Craig Joubert

First topic message reminder :

Well he feckin is !  lets make sure we do it boys ?

I think there's a few very important steps missing there.

123456789. wrote:Score in the 78th Minute 34-32
Scotland mess up their own lineout, knock the ball on
Scotland player in an offside position goes down on the ball and puts the referee in a position where he has to make a snap judgment on who touched it last
Referee gives incorrect penalty, as proven by World Rugby
79th Minute 35-35
Final Score 35-34.

A very simple lineout win and a safe kick to touch and we're not having this conversation. They didn't take the referee out of the equation and that's why they lost.

temporary21 wrote:It WAS a knock on, what the penalty for that is was not clear to me. So the match woud have still been live with an attacking scrum, all because of a terrible line out...
I mean the point is this is like the anger stage of grief, I think some of the stuff being said about a man for an understandable and uncorrectable mistake are out of order

I can agree with that and have not criticised him in my posts. The line out was rubbish leading to the knock on. Scotland's fault. However as I said there was much more chance of scoring from an unopposed penalty than from winning a scrum and getting points via a try,drop goal, or further penalty.

Of course, it goes maybe 50-50 if by a miracle he sees the correct call from the wrong side and no help. Even then though it could still have been heartbreak, and then 100% their own fault

majesticimperialman wrote:Scotland's game against Australia was better than either England or Wales, at least they scored more try's, and took the game to the wire.

But like all NH teams they lost it in the last 2/3 minutes of the game, and i do think it is unfair to blame the referee. He made his decision on what (he saw) may be if he had gone to the TMO the out come might of been different.

They also conceded more than Wales. You know, the ones you've been trying to wind up for some absurd reason.

It's very hard to decipher your second paragraph. No need for the brackets for a start. Also, I thought the consensus was he couldn't use the TMO?

Just reading Matt Dawsons comment. One guy I really can't abide.


Matt DawsonVerified account ‏@matt9dawson Oct 18
Craig Joubert you are a disgrace and should never referee again!! How dare you sprint off the pitch after that decision!!! #RWC2015

Can't stand the guy. When BT sports expanded and he was added he just seems to try and be funny. And fails.

Risca Rev wrote:...Also, I thought the consensus was he couldn't use the TMO?

It's a moveable feast.

World Rugby tried to put this to bed by saying Joubert couldn't have called on the TMO. Subsequently, however, it has been argued that Joubert could have used a pretext to bring the TMO into play, or just simply decided to ignore protocol and ask for a view.

At the time, it never occurred to me the TMO should be involved. I just thought Joubert had made a maddeningly unsympathetic decision because there was so much he couldn't have seen.

He gave the penalty based on what he saw. At the time I fully agreed with him.

Turns out we were wrong - but he is neither the first nor the last ref to make a mistake. World Rugby has identified many mistakes through the world cup - once you have the ability to rewatch and see different angles. Several games have seen results that would have been different had such decisions been made "correctly".


Joubert is now in the long line of refs who are demonised by disapointed fans and blood-sucking media. I have to say his mistake is actually rather minor compared to the one Gavin Hastings, who has been so fast to spout off, made that probably cost Scotland a place in the 1991 final.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:...Also, I thought the consensus was he couldn't use the TMO?

It's a moveable feast.

World Rugby tried to put this to bed by saying Joubert couldn't have called on the TMO. Subsequently, however, it has been argued that Joubert could have used a pretext to bring the TMO into play, or just simply decided to ignore protocol and ask for a view.

At the time, it never occurred to me the TMO should be involved. I just thought Joubert had made a maddeningly unsympathetic decision because there was so much he couldn't have seen.

I certainly agree it would've been better for Joubert to ignore protocol. He wouldn't have been hung out to dry by his bosses publicly for a start, for ensuring he made a correct decision. Though he may have got a telling off privately for reaching a correct decision via incorrect protocols, it certainly would've been a better outcome for him. I can't see how he can ref internationally again now.

