Champions Cup Pool 1: Saracens v Ulster, 16 January

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Saracens v Ulster Rugby
Saturday 16 January 2016
KO 15:15
Allianz Park, Barnet

Live on Sky Sports

Referee Jerome Garces (France)
Touch Judge 1: [tbc]
Touch Judge 2: [tbc]
Fourth Official: [tbc]
TMO: [tbc]
Assessor: [tbc]
Citing Commissioner: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

7 Played 7
6 Wins 1
1 Losses 6
0 Draws 0
175 Points 107

B. Tournament Form

Saracens
19/12/15 - Saracens 55 - 13 Oyonnax
13/12/15 - Oyonnax 10 - 45 Saracens
20/11/15 - Ulster 9 - 27 Saracens

Ulster Rugby
10/1/16 - Oyonnax 23 - 24 Ulster
20/12/15 - Toulouse 23 - 25 Ulster
11/12/15 - Ulster 38 - 0 Toulouse

C. Teams

Saracens

[tbc]

Ulster

[tbc]

Hard luck Ulster. Sarries are pretty hot this year.

Why are Ulster trying to play in the wrong areas!

Sarries can win this with how the French teams are looking.

Ian Humphreys some player!

Lol, which side was de kock on then!

How is that in at the side? The ball was out and the Sarries lads were basically trying to form a maul!!

Sarries just too good. Really gutted for Ulster as I was sure they would get a LBP at the least.

We have to get 5 points next week and see where that takes us. We probably need other results to go our way.

Notch wrote:We have to get 5 points next week and see where that takes us. We probably need other results to go our way.

After the two Toulouse results we got a little too confident. Based on last three games I'm not convinced we need the distraction that would come from sneaking through.
I know there are financial and marketing benefits but we probably don't deserve a QF. And we are at risk of having no Champions Cup next year with inconsistency galore.

clivemcl wrote:

Notch wrote:We have to get 5 points next week and see where that takes us. We probably need other results to go our way.

After the two Toulouse results we got a little too confident. Based on last three games I'm not convinced we need the distraction that would come from sneaking through.
I know there are financial and marketing benefits but we probably don't deserve a QF. And we are at risk of having no Champions Cup next year with inconsistency galore.

Deserve I don't know... benefit from it? Massively. Think our position in the Pro12 at the end of the season will be much more determined more by how we fare during the Six Nations than the distraction of one high-profile game which will be a massive net benefit to the province in terms of season ticket renewals/sales etc. as you say.

Think an emphatic win next week will give us a big boost going into that Six Nations period.

Should have been a forward who won man of the match. My pick would have been Jamie George.

Well it was always going to be a tough ask, and so it proved.

I won't offer congrats to Sarries, as I've little respect for them, especially with eye gouging thugs like Ashton in their side. What I will say though is that they are a top team in terms of performance, and probably the best in Europe right now.

Really sloppy play from us throughout the game, and some of the decision making needs looked at.

So, five points needed next week, and see what happens.

Munchkin wrote:I won't offer congrats to Sarries, as I've little respect for them, especially with eye gouging thugs like Ashton in their side. What I will say though is that they are a top team in terms of performance, and probably the best in Europe right now.

I can't endorse the first part of that comment at all I'm afraid Munchkin. It's probably going to make it kick off on this thread which up until now has been sportsmanlike and good-natured. I think that's a case of speaking out of hurt and I would appeal to others not to take the bait.

The second part is indisputable. Saracens rarely just beat times. They normally put them away comfortably. I think they created eight chances against us in two games- eight tries.

Eye-gouging? Steady on!

Cyril wrote:Eye-gouging? Steady on!

He gouged Marshall. Hope he gets a lengthy ban..

A bit gutted but not surprised. Saracens are some team and will be tough to beat this year.

Munchkin to be honest I have little respect for you if can't congratulate the better team on the day - whether you like them or not.

I don't like every aspect of Saracens. I can completely understand why someone like Ashton/ Farrell are hated but they are just 2 players.

They are obsessing over Farrell now with the commentators but his kicking today was laughably mediocre. The damage was done mostly by the forwards. Farrell did well today but the hype isn't good.

Munchkin wrote:

Cyril wrote:Eye-gouging? Steady on!

He gouged Marshall. Hope he gets a lengthy ban..

No he didn't, and no he won't.

I suggest you take Notch's advice and be a little more gracious. Up to you though.

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I won't offer congrats to Sarries, as I've little respect for them, especially with eye gouging thugs like Ashton in their side. What I will say though is that they are a top team in terms of performance, and probably the best in Europe right now.

