Lets talk about the New Zealand Māori team

First a few facts to kick things off*:

• 1st international test was v Ireland in 1888 which of course because they are from New Zealand they won comfortably. They subsequently lost to England and Wales.
  

• The tour was organised by Joseph Warbrick who played on the tour. His father was English and mother Māori.
  

• The original team included 5 brothers from the Warbrick family.
  

• Just like their all black counterparts they have never lost to Ireland in two tests.
  

• Whereas in the past it was enough to look like you might have Maori heritage nowadays selection is strictly to have verified Māori "whakapapa" or genealogy.
  

• It was in fact the Māori team who first pioneered the haka before games, the black jersey and silver fern.
  

• The Māori now perform the "Timatanga" haka, which describes the evolution of life and the creation of New Zealand from the four winds.
  

*To the esteemed New Zealand posters please feel free to correct me on anything I am wrong on.

Now for a few questions:

Do you think that The New Zealand Maori team is a great idea or a relic from the past?

I think most people would agree that the New Zealand Maori team has a great tradition, is a force for good and its intentions are pure despite obviously basing its selection criteria on racial grounds.

So could this model of inclusion for developing indigenous talent be applied to the South African case or is a South African solution required for a South African problem?

I'd like to see the same model in Ireland.

The Irish team could be made up predominately by descendants from the Ulster plantation settlers and let the indigenous Irish play for the wolfhounds.

Whereas in the past it was enough to look like you might have Maori heritage nowadays selection is strictly to have verified Māori "whakapapa" or genealogy.

Some Maori are just 64th blood and there lies the problem how Maori do you have to be?

Unfortunately Maori topics are very political in NZ and heads turn rather than discuss topics. I do hope the Maori team continues but with stronger Maori blood lines.

Many Maori tell you they can give their whakapapa all the way back to the waka that brought their first relatives to NZ although I feel this is total BS in the nicest possible way

rodders wrote:I'd like to see the same model in Ireland.

The Irish team could be made up predominately by descendants from the Ulster plantation settlers and let the indigenous Irish play for the wolfhounds.

I think a better model would be to have an Irish team made up of people from all four provinces and a second team of indigenous Munster men to help meet quotas of Munster players in Irish teams and encourage disgruntled Munster folk to start supporting Ireland again.

I would have thought that having a South African "indigenous" team risks worsening racial issues, rather than improving them. Would it just become a cop out to stick the best black players in there, rather than the Springboks? Would it account for all of the ethnic groups in SA? Would you then have to have quotas for ethnic groups, Zulus vs Xhosa vs Coloured vs Other Black African?

Plus, it wouldn't help with the main developmental issue, which is access to facilities and coaching. That issue doesn't exist for the Maori, so it's a bit of a different case.

Mind you, a team of Zulus could do a great war dance. Would be much better than the haka.

rainbow-warrior wrote:Whereas in the past it was enough to look like you might have Maori heritage nowadays selection is strictly to have verified Māori "whakapapa" or genealogy.

Some Maori are just 64th blood and there lies the problem how Maori do you have to be?  

Unfortunately Maori topics are very political in NZ and heads turn rather than discuss topics.  I do hope the Maori team continues but with stronger Maori blood lines.

Many Maori tell you they can give their whakapapa all the way back to the waka that brought their first relatives to NZ although I feel this is total BS in the nicest possible way

Yes it is a tough thing to talk about without offending someone but I find it interesting.

It's got it's place in history along with the Barbarians and Lions, though any talk of them having their own national team, which has happened in the past is a bit off limits. If both ends of Ireland can behave and get along for rugby then New Zealand should also.

I feel that suggesting a special South African team for African players would be seen as a huge step backwards.

In the same way, while I don't feel that strongly either way about the NZ Maori, I thick they are a bit of a relic and now that the All Blacks are far more connected to Maori culture and traditions, there is no need to have a separate team.

GunsGerms wrote:

rodders wrote:I'd like to see the same model in Ireland.

