Research into the use of the time violation rule - NEW petition expessing concern about it's inconsistant use

First topic message reminder :

I am doing a little research into the application of the time violation rule. Players are meant to take no more than 25 seconds between points. If they take longer they are meant to be given a warning on the first violation and on subsequent ones lose a first serve. It is proving difficult to find information on the number of penalties handed out and if the rule is being enforced correctly. If anyone is interested maybe they could help?

I would like to know of any instances when players have received a warning or loss of first serve and what the score was at the time.

How often players go over 25 seconds without being penalized.

The first question could be perhaps partly answered from memory and partly from noting new incidents

The second question could be answered by watching parts of any match and timing a few points. I've found this easy to do by using the timer that appears when you rewind or slow live TV as it shows the seconds but a watch or clock would work fine. According to the ATP rule book timing should start when the ball goes out of play and stop when the ball is struck for the next point. I have gathered some information but it's impossible to watch all matches so any information would be useful. 



NEW petition expressing concern about the inconsistent use of the time violation rule

Time limits for tennis players? Time for a response - a request to the ATP & ITF

We want to bring to your urgent attention the fact that growing numbers of tennis fans are raising serious concerns about the inconsistent application of the Time Violation Warning rule in ATP and ITF tournaments. This is beginning to spoil our enjoyment of this exceptional sport.

Umpires are currently issuing warnings randomly and arbitrarily, with some players who persistently go over the time limit not being penalised, and others regularly being given a warning.

In addition, it has been noted that the first warning of a match is suddenly given at a crucial point in a game - e.g. at break point - even when the time has been exceeded previously. We are concerned that this practice could significantly alter the outcome of a match.

We, the undersigned, urge you to find a way of regularising the application of the rule and respectfully request a formal response to the specific concerns highlighted in this petition.

Thank you.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/time-limits-for-tennis-players-time-for-a

On the question of whether taking additional time is "cheating" or just an annoyance, I think that's a fine line.

I play a lot of tennis and am a reasonable standard. Like most players, I like to play to a set rhythm. I don't generally do much between points except move from side to side. The one thing that really annoys me in matches is opponents taking an eternity between points. Even worse is opponents who suddenly take ages between points on big points.

Now, I'm assuming there are pro players out there with a similar mentality for whom the matches are far more important. Imagine you are in your 1st slam match, you play a brilliant point to get break point on your highly ranked opponent's serve and walk across to the other side pumped up for your chance to break. Your opponent isn't ready. It takes 40 seconds between points for him to get ready. Its completely out of kilter with the previous points. Instead of focussing on the point, you start wondering what is taking so long. He serves and you dump the return in the net.

Personally, I would be fuming and would definitely regard that as cheating - its breaking the rules to gain an advantage.

Born Slippy wrote:.

Personally, I would be fuming and would definitely regard that as cheating - its breaking the rules to gain an advantage.

That being the case much could be called cheating then. Swearing at the umpire may upset some people's rhythm and concentration, toilet breaks, medical time outs, racquet smashing etc etc. All of those may very well disrupt an opponent's mindset so can they be thrown into the cheating bracket?

Well, Yes, Yes, Yes, and.... Yes.

Swearing & Racquet smashing are punishable offences. Abuse of MTO's is much discussed as often unfair, and toilet breaks are controlled for the same reason.

So, all in all, yes.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Time they revisit the 25 sec time limit.  I see many players going over the time limit,it's a matter of how frequently each player does that during each match.

The umpires have to exercise discretion, so far Mohamed Layani and James Keatavong are the best two umpires, exercising discretion, and warning players privately before officially issuing TV warnings.  Bernardes is one of the worst, not flexible, not exercising discretion at all!  I mean, you think it's fun having to change shorts on the tennis court with so many pairs of eyes watching?  If I were Rafa, I would also get angry and do something about it!  What if it's Fed or Stan having to change shorts on court? Would they not get angry? I don't think so, and  I would not blame them!   It's time the players get to say something when the umpires are inflexible to the extent of being unreasonable; it's not solely about TV warnings but the embarrassment that Rafa had to suffer in that shorts change incidence.   Rafa wasn't complaining about the other umpires and was fine with them when they gave him TV warnings.