Notch wrote:I think there's a few very important steps missing there.

123456789. wrote:Score in the 78th Minute 34-32
Scotland mess up their own lineout, knock the ball on
Scotland player in an offside position goes down on the ball and puts the referee in a position where he has to make a snap judgment on who touched it last
Referee gives incorrect penalty, as proven by World Rugby
79th Minute 35-35
Final Score 35-34.

A very simple lineout win and a safe kick to touch and we're not having this conversation. They didn't take the referee out of the equation and that's why they lost.

No I don't accept that, the referee made the wrong decision, Australia scored the penalty, Australia won the game as a result. If you want to take it further the lineout came from a Hogg kick, Hogg was tackled late, penalty for Scotland and potentially a yellow card, a minute taken on the penalty and then a lineout, and Australia have to win the lineout and have one play to win it from 40-50 yds plus. Let's keep it simple the referee gave the wrong penalty decision and it cost Scotland in a big way, especially when you consider our recent record against Argentina.

Of course if Scotland had taken more restarts and had got the lineout right we'd probably have won but it works the same way for Australia, the fact remains that the three most contentious decisions in the game went against Scotland, two of them inarguably incorrectly the sin bin was ambiguous. My issue is that it seems that some poor referees always seem to give the favourites the benefit of the doubt Joubert to me is one of them, we saw it in 2011 and we saw it on sunday, I'm not saying he's a deliberate cheat but he made a huge error my issue with him on a personal level is how he took off after he blew his whistle, that to me was a disgrace and contrary to the spirit of the game, in much the same way that Hogg's dive against South Africawas an insult to the game so was Joubert's behaviour, the difference is that Hogg was publicly humiliated and stood and took the abuse in front of a packed stadium before apologising, that doesn't make it ok but I will be stunned if Joubert is brought to account like Hogg and even moreso if he publicly apologises for disrespecting both captains, both teams and the game by refusing to acknowledge two teams that had given everything for 80 minutes and 15 men whose dreams had been ended on account of his incorrect, whilst not deliberate, call.

LondonTiger wrote:I have to say his mistake is actually rather minor compared to the one Gavin Hastings, who has been so fast to spout off, made that probably cost Scotland a place in the 1991 final.

Yep.

Notch wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I have to say his mistake is actually rather minor compared to the one Gavin Hastings, who has been so fast to spout off, made that probably cost Scotland a place in the 1991 final.

Yep.

So a legend of a game can't comment on poor decisions because he missed a kick 24 years ago? You're playing devil's advocate here.

HammerofThunor wrote:Can't stand the guy. When BT sports expanded and he was added he just seems to try and be funny. And fails.

True. It just makes him even more annoying.

123456789. wrote:

Notch wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I have to say his mistake is actually rather minor compared to the one Gavin Hastings, who has been so fast to spout off, made that probably cost Scotland a place in the 1991 final.

Yep.

So a legend of a game can't comment on poor decisions because he missed a kick 24 years ago? You're playing devil's advocate here.

No, but there are raging double standards about how we react when a player makes an error and when a referee makes an error.

Is it time to look into the rule surrounding accidental offside? Most of the times its 'accidental' so why not just a scrum? And while they're at it, maybe look into the rule about collapsing the legalised offside play of the rolling maul. Again, should be a scrum, didn't it use to be this? How about allowing the TMO to have the right to be asked to look at 'anything' in the last five minutes so we don't have refs making incorrect game changing decisions.

Notch wrote:

123456789. wrote:

Notch wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I have to say his mistake is actually rather minor compared to the one Gavin Hastings, who has been so fast to spout off, made that probably cost Scotland a place in the 1991 final.

Yep.

So a legend of a game can't comment on poor decisions because he missed a kick 24 years ago? You're playing devil's advocate here.

No, but there are raging double standards about how we react when a player makes an error and when a referee makes an error.