I can't endorse the first part of that comment at all I'm afraid Munchkin. It's probably going to make it kick off on this thread which up until now has been sportsmanlike and good-natured. I think that's a case of speaking out of hurt and I would appeal to others not to take the bait.

The second part is indisputable. Saracens rarely just beat times. They normally put them away comfortably. I think they created eight chances against us in two games- eight tries.

I'm not hurt about the result. I expected us to be beat. I might be a bit angry at Ashton though. Gouging is something I feel very strongly about.

Fair point about the thread being good natured, Completely wrong that I'm laying bait, and you had no need to make the accusation.

Anyway, I will leave you all to it.

Laters

Cyril wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Cyril wrote:Eye-gouging? Steady on!

He gouged Marshall. Hope he gets a lengthy ban..

No he didn't, and no he won't.

I suggest you take Notch's advice and be a little more gracious. Up to you though.

Away and stick your head where the sun don't shine. You are one of the biggest trolls on the Ulster forum, so don't play the hypocrite.

That's enough from me.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Saracens are some team and will be tough to beat this year.

Yeah, I think they could beat anybodyat the moment. They playing some cracking running rugby at times, as well as the forwards game. Really good skill levels and handling among the forwards too.

I think we could see a Sarries v Racing final depending how it goes.

Munchkin wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Cyril wrote:Eye-gouging? Steady on!

He gouged Marshall. Hope he gets a lengthy ban..

No he didn't, and no he won't.

I suggest you take Notch's advice and be a little more gracious. Up to you though.

Away and stick your head where the sun don't shine. You are one of the biggest trolls on the Ulster forum, so don't play the hypocrite.

That's enough from me.

This is the Sarries v Ulster match thread. You're the one lowering the tone with unwarranted accusations.

beshocked wrote:Munchkin to be honest I have little respect for you if can't congratulate the better team on the day - whether you like them or not.

I don't like every aspect of Saracens. I can completely understand why someone like Ashton/ Farrell are hated but they are just 2 players.

They are obsessing over Farrell now with the commentators but his kicking today was laughably mediocre. The damage was done mostly by the forwards. Farrell did well today but the hype isn't good.

How has his kicking been the rest of the season? It was strange, he looked threatening with ball in hand and weak kicking at goal. The opposite of what I would expect from him generally.

Cyril wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Saracens are some team and will be tough to beat this year.

Yeah, I think they could beat anybodyat the moment. They playing some cracking running rugby at times, as well as the forwards game. Really good skill levels and handling among the forwards too.

I think we could see a Sarries v Racing final depending how it goes.

They seem to have the right formula nowadays. Dominant up front as always and now threatening out wide. Ulster are trying the latter without the former and it doesn't work. Cliche but true, the game is won by the forwards and the backs decide by how much.

Prime opportunity to ask Brian O Driscoll about McCloskey and Luke Marshall for Ireland. But oh no. All about Sarries.

Munchkin wrote:

Cyril wrote:Eye-gouging? Steady on!

He gouged Marshall. Hope he gets a lengthy ban..

Personally I did not see a gouge but the roll out by the neck was easily a yellow card offence.

The worrying thing is... We are supposedly signing a number 8 who will only replace our current Williams. May well be a step up in talent. But the real problem in forwards is the depth. And the fall off in talent.
So even if we sign ' a Pocock'. We are still only a few injuries away from being very weak.

Rory Gallagher not sure about his kicking percentages but I think his kicking from what I have seen has been good.

Clivemcl not that surprising as Sarries won and were at home. I agree that sometimes it's unfair when coverage is one sided.

Agree about forwards being the key.

Ulster scored a really nice opening try but lacked the forward platform.

They said that Ulster had a few injuries in the forwards, definitely doesn't help.

That was a full strength Sarries pack.

Eddie will be pleased. George, Itoje and B. Vunipola all put in really strong performances in the pack, and Mako scrummaged strongly. Kruis was pretty decent too, and showed no ill effect from his concussion. Farrell I thought controlled the game really well at FH, lovely break to set up the try, but also some really nice range of passing. Kicking from the tee was surprisingly off, but not too worried about that.

Well done to Saracens, totally dominant and looked after garnering the bonus that they could (maybe should) have put 50 on Ulster. It is telling that they can have Kelly Brown not even in the squad, and Ulster have to play UBL standard backrows. Same thing happened last year and is likely to continue to happen for the foreseeable.
Ulster scrum was OK but the lineout was a shambles - worrying for Rory and probably Joe.

While I can understand where Clive is coming from, there is no chance Ulster won't put a full strength team out against Oyonnax. The Munster and Bordeaux results have helped Ulster's chances of qualification but even if they do qualify they simply don't have the depth to go further.
I disagree with Munchkin that Ashton gouged Marshall but there is no doubt that his hand was across Luke's face and therefore his fingers were in the eye area. Players have been cited and banned for similar in the past.

