The official "Even London Irish have got a thread" Scarlets thread 2015/16

[Chunky Norwich]

First topic message reminder :

Come on bois.

[LordDowlais]

Also Hake was one of those jolly useless players in the lower levels of SH rugby.  Not a local lad from academies

So that is one player developed through the regions in recent years, brill.

Dom Day, Bradley Davies, Lou reed, Luke Charteris, Awj, and Ianto aside anyway.

Recent years, not eight to ten years ago.

Lloyd Ashley, Lewis Rawlings, Corey Hill, Matthew Screech, Macauley Cook, James Down, etc.

I think you are determined to be down about our production of locks, and not wanting to look at what we are producing, and who are regularly running out for the regions.  I can't think of any of the regions who have less than two welsh qualified locks running out in their match day 23 squads.

If as you say we have all these decent young 2nd rowers at the regions, then why do we also have so many NWQ one's as well ?

[ScarletSpiderman]

Its for depth. Injuries happen to players, form dips and rises, and players get bans. The regions play 32+ games in a normal season, so you need to have a squad that can deal with that.

Also how many of these NWQ locks are there really?

Bernardo, Landman, Paulino (who is going end of the season), and now Bulbring.

[LordDowlais]

Its for depth.  Injuries happen to players, form dips and rises, and players get bans.  The regions play 32+ games in a normal season, so you need to have a squad that can deal with that.

Also how many of these NWQ locks are there really?

Bernardo, Landman, Paulino (who is going end of the season), and now Bulbring.

Rynard Landman
Maselino Paulino
George Earle
Rynier Bernardo
Jarrad Hoeata

That is one NWQ lock per region starting every week. This is what we have now, not including what we have had in the past few seasons.

We only have 4 teams, we seriously need to be looking at developing our own players more frequently. Whilst I admit Landman is a bit of a find, the rest of those are much of a muchness, for instance, I would start with Thornton over Bernardo any day of the week.

If Scarlets had announced the signing of Matfield or someone of that ilk, I would be jumping for joy, but the regions are always "taking punts", if we are going for NWQ, let make them quality NWQ, players who will help the youngsters around them.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Its for depth.  Injuries happen to players, form dips and rises, and players get bans.  The regions play 32+ games in a normal season, so you need to have a squad that can deal with that.

Also how many of these NWQ locks are there really?

Bernardo, Landman, Paulino (who is going end of the season), and now Bulbring.

Rynard Landman
Maselino Paulino
George Earle
Rynier Bernardo
Jarrad Hoeata

That is one NWQ lock per region starting every week.

Ah so I forgot Hoeata. So that is one lock per region, and they are not always starting. So that is a minimum of two welsh locks in the match day 23 for all of the regions, so it is far from a big issue of SH locks swarming over here.

I'd say we probably have a similar situation of NWQ props, I'd say that there are more NWQ props starting every week than locks.

[LordDowlais]

I'd say we probably have a similar situation of NWQ props, I'd say that there are more NWQ props starting every week than locks.

Yes, I agree, although I have not checked, but off the top of my head I can think of Filise, Ma'afu(Cardiff),Ma'afu(Ospreys), Arhip, Stankovich.

It's an issue we should all be concerned about, unless you do not care about international rugby of course. But we only have 4 pro teams.

Also, George Earle is not Welsh and was not developed through the regions.

[mikey_dragon]

As for your concerns about NWQ locks, a few seasons ago there was a worry about the NWQ backrow players. Look at the situation Wales are in now, we have backrow options coming out our rears.

Well, that proves a point then doesn't it ? If the regions work hard enough, they can produce the players needed. Even if we up it to 4 2nd row players per region, that is only 16 players they need to develop in that position.

The only 2nd row players developed by the regions that fall into the decent category and are able to step up and fill the gaps during the international windows or injuries as you have put it, in recent years is Rory Thornton and Jake Ball. 

If we have to cast our gaze to South Africa all the time for decent 2nd rowers then something is seriously failing at the regions, and in the premiership. I remember not too long ago we had to poach the likes of Olly Kohn to fill the gaps left by injuries.

Unless none of you care about the Welsh national side, this is something that should concern everyone.

