RWC 2015 - The start of the decline of international rugby?

First topic message reminder :

Sorry for the sensationalist headline, but I had to draw everyone in somehow...

OK so it's pretty well known that firstly the stadium issues, then the disagreement with Man U, Ticketmaster ballsing up, and the struggle to convince Joe Soap to only go to nothing games are all teething problems. These issues have nothing to do with the RFU of course, these are the usual issues that will pop up for every major tournament.

Then there are the Australian media boycotts, the lack of regulation on touts (of which may be a huge issue still, 1000's of £ tickets available already), the debenture holder swindel, and finally the public ticket allocation. But again, these profit maximising techniques are not uncommon at every major sporting event.

The big issue I want to discuss is the club games effect on this RWC specifically.

Firstly there are 3 big name first tier players retiring from international rugby pre tournament and on the verge of French club moves...

Strettle - Shocked Englands coach Lancaster when he decided the RWC wasn't a priority

Ven Der Merw - Despite SA's lock crisis the French bound international decided 'personal reasons' were to blame.

Ben Mowen - The super rugby captain has prioritised French club rugby over Australian international

Now there are many more, Ortega Uruguays only Pro player has elected to stay in Castres despite viewing RWC qualification as the highlight of his career, and looking forward to the tournament originally, only to U turn and pull out.

The reports are that there will be up to 20+ PAcific Island players made themselves unavailable, and estimates are 4/5 first team player per nation.

Imagine selecting 4/5 first team players from any tier 1 nation to leave out due to club comitments, NZ would go from favourites to also rans, SA would become semi final potentialists, and most 6N teams would struggle to get out of their group!

Why is this not a huge issue for World Rugby, the RWC is such a huge money maker if the trend continues, which was an issue for me in NZ in 2011 then in 2019 there will probably only be 2/3 nations truly competitive and the rest scrambling together a squad from who's available!

Now there isn't any criticism directed at anyone in particular, well except for World Rugby and the T14 at this point, I am yet to see the same attitude in the Aviva, Pro 12 or Super rugby, but surely I can't be the only one who is worried about this?!

I know that the odd player isn't going to effect the RWC, but the trend of 20/30 players of which is proving on this RWC alone does, and thats without talking about the Ref clash, fixture schedule, and travel / logistics issues smaller nations get hammered with!

Rant over, sorry it was a long night

Sin é wrote:Isa Nacewa made himself unavailable for a world cup (for Fiji).

Only because he felt he was cheated by them, or conned by them. It was nothing along the lines of the likes of Alex Furguson telling Ryan Giggs he was injured every time Wales had a match. Isa made the choice himself not to play for Fiji.

If you have 2/3 of your entrants unhappy & the organisers refuse to talk about changes you can not be surprised that they up sticks & set up their own comp.
What are the penalties WR can impose on clubs that don't release players?
It is up to the players whether to report the clubs or accept coercion. They still have a choice.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:Isa Nacewa made himself unavailable for a world cup (for Fiji).

Only because he felt he was cheated by them, or conned by them. It was nothing along the lines of the likes of Alex Furguson telling Ryan Giggs he was injured every time Wales had a match. Isa made the choice himself not to play for Fiji.

But those were 'friendlies', Giggs was always available for qualifier games.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Giggs was always available for qualifier games.

Was he ?

I seem to remember quite a few qualifiers out in places like Azerbaijan where he was "injured". Anyway I was just using that as a difference between the player making himself unavailable by his own choice as apposed to somebody doing it for you.

I can't remember him missing any proper games (but I could be wrong). The only reason I mentioned it was because people keep saying it will end up like the football model.

In football the clubs all have international window breaks, to ensure that players can play international.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:In football the clubs all have international window breaks, to ensure that players can play international.

This I totally 100% agree with. We used to have this though, well we did in Wales anyway. I remember a time, that when Wales were playing, no other rugby team would play a competitive match, even down to grass routes. I remember a charity or exhibition game in the morning before Wales kicked off, but never anything serious. Why has this stopped ?

The game went pro

broadlandboy wrote:If you have 2/3 of your entrants unhappy & the organisers refuse to talk about changes you can not be surprised that they up sticks & set up their own comp.
What are the penalties WR can impose on clubs that don't release players?
It is up to the players whether to report the clubs or accept coercion. They still have a choice.

