God's Country Vs D4, Kingspan Stadium, Friday 24th April 19:35

First topic message reminder :

Referee: John Lacey (IRFU, 44th competition game)
Assistant Referees: Leo Colgan, Olly Hodges (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Eddie Walsh (IRFU )
TMO: Seamus Flannery (IRFU )




Ulster team & replacements to play Leinster, Guinness PRO12, Kingspan Stadium, Friday 24th April (19:35 kick off):
(15-9): L Ludik; T Bowe, J Payne, D Cave, C Gilroy; P Jackson, R Pienaar; (1-8): C Black, R Best (C), W Herbst, D Tuohy, F Van der Merwe, I Henderson, C Henry, R Wilson;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, B Ross, R Diack, C Ross, P Marshall, I Humphreys, S McCloskey.




LEINSTER:
15.Rob Kearney
14. Zane Kirchner
13. Ben Te'o
12. Gordon D'Arcy
11. Luke Fitzgerald
10. Jimmy Gopperth
9. Isaac Boss
1. Cian Healy
2. Richardt Strauss
3. Mike Ross
4. Devin Toner
5. Mike McCarthy
6. Sean O'Brien
7. Dominic Ryan
8. Jamie Heaslip CAPTAIN

16. Sean Cronin
17. Jack McGrath
18. Tadhg Furlong
19. Ben Marshall
20. Jordi Murphy
21. Eoin Reddan
22. Ian Madigan
23. Darragh Fanning

...oh boy, that's a good catcher for the Munster boys to have a swipe at....

A really nice touch from Leinster https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/591566075273306112

neilthom7 wrote:A really nice touch from Leinster https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/591566075273306112

A lovely gesture

Nothing makes me more nervous than an Ulster vs Leinster were we are being talked of as favourites, however nominally

http://www.harpinonrugby.net/2015/04/preview-ulster-v-leinster.html

Decent article, Notch, and I like the way he has a dig at Cummiskey. Cummiskey deserves it.

Massive game for both sides this evening. Anything other than a win tonight and I don't believe Ulster will make it to the final. Leinster lose and they're out of the play offs altogether. Mouth watering

Knock seven shades out of the D4 LadyBoys, Ulster

SUFTUM!!

Ulster are favourites...  I'd say that's very fair going on respective Pro12 form.

Leinster, though, have just come back from a heavy duty game in France where they drew with the mighty European Champs Toulon (before being whipped in extra time - but even then, not by much)  Six points away from a European final. Who would have thought lax lethargic Leinster would have come so close.

But in Pro12 terms, they're still f**king shyte..... and should have their arses handed to them.

It'll certainly be a very interesting game to watch on quite a few levels for me.  Interesting to see how Ulster seek to outplay Toulon.  Interesting to see how Leinster play (tactics again or lack of them).  Interesting what options they might refuse to take again (that's a longer term, long running observation exercise for me).  And really interesting to see Zane Kutcher and Ben T'eo, and see what they might get up to.  Ben has given hints of how he might explode into this Pro12 when playing heads-up stuff.

Feck!

Bravo Ulster. Paddy Jackson to go to the RWC.

Leinster get exactly what they deserved. Game was crap though.

Well that's it, season over. If anyone thinks MOC shouldn't be sacked, please review Leinster's attacking "gameplan" from minutes 10 to 80. In particular the final 5.

Ah bollox Me109 that was a frickin crackin game yoooooooooooooooou t.w.a.t.

P.S. if you watch house of fools you'll get that

Why is no one looking at the players? Apparently it all seems to be down to the coach at Leinster. There's more to it than that.

Well, killed stone dead.

Congratulations to Ulster. Big Big game from Henderson. But he wasn't alone in making the Leinster boys look oh so light. Good luck in the play-offs

Leinster, just no ideas. Nothing new there! Tired isn't really an excuse. Weren't ready to take on and match Ulster's drive and physicality. Lumbering through and clinging, clinging, clinging. Story of the season.