It was also annoying that Saracens were offside ahead of the kicker throughout the game - a different ref. will not let them away with that. Saracens will stand a chance in the competition because of their pack and half backs, but if they come up against a similarly powered pack they may be found wanting in the backline. Good luck to McCall - the only Ulsterman to win today!

Very good from Sarries, especially pleasing to see all the players in the new EPS have good games.

Saracens are probably the best club side in Europe at the moment and if there ever was a year for them to win it,  this should be the one.

Unfortunately until the truth about the salary cap shenanigans come out (and maybe Saracens were innocents in it all) then any success they have is tainted with dirty money and cheating.

Sarries and Racing are definitely the top 2. Clermont and Toulon aren't far behind. Too bad for Ulster but they're still a good team. This has been an unusually bad year for the Irish but I think they'll be better next season.

Very disappointing second half. Failure to be clinical in the first half when we had scoring positions really cost us.

No doubt sarries are the real deal and very hard to beat over 80min - they are so relentless and physical.

Some positives by Ulster - we scored one great try and could have scored more which is no mean feat against Saracens. I don't think we are in a bad place but have slipped off the level needed to be real contenders but don't think the gap is that much.

McCloskey again had a big game and Payne looked sharp. Unfortunately the pack were ground down over the 80min which isn't completely surprising. Probably we need to be a bit smarter with the running lines.

Not sure we will qualify now and failure to pick up another couple of points may cost us.

One Ulsterman, Mark McCall, was happy on Saturday.

For those who know better then me:
1. How much of Saracens success is down to him?

2. Do you ever think we will see him back in Ireland (working I mean, not visiting his gran)?

rodders personally I just feel that you had a lack of possession and territory in the 80 minutes. Hard to score points if you have few opportunities. I actually thought that 17 points was a good haul on that basis. Good try too but the backs starved of ball meant few opportunities.

In contrast I thought Saracens were quite wasteful in the first half though that try before half time was just what was needed. Farrell had a poor day with the boot too which is uncharacteristic.

Sarries are definitely a 80 minute side, it helped that they could take off George who I thought played really well and bring on Brits who really had a positive impact too.

rapidsnowman

1.He's a good DOR but he has a very strong squad, excellent subordinates like Gustard,Sanderson and Sorrell. He's obviously got something about him because he helped Ulster win the Celtic league and is doing well with Sarries. He should take a nice bit of the credit but it's about the whole package. When you can sign the likes of the Vunipola bros,Hodgson,Ashton etc it helpes. When the academy is performing well it's nice. The team has evolved in the last 7 years. Moving from a SA core to an English academy core.

Mccall is also a DOR who speaks frank and honest but doesn't court controversy like Venter did. Saracens are playing a better brand of rugby than under Venter. It does help that Saracens have an artificial pitch too.

Saracens have also gone from playing in Vicarage Road which IMO is not very nice to their own stadium, helps boost morale when a team plays in their own home.

You need a strong structure in place and Saracens are starting to get that. Still room for improvement but compared to 10 years ago are in a much better position.

2. I think he'll be the next Ireland coach after Schmidt if he can pick up some more silverware with Saracens.

beshocked wrote:
In contrast I thought Saracens were quite wasteful in the first half though that try before half time was just what was needed. Farrell had a poor day with the boot too which is uncharacteristic.

Hmm. While excellent in the second half, where Sarries pack really dominated, balance of play was even in the first half and to describe Saracens as wasteful is, imo, inaccurate. also what you mean is Farrell had a poor day from the tee, not with the boot. His kicking from hand was good, and much better than we have seen from him in previous seasons.

For me Saracens were much like Ali and rope-a-dope in the first half. Expended minimum energy in letting Ulster run out of steam.

Londontiger I haven't seen the territory and possession stats in the first half but it would surprise me if Saracens weren't comfortably up in both categories.

Saracens were wasteful. Just 6 points till the try before half time. I thought Farrell's kicking from hand was okay but nothing special.

I did see the points scored in the opposition's 22 stats and Ulster were proportionally more accurate, just less opportunities.

Sarries set piece was dominant in the first half. Ulster's momentum was stifled by this.

Thanks beshocked.

The half time possession and territory stats reflect the half time scoreline.

beshocked wrote:rodders personally I just feel that you had a lack of possession and territory in the 80 minutes. Hard to score points if you have few opportunities. I actually thought that 17 points was a good haul on that basis. Good try too but the backs starved of ball meant few opportunities.