Well of course but a player has to face questioning from the media about mistakes, and a player has to go and face his teammates in the changing room after, my issue with Craig Joubert isn't the decision that ultimately cost Scotland the game, mistakes happen, he is a bad referee and I've felt that for a long time but he only chose to be a referee not which matches he officiates, it's not his fault he's been thrown in at a level he can't handle. What I have found unforgivable and what Gavin Hastings has also is the way he sprinted from the pitch. If as some have argued he watched his mistake on the big screen and realised he'd made the wrong call and therefore made a break for it as soon as possible as to avoid the flak from players and fans then that to me is a really poor act and contrary to the values of the game, a player has to face up to his mistakes. I'd have a lot of respect for Craig Joubert if he gave an interview apologising for his mistakes and apologised for refusing to acknowledge the teams after the game and or gave a valid decision to do so.

123456789. wrote:

Notch wrote:

123456789. wrote:

Notch wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I have to say his mistake is actually rather minor compared to the one Gavin Hastings, who has been so fast to spout off, made that probably cost Scotland a place in the 1991 final.

Yep.

So a legend of a game can't comment on poor decisions because he missed a kick 24 years ago? You're playing devil's advocate here.

No, but there are raging double standards about how we react when a player makes an error and when a referee makes an error.

Well of course but a player has to face questioning from the media about mistakes, and a player has to go and face his teammates in the changing room after, my issue with Craig Joubert isn't the decision that ultimately cost Scotland the game, mistakes happen, he is a bad referee and I've felt that for a long time but he only chose to be a referee not which matches he officiates, it's not his fault he's been thrown in at a level he can't handle. What I have found unforgivable and what Gavin Hastings has also is the way he sprinted from the pitch. If as some have argued he watched his mistake on the big screen and realised he'd made the wrong call and therefore made a break for it as soon as possible as to avoid the flak from players and fans then that to me is a really poor act and contrary to the values of the game, a player has to face up to his mistakes. I'd have a lot of respect for Craig Joubert if he gave an interview apologising for his mistakes and apologised for refusing to acknowledge the teams after the game and or gave a valid decision to do so.

Just a thought how would feel if he apologised. Just to Australia for the clear and obvious scrum ruling mistakes. My point being it was a close game and penalty counts were close. There are a number of contentious calls, albeit the last was poor (he actually made the same call earlier in the game and got praised for his speed and knowledge - the issue with the second is that he missed a touch by Aussie player). They all had an influence on the outcome. I can understand where you are coming from. I'd like Owens to apologise for his poor handling of the tackle and scrum in last weekend game. I'd like to see him improve. I'm not sure it makes us feel better though. Lawrence apologised for his mistakes in 2011 and many South African fans have yet to forgive him. Barnes on the other side never apologised for his role in 2007, many kiwis eventually forgave him. I suspect times a healer.

blackcanelion wrote: Lawrence apologised for his mistakes in 2011 and many South African fans have yet to forgive him. Barnes on the other side never apologised for his role in 2007, many kiwis eventually forgave him. I suspect times a healer.

I am over the Lawrence decision, but we were very hard on him.  I did feel that we were getting the bad end of the stick the whole game through though, but I am probably biased.  When your team is playing logic normally flies through the window.

Barnes really wouldn't have been able to see the forward pass from where he was standing though (Kaplan had a better view and didn't pick it up either) , and it also helps that the All Blacks try just before also had an allowed forward pass in there.  So it feels evened out.  But then again I am neutral here.

On Joubert, I rewatched the game without replays and couldn't see much wrong.  I could only pick up on the errors with replays so I don't think he was biased, even though he did make a few mistakes. He also shouldn't have run of the field.

I think to forgive is devine. Or something like that.

Has the All Blacks forgiven Barnes?

Has the Springboks forgiven Lawrence?

Will the Springboks forgive Poite?

Will Scotland forgive Joiberts?

More so has the French forgiven Joubert?

How does forgiveness in a rugby sense work anyway?

Do I forgive Meyer for losing to Japan? Why would
I?

Meh, it is what it is.