Simple fact of the matter is that NOBODY in world rugby can produce that many locks (of the calibre you desire) per team per season. As for our available locks; AWJ, Charteris, Davies, Ball, Day and at a stretch Evans. The next crop; Thornton, Beard, Joe Davies. I think we're fine and you're being stupid.

[LordDowlais]

I think we're fine and you're being stupid

Classy.

[BamBam]

As for your concerns about NWQ locks, a few seasons ago there was a worry about the NWQ backrow players. Look at the situation Wales are in now, we have backrow options coming out our rears.

Well, that proves a point then doesn't it ? If the regions work hard enough, they can produce the players needed. Even if we up it to 4 2nd row players per region, that is only 16 players they need to develop in that position.

The only 2nd row players developed by the regions that fall into the decent category and are able to step up and fill the gaps during the international windows or injuries as you have put it, in recent years is Rory Thornton and Jake Ball. 

If we have to cast our gaze to South Africa all the time for decent 2nd rowers then something is seriously failing at the regions, and in the premiership. I remember not too long ago we had to poach the likes of Olly Kohn to fill the gaps left by injuries.

Unless none of you care about the Welsh national side, this is something that should concern everyone.

Simple fact of the matter is that NOBODY in world rugby can produce that many locks per team per season. As for our available locks; AWJ, Charteris, Davies, Ball, Day and at a stretch Evans. The next crop; Thornton, Beard, Joe Davies. I think we're fine and you're being stupid.

Just as a comparison to England ..

Top tier - Launchbury, Kruis, Lawes, Attwood
Fringe internationals - Slater, Kitchener
Next generation - Itoje, Barrow

Not bad at all given the extra teams we have. I'm only looking at the guys we're looking at as potential England players, there's a fair few experienced heads around at lock

[mikey_dragon]

I think we're fine and you're being stupid

Classy.

Simply put there is no other word for your behaviour. You regurgitate the same stuff over and over whilst failing to take on board common sense, the likes of which SS is telling you. There was this exact same issue on the Dragons thread 2 weeks ago. And you might not know it but before English and French teams became richer they would often be taking punts at these sort of players because they've played at a high level and would be available all year (injuries permitting). Ball, Day and this Saffa are good lock options - what I'm concerned about are the welsh qualified locks behind them who seem to be struggling at this level.

[LordDowlais]

what I'm concerned about are the welsh qualified locks behind them who seem to be struggling at this level.

And if you got off your arrogant high horse for five minutes and actually bothered reading what I was saying, you would see that I am saying the same thing. The trouble is with you, is the fact you think you know it all.

I have said numerous times that there is something seriously wrong somewhere within the system if we are not producing enough of the players needed to play at a professional level competitively.

[ScarletSpiderman]

I'd say we probably have a similar situation of NWQ props, I'd say that there are more NWQ props starting every week than locks.

Yes, I agree, although I have not checked, but off the top of my head I can think of Filise, Ma'afu(Cardiff),Ma'afu(Ospreys), Arhip, Stankovich.

It's an issue we should all be concerned about, unless you do not care about international rugby of course. But we only have 4 pro teams.

Also, George Earle is not Welsh and was not developed through the regions.

Fia as well at the Ospreys. Yet we have plenty of welsh props at the moment, and I would not say I was overly concerned with our options up front at all.

Also Earle is not NWQ, as you had him down as one. He is WQ, I don't like it but that is his status officially.

[mikey_dragon]

what I'm concerned about are the welsh qualified locks behind them who seem to be struggling at this level.

And if you got off your arrogant high horse for five minutes and actually bothered reading what I was saying, you would see that I am saying the same thing. The trouble is with you, is the fact you think you know it all.

I have said numerous times that there is something seriously wrong somewhere within the system if we are not producing enough of the players needed to play at a professional level competitively.

And that's why they have recruited a S15 player you moron.

As for your second statement, see mine and SS's comments above.

[LordDowlais]

Also Earle is not NWQ, as you had him down as one. He is WQ, I don't like it but that is his status officially.

Yes I agree. I do not like it either, but there is nothing we can do about it sadly. But that is for another debate.

