Supreme Court vote 5-4 in favour of gay marriage in USA

First topic message reminder :

Long overdue in the USA and with my well known political view points as you might expect i'm fully in favour of this.

No doubt Fox News will say God will seek revenge for this descision taken by the Supreme Court

TopHat24/7 wrote:

kingraf wrote:You catholic then, Toppy.

(e.g. contraception).

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Christianity focuses on the New Testament, Duty.

The Jews make a much bigger song n dance about the OT.

NT has all Jesus' teachings, death & rebirth etc.  All the focal points of Christianity.

OT just has the funny stories like Noah (who f*cked his son, according to the OT, btw), burning bushes, colourful coats etc.  Only the 10 commandments have much relevance to Christianity.

True, but the foundation of Christianity does originate from the Old Testament (10 commandments as you point out), and there are numerous Christians who take teachings from the Old Testament as gospel.

I think you are very confused about Christianity. Not defending it, per se, but you are pontificating about something you clearly know very little about.

(FWIW, I'm raised Catholic as the son of a Cathloic primary school headteacher and, before Uni, had never been educated outside of RC schools).

Not sure what you're getting at, in truth. The foundation of the Abrahamic religions stems from the Old Testament, and I think 45% of Americans believe in the teachings of Genesis - that the world was created, and that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.

As I say, you clearly don't know what you're talking about and are just spouting off based on some cobbled together internet research. Wikipedia isn't always the answer.....

Take it from someone who had 15 years of Christian/Catholic education and went to church weekly till the age of 16.

kingraf wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

kingraf wrote:You catholic then, Toppy.

(e.g. contraception).

God knows how many deaths the church is responsible for in your neck of the woods based on that policy, sadly.

To be fair, the Church and Africa have always made rather strange bedfellows. Although I'm not sure how much is the Catholic Church, and how much is the Anglican/Protestant Church.

My girlfriend's parents are also quite anti contraception, but I assume their desires to get their child to heaven are superseded by the fears of having a mixed grand baby!!

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Christianity focuses on the New Testament, Duty.

The Jews make a much bigger song n dance about the OT.

NT has all Jesus' teachings, death & rebirth etc.  All the focal points of Christianity.

OT just has the funny stories like Noah (who f*cked his son, according to the OT, btw), burning bushes, colourful coats etc.  Only the 10 commandments have much relevance to Christianity.

True, but the foundation of Christianity does originate from the Old Testament (10 commandments as you point out), and there are numerous Christians who take teachings from the Old Testament as gospel.

I think you are very confused about Christianity. Not defending it, per se, but you are pontificating about something you clearly know very little about.

(FWIW, I'm raised Catholic as the son of a Cathloic primary school headteacher and, before Uni, had never been educated outside of RC schools).

Not sure what you're getting at, in truth. The foundation of the Abrahamic religions stems from the Old Testament, and I think 45% of Americans believe in the teachings of Genesis - that the world was created, and that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.

As I say, you clearly don't know what you're talking about and are just spouting off based on some cobbled together internet research.  Wikipedia isn't always the answer.....

Take it from someone who had 15 years of Christian/Catholic education and went to church weekly till the age of 16.

Are you saying the foundation of the Abrahamic religions isn't from the Old Testament?

Or that 45% of Americans don't believe in the teachings of Genesis? (the below link states 40% of Americans believe in creationism, and that it happened less than 10,000 years ago; my original 45% figure was from a Richard Dawkins book with the survey being correctly sourced)

http://www.livescience.com/46123-many-americans-creationists.html

45% of Americans being morons doesn't define a religion.

How many years of Christian education do you have under your belt?

My guessing is none. And without any you can't tell me how Christianity is taught and what it is based on.

I went to a devoutly catholic prep school (my old man taught there). As a 'non-catholic' we had to read the scriptures (old testament) whilst the duck eggs read the new testament. Don't know what that means but....

Whilst I slated Wikipedia before, this is the opening para to its write up on the NT:

The New Testament is the second major part of the Christian biblical canon, the first part being the Old Testament, which is based on the Hebrew Bible. The Greek New Testament discusses the teachings and person of Jesus, as well as events in first-century Christianity. Although Christians hold different views from Jews about the Hebrew scriptures of the Old Testament, Christians regard both the Old and New Testaments together as sacred scripture. The New Testament (in whole or in part) has frequently accompanied the spread of Christianity around the world. It reflects and serves as a source for Christian theology and morality. Both extended readings and phrases directly from the New Testament are also incorporated (along with readings from the Old Testament) into the various Christian liturgies. The New Testament has influenced religious, philosophical, and political movements in Christendom, and left an indelible mark on its literature, art, and music.

Key passages highlighted in bold.

Yes the OT is part of Christianity, but not in any real practical sense, it is the NT that provides the basis of Christian practice & teachings.

seanmichaels wrote:I went to a devoutly catholic prep school (my old man taught there). As a 'non-catholic' we had to read the scriptures (old testament) whilst the duck eggs read the new testament. Don't know what that means but....

More fire & brimstone in the OT, the RCs probably keen to ensure you get both barrels of that sh!t, whereas the regulars didn't need it as they're already fully 'signed up'.

