, aero package limits etc etc etc so effectively cars are turned into clones of one another where engine power and tyre management becomes chiefly the be all and end all. I'd like to see a return to the liberal days.

[Guest]

Good points, freedom of innovation & design was always an integral part of F1 & it's appeal, but then on the downside, you can have people like Newey, who given free reign, basically can dominate the sport for years on end. That's why he's pursuing other ventures now, because his skill is being curtailed by tightening regulations & he can't express himself anymore. Problem is, we've gone too far with the importance of the engine & in particular tyre management, it's made the sport boring, limited & whoever has the best engine has monopolised the sport.

[CaledonianCraig]

Heh. We sound like a bunch of old farts pining for the days of Mansell vs Piquet and Prost vs Senna.

It is sad though when you witness these seemingly (statistically) amazing achievements which, on closer analysis, turn out to be not that great after all.

This sort of thing did happen in the past (e.g. the 86/87 season when McLaren were the only team running turbo engines and stomped the rest of the field, or the '93 Williams(?) that had active ride control and loads of other gadgets that made it the class of the field). But those sort of seasons were unusual, rather than the norm.

I am no expert and can't recall the technicalities of F1 when it was more competitive but it seemed to me to be far more liberal on the design side of things. Teams then seemed to have their own little gadgets or aero designs that gave them an edge over other teams so it kept things more open. Nowadays or at least I'd say in the last ten fifteen years there are so many technical regulations that all creativity is being taken out of the design side of things. I mean there are ride height limits, rear and front wing limits, aero package limits etc etc etc so effectively cars are turned into clones of one another where engine power and tyre management becomes chiefly the be all and end all. I'd like to see a return to the liberal days.

Just as an example to what I was saying earlier look at this photo (second post down on a forum) of a Toleman-Hart from 1984.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=15091

A design like that would never be allowed today - and just design-wise speaking as am not speaking for it's beauty.

[Fernando]

Bernie Ecclestone says that Formula 1's engine options for 2017 remain open, insisting the sport could cope with two engine types.

Ecclestone has led calls for a return to a V8/KERS package, and that remains on the table as a cheaper option for struggling teams.

There have also been suggestions that a 'budget' twin-turbo V6 with KERS could be made available to teams as a possible alternative.

Mercedes boss Toto Wolff, however, stated last weekend that all four current manufacturers want to keep a version of the current V6 for any new 1000bhp rules.

In either case the idea is that low-cost customer engines would run alongside their works counterparts, which brings up the difficult question of how the FIA would ensure some form of parity.

"It depends what we're going to do," Ecclestone told Motorsport.com. "Toto does a lot of talking, but no action, if you know what I mean.

"It's not good talking about, 'This is what I'd like.' They are one team.

"I never wanted to go back to V8s, I wanted to set up a single engine to be in F1, which they could run for let's say 10 per cent of what these manufacturers spend. It would be a different regulation, which would be cheaper.

"If the manufacturers then decide this would be a good thing, then that's OK. Or if they want to supply [current] engines at a realistic price to the teams, then good."

Asked about how two types of engine could compete in parallel, he said: "We used to run turbos with normally aspirated engines before. You can do either."

How the likes of Mercedes or Ferrari would react if they face stiff competition from a good team equipped with a 'budget' engine remains to be seen.

Meanwhile, the discussions could also be seen as a way of putting pressure on the manufacturers to lower the prices for the current engines.

Costs went up considerably in the move from V8s to the hybrid last year, and midfield teams feel that they are funding the R&D of the works operations.

"You never have everybody happy," Ecclestone added. "At the moment they are doing a very good R&D project supporting by the teams that are paying. That engine will never be used in any car or a boat or anything. It was never designed to do that.

"Just the regulations were put out, the engineers got hold of it, and said this is what they can do. They've done a super job, but it has to be cheaper."

[Guest]

Wish Bernie would go now, no chance of them agreeing two differing types of engine. It will be the V6 1000bhp option.

[Fernando]

Surprisingly the teams seem fairly open to it... I remember the times when Toro Rosso had a limited V10 whilst everyone else had V8's, They weren't that competitive really mainly cos was 1st season in F1.

Good news for people with insomnia, A singapore investment group is building around Valencia's marina and wants to bring back the F1 race. They were in charge of the Marina Bay circuit...

[Guest]

A new six-star hotel, casino, concert area, shopping centre and other facilities for the marina area, intended to be the "best resort within a city in Europe''.

Believe it, when I see it.

To be honest, if they did it up, as promised & made it a night race, then it would probably be more exciting than Barcelona. Been a couple of good races in Valencia, good overtaking & it's a track where drivers 'can' be punished for driver error. The issue was always the track having no character or features, maybe this new investment could transform it. With Bernie looking at opening up new markets though, not sure there would be much point in all this mind.

Other news today, the bell3nd Helmut Marko has been on the vodka & has accused Mercedes of 'actively' helping Ferrari to catch the reigning world champions in 2015. Marko reportedly senses a political motive, and not just Mercedes' desire to halt suggestions it is damaging F1 by dominating so easily. He might also be referring to the engine rules, with Ferrari having now joined Mercedes in backing the current turbo V6 era, even beyond 2017.

[Guest]

Other news today, the bell3nd Helmut Marko has been on the vodka & has accused Mercedes of 'actively' helping Ferrari to catch the reigning world champions in 2015. Marko reportedly senses a political motive, and not just Mercedes' desire to halt suggestions it is damaging F1 by dominating so easily. He might also be referring to the engine rules, with Ferrari having now joined Mercedes in backing the current turbo V6 era, even beyond 2017.

At first you think 'sour grapes', then you think about how political f1 is & you can see he may have a point. Mercedes knew the advantage was too big & they needed allies in their attempt to show that the V6 era was the right direction to go down & to pass the vote. Reducing, intentionally, the gap to a rival was always going to see Ferrari think that they were onto a winner & agree to keep the v6''s, that Mercedes wanted too. What does the FIA do to end era's of domination like this, massive regs change. With Ferrari's backing, Mercedes now have more power.

How come Mercedes have shown a lack of progress over the summer with the engine, how come Ferari have a new upgrade for Canada, yet Mercedes have revealed no update is forthcoming? Political moves being made, until the future of the sport & engine regs are signed & suited to Mercedes? Interesting stuff.

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