I think Ulster were unlucky on one occasion when they had a lineout 5 yards out, Diacks arm was pulled away and ref gave a nock on against him which was the wrong call but went with Garces performance

marty2086 wrote:

beshocked wrote:rodders personally I just feel that you had a lack of possession and territory in the 80 minutes. Hard to score points if you have few opportunities. I actually thought that 17 points was a good haul on that basis. Good try too but the backs starved of ball meant few opportunities.

I think Ulster were unlucky on one occasion when they had a lineout 5 yards out, Diacks arm was pulled away and ref gave a nock on against him which was the wrong call but went with Garces performance

Swings and roundabouts some of Best's lineout throwing was not straight - at least 2. Even then one was almost snaffled by a Sarries jumper despite the ball being clearly thrown on the Ulster side. I think one was too.

Best had a shocker at lineout time.

beshocked wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

beshocked wrote:rodders personally I just feel that you had a lack of possession and territory in the 80 minutes. Hard to score points if you have few opportunities. I actually thought that 17 points was a good haul on that basis. Good try too but the backs starved of ball meant few opportunities.

I think Ulster were unlucky on one occasion when they had a lineout 5 yards out, Diacks arm was pulled away and ref gave a nock on against him which was the wrong call but went with Garces performance

Swings and roundabouts some of Best's lineout throwing was not straight - at least 2. Even then one was almost snaffled by a Sarries jumper despite the ball being clearly thrown on the Ulster side. I think one was too.

Best had a shocker at lineout time.

Yeah this one was early on, could have contributed to his mindset but just thought some of Garces decisions were poor especially bodies flying into rucks and Ashtons attempt at decapitation

Hard to argue with that beshocked.

I do feel if we had of managed to stretch the lead it might have been been a different game.

In the second half we barely got out of our own half and really started losing the collisions and set piece.

Sarries also looked sharper in attack, and with the kicking game, so we were second best in every department really, which is tough to take but don't think we are a million miles off and have plenty of good players to come back.

Its swings and roundabouts, Farrell missed a few kicks so the scoreline flattered us really.

rodders wrote:
Its swings and roundabouts, Farrell missed a few kicks so the scoreline flattered us really.

Yes he missed a few kicks, most he would expect to get, but the rest of hi splay contributed more than the points lost off the tee. I really think that was the best i have seen Farrell play - in fact shave his head and you could have thought Hodgson was out there so good was Farrell's passing this week.

Yup - he's playing a lot better than Ford, which I couldn't have imagined a few months ago.

Maybe his Da getting the elbow made him release he'd have to earn a spot for England!

Definitely agree re. Farrell. It was as complete a display as you'll see from a 10. It's some consolation we lost to the best team at the moment, but its still disappointing we weren't more accurate in certain areas.

We didn't give them anything cheaply and they still converted almost every opportunity that came their way. Keep their nerve and they will win silverware of some description. Ulster still way back in the maybe category.

Oh and I would say that Ashton was pretty lucky not to get a YC. I don't think he gouged him or tried to decapitate his opposite number but it was unnecessary stupidity and sadly he has a tendency to do that.

Him and Farrell need to sort out their discipline and technique as they are two Saracens players who I would say are the highest card risk after Rhys Gill of course.

Though saying that I thought Ashton's workrate was good.

Notch I don't think they converted every opportunity but I feel like Saracens are a patient side who will eventually get in one blow then not let go. I would say that Saracens in the last few years have worked on their power game which they need to take on French sides.

Team that got thumped - 3-22 in 2012 by Clermont vs the team that beat Ulster 33-17

Saracens: Goode; Strettle, Farrell, B Barritt, Wyles; Hodgson, Wigglesworth; Gill, Brits, Stevens, Borthwick, Botha, Melck, Fraser, Joubert.

Replacements: Short for Farrell (55), Powell for Wyles (69), De Kock for Wigglesworth (55), Vunipola for Gill (60), Nieto for Stevens (69), Kruis for Botha (55), Wray for Melck (51), George for Fraser (67).


Saracens: Ransom, Ashton, Bosch, Barritt, Wyles, Farrell, Wigglesworth, M. Vunipola, George, du Plessis, Itoje, Kruis, Rhodes, Fraser, B. Vunipola.

Replacements: Hodgson for Ransom (61), de Kock for Wigglesworth (63), Barrington for M. Vunipola (65), Brits for George (56), Figallo for du Plessis (56), Wray for Fraser (63).

Ashton cited:

https://www.606v2.com/t61872-this-weekend-s-citings

beshocked wrote:Oh and I would say that Ashton was pretty lucky not to get a YC. I don't think he gouged him or tried to decapitate his opposite number but it was unnecessary stupidity and sadly he has a tendency to do that.

His hand did rake across Marshalls face and eyes and there was enough evidence for a red though its not like Garces is a ref who shows reactionary reds