123456789. wrote:

Notch wrote:I think there's a few very important steps missing there.

123456789. wrote:Score in the 78th Minute 34-32
Scotland mess up their own lineout, knock the ball on
Scotland player in an offside position goes down on the ball and puts the referee in a position where he has to make a snap judgment on who touched it last
Referee gives incorrect penalty, as proven by World Rugby
79th Minute 35-35
Final Score 35-34.

A very simple lineout win and a safe kick to touch and we're not having this conversation. They didn't take the referee out of the equation and that's why they lost.

No I don't accept that, the referee made the wrong decision, Australia scored the penalty, Australia won the game as a result. If you want to take it further the lineout came from a Hogg kick, Hogg was tackled late, penalty for Scotland and potentially a yellow card, a minute taken on the penalty and then a lineout, and Australia have to win the lineout and have one play to win it from 40-50 yds plus. Let's keep it simple the referee gave the wrong penalty decision and it cost Scotland in a big way, especially when you consider our recent record against Argentina.

Of course if Scotland had taken more restarts and had got the lineout right we'd probably have won but it works the same way for Australia, the fact remains that the three most contentious decisions in the game went against Scotland, two of them inarguably incorrectly the sin bin was ambiguous. My issue is that it seems that some poor referees always seem to give the favourites the benefit of the doubt Joubert to me is one of them, we saw it in 2011 and we saw it on sunday, I'm not saying he's a deliberate cheat but he made a huge error my issue with him on a personal level is how he took off after he blew his whistle, that to me was a disgrace and contrary to the spirit of the game, in much the same way that Hogg's dive against South Africawas an insult to the game so was Joubert's behaviour, the difference is that Hogg was publicly humiliated and stood and took the abuse in front of a packed stadium before apologising, that doesn't make it ok but I will be stunned if Joubert is brought to account like Hogg and even moreso if he publicly apologises for disrespecting both captains, both teams and the game by refusing to acknowledge two teams that had given everything for 80 minutes and 15 men whose dreams had been ended on account of his incorrect, whilst not deliberate, call.

+1

Now that World Rugby has done their mea culpa, people can say what they want about the team's aggregate shortcomings but it what this does mean is that it is absolutely unsustainable to argue that Scotland did not lose because of Joubert's decision. The entire point of the WR statement was taking the sting out of the post-match debate by simply admitting that it did. With refereering decisions, you can make a presumption that all other aspects of the game can be assumed to remain the same because no additional stops or starts happened in general play. And it would be more worthy of the sport in general if people stopped being disingeneous and claiming that it is more likely in the remaining 45 seconds of the match for Australia to have won the scrum and knocked over a drop goal or scored a try. People can persist with this if they wish, but that is categorical nonsense given player fatigue and lashing rain. An overwhelmingly likely alternative scenario is that Scotland won the scrum or the move would break down in the midfield mud.

The other suggestion that keeps cropping up here - that people would be similarly disengaged and cooly detached in their views about this if this happened to their team - is both as completely unlikely as it seems and also does not take this debate much further forward. People seem to want their views to be respected on these boards but past professionals and other professional pundits whose job it is to talk about the sport are apparently not allowed to comment on the match or Joubert. Why is this, exactly?

Finally and more importantly, I think that you would need a heart of kevlar not to feel sorry for Joubert. If he ran off at the end because he panicked, then he wouldn't be the first person in the world to find himself in a situation where he had no idea what to do. I think that he is too whistle happy and he does have previous (Super Rugby final when the Crusaders lost, the last RWC final) but I wouldn't wish the merdestorm on anyone.

Biltong wrote:I think to forgive is devine. Or something like that.

Has the All Blacks forgiven Barnes?

Has the Springboks forgiven Lawrence?

Will the Springboks forgive Poite?

Will Scotland forgive Joiberts?

More so has the French forgiven Joubert?

How does forgiveness in a rugby sense work anyway?

Do I forgive Meyer for losing to Japan? Why would
I?