Cyril wrote:Why is no one looking at the players? Apparently it all seems to be down to the coach at Leinster. There's more to it than that.

No there really isn't,the same players are winning 6 Nations titles.We saw the same thing with Ireland,everybody blaming the player while those of us who watched them week in,week out said it was the coaching that is the problem.What happens when the coach changes,Ireland start performing much better and as a consequence start winning.

Last season Leinster were still winning matches but a lot of Leinster fans were complaining about MoC,we could see the gameplan was crap and the skill levels of the players had dropped (that's a coaching issue,Schmidt had them at a high level it's up to MoC to maintain it) and the gamplan was not only negative but ineffective considering the players we had.Performances dropped but we still scraped the wins so we were told to stop complaining,hey presto this season our results start to match our performances and we are sat here saying "I told you so".

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cyril wrote:Why is no one looking at the players? Apparently it all seems to be down to the coach at Leinster. There's more to it than that.

No there really isn't,the same players are winning 6 Nations titles.We saw the same thing with Ireland,everybody blaming the player while those of us who watched them week in,week out said it was the coaching that is the problem.What happens when the coach changes,Ireland start performing much better and as a consequence start winning.

Last season Leinster were still winning matches but a lot of Leinster fans were complaining about MoC,we could see the gameplan was crap and the skill levels of the players had dropped (that's a coaching issue,Schmidt had them at a high level it's up to MoC to maintain it) and the gamplan was not only negative but ineffective considering the players we had.Performances dropped but we still scraped the wins so we were told to stop complaining,hey presto this season our results start to match our performances and we are sat here saying "I told you so".

Perhaps they were concentrating on the Champions Cup?

Cyril wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cyril wrote:Why is no one looking at the players? Apparently it all seems to be down to the coach at Leinster. There's more to it than that.

No there really isn't,the same players are winning 6 Nations titles.We saw the same thing with Ireland,everybody blaming the player while those of us who watched them week in,week out said it was the coaching that is the problem.What happens when the coach changes,Ireland start performing much better and as a consequence start winning.

Last season Leinster were still winning matches but a lot of Leinster fans were complaining about MoC,we could see the gameplan was crap and the skill levels of the players had dropped (that's a coaching issue,Schmidt had them at a high level it's up to MoC to maintain it) and the gamplan was not only negative but ineffective considering the players we had.Performances dropped but we still scraped the wins so we were told to stop complaining,hey presto this season our results start to match our performances and we are sat here saying "I told you so".

Perhaps they were concentrating on the Champions Cup?

Leinster were muck in the CC as well, squeaked out of the softest group in years and somehow got a home QF, where the better team lost. If bath had a scrum Leinster would have lost that too. MOC is just not up to it.

Cyril wrote:Why is no one looking at the players? Apparently it all seems to be down to the coach at Leinster. There's more to it than that.

Many of those players won a Six Nations against some pretty handy outfits.

That Leinster team has nothing.  Hard to know who to blame but I think MOC can handle his share - he's paid well enough to ship his share.  The players - some of them - are perhaps going through the motions for various reasons this season.  But there again, that's a coach's role to create a sense of competition within the squad....and to do his homework on the opposition.  But all he knows is pick the Top Players when he has them, and then moan when he doesn't.  A squad works by picking the players who are prepared to show it on the field...thus making the presumed settled guys less comfortable.  But MOC doesn't want to coach the lesser guys, just moan about not having his mainstays.

Fly, you're convinced players have been told to rest up for the World Cup aren't you?

I know it Cyril.  I'm long enough in the tooth to know there are a lot of phoney business going on.  That's why I hold off a little on MOC (on other threads).  But he still has a squad who won't be turning up at the WC and he had an opportunity to develop them over two seasons because he ain't dumb either and would know the dynamics of it all.  But nope - no coaching of the juniors - and moaning about the big boys being away - who are playing below par anyway.

Disadvantage of a union-ruling set-up when your side is mostly the international XV?