Or to put it another way; it's up to the players to choose to turn their backs on their club and their financial security, for them and their families, or to turn their backs on the chance to represent their national team. They still have a choice.

The Great Aukster wrote:When the PRL/LNR made their power grab it was forecast that the clubs would start to dictate to Unions about when a player would be released. It is hardly surprising that those chickens are coming home to roost.

It could be argued that the PI players in France have already made their name and so don't have to appear on the RWC cat walk. By not being available they are simply giving opportunities to the next batch, but are also cementing the notion where their loyalty truly lies - to their club.

The Strettle move must really worry England fans though as he won't be on chickenfeed at Saracens, so to be tempted away and exclude himself from the RWC shows the scale of the problem. This is just the thin end of the wedge and the soccer experience should provide enough of a template for everyone to be scared.

Clubs will increasingly report that 'coincidentally' their International players are carrying knocks during the AIs and won't be available, probably the same for the summer tours. All of which devalues the 'friendly' tests and will increasingly impact the tournaments like the 6N and RWC.

It is easy to see what will happen in the International arena by again looking at how the top football clubs populate their teams with players who will both be available and won't be getting injured playing for some National side. The opportunities for home talent will be reduced, so reducing the home talent pool and in England's case they will forever look misty eyed on 1966 when the National team mattered more than the clubs from which it drew its players.

The decline of Test rugby started when the Unions allowed themselves to be sidelined, but now that train has started there's no stopping it. Still the RWC will be a good showcase for young players to attract a club deal. As for the fans - if they want to see their side succeed, perhaps they'll have to choose one from the Top14?

I'm not so sure the bit in bold is true Aukster. Strettle is a 31 year old out and out winger with (off the top of my head) about 10 caps, he's not the kind of player that the rules about playing in England if you want to play for England are targeted at.

He's moving towards the end of his career, this is probably his last chance of a paycheck, and even as recently as the end of the 6N, I reckon you'd have done well to have found an England fan who was backing him to make the RWC squad, given there's only likely to be 3 spots for out and out wingers.

He's behind (in no particular order) Watson, Nowell, May, Ashton, Rokoduguni and Yarde for me, when it comes to the international pecking order. A fair few of us on here were questioning why he was in over the likes of Roko and Wade in the first place

If it was a guy like Watson who took the cash over England, we'd be far more worried

BamBam wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:The Strettle move must really worry England fans though as he won't be on chickenfeed at Saracens, so to be tempted away and exclude himself from the RWC shows the scale of the problem. This is just the thin end of the wedge and the soccer experience should provide enough of a template for everyone to be scared.

I'm not so sure the bit in bold is true Aukster. Strettle is a 31 year old out and out winger with (off the top of my head) about 10 caps, he's not the kind of player that the rules about playing in England if you want to play for England are targeted at.

He's moving towards the end of his career, this is probably his last chance of a paycheck, and even as recently as the end of the 6N, I reckon you'd have done well to have found an England fan who was backing him to make the RWC squad, given there's only likely to be 3 spots for out and out wingers.

He's behind (in no particular order) Watson, Nowell, May, Ashton, Rokoduguni and Yarde for me, when it comes to the international pecking order. A fair few of us on here were questioning why he was in over the likes of Roko and Wade in the first place

If it was a guy like Watson who took the cash over England, we'd be far more worried

I agree with most of that BamBam. However his personal RWC unavailability is the least important part, it is taking the cash in France rather than taking the cash in England that is the problem. My point is that if a successful, high paying outfit like Saracens can't hold on to a seasoned home grown player like DS - where does that lead? Strettle is worth a lot not just for his experience but because he is increasingly unlikely to be away on Test duty therefore his club replacement is more likely to be someone who is both experienced and available during International windows and above all - affordable. The overall pool of EQ players playing in the Aviva Prem could decrease as it has in the Barclays Premiership, as club success becomes more important than country success.

In the recent u21 football there were complaints about some players not being released to play for England by their clubs. There is a direct parallel with the u20 JWC where this has been happening for some time. As clubs get more power they will increasingly ignore the wishes of their Union because they now realise they can get away with it, as the Unions have either no teeth or the will to use them.

There is a slight possibility Saracens are trying to lower their wage bill as well though thats a guess. Sarries despite their detractors are good at bringing through young talent so they may be making room.

Aukster, I see your point and do agree with you in general terms.