Meh, it is what it is.

Eva Green has still not agreed to marry me. Took me a long while to forgive her for that.

And that restraining order thing was a bit much, I thought.

FerN wrote:

blackcanelion wrote: Lawrence apologised for his mistakes in 2011 and many South African fans have yet to forgive him. Barnes on the other side never apologised for his role in 2007, many kiwis eventually forgave him. I suspect times a healer.

I am over the Lawrence decision, but we were very hard on him.  I did feel that we were getting the bad end of the stick the whole game through though, but I am probably biased.  When your team is playing logic normally flies through the window.

Barnes really wouldn't have been able to see the forward pass from where he was standing though (Kaplan had a better view and didn't pick it up either) , and it also helps that the All Blacks try just before also had an allowed forward pass in there.  So it feels evened out.  But then again I am neutral here.

I think most people here are finally over the forward pass. It's one of those things that gets missed because refs are human. I think the penalty count was much bigger issue for most people. The general consensus was he froze and given we've had him a bit since then I've sealed it off in a black box in my brain. I don't dare open it up, but it's amazing to think what expensive therapy will do, eventually.......

Yeah it was not 'just' the forward pass in 2007 but his inability to penalise the French 'for anything' in kickable range for over half the game because he was too chicken livered to be the one that had any influence on who won the game.

ebop wrote:Is it time to look into the rule surrounding accidental offside? Most of the times its 'accidental' so why not just a scrum? And while they're at it, maybe look into the rule about collapsing the legalised offside play of the rolling maul. Again, should be a scrum, didn't it use to be this? How about allowing the TMO to have the right to be asked to look at 'anything' in the last five minutes so we don't have refs making incorrect game changing decisions.

Accidental offside IS a scrum. Deliberate offside is a penalty.

HammerofThunor wrote:

ebop wrote:Is it time to look into the rule surrounding accidental offside? Most of the times its 'accidental' so why not just a scrum? And while they're at it, maybe look into the rule about collapsing the legalised offside play of the rolling maul. Again, should be a scrum, didn't it use to be this? How about allowing the TMO to have the right to be asked to look at 'anything' in the last five minutes so we don't have refs making incorrect game changing decisions.

Accidental offside IS a scrum. Deliberate offside is a penalty.

I think ebop's point is why not change the rule to a straight scrum irrespective of whether it's on purpose or accidental.

It's the responsibility of World Rugby and the rugby unions around the world to produce the best referees they can. At some time it might be worth discussing how much resource goes into that in a professional sport that is open to a lot of interpretation. It's also their responsibility to constantly review the game, it's laws and guidelines to minimise the wrong decisions that humans, with the best intention, make.

My school sports teacher used to tell us before a match that wrong calls will always be made and if we can't deal with that, we shouldn't take the field.

Some people should be ashamed of the language used about Joubert, there should be no place for it in rugby.

I've been listening to interviews with ex and current referees. Even the British ones have been horrified by world rugby's treatment of Joubert. One English international referee from the 80's said he used to get off the field quickly as he'd been assaulted on at least 3 occasions. I know we have that problem here at club level. My sons coach was a liability when it came to refs (it was embarrassing).

As much as I have trouble with refs, I think social media like here is the place to whinge, not at the game, and not by players, mainstream media or the administration immediately after the game. I think The likes of Gavin Hastings should have held off for at least 24 hours.

Personal insults on the mans character because people are upset their team lost does not constitute criticism...

Joubert was completely wrong to leg it. No excuses.

For me, the whole ethos of rugby needs to change, to many nations ingrain their teams both at club level and international level to not take the field and play rugby, but to take the field and see what they can get away with. Then all of a sudden it is up to the referees to sort this mess out.

Take Nigel Owens, he gets massive praise for letting the game flow, and turning a blind eye to things all for the spirit of the game. That is bollox. For me it should not be up to the ref to enforce the spirit of the game, it should be up to the players. If the players took to the field and just played rugby instead of trying to cheat at every opportunity then we would not have so much nonsense. Nigel Owens in my opinion is one of the worst refs around.