Wasn't it the players fault as well when Kidney was coach of Ireland? Sometimes the coach just doesn't fit. It's the brand of rugby that is upsetting most people.

Cyril, we're a small Nation.  I'm not moaning.  We're doing bloody great stuff with our resources. I'm enjoying the ride. Leinster fails in Pro12 - hopefully Munster and Ulster now push on. I'm not losing
I'm explaining though that a small nation needs to 'manage' its considered 'best' players as best it can (plus individual players will manage themselves too if they're confident they're going ) - because unlike England, there won't be another 7 or 8 sides to drag players from if they all fall apart in form or injury before the important events.

Well, I'd like to say commiserations to all the Leinster fans (and Chunky). For a long, long time you've had the beating of us and to be perfectly honest I thought that was going to continue tonight 10 minutes in. Even having had so much success, it isn't any consolation when things go against you. Leinster fans always travel to Ravenhill in numbers and are good craic, tonight was no exception. I have no doubt they'll be back with a vengeance soon enough.

While I think some of the criticisms of Matt O'Connor are over the top, I have serious doubts that he is able to deliver success within the strictures imposed by having so many international players. I don't think he's able to work within the IRFUs system. It might be best to start making some enquiries about head coaches.

I'm absolutely delighted with Ulsters performance tonight. Difficult conditions and handling errors from both teams, but Ulsters reaction to Leinsters fast start, the way our halfbacks controlled the game and the physicality of our forwards- all top class. If we continue this form, we are realistic contenders.

Cyril wrote:Disadvantage of a union-ruling set-up when your side is mostly the international XV?

Leinster can have up to 20 players missing at times for extended training camps- having the spine of a test match team is still more of an advantage than a disadvantage as we saw between 2009 and 2012 but it's always going to be difficult to deal with at times. O'Connor hasn't been able to handle the disadvantages it brings.

Notch wrote:

Cyril wrote:Disadvantage of a union-ruling set-up when your side is mostly the international XV?

Leinster can have up to 20 players missing at times for extended training camps- having the spine of a test match team is still more of an advantage than a disadvantage as we saw between 2009 and 2012 but it's always going to be difficult to deal with at times. O'Connor hasn't been able to handle the disadvantages it brings.

Yes, but who could?

Having said that, Schmidt still refers to Leinster as 'we' in interviews so maybe that's good news for the D4ers in the future?

MOC has still taken Leinster to a European semi-final (highest grade in euro rugby) and the best since 2012. It's just difficult to manage resources, especially in the current qualification climate.

It is a very challenging role in that respect. Bit like Moyes following Ferguson, its unbelievably hard to follow a guy who is adored by the fans and has a huge track record of success at a club where the fans have gotten used to success year in and year out.

Schmidt was able to get the best out of Leinster no matter who he had left to field- even when half their squad was away he was able to deliver bonus point wins and consistency. But Schmidt has a rare ability to prepare sides to an extremely high level in a short space of time.

O'Connor seems to need to work with the same group week in, week out which is very difficult in this specific job. I don't think he's happy in the job either.

Tell me something. When Gilroy went for a try at 58:12 how was it not ruled "taken in the air'?

Cyril wrote:

Notch wrote:O'Connor hasn't been able to handle the disadvantages it brings.

Yes, but who could?

Having said that, Schmidt still refers to Leinster as 'we' in interviews so maybe that's good news for the D4ers in the future?

Just follow the Bold trail Cyril

Actually Cheika handled it too.  But they're just different characters.  MOC is an assistant coach trying his hand at Leading.  I think Leading/Head Coach has been a struggle - having to control it all not just the backs.  He stepped into a hot-house and hasn't really been ready to.  He might indeed improve and become another high ranked Head Coach in a few year's time (he'll certainly learn from his struggles with Leinster!).  But I think it was the wrong step for him and us.  So it goes, you don't always get it right.

