TRC Round 2: South Africa v New Zealand, 25 July

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SOUTH AFRICA v NEW ZEALAND
25 July 2015
KO: 17:05 SAST (UTC+02)
Emirates Airline Park, Johannesburg

TV TBC

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Assistant Referees: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]

A. Recent History

4 October 2014
Ellis Park Stadium, Johannesburg
27 – 25 to South Africa
 
13 September 2014
Westpac Stadium, Wellington
14 – 10 to New Zealand

5 October 2013
Ellis Park Stadium, Johannesburg
27 – 38 to New Zealand

14 September 2013
Eden Park, Auckland
29 – 15 to New Zealand

6 October 2012
FNB Stadium, Johannesburg
16 – 32 to New Zealand

B. Squads

1. South Africa

Forwards: Willem Alberts, Schalk Brits, Schalk Burger, Marcell Coetzee, Eben Etzebeth, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Siya Kolisi, Francois Louw, Frans Malherbe, Victor Matfield, Heinke van der Merwe, Marcel van der Merwe, Teboho 'Oupa' Mohoje, Francois Mostert, Tendai Mtawarira, Scarra Ntubeni, Trevor Nyakane, Bismarck du Plessis, Jannie du Plessis, Adriaan Strauss, Warren Whiteley

Backs: Damian de Allende, Bryan Habana, Cornal Hendricks, Elton Jantjies, Zane Kirchner, Faf de Klerk, Jesse Kriel, Lwazi Mvovo, Rudy Paige, Ruan Pienaar, JP Pietersen, Handre Pollard, Willie le Roux, Morne Steyn

Conditioning squad (injured players)

Heinrich Brussow, Jaque Fourie, Lood de Jager, Patrick Lambie, Lionel Mapoe, Coenie Oosthuizen, Fourie du Preez, Cobus Reinach, Jan Serfontein, Francois Steyn, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Duane Vermeulen, Jean de Villiers

2. New Zealand

Backs: Israel Dagg, Ben Smith, Nehe Milner-Skudder, Charles Piutau, Cory Jane, Waisake Naholo, Julian Savea, Conrad Smith, Malakai Fekitoa, Ryan Crotty, Ma'a Nonu, Sonny Bill Williams, Dan Carter, Beauden Barrett, Colin Slade, Lima Sopoaga, Aaron Smith, TJ Perenara, Tawera Kerr-Barlow.

Forwards: Kieran Read, Victor Vito, Richie McCaw (capt), Sam Cane, Jerome Kaino, Liam Messam, Matt Todd, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Jeremy Thrush, Luke Romano, James Broadhurst, Owen Franks, Charlie Faumuina, Tony Woodcock, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Joe Moody, Dane Coles, Keven Mealamu, Codie Taylor, Hika Elliot.

C. Teams

1. South Africa

Willie le Roux, Cornal Hendricks, Jesse Kriel, Damian de Allende, Bryan Habana, Handre Pollard, Ruan Pienaar, Schalk Burger (captain), Francois Louw, Heinrich Brussow, Lood de Jager, Eben Etzebeth, Jannie du Plessis, Bismarck du Plessis, Tendai Mtawarira.

Replacements: Adriaan Strauss, Trevor Nyakane, Vincent Koch, Flip van der Merwe, Warren Whiteley, Cobus Reinach, Pat Lambie, Lionel Mapoe.

2. New Zealand

Israel Dagg, Ben Smith, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Charles Piutau, Lima Sopoaga, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Liam Messam, Brodie Retallick, James Broadhurst, Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Codie Taylor, Wyatt Crockett, Ben Franks, Sam Whitelock, Victor Vito, TJ Perenara, Beauden Barrett and Malakai Fekitoa.

ebop wrote:Yup, there will be nerves when any of those teams and including ABs and SA play each other. The ABs and SA are ahead of the game but not so much that a win against any of the chasing pack is a given. I know what you're trying to say about performance but I doubt we will see teams being head and shoulders above all comers again. For now, I revel in the ABs ability to 'win' games no matter how. This is the new reality.

Yup and you have a right to do that.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:To beat the top teams in the NH in October you need a good set peice and a good goal kicker, Aus have neither.