So for people who are bitching and moaning, if you are going to have a go at the refs, then you need to seriously have a go at the players as well. I see it in the Pro12 every week, referees not giving decisions to let the game flow, give me a ref that pings every thing and dishes out cards left right and center, any time. We will soon see a change, and a change for the better. We have a go at refs, but the players and coaches make it hard for them, do not cheat, and have refs who are not afraid to enforce the laws.

blackcanelion wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

ebop wrote:Is it time to look into the rule surrounding accidental offside? Most of the times its 'accidental' so why not just a scrum? And while they're at it, maybe look into the rule about collapsing the legalised offside play of the rolling maul. Again, should be a scrum, didn't it use to be this? How about allowing the TMO to have the right to be asked to look at 'anything' in the last five minutes so we don't have refs making incorrect game changing decisions.

Accidental offside IS a scrum. Deliberate offside is a penalty.

I think ebop's point is why not change the rule to a straight scrum irrespective of whether it's on purpose or accidental.

Good way of stopping a turnover resulting from your team's mistake. THAT's why it's a penalty because rather than quick turnover ball you get a scrum.

No Idea if this has been suggested on the forum but these types of errors as we just saw can decide games and needs to be fixed.
Why not introduce a captains call where the captain is allowed say 2 calls a game where he feels the decision made was incorrect. That would eliminate 99pc of the silly error made on Sunday which absolutley effected the result.
Integrity is all important. And no it won't slow the game down a jot.

alive555 wrote:No Idea if this has been suggested on the forum but these types of errors as we just saw can decide games and needs to be fixed.
Why not introduce a captains call where the captain is allowed say 2 calls a game where he feels the decision made was incorrect. That would eliminate 99pc of the silly error made on Sunday which absolutley effected the result.
Integrity is all important.  And no it won't slow the game down a jot.

No, there's too much video assessment as their is. I'd be happy with a captains review instead of the refs going upstairs for tries and video refs coming down for foul play. Only if it's limited to maybe 4 max per game side per game.

There are dozens of decisions each match that each side could review and could have affected the outcomes. I far more worried about perception bias amongst referees. I'd love for them to objectively review all matches. I want consistency of decision makers over time. I not worried about perfection.

blackcanelion wrote:I've been listening to interviews with ex and current referees. Even the British ones have been horrified by world rugby's treatment of Joubert. One English international referee from the 80's said he used to get off the field quickly as he'd been assaulted on at least 3 occasions. I know we have that problem here at club level. My sons coach was a liability when it came to refs (it was embarrassing).

As much as I have trouble with refs, I think social media like here is the place to whinge, not at the game, and not by players, mainstream media or the administration immediately after the game. I think The likes of Gavin Hastings should have held off for at least 24 hours.

Back in those days though BC... fans rushed onto the pitch. Its not surprising. I haven't seen that in test rugby since the mid 90s.

All this bottle crap is a joke. He was centre field and immediately started running. Unless the thrower of a so called bottle had arms akin to Magnus van Magnusson I doubt it would have landed anywhere close. Its excuses.

The problem for Joubert is he literally ran away, ran away from the players, the public and the governing body. World rugby should be upset because his conduct was very poor. Had he stood up and said, looking back I made a mistake. I'm sorry but I don't have super slow mo vision and I couldn't go to the TMO and had to make a decision. Then would anyone argue? I doubt it.

Instead all we've had is silence... and that is why people are upset. Its unprofessional behaviour not fitting of an elite referee. His conduct and reputation in SA is impeccable but even in SA he has come up with a lot of stick. The only people who have defended him have been his own school alma mater, thats like saying oh well at least your mother thinks you're beautiful. Someone should have told him to man up, face the music and apologise.

