Pacific Islanders V Club conflict

First topic message reminder :

Really really depressing that this old issue has not been resolved. Surely our great game of rugby should be able to ensure that all countries are able to select their best players without individual clubs putting financial pressure on players to not play? Does this only apply to Samoa, Fiji and Tonga and other small countries? The RWC makes enough money to ensure that the pooer countries should be able to look after their own players. Absolute disgrace and if true then Toulouse and any other club found guilty of pressuring players like this should face severe penalties....big fines or even excluded from European competition for a season.

From the Telegrapgh.

Leading European clubs are pres­surising their Pacific Island players to retire from international rugby four months out from the World Cup, it has been claimed.

Dan Leo, the London Irish lock, believes that Samoa could lose up to a third of their squad with clubs offering incentivised contracts to players who turn their backs on their countries. Those who opt to represent Samoa, Fiji or Tonga in the World Cup potentially face losing 40 per cent of their salaries. Leo, 32, is speaking from personal experience.

“There’s no hints or beating around the bush, they come out and say ‘stop playing for your country’.”

Leo, who is leaving Irish at the end of the season, said. “It is standard practice. I have not made a decision about whether I will be at the World Cup because I am struggling to find a club that will pay me during the tournament. If I want to play professionally next year, I may have to forfeit ­playing at the World Cup.”

Leo’s case is not unique. He says Census Johnston, the tighthead prop, recently signed a new contract with Toulouse on the condition that he retire from international duty. A lot more players are in the same boat according to Leo, who led the Samoa players’ protests against their own union last November.

Johnston recently signed new contract with Toulouse on condition he retire from international duty

“Almost every Pacific Island player I have spoken to has had pressure put on them to retire [from international rugby],” Leo said. “If everyone could speak as openly as I do, they would say the same thing. Everyone is getting those pressures put on them. When they are negotiating a deal with the clubs, they will say ‘we will give you this bit more if you don’t play for your country’.

“Census is our most experienced player and by far our best tighthead. So if you take out a player like him, Paul Williams and myself, who are three guys coming out of contract, that’s a massive leadership drain on the squad. How do you replace that?

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“That’s a very real thing for our management to deal with, hence they have named a 58-man training squad for the World Cup. Out of those 58, 12 or 13 will have their contracts coming up. If they decide to stay at their clubs then we lose a third of our [World Cup] squad.”

World Rugby’s Regulation Nine states that: “The future development and extension of the sport at all levels and throughout the world would be threatened if a Union was not able to select and have available the players it requires.”

Clubs would argue that they have done nothing wrong as retiring players are making an individual decision, but it would certainly seem in contravention of World Rugby’s demand of “compliance with not only the letter of the regulation, but also its spirit”.

Premiership clubs will be compensated for the loss of their England players during the World Cup, but not for their foreign internationals. Leo has a measure of sympathy for them and says it’s the responsibility of World Rugby to find a solution.

“I can see it from the clubs’ point of view that they don’t want to be paying players who aren’t going to be around but World Rugby will be making a huge amount of money from the World Cup so they should be stepping in there to secure the release from the clubs.”

A World Rugby spokesman said: “While it would be inappropriate to comment on any allegations without possession of the facts, World Rugby works tirelessly with its unions to ensure that the spirit of regulation nine and the integrity of the international game is preserved.”

The news comes just as Samoa’s players were making real progress in a long-running struggle with their own union having threatened to boycott their match against England last November. The union’s chief executive and head of performance have been replaced and a collective bargaining agreement, which would guarantee minimum levels of pay and facilities, is close to being formalised. At the previous World Cup, Samoa turned up to training sessions without practice balls.

“For so long, it has been about ­sorting out our own backyard. No one was going to take us seriously until we did that,” Leo said. “But we are fighting this battle against our own union and we don’t have the resources to fight against the clubs as well.”

HammerofThunor wrote:

Fanster wrote: How does a team draw 16-16 with Wales then get beat 66-0 12 months later?

That's a pretty good example of the difference between the Welsh 1st team and the Welsh 2nd team at those points.

How does a team go from winning one 6 nations game to a grand slam a year later?

That is the Welsh way.. 

It is endlessly fascinating how much morale and where players heads are at has an impact on how they play. I think the best game for that is Cricket (see England yesterday) but there are similar effects on all sports. I do think that, for instance, a great deal of the All Blacks dominance is down to a belief that they always will win. They do have some exceptional sportsmen but I don't believe that their quality is enough alone to explain their winning record.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Fanster wrote:I'm not sure which instance your talking about, I was talking about Habana, Botha and Lobbe (sorry) who were being demanded to return to France despite being mid tournament at the Rugby Cahmpionship (What is that called now? too many Champions in too many tournaments).

That was a hissy fit and reaction from a few injuries wasn't it?

The international window for the RC has gaps in it (same as the 6 nations).  Unions have no rights to players during these gaps, unless they have an agreement with the players' clubs.

Blame the IRB (i.e. the unions) for having gaps in the windows.