I just don't see it with Strettle, and I reckon his salary has probably gone towards securing the SA flanker they've brought in, while he'll be replaced by a couple of young kids who've looked good at u20 level in Morris and Perkins.

Although with it being Sarries, they'll probably go sign someone else instead

No 7&1/2 wrote:There is a slight possibility Saracens are trying to lower their wage bill as well though thats a guess. Sarries despite their detractors are good at bringing through young talent so they may be making room.

Shocked.
Absolutely shocked at the implication.

(my goodness, this thread has all over the lot)

I have to applaud you guys, this was a very good read, some great points from a few differing sides.

I named Strettle as a key figure, although he is probably 3rd choice at bets, maybe 4th (behind May and Nowell definately).

I think Mowan is a better example, who is a potential starter for Aus at 6 or 8.

Although the huge one for me is Van Der Merwe, and I may have got this slightl wrong (it wouldn't be the first time) but I have him pegged right now as a starter guarentee'd, with the injuries and lack of options SA have.

My worry is less about the financial coersion of the lower tier players, although that is a huge concern to me, especially the likes of Ortega and Johnstone who have clearly been strong armed due to their situations, but more so that 3 tier 1 nations players have elected to take big money deals despite the chance to win a RWC. All 3 play in teams who have to believ they are there to win it, if you don't beleive you have a chance if your an Australian, SA or English international player you have no business playing the sport.

To turn your back on the biggest prize in rugby, for money? That does it for me, thats where the sport has officially entered an area where characters show themselves...

I will take a lot of flack for this, but I dislike POC signing for Toulon, THE munsterman, THE Irishman, goes and signs a contract that will oppose Munster and Irish ambition? I know he owes Irish and Munster rugby nothing, and will always be a legend, but there will now always be an asterix next to his name, an asterix that says (ended in the sunny south of France). I still think he's a legend, but I never thought I would see a guy like that sign a 2 year contract, and thats probably what hurts me, the fact its 2 years! 1 season I can see, he hasn't much left, and wouldn't be at his best, but 2 years to me tells me he has something left in the tank to give his country.

I know that won't be a popular view, but I thought the same about Jonny Wilkinson when he went to France, although his options were limited with Newcastle, and the Toulon project must have been an exciting prospect, however damaging for the global game it may prove.

Fanster wrote:I will take a lot of flack for this, but I dislike POC signing for Toulon, THE munsterman, THE Irishman, goes and signs a contract that will oppose Munster and Irish ambition? I know he owes Irish and Munster rugby nothing, and will always be a legend, but there will now always be an asterix next to his name, an asterix that says (ended in the sunny south of France). I still think he's a legend, but I never thought I would see a guy like that sign a 2 year contract, and thats probably what hurts me, the fact its 2 years! 1 season I can see, he hasn't much left, and wouldn't be at his best, but 2 years to me tells me he has something left in the tank to give his country.

I know that won't be a popular view, but I thought the same about Jonny Wilkinson when he went to France, although his options were limited with Newcastle, and the Toulon project must have been an exciting prospect, however damaging for the global game it may prove.

This isn't a popularity contest - is it?

The truth is that POC going to France is good for him AND good for Irish rugby.

Toulon have both quantity and quality. He can potentially be rested anytime he has a niggle so prolonging his career, where at Munster he would play on and maybe makes things worse. He is far too competitive to give up rugby after his career is finished and cutting his teeth as a forwards coach in maybe France is perfect grounding to bring home at some stage. Knowing exactly the attractions and pitfalls of a T14 life would be invaluable to pass on to guys being made offers.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Fanster wrote:I will take a lot of flack for this, but I dislike POC signing for Toulon, THE munsterman, THE Irishman, goes and signs a contract that will oppose Munster and Irish ambition? I know he owes Irish and Munster rugby nothing, and will always be a legend, but there will now always be an asterix next to his name, an asterix that says (ended in the sunny south of France). I still think he's a legend, but I never thought I would see a guy like that sign a 2 year contract, and thats probably what hurts me, the fact its 2 years! 1 season I can see, he hasn't much left, and wouldn't be at his best, but 2 years to me tells me he has something left in the tank to give his country.

I know that won't be a popular view, but I thought the same about Jonny Wilkinson when he went to France, although his options were limited with Newcastle, and the Toulon project must have been an exciting prospect, however damaging for the global game it may prove.