It's poor journalism that they made a big fuss out of this;  as if Rafa is a big bully!   If he is, he would have more umpires removed from his matches since they enforce the rule, why only Bernardes?  They talked as if Bernardes was a hero, for daring to give Rafa TV warnings, as if Rafa didn't get any warnings from the other Umpires!! Bernardes ought to be ashamed of his poor umpiring, for making a player having to change his shorts on court!   It's also terrible that so many people criticize Rafa for wanting Bernardes out of his matches,  would they do the same if it's their favorite player suffering the embarrassment on court?  

My opinion:  time to reconsider the 25 sec rule, set a reasonable time limit and enforce it strictly, with heavier penalty like point deduction if it's frequent offences during a match.  Start timing only after umpire call the score, and umpires have to exercise discretion and give allowances for unexpected incidences.

Rant over, not coming to this thread anymore,

Yeah, so basically a time wasters charter. Great stuff.

bogbrush wrote:Well, Yes, Yes, Yes, and.... Yes.

Swearing & Racquet smashing are punishable offences. Abuse of MTO's is much discussed as often unfair, and toilet breaks are controlled for the same reason.

So, all in all, yes.

And so like I said earlier it is totally up to the umpires to make the stand....as one. Nobody else can make it happen apart from them.

Oh hawkeye, stop with the "Nadal as victim" thing please.

YES I totally agree !!!

Can we also stop with the Nadal persecution please.. or at least until you come up with proof of of your accusations. After 17 pages of this thread I doubt that there is a member of 606 who does not know your  viewpoint
you have made .it irksomely clear to the point where your posts are in danger of going unread.


Now
Rather than what influence players bring to bear over Umpires Im more concerned as to how Umpires  apply the rules, and how they can influence the outcome of a match.

Everything here is in forum rules. We're having a civilised debate, we don't need telling what to write unless you're a mod and we're breaking rules.

You don't like, you read another thread. Simples.

bogbrush wrote:You don't like, you read another thread. Simples.

. you don't like HE's posts...do likewise

Personally, I would be fuming and would definitely regard that as cheating - its breaking the rules to gain an advantage.

Im not a women's tennis fan but how would you rate Venus Williams in that case who tosses the ball at least twice on every serve.
Sarapova's screaming ???
There are various forms of time wasting that can also be classed as cheating..This is not the only one.
As CC says its all in the hands of the Umpires.. they should be receiving the criticism as well, if not more, than the players.

War will start soon, hahaha topic of the year this one

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Well, Yes, Yes, Yes, and.... Yes.

Swearing & Racquet smashing are punishable offences. Abuse of MTO's is much discussed as often unfair, and toilet breaks are controlled for the same reason.

So, all in all, yes.

And so like I said earlier it is totally up to the umpires to make the stand....as one. Nobody else can make it happen apart from them.

Not at all.

At some stage players have to take responsibility of their actions on court. It's too easy to just blame the umpires. Yes umpires should enforce the rules, but at the same token players have a responsibility to follow the rules. Persistent offenders of rule breaking should be punished. If umpires are not getting the backing from above, it's going to make it hard for them to enforce rules. To me umpires for any rule break should speak with the player first and just caution them. If they still do it, punish them.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Well, Yes, Yes, Yes, and.... Yes.

Swearing & Racquet smashing are punishable offences. Abuse of MTO's is much discussed as often unfair, and toilet breaks are controlled for the same reason.

So, all in all, yes.

And so like I said earlier it is totally up to the umpires to make the stand....as one. Nobody else can make it happen apart from them.

Not at all.

At some stage players have to take responsibility of their actions on court. It's too easy to just blame the umpires. Yes umpires should enforce the rules, but at the same token players have a responsibility to follow the rules. Persistent offenders of rule breaking should be punished. If umpires are not getting the backing from above, it's going to make it hard for them to enforce rules. To me umpires for any rule break should speak with the player first and just caution them. If they still do it, punish them.