[LordDowlais]

And that's why they have recruited a S15 player you moron.

You just keep oozing class on here mikey, sheer class.

It looks as though your name change experiment is not going as planned.

[LordDowlais]

Also, if the system is failing, then signing NWQ players is not the answer. The answer should be to fix the failing system. Not go around the problem by signing players from other countries.

[mikey_dragon]

Stop trying to change the subject because you're wrong. And nobody is saying the system is broke (is it even broke?), so that must be another discussion that's only happening in your head. We're telling you why Scarlets have made a good signing. Stop letting discussions with yourself spill over and ruin our threads please.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Guys, how about we just draw a line under this debate, as it is getting us nowhere. And is a pretty hefty deviation from the original thread now anyway.

[LordDowlais]

Guys, how about we just draw a line under this debate, as it is getting us nowhere.  And is a pretty hefty deviation from the original thread now anyway.  

fair enough.

although I was debating fine with you, until another member can on here de-railing things.

[mikey_dragon]

I didn't bring up the NWQ lock debate. So that's another stupid comment.

[Cardiff Dave]

Lord, do you know anything about this lad?  Played Super XV for the Blues Bulls and for the Southern Kings, and played a total of 30 out of 30 possible games.  Also a former baby Bok.  Given how good Johan Snyman, and  George Earle were for us over the past two seasons (before injury hit him badly), it is interesting to see that this lad has more experience coming in and is also younger (and more of physical presence too).

So out of interest, what one of our two lightweight welsh options at lock are as good?  Or are you telling me that Jack Jones is better?

You've gotta love this. SS, if he was any good, do you reckon he would be playing up here ? No, he has no chance at becoming a sprinbok so he has decided to take the ££££'s and play in the NH. 

If we are in a position where we find we need to sign these types of players then there is something seriously wrong with the Welsh system. This looks like a classic case of he's a second rower from South Africa so he must be good mentality. What is going wrong in Wales and is preventing us from developing our own players ?

Scarlets have had 4 NWQ locks over the last two or three seasons, FFS what is going on ? Why are we not developing players ? 

Oh, and to answer your question, NO I know nothing about this lad. Also, Jack Jones is not a bad player, he did well out in Italy, I am a good friend of his father, and if he turns out to be as good as his father then Scarlets will have a pretty handy player on their books.

So I guess you're not that qualified either to bang your NWQ drum?

[Cardiff Dave]

I didn't bring up the NWQ lock debate. So that's another stupid comment.

I did notice. It was classic LD on the previous page who caused the train to leave the track.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Pivac reckons that the Scarlets are almost in a position we have enough fit players available for him to select, or not, down to disciplinary record.

http://www.llanellistar.co.uk/Misbehaving-Scarlets-players-pay-places-says/story-28698660-detail/story.html

Also, Tom Williams and Lewis Rawlings join the injury list, with Earle and Tagicikibau returning, and Dai Bulbring in training already.

[True Raven]

Scarlets have signed Werner Kruger as tighthead from the blue bulls. Cover for when Samson lee is with wales which cant be bad news as their scrum has been demolished in past two games

[Cardiff Dave]

Scarlets have signed Werner Kruger as tighthead from the blue bulls.  Cover for when Samson lee is with wales which cant be bad news as their scrum has been demolished in past two games

Is he Welsh qualified at all?

[mikey_dragon]

Cheeky signing that is. I've heard of him, he's played at S15 level in the past but not sure what he's like these days. He's probably a step up on what's there right now though.

[Cardiff Dave]

Cheeky signing that is. I've heard of him, he's played at S15 level in the past but not sure what he's like these days. He's probably a step up on what's there right now though.

Any trace of Welsh DNA in him?

[ScarletSpiderman]

I had heard we were going to sign a capped South African prop, we were meant to be after Trevor Nyakane at one point. Kruger isn't such a high profile signing as I was hoping for, but that said he will be a vast improvement on Rhodri, and hopefully will mean we can keep Pete the Meat as a last resort, instead of as our second choice.