This isn't a popularity contest - is it?

The truth is that POC going to France is good for him AND good for Irish rugby.

Toulon have both quantity and quality. He can potentially be rested anytime he has a niggle so prolonging his career, where at Munster he would play on and maybe makes things worse. He is far too competitive to give up rugby after his career is finished and cutting his teeth as a forwards coach in maybe France is perfect grounding to bring home at some stage. Knowing exactly the attractions and pitfalls of a T14 life would be invaluable to pass on to guys being made offers.

I disagree playing against Leinster would be good for Irish rugby.

Like I said if he has 2 club years left he surely has 1 international year left too, a serious positional weakness in the second row could be aided with an experienced player, learning to coach being around both Munster and Ireland set ups.

When will Toulon rest him? If he gets injured or fatigued Boudjallel will just threaten to sack him as he has done previously!

Quite a lot of * players around then.

Cyril wrote:

Fanster wrote:Then there are the Australian media boycotts

Not sure the Aussie media would ever be missed (competing strongly for the worst media in sport with their NZ equivalents!).

What do you mean Cyril?

We have Mark Reason. He writes snide snarky articles about NZ rugby and NZ in general and blows smoke up England bums (because he is English!). He spent 20 years covering sport at the Telegraph but now lives in NZ. It sounds like you may appreciate his articles more than the usual NZ media drivel

Fanster wrote:
I will take a lot of flack for this, but I dislike POC signing for Toulon, THE munsterman, THE Irishman, goes and signs a contract that will oppose Munster and Irish ambition? I know he owes Irish and Munster rugby nothing, and will always be a legend, but there will now always be an asterix next to his name, an asterix that says (ended in the sunny south of France). I still think he's a legend, but I never thought I would see a guy like that sign a 2 year contract, and thats probably what hurts me, the fact its 2 years! 1 season I can see, he hasn't much left, and wouldn't be at his best, but 2 years to me tells me he has something left in the tank to give his country.

I know that won't be a popular view, but I thought the same about Jonny Wilkinson when he went to France, although his options were limited with Newcastle, and the Toulon project must have been an exciting prospect, however damaging for the global game it may prove.

There won't be an * next to his name in either Munster or Ireland. All you have to do is look at the reception Peter Stringer got recently when playing for Bath against Leinster (and Strings is a Munsterman).

Its at the end of his career and no one begrudges him something for his pension fund and a good life experience. He and his family obviously like France because he got married there. His contract is really 18 months because of the world cup and it would really not have been worth it to move his family over for 6 months.

According to reports in the Irish media, he intended to retire after the world cup anyway, except Toulon kept calling him every week to get him to change his mind. Toulon looked after Jonny Wilkinson very well. Going on Ali Williams last season with Toulon, (20 games, 1327 minutes), POC will do just fine there (16 games, 1268 mins for Munster, 7 games, 560 mins = 23 games, 1828 mins). Going on that, POC will not be overworked by Toulon.

As for damaging the game by going to Toulon - too late now - if you can't beat them, you may as well join them.

I agree Sin.

Poor auld Paulie has been carrying a hopeless Munster side for years and deserves a break.

Seems to be a bit of a backlash in Limerick though over those posters the council erected last week? Quite a few natives not happy about their taxes being used to put up posters of a deserter?

rodders wrote:I agree Sin.

Poor auld Paulie has been carrying a hopeless Munster side for years and deserves a break.

Seems to be a bit of a backlash in Limerick though over those posters the council erected last week? Quite a few natives not happy about their taxes being used to put up posters of a deserter?

They didn't erect them last week

Cyril wrote:

Fanster wrote:Then there are the Australian media boycotts

Not sure the Aussie media would ever be missed (competing strongly for the worst media in sport with their NZ equivalents!).

We didnt even know that there was such a competition, I presume its an English based comp, and the judges are all English. or is it just your mind playing tricks on you again Cyril?

Sin é wrote:

Fanster wrote:
I will take a lot of flack for this, but I dislike POC signing for Toulon, THE munsterman, THE Irishman, goes and signs a contract that will oppose Munster and Irish ambition? I know he owes Irish and Munster rugby nothing, and will always be a legend, but there will now always be an asterix next to his name, an asterix that says (ended in the sunny south of France). I still think he's a legend, but I never thought I would see a guy like that sign a 2 year contract, and thats probably what hurts me, the fact its 2 years! 1 season I can see, he hasn't much left, and wouldn't be at his best, but 2 years to me tells me he has something left in the tank to give his country.