No the umpires have the power to legislate and MAKE players adhere to the rule with regards time. Until they all take a stand things will continue as is the way. It is the same in football - you are not going to stop a player feigning injury to waste time unless refs start booking every one and that just will not happen.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

bogbrush wrote:You don't like, you read another thread. Simples.

. you don't like HE's posts...do likewise

I love them, they're Gold.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Well, Yes, Yes, Yes, and.... Yes.

Swearing & Racquet smashing are punishable offences. Abuse of MTO's is much discussed as often unfair, and toilet breaks are controlled for the same reason.

So, all in all, yes.

And so like I said earlier it is totally up to the umpires to make the stand....as one. Nobody else can make it happen apart from them.

Not at all.

At some stage players have to take responsibility of their actions on court. It's too easy to just blame the umpires. Yes umpires should enforce the rules, but at the same token players have a responsibility to follow the rules. Persistent offenders of rule breaking should be punished. If umpires are not getting the backing from above, it's going to make it hard for them to enforce rules. To me umpires for any rule break should speak with the player first and just caution them. If they still do it, punish them.

No the umpires have the power to legislate and MAKE players adhere to the rule with regards time. Until they all take a stand things will continue as is the way. It is the same in football - you are not going to stop a player feigning injury to waste time unless refs start booking every one and that just will not happen.

Bit tricky when you find yourself barred from matches when you do.

You seeing the connection yet?

Just to add that what I mean is that players are not going to change unless forced to and the only way of forcing that change is to enforce the rules to every single time any player oversteps the time limit.

Haddie-nuff wrote:Personally, I would be fuming and would definitely regard that as cheating - its breaking the rules to gain an advantage.

Im not a women's tennis fan but how would you rate Venus Williams in that case who tosses the ball at least twice on every serve.
Sarapova's screaming ???
There are various forms of time wasting that can also be classed as cheating..This is not the only one.
As CC says its all in the hands of the Umpires.. they should be receiving the criticism as well, if not more, than the players.

Oh yes, players rule breaking is definitely the fault of the Umpires. Especially when they enforce the rules. Then it's so much their fault they can't officiate that players matches any more. Which means they're now doing nothing to stop him in which case they're especially culpable.

In Rafaland.

bogbrush wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Personally, I would be fuming and would definitely regard that as cheating - its breaking the rules to gain an advantage.

Im not a women's tennis fan but how would you rate Venus Williams in that case who tosses the ball at least twice on every serve.
Sarapova's screaming ???
There are various forms of time wasting that can also be classed as cheating..This is not the only one.
As CC says its all in the hands of the Umpires.. they should be receiving the criticism as well, if not more, than the players.

Oh yes, players rule breaking is definitely the fault of the Umpires. Especially when they enforce the rules. Then it's so much their fault they can't officiate that players matches any more. Which means they're now doing nothing to stop him in which case they're especially culpable.

In Rafaland.

You can look at it another way though. If (a big if I know) all umpires had a Spartacus moment and all stand as one against time violations and make it a strong bond and umpire to the same standards then one umpire cannot be singled out for issuing time violations if you see what I mean.

I think a concern that appears to be overlooked here is that Umpires, have the final word in any match, whether the player is blameless or otherwise, and can influence the outcome of any match. "Discretion" is banded about.. but what does that mean exactly.?. one Umpire's discretion is not the same as another's. There has to be some criteria and unless that is applied ACROSS THE BOARD..it, is not only not fair, but more importantly  
could be viewed as suspect. I believe that the players would have a lot more respect for the rules if the ones they know they break, timewasting, swearing, racket smashing, abuse of ball girls/boys and others were going to receive a penalty.
There are of course legitimate situations where leniency should be expected from Umpires, but I can think of very few.
Umpires are not blameless here if they choose to be selective with their "discretion" it could be viewed with suspicion.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Well, Yes, Yes, Yes, and.... Yes.