AUS scrum and lineout looked decent versus SA. What other test do you need?

Will Skelton adds real steel to that pack. Anyone who think they will march AUS is in dreamland.

Aus scrum was hammered by SA in the first half.

fa0019 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:To beat the top teams in the NH in October you need a good set peice and a good goal kicker, Aus have neither.

AUS scrum and lineout looked decent versus SA. What other test do you need?

Will Skelton adds real steel to that pack. Anyone who think they will march AUS is in dreamland.

Their scrum got hammered Fa!

Again it's completley different conditions too, Aus scrum was a mess in both games. SA hardly have one of the best scrums in the world and they took Aus to the cleaners.

The kicking must be a concern, 50% or so is not world cup winning material.

Does the fact that this years tournament is a reduced format tournament cheapen the tournament? In my opinion it does. It kind of makes it virtually meaningless IMO.

Also on the NZ v SA game I couldn't help but think that SA lost because once again they were out smarted way too easily and also shot themselves in the foot with poor decision making.

The only team I can remember dominating SA in the scrum in recent years is ARG. The rest at best hit parity. SA are never out the top 1-3 scrums around. AUS is my tip to surprise most at this years RWC, pocock himself is coming back and thats a danger especially England should worry about... changed the game vs. SA.

GunsGerms wrote:Does the fact that this years tournament is a reduced format tournament cheapen the tournament? In my opinion it does. It kind of makes it virtually meaningless IMO.

Also on the NZ v SA game I couldn't help but think that SA lost because once again they were out smarted way too easily and also shot themselves in the foot with poor decision making.

Not so much this year. The only team to send a weakened team was NZ, and they still beat the world no2 side, away from home.

Entitled to your opinion Fa of course, I just don't see anything in Aus that could challange the big teams (Ireland, NZ, SA, England) in NH conditions.

fa0019 wrote: AUS is my tip to surprise most at this years RWC, pocock himself is coming back and thats a danger especially England should worry about... changed the game vs. SA.

Mine too and posted the same elsewhere. I can see them topping their pool and beating both England and Wales who I think are overestimating their tight 5 superiority over the Wallabies.

Fly half is an achilles heel I think though.

could be a factor I admit. They had a bad turn of results at the end of last season but had played well the year before and had a good summer too if I recall. They look much improved this year though IMO.

Aus scrum is a shambles, if they don't address that they'll never beat England. They'll beat Wales though I imagine.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Aus scrum is a shambles, if they don't address that they'll never beat England. They'll beat Wales though I imagine.

Worried about England's lack of genuine floor poachers Sgt? Cole is one of the best in the business to be fair but for me he is a 1 man army. Robshaw is decent mind. AUS have them in droves, SA.... certainly overtaken NZ as the best in the business.. the number of turnovers they get is immense with Bissie, Brussow and Schalla in the team. Even Jannie DP is getting in on the act (never thought I'd say something positive about that guy).

A little Fa yea but Pocock has been neutralised by our pack before. Hooper isn't too effective there imo, he's more like an extra centre.

All we have to do against Aus is play it tight and keep the board ticking over. Their set piece is really poor, 10 man rugby will be enough to put them to bed.

fa0019 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Aus scrum is a shambles, if they don't address that they'll never beat England. They'll beat Wales though I imagine.

Worried about England's lack of genuine floor poachers Sgt? Cole is one of the best in the business to be fair but for me he is a 1 man army. Robshaw is decent mind. AUS have them in droves, SA.... certainly overtaken NZ as the best in the business.. the number of turnovers they get is immense with Bissie, Brussow and Schalla in the team. Even Jannie DP is getting in on the act (never thought I'd say something positive about that guy).

Throw in Launchbury, Lawes, Vunipola, Wood and it looks pretty strong in that area.

I think any opposition that sees Billy V on a starting ENG teamsheet will be very happy. Can't believe he's even close to the setup. He'd be playing Currie Cup in South Africa... maybe.

Wales are pretty successful away from home.