[ScarletSpiderman]

The Bulls’ tighthead prop made his Test debut in 2011 after anchoring the Pretoria team’s scrum for the last number of years. Werner Kruger is a no-nonsense front ranker who does the dirty work first before getting involved in the flashy stuff. He first played Vodacom Super Rugby in 2008 and has amassed more than 60 caps at this level of the game. He played off the bench in the second and third Tests against England in June 2012.
Position: Prop
Province: Blue Bulls
Springbok number: 828
Test debut: 23 July 2011 vs Australia in Sydney aged 26
Total tests: 4
Tour matches: 1
Total Springbok matches: 5
Win ratio: 1-2-1


Lifted from his SA Rugby bio.

[mikey_dragon]

So at 31(?) he should be in his prime, but probably won't be around for much longer. Good short term but shouldn't scarlets be looking long-term?

[ScarletSpiderman]

Mikey, I guess the long term we have Samson as our 1st choice for the foreseeable. We have had a few Wales under 20s props (Leung and Fawcett), so maybe we are hoping one of them comes good.

[mikey_dragon]

Yeah there is Lee obviously, but that guy's injury record has been horrendous so I wouldn't be relying solely on him!

[ScarletSpiderman]

That's true. Also just thinking we did go down the route of trying to convert Jack Payne (WQ Former Aus u20s back row/lock) into a tight head earlier on in the season due to our shortage of options. Not sure if the experiment is still on going or not. He seems to be down as a lock/back row when he is involved with the Scarlets but tight head at Llanelli still.

[wayne]

That's true.  Also just thinking we did go down the route of trying to convert Jack Payne (WQ Former Aus u20s back row/lock) into a tight head earlier on in the season due to our shortage of options.  Not sure if the experiment is still on going or not.  He seems to be down as a lock/back row when he is involved with the Scarlets but tight head at Llanelli still.

SS it is rife on our board that Jarvis is on his way to you, I just hope that both of us use Jarvis and Jones in their best position and that is loose head, neither are decent tight heads.

[ScarletSpiderman]

Wayne, from the sounds of it Jarvis is On his way, just I can't accept him as the future for either shirt seeing as we have younger better options. I'm hoping it's a bit like how we ended up linked to super Cai ever season somehow, only for it to never come true

[ScarletSpiderman]

We have officially announced Rhodri is off to the Ospreys at the end of the season. It's a shame that the wru were so desperate to find a replacement for Adam Jones and the scrum laws changing saw him going from a promising young prospect to where he is now. Hopefully the move will do him good.

[VinceWLB]

Maybe Scarlets and Ospreys are thinking a change of scenery will help Rhodri Jones and Jarvis? That's the only explanation i have. Ideally none of them would have re-signed contracts are they aren't up to standards as far as scrummaging is concerned. I'm actually surprised Scarlets haven't used Rhodri Jones in the 2nd row to make up for the lack of bulk there when only Price and Rawlins were available.

Also talks that the new saffa prop is a poor scrummager under the new rules. And to be fair this could be possible as he is pretty tall for a TH prop these days.

[wayne]

We have officially announced Rhodri is off to the Ospreys at the end of the season.  It's a shame that the wru were so desperate to find a replacement for Adam Jones and the scrum laws changing saw him going from a promising young prospect to where he is now.  Hopefully the move will do him good.

It's on our board now SS, i'll leave my comments to the Ospreys Topic.

[LordDowlais]

This is why Rhodri is off:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35593597

Another NWQ signing.

[ScarletSpiderman]

This is why Rhodri is off:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35593597

Another NWQ signing.

Yep that is why Rhodri is off. Let's ignore the fact he is currently third choice behind Welsh international Samson Lee and fellow Welshman Pete Edwards. Oh, and next season he would have been behind Welsh international Samson Lee, Welsh international Aaron Jarvis, fellow Welshman Peter Edwards and South African international Werner Kruger.

But I'm glad to see you have stuck to your guns re: NWQ players, when you said that if we were to be bringing in good NWQ you would have no issues. As after all prop that was the first ever player to have racked up 100 appearances for the Blue Bulls, and has a handful of South African international caps is obviously just a joke of a player who is nowhere near as good as the lads who are running out for Haverfodwest RFC.

[RiscaGame]

This is why Rhodri is off:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35593597

Another NWQ signing.