Thanks for bringing that up, I didn't know the RC had gaps in the international window for players, I new the schedule was distorted due to travel etc

Three France based players pressured to withdraw from Tongan squad:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/277340/sport-tonga-rugby-coach-forced-to-change-squad

He should file a report with IRB .

It also reads as though it based on a pay to play contract. And since they get paid more for paying for their club than their country they've decided to play for their club. You're not allowed to use financial incentives to discourage playing for your country but how common are paid per game contracts?

That's not all they have to deal with

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2510075-why-rugby-world-cup-fixtures-are-not-fair-game-on-the-minnows

Fiji, a team with a frightening collection of talent, get five days between playing England and Australia, which doesn’t seem an awful lot for a nation with 20 per cent of the registered rugby playing population of England and less than a third that of Australia, according to World Rugby player numbers.

It goes on: Tonga have a whopping 10-day break between fixtures with Georgia and Namibia but then have to play Argentina and New Zealand in the space of five.

maestegmafia wrote:That's not all they have to deal with

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/2510075-why-rugby-world-cup-fixtures-are-not-fair-game-on-the-minnows

Fiji, a team with a frightening collection of talent, get five days between playing England and Australia, which doesn’t seem an awful lot for a nation with 20 per cent of the registered rugby playing population of England and less than a third that of Australia, according to World Rugby player numbers.

It goes on: Tonga have a whopping 10-day break between fixtures with Georgia and Namibia but then have to play Argentina and New Zealand in the space of five.

Agreed. I think I pointed it out when the draw came out. Hope the minor nations put their energies into beating Wales, Scotland and France in particular, even if it means throwing other games. No to the dodgy WC allocation and draw, no to inequitable selection opportunities for the powerful, and no to nations who can't ensure players are released. Love the Welsh, Scots, French fans and their teams, but can't think of a better way to send a message to the World Rugby.

Noone bats an eyelid when it happens with Strettle of course.

Gooseberry wrote:Noone bats an eyelid when it happens with Strettle of course.

Very good

Black

I disagree about targetting certain games, thats what the organisers want, they want a big shock and well 1 or 2 thrown games + the shock result gives the RWC what it wants...

If they really want to make a statement they throw every group game, they essentially refuse to participate until they are allowed to compete!!!

Strettle is an interesting point though, is there any reason for us to think he just didn't feel like he was going to make the squad, and decided to take the summer to settle his family? Or was there a hint of financial pressure?

Who was the other tier 1 nation player who decided not to play the RWC too??! Is it Ben Mowan?

It's not just PI players either, Uraguays only pro player has made himself unavailable (Ortega).

With the Australian press boycotting the event (Is that still the case), this RWC is having a lot of stumbling blocks leading up to it!

I find players making themselves unavailable from tier 1 nations extremely worrying!!!

To be fair, for all his heroics in the AP Strettle was always only going to be an outside bet to make the final squad.

Things might have been different had he been a guaranteed starter (in which case he would have been less likely to take the euro in the first place)

Fanster wrote:Black

I disagree about targetting certain games, thats what the organisers want, they want a big shock and well 1 or 2 thrown games + the shock result gives the RWC what it wants...

If they really want to make a statement they throw every group game, they essentially refuse to participate until they are allowed to compete!!!

Strettle is an interesting point though, is there any reason for us to think he just didn't feel like he was going to make the squad, and decided to take the summer to settle his family? Or was there a hint of financial pressure?

Who was the other tier 1 nation player who decided not to play the RWC too??! Is it Ben Mowan?

It's not just PI players either, Uraguays only pro player has made himself unavailable (Ortega).

With the Australian press boycotting the event (Is that still the case), this RWC is having a lot of stumbling blocks leading up to it!

I find players making themselves unavailable from tier 1 nations extremely worrying!!!

I'm pretty sure Ortega plays for a French club too.

Castres

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/uruguay/11699105/Uruguays-Rodrigo-Capo-Ortega-mysteriously-retires-from-international-rugby.html

Something smells fishy, and I'm not talking about the links strewn throughout the text that is seemingly unrelated to the ethos of the article!

Flip Van Der Merwe is now unavailable too now, for undisclosed reasons ahead of his move to France...

Is Etzebeth still Injured? Will Matfield have to start?

‘There will be consequences’ – Toulouse unhappy at Johnston’s Samoa call up

http://www.the42.ie/cenus-johnston-toulouse-2203242-Jul2015/

Perhaps this is an opportunity for World Rugby to show some leadership, and make it conditional on clubs not being able to "Contract out" players from playing test rugby for their Country.

If the players are good enough the clubs will fall into line,because if they dont, then some other club will sign the player.

It's all part of the continuing plan to knock International Rugby onto its knees.  Every card that's played is well thought-through in advance.  'Anger' of clubs is manufactured - it's gleeful opportunism crafting for itself even more 'power' to decide.  Club rugby wants primacy.  International is a competitor not a partner.  