Swearing & Racquet smashing are punishable offences. Abuse of MTO's is much discussed as often unfair, and toilet breaks are controlled for the same reason.

So, all in all, yes.

And so like I said earlier it is totally up to the umpires to make the stand....as one. Nobody else can make it happen apart from them.

Not at all.

At some stage players have to take responsibility of their actions on court. It's too easy to just blame the umpires. Yes umpires should enforce the rules, but at the same token players have a responsibility to follow the rules. Persistent offenders of rule breaking should be punished. If umpires are not getting the backing from above, it's going to make it hard for them to enforce rules. To me umpires for any rule break should speak with the player first and just caution them. If they still do it, punish them.

No the umpires have the power to legislate and MAKE players adhere to the rule with regards time. Until they all take a stand things will continue as is the way. It is the same in football - you are not going to stop a player feigning injury to waste time unless refs start booking every one and that just will not happen.

Or equally the ATP/ITF could hand out tougher punishments on rule breaking.

Same with any sport. Give the officials some teeth.

Oh yes, players rule breaking is definitely the fault of the Umpires. Especially when they enforce the rules. Then it's so much their fault they can't officiate that players matches any more. Which means they're now doing nothing to stop him in which case they're especially culpable.

In Rafaland.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Ill leave you in the playground.

legendkillarV2 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Well, Yes, Yes, Yes, and.... Yes.

Swearing & Racquet smashing are punishable offences. Abuse of MTO's is much discussed as often unfair, and toilet breaks are controlled for the same reason.

So, all in all, yes.

And so like I said earlier it is totally up to the umpires to make the stand....as one. Nobody else can make it happen apart from them.

Not at all.

At some stage players have to take responsibility of their actions on court. It's too easy to just blame the umpires. Yes umpires should enforce the rules, but at the same token players have a responsibility to follow the rules. Persistent offenders of rule breaking should be punished. If umpires are not getting the backing from above, it's going to make it hard for them to enforce rules. To me umpires for any rule break should speak with the player first and just caution them. If they still do it, punish them.

No the umpires have the power to legislate and MAKE players adhere to the rule with regards time. Until they all take a stand things will continue as is the way. It is the same in football - you are not going to stop a player feigning injury to waste time unless refs start booking every one and that just will not happen.

Or equally the ATP/ITF could hand out tougher punishments on rule breaking.

Same with any sport. Give the officials some teeth.

Well that or perhaps they issue warnings to umpires and give them a strict mandate to stick to or warn them they will not officiate in big matches say QF's and upwards.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:Well, Yes, Yes, Yes, and.... Yes.

Swearing & Racquet smashing are punishable offences. Abuse of MTO's is much discussed as often unfair, and toilet breaks are controlled for the same reason.

So, all in all, yes.

And so like I said earlier it is totally up to the umpires to make the stand....as one. Nobody else can make it happen apart from them.

Not at all.

At some stage players have to take responsibility of their actions on court. It's too easy to just blame the umpires. Yes umpires should enforce the rules, but at the same token players have a responsibility to follow the rules. Persistent offenders of rule breaking should be punished. If umpires are not getting the backing from above, it's going to make it hard for them to enforce rules. To me umpires for any rule break should speak with the player first and just caution them. If they still do it, punish them.

No the umpires have the power to legislate and MAKE players adhere to the rule with regards time. Until they all take a stand things will continue as is the way. It is the same in football - you are not going to stop a player feigning injury to waste time unless refs start booking every one and that just will not happen.

Or equally the ATP/ITF could hand out tougher punishments on rule breaking.

Same with any sport. Give the officials some teeth.

Well that or perhaps they issue warnings to umpires and give them a strict mandate to stick to or warn them they will not officiate in big matches say QF's and upwards.

Yes that really helps them doesn't it

Can I suggest the same apply to players if they challenge an umpires decision or enforcement of a rule that they be removed from their next match?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Personally, I would be fuming and would definitely regard that as cheating - its breaking the rules to gain an advantage.