Away Success:

New Zealand - 83.3%
South Africa - 54.6%
Wales - 50%
Australia - 47.9%
Ireland - 47.1%
England - 45.7%
Argentina - 40.5%
France - 30.3%

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11487599

fa0019 wrote:I think any opposition that sees Billy V on a starting ENG teamsheet will be very happy. Can't believe he's even close to the setup. He'd be playing Currie Cup in South Africa... maybe.

Ha. ok.

fa0019 wrote:I think any opposition that sees Billy V on a starting ENG teamsheet will be very happy. Can't believe he's even close to the setup. He'd be playing Currie Cup in South Africa... maybe.

There's been some laughable comments on here down the years, but that it is one of the best! 

Ebop - Little different mind going away to Italy and going away to South Africa.

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Does the fact that this years tournament is a reduced format tournament cheapen the tournament? In my opinion it does. It kind of makes it virtually meaningless IMO.

Also on the NZ v SA game I couldn't help but think that SA lost because once again they were out smarted way too easily and also shot themselves in the foot with poor decision making.

Not so much this year. The only team to send a weakened team was NZ, and they still beat the world no2 side, away from home.

Yeah but to just rejig a whole tournament because the teams involved want to prepare for the world cup in my opinion makes that tournament fairly meaningless. The good news for SA is that no tri-nations winning team has ever gone on to win the WC.

Ozzy3213 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think any opposition that sees Billy V on a starting ENG teamsheet will be very happy. Can't believe he's even close to the setup. He'd be playing Currie Cup in South Africa... maybe.

There's been some laughable comments on here down the years, but that it is one of the best! 

Maybe people in England think he's top class. Don't see him in domestic rugby only tests and he's makes about 1 yard per carry, is terribly out of shape for a pro rugby player and isn't in the same league as an old but portly master like Dean Richards. Saying his weight is genetic is poor form... say that Jerry Collins, Pat Lam, Jonah Lomu, Toby Faletau (easily superior).

I remember seeing him smashed to pieces vs. a Toulouse No.8 Galan in a HC match a few years back.... that kid has never even been capped by France.

Whenever England play Morgan they look a completely different side. Dynamic, a genuine ball carrying threat.

The SH sides don't fear anyone who simply thinks a 120kg player smashing it up the middle is going to be a threat. They see 3-4 of those guys in every SR side week in week out.

rodders wrote:

fa0019 wrote: AUS is my tip to surprise most at this years RWC, pocock himself is coming back and thats a danger especially England should worry about... changed the game vs. SA.

Mine too and posted the same elsewhere. I can see them topping their pool and beating both England and Wales who I think are overestimating their tight 5 superiority over the Wallabies.

Fly half is an achilles heel I think though.  

Australia's 9 and 10 will have to improve beyond recognition to win a WC. Cooper and Foley have been very weak, Genia cant seem to get out of the blocks while Phipps is decent but maybe not on top form?

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Does the fact that this years tournament is a reduced format tournament cheapen the tournament? In my opinion it does. It kind of makes it virtually meaningless IMO.

Also on the NZ v SA game I couldn't help but think that SA lost because once again they were out smarted way too easily and also shot themselves in the foot with poor decision making.

Not so much this year. The only team to send a weakened team was NZ, and they still beat the world no2 side, away from home.

Yeah but to just rejig a whole tournament because the teams involved want to prepare for the world cup in my opinion makes that tournament fairly meaningless. The good news for SA is that no tri-nations winning team has ever gone on to win the WC.

reduced yes but the 6N doesn't play home and away legs. This year is the first time no one has really reduced the strength of their sides and compromised victory. I think its been a good tournament thus far, albeit for the results!

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:

fa0019 wrote: AUS is my tip to surprise most at this years RWC, pocock himself is coming back and thats a danger especially England should worry about... changed the game vs. SA.

Mine too and posted the same elsewhere. I can see them topping their pool and beating both England and Wales who I think are overestimating their tight 5 superiority over the Wallabies.

Fly half is an achilles heel I think though.  

Australia's 9 and 10 will have to improve beyond recognition to win a WC. Cooper and Foley have been very weak, Genia cant seem to get out of the blocks while Phipps is decent but maybe not on top form?