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Notch wrote:O'Connor hasn't been able to handle the disadvantages it brings.

Yes, but who could?

Having said that, Schmidt still refers to Leinster as 'we' in interviews so maybe that's good news for the D4ers in the future?

Just follow the Bold trail Cyril

Actually Cheika handled it too.  But they're just different characters.  MOC is an assistant coach trying his hand at Leading.  I think Leading/Head Coach has been a struggle - having to control it all not just the backs.  He stepped into a hot-house and hasn't really been ready to.  He might indeed improve and become another high ranked Head Coach in a few year's time (he'll certainly learn from his struggles with Leinster!).  But I think it was the wrong step for him and us.  So it goes, you don't always get it right.

Schmidt it an excellent coach, but I guess that's the problem with hiring someone who is using Leinster (and now Ireland) to stake his NZ credentials.

Cheika is a boobie.

Don Alfonso wrote:Tell me something. When Gilroy went for a try at 58:12 how was it not ruled "taken in the air'?

I would say he didn't actually play Gilroy dangerously, he just shepherded him into touch.

Cyril wrote:

Schmidt it an excellent coach, but I guess that's the problem with hiring someone who is using Leinster (and now Ireland) to stake his NZ credentials.

The Problem being? Success?

SecretFly wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Schmidt it an excellent coach, but I guess that's the problem with hiring someone who is using Leinster (and now Ireland) to stake his NZ credentials.

The Problem being?  Success?

Too much, too young.

?

The Riddler

Out with it, Cyril.

JmD wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Tell me something. When Gilroy went for a try at 58:12 how was it not ruled "taken in the air'?

I would say he didn't actually play Gilroy dangerously, he just shepherded him into touch.

No, it absolutely wasn't dangerous. But it doesn't have to be. Man on ground tackling man in air = penalty. Given that penalty advantage was already being played, I'd have said penalty try. Or yellow card. Just amazed by the difference in applying laws.

Don Alfonso wrote:Tell me something. When Gilroy went for a try at 58:12 how was it not ruled "taken in the air'?

Think its the problem with the guideline that tackling someone in the air is an automatic penalty, if he doesn't tackle him its a try so how can he not tackle him?

Don't think Lacey had a great game, went against three good turnovers including one for Furlong were FvDM went off his feet too and Pienaar put the penalty over for 16-10

So you couldn't legitimately try to stop Ashton splashing and grounding the ball because he was in the air? You have to wait for him to execute the Splash and try before trying to stop him?

Don Alfonso wrote:

JmD wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Tell me something. When Gilroy went for a try at 58:12 how was it not ruled "taken in the air'?

I would say he didn't actually play Gilroy dangerously, he just shepherded him into touch.

No, it absolutely wasn't dangerous. But it doesn't have to be. Man on ground tackling man in air = penalty. Given that penalty advantage was already being played, I'd have said penalty try. Or yellow card. Just amazed by the difference in applying laws.

Interesting point Don. I'm also one for questioning these type of things.

That said, inconsistency are EVERYWHERE in this sport.

I had a feeling it would be Ulster's night from the point where we tackle a man in the air and somehow only got penalised for it!

Don Alfonso wrote:

JmD wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Tell me something. When Gilroy went for a try at 58:12 how was it not ruled "taken in the air'?

I would say he didn't actually play Gilroy dangerously, he just shepherded him into touch.

No, it absolutely wasn't dangerous. But it doesn't have to be. Man on ground tackling man in air = penalty. Given that penalty advantage was already being played, I'd have said penalty try. Or yellow card. Just amazed by the difference in applying laws.

Agreed there needs to be a clarification in the law, but I was happy that it wasn't penalised.

SecretFly wrote:So you couldn't legitimately try to stop Ashton splashing and grounding the ball because he was in the air?  You have to wait for him to execute the Splash and try before trying to stop him?

Well, the difference for me is that Gilroy was jumping for the ball. He wasn't just jumping over the line. He was in the air to gather the ball. I'm not sure the laws would make any distinction, even then. But the Dreaded Splash is nothing to do with taking the ball in the air.