Yeah you're probably right HoT (that doesn't look right). I think I used accidental wrong. The Scottish lad caught it so it's 'not' accidental? If he'd let the ball hit him and fall to the ground, that's accidental right? I'm thinking of ricochet situations like in the weekend where a ball flies into a players hands and he instinctively catches it. Happens a lot with high kicks and play restarts. It's a reaction. But you're right, a change could see some routing. Forget I mentioned it, I'm still a bit emotional and talking crazy talk.

At the time Joubert ran off the pitch he didn't know he had made a mistake as he didn't have hours of replays to go over.  So I don't know why he decided to run off - he should tell us.

If a captain at the end of a test match refused to shake hands with the opposition and officials we would be talking about bringing the game into disrepute and asking for explanations.  I don't see why that is different for the referee.

fa0019 wrote:

blackcanelion wrote:I've been listening to interviews with ex and current referees. Even the British ones have been horrified by world rugby's treatment of Joubert. One English international referee from the 80's said he used to get off the field quickly as he'd been assaulted on at least 3 occasions. I know we have that problem here at club level. My sons coach was a liability when it came to refs (it was embarrassing).

As much as I have trouble with refs, I think social media like here is the place to whinge, not at the game, and not by players, mainstream media or the administration immediately after the game. I think The likes of Gavin Hastings should have held off for at least 24 hours.

Back in those days though BC... fans rushed onto the pitch. Its not surprising. I haven't seen that in test rugby since the mid 90s.

All this bottle crap is a joke. He was centre field and immediately started running. Unless the thrower of a so called bottle had arms akin to Magnus van Magnusson I doubt it would have landed anywhere close. Its excuses.

The problem for Joubert is he literally ran away, ran away from the players, the public and the governing body. World rugby should be upset because his conduct was very poor. Had he stood up and said, looking back I made a mistake. I'm sorry but I don't have super slow mo vision and I couldn't go to the TMO and had to make a decision. Then would anyone argue? I doubt it.

Instead all we've had is silence... and that is why people are upset. Its unprofessional behaviour not fitting of an elite referee. His conduct and reputation in SA is impeccable but even in SA he has come up with a lot of stick. The only people who have defended him have been his own school alma mater, thats like saying oh well at least your mother thinks you're beautiful. Someone should have told him to man up, face the music and apologise.

People are upset because Scotland lost and they don't agree with the decisions the referee made. The fact that he ran off gives their psych a reason to back up what they already think. We don't know why he ran off. He may have had good reason. We haven't been told. As a rule we don't get told why referees do things during or after test matches.

The people I've heard aren't from his alma mater and they've got every reason to criticise him. We all do it, I'm as guilty as anyone. I agree with three mistakes people put forward. I don't believe in trial by media (I think this is a great place to offload though). We don't have evidence based assessments of referees, we have an emotional assessments, we are all worse of for it. How can actually improve in the long run if we can't describe what's going on, we can't show if referees are consistent and we can't describe how rule changes affect refereeing. For me that's the elephant in the room.

It is a stupid rule the accidental offside rule. Its been like that for years... only now given it (perhaps) cost Scotland a place in the SF has someone now got the anger to do something about it.... like the ELV project when England won the RWC!

Seriously in many ways I agree. People love the underdog story but AUS are not pantomine villians like ENG, SA or NZ are. I've seen referees interviewed post game before. Guys like Matt Dawson (probably one of the most fierce anti-scot players in past history) was outraged... why because it went against every ideal that the game is built on; respect and gamesmanship.

He may have had his reasons true... but thus far they aren't acceptable. Fictitious bottle throwing, needing the toilet... big enough to go against every protocol and level of manners we have in the game?
If it was personal reasons then he shouldn't have been refereeing in the match in the first place. It doesn't take more than 1 min to shake hands with players and walk off a pitch even to explain things to captains. They're pro players... not bar room drunks licking their lips to maim a vulnerable deer in the headlights.

The one thing world rugby should do is not throw him to the wolves, sit next to him and not make a big deal about it but simply have him give his account. Not do the talking for him because that simply makes out that he was influenced by others.