Amazing that huh.. never thought I'd see Genia suffer so bad. He looks a shadow of the player he was and Phipps improves the side whenever he plays.

fa0019 wrote:I think any opposition that sees Billy V on a starting ENG teamsheet will be very happy. Can't believe he's even close to the setup. He'd be playing Currie Cup in South Africa... maybe.

To be honest he was probably England's best player v Ireland in the 6 nations. He is a useful player to have in any squad as he can cover the whole back row and is capable of big performances.

South African rugby isnt as great as you think Fa.

Austrailia will need a new 10 or so players if they're going to win this WC, they're seriously short.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Austrailia will need a new 10 or so players if they're going to win this WC, they're seriously short.

Can't see them winning but definitely my tip is they will top their pool and make a SF ,maybe the final.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think any opposition that sees Billy V on a starting ENG teamsheet will be very happy. Can't believe he's even close to the setup. He'd be playing Currie Cup in South Africa... maybe.

To be honest he was probably England's best player v Ireland in the 6 nations. He is a useful player to have in any squad as he can cover the whole back row and is capable of big performances.

South African rugby isnt as great as you think Fa.

They're not high and mighty as they were that's true.

But is Billy V in the top 5 in GB & IRE??? I don't think so... Faletau, Morgan, Heaslip, Strauss even Denton are superior. Probably others too.

One area that SA continues to churn out talent is the backrow regardless of deficencies in other areas. Would Billy V get a starting 8 berth in SA super rugby. No chance i.e. a Currie Cup player.
He has potential don't get me wrong but hes 15kg away and he's been around the ENG squad for what 2 years now... if he isn't in shape after being an elite player for that long don't expect him to suddenly start looking like Dillaglio anytime soon.

Just because Lancaster chooses him doesn't mean he's a class test player. Lancaster may have guided ENG to 4 2nd places but don't forget they were champs the year before and everyone talks wildly about their talent base. A bit like Jack Rowell.... I think he'll be found out during the RWC.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't seen much of him fa or it's just a wum!

Billy V has gone from a big strong fat kid who lasted 5 minutes to a lot less fat kid that played every minute of the 6N. He doesn't do as much eye catching stuff as Ben Morgan (who'd be my first choice if fit and well) but he does a lot of work. He has improved no end since he joined the Eng setup. (and Sarries who deserve huge credit for getting him fit)

Why a wum?

I'm sure most Englishman would agree that Morgan when fit is the better player. I'm sure most would agree Faletau is also superior. Heaslip offers a lot on the floor and is a very good lineout jumper at the back and with his 5 Lions caps its difficult to not back that.
Doesn't sound that controversial to me.

I see nearly all ENG games. None others really matters into whether or not he is a standout test player.

Not necessarily a wum. I did say you may not have seen many games he's played. If no to the first and yes to the second then that leaves...You're wrong.

The only SA franchise Vuinipola wouldn't start for is the Stormers, as Vermeulen is right up there with Read.

He's a better player than Faletau, Heaslip and Denton. The only 8 better than him in the NH is Parisse. I can't believe you suggested Strauss is a better 8?!?!

I think Heaslip and Morgan would contest that Sgt and Parisse isn't the player he was.

I don't rate Heaslip at all 7 1/2, I'd take both our 8 options and Faletau ahead of him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not necessarily a wum. I did say you may not have seen many games he's played. If no to the first and yes to the second then that leaves...You're wrong.

So he's better than Morgan, Faletau and Heaslip then? That's a bold statement.

Vermeulen, Burger, Whitley. There isn't even a discussion on that.

Would I say Morgan, Faletau and Heaslip would have been capped had they been South African... I'd say yes they are right up there in terms of talent and performance. This isn't a springbok good, non-springbok, bad comment.

Maybe some people like him, but for me he's the sort of player that epitomises Lancaster and why I can't see England challenging for the RWC come the end of the year. Like Tom Youngs, taking moral decisions ahead of rugby decisions in Tuilagi and Hartley and giving George Ford the kicking tee, its all a recipe for disaster.

Ok. I disagree with a lot, if not all of what you've said. I'll leave you to it.

Billy is 10x the player Whitley is. As we seen against Aus he's not cut out for Int rugby.

Which Burger do you refer to?