The Irish team could be made up predominately by descendants from the Ulster plantation settlers and let the indigenous Irish play for the wolfhounds.

I think a better model would be to have an Irish team made up of people from all four provinces and a second team of indigenous Munster men to help meet quotas of Munster players in Irish teams and encourage disgruntled Munster folk to start supporting Ireland again.

Hey thought the same guns but didn't want to say unless the fiecers poached O'Connell, Ryan and Murray on us.... they can have Zebo though ...

Bathman_in_London wrote:I feel that suggesting a special South African team for African players would be seen as a huge step backwards.

In the same way, while I don't feel that strongly either way about the NZ Maori, I thick they are a bit of a relic and now that the All Blacks are far more connected to Maori culture and traditions, there is no need to have a separate team.

I am not suggesting segregation but just as a method of exposing indigenous talent that aren't quite ready to break into the Boks team to high level international test rugby. I dont think that is a bad thing.

There are enough tours to SA to make it worthwhile.

It was actually called "THE NATIVES" side a total of 107 matches played in Britain,
Australia,and New Zealand Tour lasted 18 months.won 78 lost 43 d 6.
Star was half back Paddy Keogh,among his claims to fame was suspended for match fixing.
New Zealand Maori have alternated with NZ Juniors as there A side have contested and
won both Churchill and Pacific Cups in there time.
Waikato,North Auckland,and Manawatu were ready breeding Provinces in
Amateur days and contested against Touring sides.
When finances permit they make the odd Tour and are a useful development
tool.
At one time the Boks did a Zulu War dance too[1956?]

No-one wants to see a Scotland XV comprising 15 pastey white locals with bad skin, low muscle mass and ginger hair. Let's not go there.

emack2 wrote:It was actually called "THE NATIVES" side a total of 107 matches played in Britain,
Australia,and New Zealand Tour lasted 18 months.won 78 lost 43 d 6.
Star was half back Paddy Keogh,among his claims to fame was suspended for match fixing.

Arithmetic not always my forte but I reckon that makes 127.

They toured all over the world stats are from Wikipedia plus my own memory records
include Victoria rules,and Soccer matches did not bother to include same.

A south African team for Africans and coloureds??? I believe their was one during the apartheid era. The last thing people need in SA is more racial divisions I'm afraid.

The difference is that the Maori whilst the indigenous population, they are a medium-small minority in their own country. Different to SA where the indigenous population make up 85% of the population.

The way to bring more Africans and Coloureds into the game is to break the provincial stronghold of the union and form competition within cities. Cape Town could easily hold 2 financially strong sides...but they only have 1. That means 40% of all supporters of rugby in the country support 1 team.... for a country of 50million thats not good. Not good when there is only room for x amount of academy kids.

No surprise chaps like Scott Spedding got 1 lousy super rugby cap. Antonie Claassen the same, Mouritz Botha barely got a Currie Cup cap.

If England and France are capping these guys, guys getting wins over 3N sides, then they can't be worthless. Botha returned to perform reasonably well for the Sharks this year, as did Matt Stevens.

GunsGerms, for the Maori All Blacks to become a relic of the past would mean that the Maori race would have to become extinct, so no, it is not a relic of the past.

The original team was originally going to be a Maori team. It got renamed the natives as it included a few pakeha. From memory it was mostly made up of players from tribes that had allied with the Crown. Shouldn't be a surprise similarities with the AB's given 1st AB's captain was on the the tour. Ellison, founded our club here in Wellington (and was pioneering strategist in the NZ game). Apparently the tour was so brutal (2-3 games a week for a year) that they all died young (Ellison went mad).

I have to say I think it's a bit of a relic, very Victorian. However, grew up in a small rural Maori town and nephews and nieces are all Maori and the team means something to them. I guess that's all that matters really.

I like the idea. They played a series against Japan....now the Japs have defeated South Africa!! Would be nice if WR get behind them and use them as a developmental tool for the other tier two nations to gain experience against