TopHat24/7 wrote:45% of Americans being morons doesn't define a religion.

How many years of Christian education do you have under your belt?

My guessing is none. And without any you can't tell me how Christianity is taught and what it is based on.

About six. Although, when I went to secondary school, the teaching generally shifted to the other monotheistic religions as well as Buddhism.

So in short, you have little experience and essentially don't know what you're talking about beyond little internet boobie-bits.

Don't get ratty with each other fellas. This has been a good discussion so far and there's no need for it getting out of hand.

The problem is Duty is that your seeing a lot of the fire and brimstone types on the news and demonstrating because that's what's controversial. I would hazard a guess and say that a lot of parish's (esp in UK) aren't as bothered as you may think. (I know mine isn't.)

(For example, you can't judge every religious person on the westboro church.)

I personally think that religion is a good thing if taught properly. It should be about respect and love for your neighbour and treating people the way you want to be treated (and before someone goes mad, you don't necessarily need religion for that too)

Oh I don't know what TopHat is getting irritated at, in truth. I've merely said the Old Testament is the foundation of the Abrahamic religions (true), and that numerous Christians still follow the Old Testament, specifically Genesis (I think 40% qualifies as numerous).

As I've also said, I don't think anywhere near a majority of Christians are homophobic, I am merely saying the Holy Bible is homophobic (Leviticus and Corinthians, I think), with homosexuality being labelled as a clear sin.

I think sinners get chucked in the hell-fire.

"For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. [...] ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

And that's in the New Testament.

Duty281 wrote:Oh I don't know what TopHat is getting irritated at, in truth. I've merely said the Old Testament is the foundation of the Abrahamic religions (true), and that numerous Christians still follow the Old Testament, specifically Genesis (I think 40% qualifies as numerous).

As I've also said, I don't think anywhere near a majority of Christians are homophobic, I am merely saying the Holy Bible is homophobic (Leviticus and Corinthians, I think), with homosexuality being labelled as a clear sin.

I think sinners get chucked in the hell-fire.

"For if we wilfully persist in sin after having received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgement, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. [...] ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay.’ And again, ‘The Lord will judge his people.’ It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

And that's in the New Testament.

No, 40% don't. Stop being as stupid as the idiots that do. 40% of AMERICANS does not constitute the majority of a global religion and, even then, all because they're dumb creationishts, I bet they couldn't name much else about their Christian way of life that's determined by passages in the OT.

The NT provides the guidance for how Christians live their lives.

Levictus is the main anti-gay stuff and is OT. OT is where all the most ridiculous stories and general rubbish is located.

The most ridiculous story of the whole thing is the ludicrous crucifixion rubbish in the New Testament.

And I never said majority, I said numerous. 40% of Americans is numerous.

2 billions Christians in the world and you're basing your conclusions of a few million rednecks??

Well, 40% of Americans would equate to around 126 million people.

That seems fairly numerous to me!

Only 70% of Americans even identify as Christian. Therefore for that absurd stat to be true (i.e. not the more likely, 40% of American Christians) almost 60% of American Christians would need to be creationists.

And it still doesn't prove your point. It is one element of the OT that more beligerent/stupid Christians seem to hang on to. Wonder how many of those 40% have ever worn a condom or practice any element of birth control? Or have even masturbated?

All forbidden in the OT.

Ergo, American Christians take more guidance from the NT as to how they LIVE THEIR LIVES, irrespective of whether they are also creationists.

To be fair, Moses was like 100 when he penned Leviticus. Nonetheless, like I said earlier: the first five books of the Bible are really nothing more than a civilisation taking it's first steps. You've git to remember that the majority of the pharisees of the day actually wanted to stone Jesus for being a radical who flipped the script. Taking inspiration from a source and representing a source is not the same thing.

Also, that 'numerous' is about 6% of the global Christian population. Say again why that's such a great indicator??

My mother is very religious ...comes from a long list of Irish catholics...............My father is an atheist........and a believer in Darwin's theory as I am...

Though I believe in Darwin's theory....I don't rule out there being a God as well....Whether that's more from hope than belief who knows !!!...

My mother is probably one step off "Opus Dei" certainly someone you'd expect to be against gay marriage............She isn't !!! ..and she doesn't believe half the stuff written in the bible....and her "Father" at the local church doesn't either !!!.

Not sure where they get this 40% or 45% figure from but I'm doubtful.........

Religious people tend to be stereotyped as all believing in the same things....a bit like all Americans are viewed as fat war mongers.....

Lazy stereotyping....

45% of Americans believe in creatonism..................I don't buy it !!..

TopHat24/7 wrote:Also, that 'numerous' is about 6% of the global Christian population.  Say again why that's such a great indicator??

It is not a survey of the global Christian population, though.

It is a merely a survey of the American population; I have not found a survey that exists for the global Christian population or, indeed, any land outside the United States. And the survey finds that around 40% of Americans champion a creationist viewpoint, whilst believing the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.

If 40% of Americans surveyed believe something to be so, I find that a numerous amount. It is not "6% of the global Christian population" because that would be saying that every other country outside the United States has 0% that believe in the creationist theory put forward by the Old Testament - on the balance of probability, that is highly unlikely to be true.