Sgt

Parisse is 2 years out of date and his lack of cutting edge is obvious.

Billy is a natural talent, but still looks raw, Falatau is the classier player in every departent except for weight IMO.

I would say Heaslip isn't the player he was, and I'd select Billy over he and Denton right now.

Problem England has is that Morgan is never fit, and a Hatton type who may never be, and well the options behind Billy are virtually non existent.

I would say Billy would be comfortable in super rugby, and somewhere near the SA suad, given the average age of the back row is about 245.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Billy is 10x the player Whitley is. As we seen against Aus he's not cut out for Int rugby.

Which Burger do you refer to?

Is there another one?

Whitley has a lot going for him, very versatile player who is a multi-skilled individual.

fa0019 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Billy is 10x the player Whitley is. As we seen against Aus he's not cut out for Int rugby.

Which Burger do you refer to?

Is there another one?

Whitley has a lot going for him, very versatile player who is a multi-skilled individual.

Whitely is bang average, he's done nothing at Int level.

So we've got Vermeulen & Burger who are at the same franchise.....Billy would start for the other 4 without question.

It is his first season of international rugby and difficult behind Burger and Vermeulen to get actual game time.
SA have a huge talent list in backrow. Hell, Jean Deysel at the sharks hardly ever gets game time and thats without the hoards running to Japan and Europe. He wouldn't get close to the Bulls, Sharks or Stormers. Wouldn't start for the Lions and may, may get a place in the Cheetahs but thats only because they started with a whole new batch of forwards this year (I rate him higher than Mahoje if thats a concession).

England fans seem to like him by the above comments, fair enough... maybe there is something I just don't like about him, I don't rate his brother either!

So he would get a start?

Whitley is in his 2nd season as far as I'm aware. Happy to agree to disagree though, Vuinipola has proved it on the Int stage which means a lot for me.

Super rugby is good but it's a different kind of rugby. Whitely being a fine example of somebody who can thrive at that level but struggle to step up.

Its an interesting debate. Heaslip at his best is a very good player. I don't think he's that consistent any more and can seem disinterested at worst.

As for the others how we see most of them depends very much on what we want out of an 8, and everyone's idea of that seems to be different.

I like Morgan because hes a smart guy who is genuinely explosive when he sees a chance, but in reality can be quiet for a lot of the game. I think Billy is a great workhorse and is the most consistent and hardest working of England's options. I think Easter is still capable of doing a job, again because he is smart and he does everything well except actually run much faster than something very slow.

Only saw the highlights and read the reports I'm afraid but this is an interesting article suggesting the NZ scrum were in real trouble until it went to uncontested scrums. Any comments from those who saw the game? Any concerns from NZ fans?

http://www.the42.ie/new-zealand-scrum-analysis-south-africa-2239798-Jul2015/

SA dominated the scrum.

Interestingly NZ probably got on top against the highly rated Arg scrum the week before.

It did look to me like NZ were struggling a bit.

Surprised nobody has mentioned the dodgy line-out that put NZ in the lead at the end ... Mr Invisible off-side again

What match were you watching Sgt.Pooly?there was NOTHING in the Scrums with one exception.Even the the two 8 v 7 Boks didn't have a real advantage,there lineout was pants
3 against the throw.
Surprise,Surprise all the names are coming out of the woodwork to play Argentina,the young
Bok side did very well.BUT the conditioning to play a high speed game on the veldt was`nt
there.
The Dodgy Line Out is all over the Bok Press,just like the biased commentary team of the match.
I respect the Boks Rugby over all but NZ`s but frankly the smoke and mirrors bit by ALL
sides in RWC year makes me sick.
NOTHING will can convince me that was the strongest side SA could have fielded,well as
the youngsters performed.

fa0019 wrote:Ebop - Little different mind going away to Italy and going away to South Africa.

True, SA do struggle a bit in Australia and NZ where they play most of their away games. It's an interesting stat. Probably not really applicable to the RWC but there will be a heap of away team clashes on neutral soil and some teams seem to thrive more away than others.

Emack

SA's scrum was clealry on top when they got it right, and manaeged to flatten NZ a couple of times, the issue was SA's inconsistency to do so, which they also did V Australia.