Some turkeys did vote for Christmas though so my sympathies for those who might fear Tier 2 players playing in future World Cups for Tier 1 nations is limited.

A lot of those turkeys are still unaware they are turkeys though, It'll be a little while yet, and will be too late before they realise!

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Perhaps this is an opportunity for World Rugby to show some leadership, and make it conditional on clubs not being able to "Contract out" players from playing test rugby for their Country.

If the players are good enough the clubs will fall into line,because if they dont, then some other club will sign the player.

It won't work. What'll happen is the value of those players will drop so they'll end up with less pay. And thats what it boils down to. Its up to the players whether they want money or play international rugby.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:‘There will be consequences’ – Toulouse unhappy at Johnston’s Samoa call up

http://www.the42.ie/cenus-johnston-toulouse-2203242-Jul2015/

I hope Census sticks up two fingers to them and decides to go the RWC with Samoa, he's still got it. Afterwards he won't be short of option, there'd be a number of teams in Europe and Japan...maybe even in SA, Aus or NZ that would want his signature!

The Saint wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:‘There will be consequences’ – Toulouse unhappy at Johnston’s Samoa call up

http://www.the42.ie/cenus-johnston-toulouse-2203242-Jul2015/

I hope Census sticks up two fingers to them and decides to go the RWC with Samoa, he's still got it. Afterwards he won't be short of option, there'd be a number of teams in Europe and Japan...maybe even in SA, Aus or NZ that would want his signature!

Ye because if theres one thing club owners love, it's players who back out of agreements and show preference to International rugby.

Johnstone would be welcomed at a lot of second tier club, or super franchises, but the very best, the clubs who could pay him a huge sum would look elsewhere.

I'm not saying it's right, I hate that fact, but it's what would happen.

There's only a few quotes there and it's not entirely clear whether he means the consequences to the team given his absence. Similar story has come out with Wasps and Smith.

On the Johnston case he is 34 and therefore you could argue he is around the age when players start to retire from international rugby anyway. You could also understand their point of they've signed a player to play for them on the understanding he'd always be available to play. However the club v country argument is threatening to ruin the integrity of the international game, if the World Cup is a way of finding out which country has the best rugby players and the best rugby team then as soon as players are unavailable for selection it makes the tournament void, the way around it would be to strike the emerging French and, to a far lesser extent, English "super clubs" Where it would hurt them the most and that's in the pocket. Perhaps it should be a system whereby if a country selects a player and the player doesn't turn up, if not officially retired or injured, then the club should have to compensate the union that selected them to the tune of the wages that player was on. So if they want to pay Census Johnston massive amounts to not play international rugby then they should have to pay the same amount to the Samoan Rugby Union during the international window, conversely if they do let them go then World Rugby should pay the clubs on behalf of the poorer nations. In fact, and this would never happen I know but perhaps it's time for a kind of tax on unions, the home nations in Britain tend to rake in massive profits primarily because in the Autumn they neglect the minnows or play token fixtures against them, and furthermore very rarely ever play in the Pacific Islands, if the Home Nations continue to churn out multi-million pound profits then if they were forced to pay 5-10% of their profits into a compensation fund for the Pacific Island players, now of course this would never happen because why pay to make your opponent stronger but spreading the game has to go wider than a one off fixture in winter in the Northern Hemisphere, I'm sure it's more of a wrench for the Tongan players to go to Kilmarnock in November than it is for Scottish players to go to the Pacific Islands in July. Perhaps we should start forcing the clubs to "compensate" the Unions for the years their players spent in their home countries playing rugby anyway.

It isn't just restricted to the lesser nations, in his autobiography Lewis Moody joined Bath primarily because the Leicester management strongly, from memory, hinted he'd get a lesser contract or even not one at all if he didn't reitre from internationals.

Fanster wrote:

The Saint wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:‘There will be consequences’ – Toulouse unhappy at Johnston’s Samoa call up

http://www.the42.ie/cenus-johnston-toulouse-2203242-Jul2015/

I hope Census sticks up two fingers to them and decides to go the RWC with Samoa, he's still got it. Afterwards he won't be short of option, there'd be a number of teams in Europe and Japan...maybe even in SA, Aus or NZ that would want his signature!

Ye because if theres one thing club owners love, it's players who back out of agreements and show preference to International rugby.

Johnstone would be welcomed at a lot of second tier club, or super franchises, but the very best, the clubs who could pay him a huge sum would look elsewhere.

I'm not saying it's right, I hate that fact, but it's what would happen.

Jeez you don't watch rugby much do you. Good TH props are always in high demand. A player of Johnstone's calibre would be offered another opportunity (likely short-term) in France as the demand and money is there. How else would you explain Castro still being employed...

*EDIT - why are you opening with that statement and then basically agreeing with what I said? Pointless comments.

The easiest way of improving things would be to force clubs to suspend meaningful fixtures during the championships. There would still be the concern of getting players hurt while out of their control, but it might reduce some of the demand.