I know that won't be a popular view, but I thought the same about Jonny Wilkinson when he went to France, although his options were limited with Newcastle, and the Toulon project must have been an exciting prospect, however damaging for the global game it may prove.

There won't be an * next to his name in either Munster or Ireland. All you have to do is look at the reception Peter Stringer got recently when playing for Bath against Leinster (and Strings is a Munsterman).

Its at the end of his career and no one begrudges him something for his pension fund and a good life experience. He and his family obviously like France because he got married there. His contract is really 18 months because of the world cup and it would really not have been worth it to move his family over for 6 months.

According to reports in the Irish media, he intended to retire after the world cup anyway, except Toulon kept calling him every week to get him to change his mind. Toulon looked after Jonny Wilkinson very well. Going on Ali Williams last season with Toulon, (20 games, 1327 minutes), POC will do just fine there (16 games, 1268 mins for Munster, 7 games, 560 mins = 23 games, 1828 mins). Going on that, POC will not be overworked by Toulon.

As for damaging the game by going to Toulon - too late now - if you can't beat them, you may as well join them.

Agree with you for once Sin. I think every player would like to play in France at some point. Irish players do well enough to resist the temptations of playing over there as it is and POC is doing it at exactly the right time. Toulon looked after Wilkinson and Juan Smith pretty well... O'Connell should prosper, maybe even add an extra year to the contract. I think his international days are over and he's done all he can for the game in Ireland. Time to sun it up for a bit and earn some money. Bit worried about his skin in the south of France though, with him being a ginger n all...

The Saint wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Fanster wrote:
I will take a lot of flack for this, but I dislike POC signing for Toulon, THE munsterman, THE Irishman, goes and signs a contract that will oppose Munster and Irish ambition? I know he owes Irish and Munster rugby nothing, and will always be a legend, but there will now always be an asterix next to his name, an asterix that says (ended in the sunny south of France). I still think he's a legend, but I never thought I would see a guy like that sign a 2 year contract, and thats probably what hurts me, the fact its 2 years! 1 season I can see, he hasn't much left, and wouldn't be at his best, but 2 years to me tells me he has something left in the tank to give his country.

I know that won't be a popular view, but I thought the same about Jonny Wilkinson when he went to France, although his options were limited with Newcastle, and the Toulon project must have been an exciting prospect, however damaging for the global game it may prove.

There won't be an * next to his name in either Munster or Ireland. All you have to do is look at the reception Peter Stringer got recently when playing for Bath against Leinster (and Strings is a Munsterman).

Its at the end of his career and no one begrudges him something for his pension fund and a good life experience. He and his family obviously like France because he got married there. His contract is really 18 months because of the world cup and it would really not have been worth it to move his family over for 6 months.

According to reports in the Irish media, he intended to retire after the world cup anyway, except Toulon kept calling him every week to get him to change his mind. Toulon looked after Jonny Wilkinson very well. Going on Ali Williams last season with Toulon, (20 games, 1327 minutes), POC will do just fine there (16 games, 1268 mins for Munster, 7 games, 560 mins = 23 games, 1828 mins). Going on that, POC will not be overworked by Toulon.

As for damaging the game by going to Toulon - too late now - if you can't beat them, you may as well join them.

Agree with you for once Sin. I think every player would like to play in France at some point. Irish players do well enough to resist the temptations of playing over there as it is and POC is doing it at exactly the right time. Toulon looked after Wilkinson and Juan Smith pretty well... O'Connell should prosper, maybe even add an extra year to the contract. I think his international days are over and he's done all he can for the game in Ireland. Time to sun it up for a bit and earn some money. Bit worried about his skin in the south of France though, with him being a ginger n all...

No and no, these are 2 opinions of yours that very few people would agree with! I think what you meant to say was that every play would take the selling out option, and then some players wouldn't. Tulon 'looked after' Wilkinson and Smith?

Why shouldnt players move abroad or even retire from internationals when they want to though?

Players go to France for different reasons, and not just the money. Some also want to experience a different culture (both rugby and in general) and France offers a very good standard of living. Many of the French clubs are based in beautiful areas. Some of the French clubs have fans up there with the best in Europe too.