1) Whilst I'm totally gutted by the manner of defeat, I don't feel any animosity towards the man for the decision he made, in fact I feel sorry for him. He had to make a tricky call which he can't have been sure of. OK, for that reason you would think he could err on the side of caution but then he would be getting pelters from the Aussies (until it was confirmed that this is the right decision...). Calling him scum and a cheat helps nobody.

2) The rule in itself is rather strange. How was that a penalty yet the one earlier in the half where Russell caught the knock on deemed accidental and therefore a scrum? Laws say you can't use the TMO but nothing to stop the use of the big screen, or going off the rule sheet given practically everyone else has!

3) Maitland yellow was harsh but understandable. If an Aussie had done it then we would probably have been screaming for blood! HOWEVER if that is deemed worthy of the TMO butting in then the late hit on Hogg absolutely was. Timing it, Mitchell hit him 4 seconds after the kick. To claim that Mitchell was committed and couldn't have avoided it, I'm pretty sure even Usain Bolt could change direction by 2m over a 40m distance, let alone an agile rugby player in maybe 20m. It's not hugely different to Hogg's on Biggar...

Joubert could never have seen it given he was keeping up with the ball but the TMO absolutely could, but never said anything. Result - penalty (where the ball landed potentially?), possibly a YC, a further minute run down on the clock. Who knows. But the TMO should really have flagged it up.

4) World rugby have absolutely shafted Joubert. He really didn't do much wrong during that match apart from the final call - saying he was wrong is totally throwing him under the bus, with no mention of his TMO at all. However running off at the end, unless something genuine comes to light later on, was a poor judgement and does make him look bad.

Just imagine the world cup final is decided in such a manner?

I think NZ would go on immediate strike if it happened to them... lamb prices would go through the roof for starters!

LordDowlais wrote:Nigel Owens in my opinion is one of the worst refs around.

That is an outstanding opinion. Well done sir.

You mean semi-final fa0019?

ebop wrote:You mean semi-final fa0019?

Imaginary final ebop

Gavin Hastings is coming across as a real idiot in all this.

Cyril wrote:Gavin Hastings is coming across as a real idiot in all this.

Just because the man's opinion differs from yours?

As a pundit you have to be somewhat neutral. Baying for the mans blood is something you dont associate with someone in that profession, hopefully he calms down and retracts some of what he said in place of a review into the system as a whole.

I think WR could have been a lot more supportive in their statement. It would have been helpful if they had stressed that he made the right decision at the time, given that he had to make a decision on what he believed to have happened without any option of video review.
By merely stating the he made an error, after the benefit of multiple video replays, does feel like they are washing their hand of him. Very disappointing.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Cyril wrote:Gavin Hastings is coming across as a real idiot in all this.

Just because the man's opinion differs from yours?

Because of the manner in which he is expressing it.

Re World Rugby's rubbish statement. Does anyone think that this bunch of incompetent erse-wholes can get anything correct?    Their credibility, or what little credibility they ever had, is in tatters.   A pathetic bunch of self serving morons -very much like their wendyball equivalents in Switzerland.    

Joubert running off at the end happened because he knew he had fecked up and had been caught out.   By that act, in refusing to explain to the players in particular Scottish captain Gregg Laidlaw what had happened,was an act of total cowardice. I agree with Big Gav H -he is a disgrace and an embarrassment to rugby.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Re World Rugby's rubbish statement. Does anyone think that this bunch of incompetent erse-wholes can get anything correct?    Their credibility, or what little credibility they ever had, is in tatters.   A pathetic bunch of self serving morons -very much like their wendyball equivalents in Switzerland.    

Joubert running off at the end happened because he knew he had fecked up and had been caught out.   By that act, in refusing to explain to the players in particular Scottish captain Gregg Laidlaw what had happened,was an act of total cowardice.   I agree with Big Gav H -he is a disgrace and an embarrassment to rugby.

But what do you really think?