Do you think they surveyed 300 million American's or just took a sample-set? Have you heard of sample bias? It's a ridiculous, and meaningless, statistic. A soundbite, nothing more.

AND IT STILL DOESN'T PROVE YOUR POINT.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Do you think they surveyed 300 million American's or just took a sample-set? Have you heard of sample bias? It's a ridiculous, and meaningless, statistic.  A soundbite, nothing more.

They surveyed just over a thousand, I believe.

Do you have anything to back up your point - which is, I assume, that a negligible amount of Christians subscribe to some teachings of the Old Testament?

So potential for massive survey bias then.

Let's look at this another way, going back to my earlier point, you say Christians live by the OT, and use this silly stat as your back up. If that's the case, do you think none of those surveyed use a condom either? Or masturbate?

Because if they do either it would suggest that how they LIVE THEIR LIVE is not derived from the OT, they simply believe one element of it.

That's why your silly argument is such straw-man rubbish.

Duty281 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Do you think they surveyed 300 million American's or just took a sample-set? Have you heard of sample bias? It's a ridiculous, and meaningless, statistic.  A soundbite, nothing more.

They surveyed just over a thousand, I believe.

Do you have anything to back up your point - which is, I assume, that a negligible amount of Christians subscribe to some teachings of the Old Testament?

Thing to remember also Duty is......You can ask people the same question in different ways and elicit a different response....

Is Ed Miliband useless ?? Wouldn't go that far so I'll say No..

Has Ed Miliband's leadership been disappointing so far ??? I'll say Yes...........So put down useless in your survey ...

Are you open to the idea of creatonism ?? Yes......means you're willing to believe...so drop the "willing" bit in your sample !!.

Do you believe in creatonism ??? No......

I know this is kinda an old thread now, but I've just logged on recently and this really struck a chord. Not the gay marriage debate (for me that's a matter of separation of church and state) but the religion issue.

I come from Northern Ireland. I'm a Christian, and nominally Presbyterian (you would call it the United Reformed Church in England and Wales or the Church of Scotland), though I don't go as often as I would like, generally as the church is soulless.

Why it relates to what you're on about is, if you look at Northern Ireland Protestantism, it is very much still in an Old Testament mindset. I also find people my age are now (if they haven't left religion, as a lot do), go to these new evangelical churches or move to existing ones (think Free Presbyterian or Reformed Presbyterian). This is also an issue, because they tend to be the most cliquey and kinda cold groups around,  and I get the impression they are very judgemental of those not in their group. Their preachers can also come out with some nasty stuff (some, not all mind) that I find just wrong for them to say. They also seem to engage in a lot of FB oneupmanship to see who can quote the most Scripture on FB, which is kinda unsettling.

Doesn't really leave that much for people like me who believe but a) find mainstream churches generally boring but b) find the alternative way too extreme, due to the individuals involved. And to be honest, if I have a problem, I'd but rather share it with my non - believing friends than my believing ones, as they'll generally pontificate. (with some exceptions of course!)

I guess it's like, so many of them are so absorbed in the "culture", that they forgot their duties in this life, which is kinda sad. I think religion can be a force for good, but mishandled can be the worst force of evil. One only needs to look at Northern Ireland today to see such effects, although not as bad as say 20 years ago.

My personal views with my friends and others is, I may think one thing, you may think another, but that's fine. As long as you aren't in anybody's face. And I've found my more Christian friends aren't the holy ones, but the ones who get on with it. And I just find the brand of religion the world sees in NI to be unpalatable. This whole hate the other side/gay people/do nothing on the Sabbath etc is not really what Christianity is about in my book. They take great pride in certain passages of the Bible but never get the real meaning ie love they neighbour.

We aren't all like that however,  but as usual, those who shout the loudest get heard the most. It's also intertwined into politics which isn't a good thing,  but that's a whole other discussion. But I feel religion is on one hand dying out in NI, but what's worse for me is that what remains is getting a bit more away from the true meaning, through their words.  They kinda remind me of modern day Pharisees!

Catholic church can cover up child abuse and launder money...

But gay marriage is a no no...

Like with these idiot jehovah's who would rather their kids died than have a blood transfusion...

Make them recognise it..

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

Marky wrote:Can you imagine the uproar if a gay couple tried getting married in a Mosque? Why is a Church okay?

For example you will hear many say things like ''Jesus loves all people'' which is very comforting but Jesus was a man of GOD who followed GODS laws word for word so do you really believe he would endorse homosexuality???

I would say NO. It seems christians have the wrong estimation of the man. As a man of GOD Jesus was un compromising when it came to the laws and statutes of his faith. He was a loving human being yes but if he were around today the world view of him would be no different to the world view of ISIS except without the grotesque violence.

The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’^{[[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark 12&version=NIV#fen-NIV-24705g]g[/url]]} There is no commandment greater than these.”

Yep, love thy neighbour...unless she's a woman of course!

It's worth listening to despite the title (Yes i admit in wrong thread but no where else to put it went on the basis it's America related)