Im not a women's tennis fan but how would you rate Venus Williams in that case who tosses the ball at least twice on every serve.
Sarapova's screaming ???
There are various forms of time wasting that can also be classed as cheating..This is not the only one.
As CC says its all in the hands of the Umpires.. they should be receiving the criticism as well, if not more, than the players.

Oh yes, players rule breaking is definitely the fault of the Umpires. Especially when they enforce the rules. Then it's so much their fault they can't officiate that players matches any more. Which means they're now doing nothing to stop him in which case they're especially culpable.

In Rafaland.

You can look at it another way though. If (a big if I know) all umpires had a Spartacus moment and all stand as one against time violations and make it a strong bond and umpire to the same standards then one umpire cannot be singled out for issuing time violations if you see what I mean.

Right, so it's the Umpires responsibility to make a big Union-style thing and stand together to force players to obey the rules? The idea that all players (and especially leading ones) would actually just play to the rules and stop whining like girls when they get pinged is out of the question?

Are you being serious?

Completely inverted thinking.

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Personally, I would be fuming and would definitely regard that as cheating - its breaking the rules to gain an advantage.

Im not a women's tennis fan but how would you rate Venus Williams in that case who tosses the ball at least twice on every serve.
Sarapova's screaming ???
There are various forms of time wasting that can also be classed as cheating..This is not the only one.
As CC says its all in the hands of the Umpires.. they should be receiving the criticism as well, if not more, than the players.

Oh yes, players rule breaking is definitely the fault of the Umpires. Especially when they enforce the rules. Then it's so much their fault they can't officiate that players matches any more. Which means they're now doing nothing to stop him in which case they're especially culpable.

In Rafaland.

You can look at it another way though. If (a big if I know) all umpires had a Spartacus moment and all stand as one against time violations and make it a strong bond and umpire to the same standards then one umpire cannot be singled out for issuing time violations if you see what I mean.

Right, so it's the Umpires responsibility to make a big Union-style thing and stand together to force players to obey the rules? The idea that all players (and especially leading ones) would actually just play to the rules and stop whining like girls when they get pinged is out of the question?

Are you being serious?

Jeez are you naive? Players in any sport are not going to do anything that they don't have to. That goes across the board be it ball sports, team sports, martial arts sports or anything. If umpires (all of them) cracked down on time violations then the problem would quickly be solved and that would be against any player even Nishikori for his 34 seconds yesterday.

As long as the ATP don't start getting tough on this nothing will happen. To expect players to all of a sudden start sticking to a time allowed between points is akin to expecting footballers all of a sudden to stop feigning injuries to run down the clock - in short it won't happen. It is like expecting drink driving rates to fall if a legal limit law had not been enforced. It isn't going to happen.

We will have to believe that Football players will do a selfie, and hand themselves a red card next.. it gets more hilarious by the minute.

I guess this is why they all vote SNP.

Right we did ask for respect between posters here. We've also tried multiple times to turn this into a wider debate, only for this same business to pull it back, move on please

Players, even roger federer bend the toilet break and other rules to get an edge, they're winners after all.  Only an eternal optimist would expect players to self police themselves, that's an umpires job. Now quit with the snark between each other

temporary21 wrote:Players, even roger federer bend the toilet break and other rules to get an edge, they're winners after all.  Only an eternal optimist would expect players to self police themselves, that's an umpires job. Now quit with the snark between each other

Yet, you presumably would expect players not to take PEDs and would regard them as cheats even if they were not caught? Raonic got roundly criticised when he tried to get away with a double bounce. Yes its the umpires' job to enforce the rules but that doesn't stop the players from being criticised if they wilfully don't comply with them.

Youre describing two VERY different tiers of bending the rules, a comparison of PED taking to time between points or raquet breaking will never look anything but silly to me.