Why does everything have to be black and white and players considered either loyal or mercenary? The days of one-club players is largely gone. Why shouldn't players get the chance to test themselves somewhere else and be well-rewarded into the bargain.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Why shouldnt players move abroad or even retire from internationals when they want to though?

Don't get me wrong, they can go and do whatever they like, wherever they like, well in this day of professionalism anyway, I'm talking about my own preference and dislike of the sellout culture.

I'm not comparing POC to Sonny Bill Millions, but can I now rate them on opposite sides of the scale when it comes to loyalty and the love of the game over money, no.

I may be a bit old fashioned, but I still believe that rugby as a sport has that little extra than others, where money couldn't pull legendary players away from the clubs they love, away from the country they love, but it turns out the only reason I thought tht is because there just wasn't enough money on offer yet, and had there been in the amateur days every top international player wa up for sale.

POC has done nothing wrong, except dissapoint me personally. That said I don't know the details, so maybe he didn't have a contract offer in Ireland, but I can't believe that.

Toulon are a fantastic club good luck to the guy. It may well benefit him going to a new culture and new coaches. If it turns out as Wilkinson he ll love them they ll love him and everyone bene fits. Hes no sellout he remains a legend.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Toulon are a fantastic club good luck to the guy. It may well benefit him going to a new culture and new coaches. If it turns out as Wilkinson he ll love them they ll love him and everyone bene fits. Hes no sellout he remains a legend.

He remains a legend alright, but as I said after moving to Toulon for 2 seasons there will forever be an asterix next to his name for me.

The comparison with Wilkinson isn't valid is it, Wilkinson was a World cup winner with no real club future, once he moved to Toulon his career revolved around Toulon, and his international performances were severely lacking, now I'm not saying that was directly resulted from Toulon but thats what happened.

Just seems strange you d class a awful lot of people as asterixed just because they move abroad. Trying to think of a player who wouldn t be in that group to be honest. Why is Wilkinson asterixed anyway, he was at the end of career had no real club future according to you and probably prolonged his career.

Fanster wrote:

No and no, these are 2 opinions of yours that very few people would agree with! I think what you meant to say was that every play would take the selling out option, and then some players wouldn't. Tulon 'looked after' Wilkinson and Smith?

True, the former is an opinion of mine. But if you've ever been to France and been in the rugby community all your life then you would probably think the same. But you haven't. Good money, great weather, great lifestyle, great rugby teams; why would a player at some point not want to play in France? You seem to have difficulty in understanding that posters are going to have a different opinion to your own, and that's no surprise eh 'fanster'... Not sure what you mean by selling out. Smith retired from rugby due to injury. Toulon brought him back and he was a pivotal player in their team, one of a few I guess. Wilkinson struggled with years of injury, retired from England duty. Toulon brought him into a world class squad where he flourished, remained injury-free for the majority of his time there and won silverware and European player of the year. You must live under a rock to think otherwise.

When it comes to moving abroad some go primarily for money and to try and get a bit of a nest egg for young families secure future etc others like Jamie Roberts I feel are more culture vulture and whilst the money is good someone like him I feel would move there anyway just to experience a different style/pace of living.

I haven't come across any Munster or Ireland fan who feels in any way disappointed by O'Connell. This is because everyone understands that whatever happened he had made the decision to end his international and provincial career after the World Cup. He was going to retire before Toulon convinced him to take on one last contract. There was never any prospect of seeing him continue with Ireland or Munster after the World Cup, so it doesn't make any odds to Irish Rugby whether he plays on somewhere else for a little while.

Let me reiterate; if he hadn't accepted the Toulon offer, he would have retired. There wasn't a continue in Irish Rugby option on the table for him, through his own choice. He served Irish Rugby well for 14, 15 years and having won everything it's possible to win except for the World Cup he was going to seek a new challenge either on or off the pitch. No-one has a problem with that because he's given so much to Irish rugby he doesn't owe anybody anything. There is a big difference between a player going to France in his prime even of it means turning his back on international rugby and a veteran going over for a short spell to finish off his career. When you play for your country for 13 years and win over 100 caps, there is no asterisk beside your name. Ever. You've earned the right to do what you want.

Its a Pro game these days and for some a very short carear so they have to do what is best for them financially as well.