Have to eat a bit of humble pie and give Doak and Clarke some credit. Four more games like that and we will have some silverware. Hopefully we can do it

Don Alfonso wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So you couldn't legitimately try to stop Ashton splashing and grounding the ball because he was in the air?  You have to wait for him to execute the Splash and try before trying to stop him?

Well, the difference for me is that Gilroy was jumping for the ball. He wasn't just jumping over the line. He was in the air to gather the ball. I'm not sure the laws would make any distinction, even then. But the Dreaded Splash is nothing to do with taking the ball in the air.

Jumping when you have the ball could be considered as jumping into a tackle.That's a penalty against the player who jumps (I know this for certain as the flyhalf on my team got penalised twice in a game for doing it) ,it just shows how inconsistent the law is.

The lawmakers just react to incidents and don't think things through,any sensible system wouldn't see a ruling where tackling a player who is in the air can be a penalty both for against the tackler depending on whether the player in the air had possession of the ball before or after he jumped.

Cyril wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Cyril wrote:Why is no one looking at the players? Apparently it all seems to be down to the coach at Leinster. There's more to it than that.

No there really isn't,the same players are winning 6 Nations titles.We saw the same thing with Ireland,everybody blaming the player while those of us who watched them week in,week out said it was the coaching that is the problem.What happens when the coach changes,Ireland start performing much better and as a consequence start winning.

Last season Leinster were still winning matches but a lot of Leinster fans were complaining about MoC,we could see the gameplan was crap and the skill levels of the players had dropped (that's a coaching issue,Schmidt had them at a high level it's up to MoC to maintain it) and the gamplan was not only negative but ineffective considering the players we had.Performances dropped but we still scraped the wins so we were told to stop complaining,hey presto this season our results start to match our performances and we are sat here saying "I told you so".

Perhaps they were concentrating on the Champions Cup?

Who,the players?If so that's a coaching failure as well,it's up to the coaches to prepare the team to perform regardless of the competition.

JmD wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

JmD wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Tell me something. When Gilroy went for a try at 58:12 how was it not ruled "taken in the air'?

I would say he didn't actually play Gilroy dangerously, he just shepherded him into touch.

No, it absolutely wasn't dangerous. But it doesn't have to be. Man on ground tackling man in air = penalty. Given that penalty advantage was already being played, I'd have said penalty try. Or yellow card. Just amazed by the difference in applying laws.

Agreed there needs to be a clarification in the law, but I was happy that it wasn't penalised.

I think you can make an argument that it's against the letter of the law, but it's certainly not against the spirit. I too am happy this incident wasn't penalised in any way, and others like it aren't.

Tommy Bowe jumped to avoid Ashton scoring his second try in THAT game and obviously didn't have the ball. Ashton getting up took him out in the air, and Bowe could have been seriously hurt.

It is not simple having a set of Laws that cover every circumstance.

The Try line is the most competitive area of the field.  Most forceful in attack because of adrenalin - most forceful in defence because of adrenalin.  That's the Holy Grail line and minds become driven when close to them.

THAT is actually a Big part of Rugby Union's attraction to me.... how that mood moves as teams get closer to the promised line, how that proximity can often change their entire mindset, how it can become something less human and more animal and primeval.   Players put their bodies on the line on both sides, as attackers and defenders.

No, I don't want to see serious injuries in any part of the field, but we'd have to be careful not to water down that fever that develops around the try-line too much.  Players know that's a special place and that efforts required to get over it will sometimes be immense and challenging at a physical level.  We'd have to be careful not to create a fear of defending in the defenders or a reason, and method used, for attacking other than distinctly scoring......

Standulstermen wrote:Have to eat a bit of humble pie and give Doak and Clarke some credit. Four more games like that and we will have some silverware. Hopefully we can do it

Possibly 4 games against the same two teams as well

The rules are different in the in-goal area surely.
I thought there were no "tackles" in goal?
If you are trying to stop a player grounding the ball in goal you are allowed to hold onto him even though you are off your feet when you would have to release him in the field of play.