Its fine to criticise of course, but proportionally so, and with consistency,. Considering hes not the only offender, and considering things on balance, dont you think this is going a bit far? Roger in a Shanghai final, with Murray serving for the match, took deliberate time to talk to the umpire so the rain would get heavier, and they would have to stop to try and halt Murrays momentum. Could have made a big deal about it, but really, its not worth it

temporary21 wrote:Players, even roger federer bend the toilet break and other rules to get an edge, they're winners after all.  Only an eternal optimist would expect players to self police themselves, that's an umpires job. Now quit with the snark between each other

Is it optimistic to hope they won't go off and get the Umpire prevented from officiating in future matches?

I agree ..no comparison.

I still say that a player, ANY player, will bend the rules if they think they are going to get away with it.. the ONUS is upon the Umpires to apply those rules strictly and fairly. ,the problem is it depends on the Umpire as it stands at present because of Umpires Discretion... but what is UMPIRE'S DISCRETION... how long is a piece of string??

Trying to pull this discussion back from the dead.. whilst there are others continuously giving their grievances an airing at every comment..
Jeeze.. pull the curtain down somebody

Julius, Lf Im calling a revote on putting this thread into a sticky, its not really going anywhere and the rest can debate it there.

temporary21 wrote:Julius, Lf Im calling a revote on putting this thread into a sticky, its not really going anywhere and the rest can debate it there.

I'm Ok with that - the next question is - how do we do that?

JuliusHMarx wrote:

temporary21 wrote:Julius, Lf Im calling a revote on putting this thread into a sticky, its not really going anywhere and the rest can debate it there.

I'm Ok with that - the next question is - how do we do that?

As an admin im pretty sure you can make a sticky and split the thing cant you?

Or better yet lock it?

No-one is actually going to bother with consistent research. It will die like the GOAT thread.

legendkillarV2 wrote:Or better yet lock it?

No-one is actually going to bother with consistent research. It will die like the GOAT thread.

Agreed...

Silver wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Or better yet lock it?

No-one is actually going to bother with consistent research. It will die like the GOAT thread.

Agreed...

x2

If it brings an end to the dissembling on the time violation issue I'm all for that.

Shame we never got to address the issues that the original thread was intended to do .. but not totally unexpected

Lock the damn thing!

A few posters with an angle on this have contributed to this threads downfall, we cant move it forward, despite many repeated attempts, so it goes here to die or whatever.

Hmm, Murray just got a TV against Sousa at 3-4 0-30. Pretty sure that qualifies as a crucial point. Not sure where that leaves HE's Nadal victimisation theory. I would suggest two possibilities:

1. The ATP are monitoring v2 and, now that their dastardly anti-Nadal plot has been rumbled, are desperately trying to scotch the rumours by instructing umpires to go on an immediate TV frenzy.

2. HE's theory is a poorly researched load of claptrap, without any foundation whatsoever.

I'll let you decide which is most plausible.....

And another one against Murray at 1-2 deuce. It's a second TV, so he's docked a first serve. Murray really should be beating Sousa comfortably, so perhaps HE could argue that no points are that crucial in this match.....

What about consistency then auto? Are you happy with the rule as long as it disproves HE's theory?

Aut0Gr4ph wrote:Hmm, Murray just got a TV against Sousa at 3-4 0-30. Pretty sure that qualifies as a crucial point. Not sure where that leaves HE's Nadal victimisation theory. I would suggest two possibilities:

1. The ATP are monitoring v2 and, now that their dastardly anti-Nadal plot has been rumbled, are desperately trying to scotch the rumours by instructing umpires to go on an immediate TV frenzy.

2. HE's theory is a poorly researched load of claptrap, without any foundation whatsoever.

I'll let you decide which is most plausible.....

Murray's TVs today reconfirms the fact that Nadal was never victimised by the ATP. So much for a ridiculous "theory" that Nadal was targeted. He never was. There is no excuse to fabricate false claims. 

Indeed.

And Murray appears to have shown how to handle it like a man and not whine on about how he doesn't want him to Umpire him any more.