Yep that is why Rhodri is off. Let's ignore the fact he is currently third choice behind Welsh international Samson Lee and fellow Welshman Pete Edwards. Oh, and next season he would have been behind Welsh international Samson Lee, Welsh international Aaron Jarvis, fellow Welshman Peter Edwards and South African international Werner Kruger.

But I'm glad to see you have stuck to your guns re: NWQ players, when you said that if we were to be bringing in good NWQ you would have no issues. As after all prop that was the first ever player to have racked up 100 appearances for the Blue Bulls, and has a handful of South African international caps is obviously just a joke of a player who is nowhere near as good as the lads who are running out for Haverfodwest RFC.

Great post. Good signing, well done Scarlets.

[True Raven]

This is why Rhodri is off:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35593597

Another NWQ signing.

Yep that is why Rhodri is off.  Let's ignore the fact he is currently third choice behind Welsh international Samson Lee and fellow Welshman Pete Edwards.  Oh, and next season he would have been behind Welsh international Samson Lee, Welsh international Aaron Jarvis, fellow Welshman Peter Edwards and South African international Werner Kruger.

But I'm glad to see you have stuck to your guns re: NWQ players, when you said that if we were to be bringing in good NWQ you would have no issues.  As after all prop that was the first ever player to have racked up 100 appearances for the Blue Bulls, and has a handful of South African international caps is obviously just a joke of a player who is nowhere near as good as the lads who are running out for Haverfodwest RFC.

Great post. Good signing, well done Scarlets.

Seeing the scrum seriously struggle against connacht when the internationals were away means that a NWQ or several were neccesary, otherwise Scarlets are going to struggle during international windows and these types of signing will help.....hopefully

[wayne]

This is why Rhodri is off:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35593597

Another NWQ signing.

Yep that is why Rhodri is off.  Let's ignore the fact he is currently third choice behind Welsh international Samson Lee and fellow Welshman Pete Edwards.  Oh, and next season he would have been behind Welsh international Samson Lee, Welsh international Aaron Jarvis, fellow Welshman Peter Edwards and South African international Werner Kruger.

But I'm glad to see you have stuck to your guns re: NWQ players, when you said that if we were to be bringing in good NWQ you would have no issues.  As after all prop that was the first ever player to have racked up 100 appearances for the Blue Bulls, and has a handful of South African international caps is obviously just a joke of a player who is nowhere near as good as the lads who are running out for Haverfodwest RFC.

Great post. Good signing, well done Scarlets.

Seeing the scrum seriously struggle against connacht when the internationals were away means that a NWQ or several were neccesary, otherwise Scarlets are going to struggle during international windows and these types of signing will help.....hopefully

Yes have to endorse the last 3 posts in this block, refuting the first.

[LordDowlais]

But I'm glad to see you have stuck to your guns re: NWQ players, when you said that if we were to be bringing in good NWQ you would have no issues. As after all prop that was the first ever player to have racked up 100 appearances for the Blue Bulls, and has a handful of South African international caps is obviously just a joke of a player who is nowhere near as good as the lads who are running out for Haverfodwest RFC.

I totally disagree, he is not a joke of a signing, and I stick by my words about bringing in quality and have not said any different. Why the aggressiveness  ?

[True Raven]

But I'm glad to see you have stuck to your guns re: NWQ players, when you said that if we were to be bringing in good NWQ you would have no issues. As after all prop that was the first ever player to have racked up 100 appearances for the Blue Bulls, and has a handful of South African international caps is obviously just a joke of a player who is nowhere near as good as the lads who are running out for Haverfodwest RFC.

I totally disagree, he is not a joke of a signing, and I stick by my words about bringing in quality and have not said any different. Why the aggressiveness  ?

How do you decide who's quality though?

If you take the Ospreys, Arhip, Hassler and Ardron are all key players when fit yet were all playing semi-pro rugby when the Ospreys signed them. Sometimes you need to take a punt on players and live within your means

[LordDowlais]

How do you decide who's quality though?