In-goal is the twilight zone!

The Great Aukster wrote:Tommy Bowe jumped to avoid Ashton scoring his second try in THAT game and obviously didn't have the ball. Ashton getting up took him out in the air, and Bowe could have been seriously hurt.

It is not simple having a set of Laws that cover every circumstance.

Only Ashton could be criticised for standing up!

Cyril wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Tommy Bowe jumped to avoid Ashton scoring his second try in THAT game and obviously didn't have the ball. Ashton getting up took him out in the air, and Bowe could have been seriously hurt.

It is not simple having a set of Laws that cover every circumstance.

Only Ashton could be criticised for standing up!

Or in Biggar's case, get criticised for faceplanting the ground and almost breaking his neck.

Just watching back the game and happened to see some nasty play.

Now, clearly the instinctual reaction is that I'm 'having a go'. Its just a fact though that you see these things when they happen your own players.

But I do think there's so much that goes on, that never get's seen or dealth with and it's stuff I don't like seeing in the game.

Call me soft, but I'm just not keen on deliberately inflicting pain on other people unless in a fair contest!

If you scrub through the match here till 37:15, you will see McCarthy tackle Tuohy. When the ruck is formed, McCarthy and Heaslip attempt to clear out and both players just happened to make contact with Tuohy's head as they do so.

Ok, I know I'll never prove any intent there - but it caught my eye and I was suspicious.

Just then, McCarthy picks himself up and returns to the 'gate'. McCarthy proceeds to engage the ruck again with an interesting knee to Callum Blacks back.

I'm sure Ulster players maybe do this stuff too, but I'm just going on the record as saying, I hate it. I'd like it out of the game. I'd like refs to spot every incident of knee strikes and for clumsy footwork to be questioned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXbLwLcXA2Q

clivemcl wrote:

If you scrub through the match here till 37:15, you will see McCarthy tackle Tuohy. When the ruck is formed, McCarthy and Heaslip attempt to clear out and both players just happened to make contact with Tuohy's head as they do so.

Ok, I know I'll never prove any intent there - but it caught my eye and I was suspicious.

Just then, McCarthy picks himself up and returns to the 'gate'. McCarthy proceeds to engage the ruck again with an interesting knee to Callum Blacks back.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXbLwLcXA2Q

After studying that piece 10 or 12 times and isolating both McCarthy and Heaslip, so that I kept my eye on what they individually were getting up to through that period.  I'd have to say, you're clinging very tentatively to the first accusation - I can see no intent from either player to headbutt Tuohy.  Just rough and tough fighting for possession and dominance in the ruck.
On the second point about McCarthy kneeing.  I'd say you're dam right.  It was to me a full reflexive knee plunge, done fast in an attempt to disguise it.

What does it all prove though?  If I had time, I'd try that 10 and 12 times looking at all contact areas during that game, and attempt to isolate individual players within each of those events to see what they were individually doing.  Would all Ulster players be innocent of 'dubious' play through the 80?

I see that you yourself say No, they all probably wouldn't be.  And indeed Ulster have been pulled over the ropes in recent times for considered bad behaviour.  A ref, his assistants and even the TMO don't have the leisure to look back all the time to check for stuff that might have gone unseen.  

Had it been seen, I feel McCarthy would have/should have been pinged for the knee.  But this is rugby.  If the ref had time, and the crowd had the inclination to be patient enough, he could do what we've just done for every contact event.  Go through such events 10 times to be sure he hasn't missed any foul play.  "Just watching the game back" - how does that leisure tie in with a game happening at live speed and doesn't repeat itself unless the ref actually spots something or the TMO spots something in the first place?  They still have to keep their eyes on the continuing live rugby happening so that they don't miss the bits that WILL catch their eye.