Well I would compare it with a signing a proven international to signing somebody nobody as ever heard of. Yes I admit, you can get lucky, like with the players you have mentioned, although I think Arhip's rise to prominence is more down to the Ospreys input, but it's when we sign players that nobody else would touch with a barge pole. Players with dodgy injury records, and players who other sides have released as they are not deemed good enough, that's what I want to see the back of.

[ScarletSpiderman]

But I'm glad to see you have stuck to your guns re: NWQ players, when you said that if we were to be bringing in good NWQ you would have no issues. As after all prop that was the first ever player to have racked up 100 appearances for the Blue Bulls, and has a handful of South African international caps is obviously just a joke of a player who is nowhere near as good as the lads who are running out for Haverfodwest RFC.

I totally disagree, he is not a joke of a signing, and I stick by my words about bringing in quality and have not said any different. Why the aggressiveness  ?

Not sure it is aggressiveness as such. I as going for more, tongue in cheek mockery.

I am struggling to see any non-welsh player who could be signed by the regions who would meet your requirements to be classed as a good signing. The Scarlets have signed a lock with Super XV experience, who is still young enough to be classed by the union as a time server, but he was dismissed as not good enough. We have now signed a player with vast SuperXV experience, and who has been capped by the Springboks. But he is a 'joke of a signing'. I'm pretty sure the Ospreys signed JJ Englebrecht on loan, even though he was in the RWC for the 'Boks, and it was dismissed as an unnecessary signing (apologies if I am wrong there).

The Scarlets have a full front row off with team wales (featuring in the math day 23 too), we apparently signing Aaron Jarvis who is currently with Wales, and we would quite likely have lost Emyr Phillips to team wales too if he were not crocked, I think us signing a front row player with experience who will be available for us during the international window is hugely important.

Our stable of props for next season is as follows

Rob Evans (Welsh int), Phil John (Welsh but getting very old now), Dylan Evans (Welsh), Wyn Jones (Welsh), Rhys Fawcett (Welsh)
Samson Lee (Welsh int), Will Taylor (Welsh), Pete Edwards (Welsh, but getting extremely old), Werner Kruger (SA Int), Ben Leung (Welsh), Aaron Jarvis (Welsh int, if the signing is confirmed).

It is not like Kruger is coming here and forcing lads out of

[LordDowlais]

We have now signed a player with vast SuperXV experience, and who has been capped by the Springboks. But he is a 'joke of a signing'

Who has said he is a 'joke of a signing' ? A player of that caliber can add a lot to Welsh rugby. I hope he is an inspiration to the younger props at the region and he teaches them a few things.

[ScarletSpiderman]

We have now signed a player with vast SuperXV experience, and who has been capped by the Springboks. But he is a 'joke of a signing'

Who has said he is a 'joke of a signing' ? A player of that caliber can add a lot to Welsh rugby. I hope he is an inspiration to the younger props at the region and he teaches them a few things.

Oops, my bad I mis-read your post "he is not a joke of a signing", didn't see the not.

So why the negativity about Rhodri leaving and Werner joining, given that Rhodri and Jarvis are pretty much just a straight trade?

[LordDowlais]

So why the negativity about Rhodri leaving and Werner joining, given that Rhodri and Jarvis are pretty much just a straight trade?

I have not been negative about it, I would not have minded if Scarlets kept Rhodri AND signed Werner, perhaps Werner could have given him some advice and brought Rhodri on, after all Werner is 31 and has a lot of experience. 

I only hope, that the people who got Arhip to the level he is at Ospreys, can do the same with Rhodri.

[ScarletSpiderman]

So why the negativity about Rhodri leaving and Werner joining, given that Rhodri and Jarvis are pretty much just a straight trade?

I have not been negative about it, I would not have minded if Scarlets kept Rhodri AND signed Werner, perhaps Werner could have given him some advice and brought Rhodri on, after all Werner is 31 and has a lot of experience. 

I only hope, that the people who got Arhip to the level he is at Ospreys, can do the same with Rhodri.

I took the following as you being negative about it, and I believe I was not alone in that opinion

This is why Rhodri is off:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/35593597

Another NWQ signing.

But hey-ho, the joys of text-based communications, things are always open to the interpretation of the reader and quite often get miss interpreted because of that.

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